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Is the cost of living really that high in 2009 ?

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13

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    #62
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Remember this post from jimmmy?
    If you are quoting please have the courtesy to use the complete sentence . ...which was " This is not a public sector bashing thread, heavens no : I am just using the c.s.o. statistic for their wages, as they would dispute the wages for private sector, and they would say they are higher if anything "


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    #63
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    If you are quoting please have the courtesy to use the complete sentence . ...which was " This is not a public sector bashing thread, heavens no : I am just using the c.s.o. statistic for their wages, as they would dispute the wages for private sector, and they would say they are higher if anything "

    I quoted the relevant bit. You are bashing the public service in this thread.


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    #64
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Its best to show the cost of living in terms of average pay. You show me statistics for average pay from the private sector so - no doubt if I did you would dispute them.;) Do you not accept many things were never cheaper, in terms of peoples incomes ? You, PBreatnach, on your nice guaranteed public service pension, can probably buy more for that than other similar public servants in history or abroad, can you not ? Or are you crying poverty ?


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    #65
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Its best to show the cost of living in terms of average pay. You show me statistics for average pay from the private sector so - no doubt if I did you would dispute them.;) Do you not accept many things were never cheaper, in terms of peoples incomes ? You, PBreatnach, on your nice guaranteed public service pension, can probably buy more for that than other similar public servants in history or abroad, can you not ? Or are you crying poverty ?

    Not only are you attempting to bash the public service under a shoddy cover, you are now getting personal. That's not nice.


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    #66
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    He does have a point.

    Average PS wage of 49k means that person can afford any cost of living issues more than a person on the private sector average wage of 38k.

    It ain't fair and taxpayers who have suffered through tax rises shouldnt have to shoulder the disproportionate burden of it.


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    #67
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    OK Pbreatnach, ,apologies if I embarassed you by mentioning your public service pension, but you did mention yourself before you are a retired public servant , so I will phrase it differently : do you not think a weeks average Irish earnings today ( as confirmed by the statistics the CSO did release ) buys more than it did 20 or 50 years ago....and also more than the average earnings in most countries abroad ?


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    #68
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    OK Pbreatnach, ,apologies if I embarassed you by mentioning your public service pension, but you did mention yourself before you are a retired public servant ,

    I'm not embarrassed; I'm outraged that you take a general issue and personalise it on me.
    so I will phrase it differently : do you not think a weeks average Irish earnings today ( as confirmed by the statistics the CSO did release ) buys more than it did 20 or 50 years ago....

    That's glaringly obvious, and there is no need to link it to PS pay; it's true for all categories of income. It's easy enough to find CSO statistics on pay rates, prices, and purchasing power over the years. Try doing a little work on it. Here's your starting point: http://www.cso.ie/
    and also more than the average earnings in most countries abroad ?

    That's less obvious, if you consider people's incomes in terms of purchasing power rather than raw pay rates. If you want people to believe you contention, produce your evidence.


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    #69
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    That's glaringly obvious, and there is no need to link it to PS pay; it's true for all categories of income. It's easy enough to find CSO statistics on pay rates, prices, and purchasing power over the years. Try doing a little work on it. Here's your starting point: http://www.cso.ie/

    I did indeed produce statistics from that very sourse - the cso - on private sector pay before, but public service posters shot them down. As I said before, you show me statistics for average pay from the private sector - no doubt if I did so again you would dispute them. What is indisputable is public sector pay, and the cso do have statistics for that. That is what is therefore used.


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    #70
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I did indeed produce statistics from that very sourse - the cso - on private sector pay before, but public service posters shot them down. As I said before, you show me statistics for average pay from the private sector - no doubt if I did so again you would dispute them. What is indisputable is public sector pay, and the cso do have statistics for that. That is what is therefore used.

    I don't dispute CSO data when it is fairly presented.


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    #71
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I don't dispute CSO data when it is fairly presented.
    I do not think you read what I wrote. "I did indeed produce statistics from that very sourse - the cso - on private sector pay before, but public service posters shot them down. As I said before, you show me statistics for average pay from the private sector - no doubt if I did so again you would dispute them. What is indisputable is public sector pay, and the cso do have statistics for that. That is what is therefore used.". CSO statistics on private sector pay is that - cso statistics on private sector pay. A fact is a fact - it does not matter how it is presented. You may only prefer the facts which suit your argument. What is clearer than private sector pay is public sector pay - the cso seems to know more about that. That is why that comparable was used. Even if Irish public sector pay was not the highest known public sector pay in the world, I would still have used it, as it is the definitive statistic on the pay of a wide group of almost 400,000 people from this country.


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    #72
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I do not think you read what I wrote. "I did indeed produce statistics from that very sourse - the cso - on private sector pay before, but public service posters shot them down. As I said before, you show me statistics for average pay from the private sector - no doubt if I did so again you would dispute them..."

    I read what you wrote, and have highlighted the bit that prompted my response.


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    #73
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Fine...as you did not accept the statistics on private sector pay ( presumably because they were so much less than public sector pay, unlike the situation in other countries , just like all other statistics on private sector pay in this country ) earnings can therefore be based on the public sector, as the cso has info on them which is undisputed.


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    #74
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    gurramok wrote: »
    He does have a point.

    Average PS wage of 49k means that person can afford any cost of living issues more than a person on the private sector average wage of 38k.

    It ain't fair and taxpayers who have suffered through tax rises shouldnt have to shoulder the disproportionate burden of it.


    His basic point is quite a simple on but its being distorted to bash the public sector..

    Basically his point is that someone on €49k is better off than €38k...which is accurate when comparing two similar people but is simplistic as it does not take into account personal circumstances such as mortgage, kids etc...

    However, a continuing theme is that Public Sector Workers earn more than Private Sector workers....but this is not backed up with real evidence from jimmy...

    ...obviously SOME Public Sector workers earn more than SOME Private Sector workers and vice versa.....but the attempted use of the average wages by jimmy distorts reality....in effect average wages don't really mean much....for every Top level Public Sector Manager on €250,000 there's a Private Company CEO on millions etc

    There are thousands of Public Sector workers who get paid less than the average wage jimmy like to use.....

    how many burgers can Michael O'Leary or a Bank CEO buy on a weeks wages?

    what does it matter?


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    #75
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Fine...as you did not accept the statistics on private sector pay ( presumably because they were so much less than public sector pay, unlike the situation in other countries , just like all other statistics on private sector pay in this country ) earnings can therefore be based on the public sector, as the cso has info on them which is undisputed.

    Where have I refused to accept statistics on private sector pay?

    Are you referring to the fact that I said that average industrial wage was not a meaningful comparator?


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    #76
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    In order to accurately compare wages, you'd need to do so for the same job roles in private and public sector wouldn't you?

    As there are obviously more people in the private sector earning minimum wage since there are more people in the private sector. A lot of people running their own business aren't on CEO wages either but would be running their own companies, they just aren't very successful companies so there are many things that distort the figures making a direct comparison on overall averages inaccurate.

    Most job sites have the wage bands for job roles on them and the public sector has its pay bands for each level so a good starting point might be to compare these and see how they relate to each other. It would be a lot of work though especially if you wanted to do it or every job role and some might not have comparisons. Overall it could still be inaccurate as people in the same job role can still have different responsibilities which changes what they earn.


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    #77
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    However, a continuing theme is that Public Sector Workers earn more than Private Sector workers....but this is not backed up with real evidence from jimmy...

    I have seen dozens of different reports and surveys over the past few years comparing the two....here is the last one http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1749381.html


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    #78
    Dr Galen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    do you have a link to the actual paper Jimmmy? not the Indo paraphrased version


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    #79
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I have seen dozens of different reports and surveys over the past few years comparing the two....here is the last one http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1749381.html

    jimmmy, thats the Indo stating a figure ( I am presuming its average industrial wage but it may not be and I would not accept that as a valid comparator)...it does not clarify where they got it or what it refers to .... which is exactly my point....private sector pay is extremely hard to identify accurately while public sector pay information is published

    care to discuss the rest of my post?


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    #80
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    Basically his point is that someone on €49k is better off than €38k...which is accurate when comparing two similar people but is simplistic as it does not take into account personal circumstances such as mortgage, kids etc...

    Both public and private sector workers have varying circumstances....some have kids, some do not : some have mortgages, some do not, from both sectors. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrell now if you are trying to cloud the water with that pathetic excuse.

    Riskymove wrote: »
    However, a continuing theme is that Public Sector Workers earn more than Private Sector workers....but this is not backed up with real evidence from jimmy...

    No...it was backed up by evidence from the cso, which I produced once, , but of course some public servants cribbed it did not include private sector overtime etc. lol. Dozens of different reports over the last few years all conclude that public sector pay is 20% or more higher than private sector pay. The original posters reference from the newspaper economists research is only the latest report.

    Riskymove wrote: »
    There are thousands of Public Sector workers who get paid less than the average wage jimmy like to use.....

    I do not "like" to use the 966 average pay the cso says is the average p.s. weekly wage. Like many people in this country, I would much prefer to see a situation where p.s. wages were more in line with both other countries p.s. wages, and private sector wages....in fact in most countries private sector wages are higher than p.s. sector wages, as results of surveys on threads on this board have shown.

    Of course there are "There are thousands of Public Sector workers who get paid less than the average wage ".... thats how averages work.....do you not understand that ? ;)
    Riskymove wrote: »
    how many burgers can Michael O'Leary or a Bank CEO buy on a weeks wages?
    Its more useful to talk about averages of 300,000 plus people than one of two exceptional people from a workforce of 1,800,000 people.....if you think you can earn more than Mr.O'Leary why do you not set up a company as successful as Ryanair....the market will dictate how much you earn.....the country could do with more people like him, who has expanded his business in to one of Europes most successful airlines, if not companies over the years.....and now people can fly abroad for peanuts compared to the hundreds of pounds I remember having to pay Air Lingus in the early eighties.


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    #81
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Both public and private sector workers have varying circumstances....some have kids, some do not : some have mortgages, some do not, from both sectors. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrell now if you are trying to cloud the water with that pathetic excuse.

    My point jimmy is that your thread seems to be about what you could buy if you earned €49k gross pay...you could just as easy ask what you could buy on avg industrial wage or on welfare payments or if you were a multi-millionaire etc.....nothing more

    No...it was backed up by evidence from the cso, which I produced once, , but of course some public servants cribbed it did not include private sector overtime etc. lol. Dozens of different reports over the last few years all conclude that public sector pay is 20% or more higher than private sector pay. The original posters reference from the newspaper economists research is only the latest report.

    I meant there is little evidence to prove the difference in pay levels you claim...the cso has an amount for average public sector wage because such info is publically available, its info on private sector wages is less solid and therefore much harder to acurately show the difference between public sector and private sector pay

    I have also read the latest report from Tony Foley...have you?...it doesn't go into average wages comparisons at all.
    I do not "like" to use the 966 average pay the cso says is the average p.s. weekly wage. Like many people in this country, I would much prefer to see a situation where p.s. wages were more in line with both other countries p.s. wages, and private sector wages....in fact in most countries private sector wages are higher than p.s. sector wages, as results of surveys on threads on this board have shown.

    I disagree about public sector pay being in line with other countries, countries are different with many differing structures and systems, I would not like to see private sector pay forced into line with other countries..would you?


    as for "in line with private sector" I would have no problem with public sector pay being in line with "similar" jobs in private sector. But I do not agree that average industrial wage is the right comparator.

    Of course there are "There are thousands of Public Sector workers who get paid less than the average wage ".... thats how averages work.....do you not understand that ? ;)


    Its more useful to talk about averages of 300,000 plus people than one of two exceptional people from a workforce of 1,800,000 people.....if you think you can earn more than Mr.O'Leary why do you not set up a company as successful as Ryanair....the market will dictate how much you earn.....the country could do with more people like him, who has expanded his business in to one of Europes most successful airlines, if not companies over the years.....and now people can fly abroad for peanuts compared to the hundreds of pounds I remember having to pay Air Lingus in the early eighties.

    I don't think such high paid people are that exceptional in the 1.8m workforce jimmy (although few are like Mr O'Leary, I'll grant you that, even if he didn't actually set up any airline!) there are many high level managers (and IBEC personnel for example) whose wages are not recorded in any cso averages etc and my point was that we could just as easily talk about what the cost of living was like for a CEO as for someone on €49 but I think you know that


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    #82
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I disagree about public sector pay being in line with other countries,
    So you think the Irish taxpayer should continue paying our public service the highest pay + pensions in Europe, if not the world. Do you not feel guilty burdening our children + grandchildren, for the relatively short term greedy gain of public sector workers ?


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I don't think such high paid people are that exceptional in the 1.8m workforce jimmy
    How many of the 1800,000 people in the private sector are there who earn as much as Mr. O'Leary, do you think ? And is his job as secure or guaranteed as the average public sector job ?

    Riskymove wrote: »
    (although few are like Mr O'Leary, I'll grant you that, even if he didn't actually set up any airline!)
    He was responsible for most of its expansion and success since the days when it was a really small struggling airline in the late 80's. If you think you can do as well or better, why do you not set up a business, and operate airline hubs out of Rome + the other European centres like Ryanair does ? How many of the 1800,000 people in the private sector are there who earn as much as Mr. O'Leary, do you think ? And is his job as secure or guaranteed as the average public sector job ?
    Riskymove wrote: »
    my point was that we could just as easily talk about what the cost of living was like for a CEO as for someone on €49 but I think you know that

    you mean the € 49000 or € 50000 , not € 49 ?

    Many ceo's / businesspeople have lost millions this last year or two. For every top businessman who earned millions during the tiger there are thousands of people in business now who are earning less than the average industrial wage, and some of whom are not entitled to the dole even. Thats why is better to talk about the statistical average of the 300,000 plus people paid by the public purse. Our hyper efficient c.s.o. knows their figures - it is not too efficient at knowing the figures from the private sector.


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    #83
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    ah jimmmy...your last post is dissapointing even for you...did you get out of the wrong side of the bed?

    I think we should have a public sector and that needs to be paid for, by me now and our children and for generations.

    It should be far more efficient than it is and public sector managers should be allowed manage properly...those not being productive should be challenged and sacked if dont shape up. Sectors such as health and education need to be examined closely and re-structured (HSE in particular). I assure you that me and many of my peers are very frustrated by the issue of under (and indeed non-) performance in the public sector...but we should not be all tarred with the same brush.

    I (as well as the CSO) have no idea how many people earn what Michael O'Leary does and indeed how much many others in the private sector earns...thats why i stand over my points about trying to compare public to private pay...its simply not accurately presented


    as for my typo in leaving out a "k" I apologise most sincerley for any offence. I am sure someone as thorough and accurate as you has never made such an error:rolleyes:


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    #84
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I think we should have a public sector and that needs to be paid for, by me now and our children and for generations.
    We all know that, but do you think the Irish taxpayer should continue paying our public service the highest pay + pensions in Europe, if not the world. Do you not feel guilty burdening our children + grandchildren, for the relatively short term greedy gain of public sector workers ?


    Riskymove wrote: »
    I (as well as the CSO) have no idea how many people earn what Michael O'Leary does and indeed how much many others in the private sector earns...thats why i stand over my points about trying to compare public to private pay...its simply not accurately presented

    As I asked , how many of the 1800,000 people in the private sector are there who earn as much as Mr. O'Leary, do you think ? And is his job as secure or guaranteed as the average public sector job ? And even if there are 5 or 50 Michael O'Learys in the country, what do you think is the average pay of the rest of the Private sector ? Have you ever met Mr. O'Leary, whom you refer to ? I am sure you have met thousands upon tens of thousands of other private sector workers in your lifetime...people like shop workers, restaurant and hotel workers, factory and workshop workers, tradespeople, farmers, salespeople etc....


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    #85
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    We all know that, but do you think the Irish taxpayer should continue paying our public service the highest pay + pensions in Europe, if not the world. Do you not feel guilty burdening our children + grandchildren, for the relatively short term greedy gain of public sector workers ?


    As I asked , how many of the 1800,000 people in the private sector are there who earn as much as Mr. O'Leary, do you think ? And is his job as secure or guaranteed as the average public sector job ? And even if there are 5 or 50 Michael O'Learys in the country, what do you think is the average pay of the rest of the Private sector ? Have you ever met Mr. O'Leary, whom you refer to ? I am sure you have met thousands upon tens of thousands of other private sector workers in your lifetime...people like shop workers, restaurant and hotel workers, factory and workshop workers, tradespeople, farmers, salespeople etc....

    jimmmy...what are you going on about now?:eek:

    if anyone should be guilty about burdening taxpayers...its the politicians who oversaw the situation...not individual people getting on with their lives

    as I said none of us know how many people earn what Michael O'Leary does as (a) we don't know what he earns and (b) we dont know what most other people in the private sector earn and therefore certain people can just be happy in their unbalanced views.

    while I don't see what the relevance of job security is to a thread supposedly about the cost of living rather than public sector bashing (heavens no) I'd say O'Leary is fairly secure but not as secure as a public sector worker!!:rolleyes:

    I am sure you have met plenty of public service workers in your time too...teachers, nurses, binmen, litter wardens, pothole fillers etc but whats that got to do with anything?


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    #86
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    So you think the Irish taxpayer should continue paying our public service the highest pay + pensions in Europe, if not the world. Do you not feel guilty burdening our children + grandchildren, for the relatively short term greedy gain of public sector workers ? ...

    Remember this, jimmmy?
    ...This is not a public sector bashing thread, heavens no...


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    #87
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    as I said none of us know how many people earn what Michael O'Leary does as (a) we don't know what he earns and (b) we dont know what most other people in the private sector earn and therefore certain people can just be happy in their unbalanced views.

    I think Michael O'Learys pay is known ; you can check it out as it is disclosed in the accounts of Ryanair plc. Good luck to him ; he can earn as much as he can because without people like him Ryanair would not be where it is, and if you do not want like him or do not want to pay him anything then do not fly with his airline ! Simple as that. That is how the free market works. We do know what most people in the private sector earn, because the cso produces statistics for that....that after all is their job, is it not ? Income tax receipts also show cso statistics are not wildly inaccurate. Why mention Michael O'Leary when its possible to use the statistics on the average pay of a large diversified group of 300,000 plus workers ? As I said before, we could use the statistics on the 1,800,000 peoople from the private sector but the average pay there may be less certain / more open to debate as admitted by yourself.

    To get back to the point of the thread, is the cost of living really that high in 2009 ( in terms of what a weekly wage buys )?


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    #88
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    To get back to the point of the thread, is the cost of living really that high in 2009 ( in terms of what a weekly wage buys )?


    I wish we could...but you insist on going on about public sector pay

    as I have said this thread is about how you could get by on €49k a year

    a pretty pointless thread


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    #89
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    if you do not want like him or do not want to pay him anything then do not fly with his airline ! Simple as that.


    how on earth have you managed to decide I dont like him or his airline?


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    #90
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »
    as I have said this thread is about how you could get by on €49k a year
    Its about the cost of living, relative to what a 2009 pay packet will buy. There is no point in comparing the cost of living nowadays with what " say" a 1960's pay packet will buy. While most people in the country do not earn the 49 or 50 k a year which is the average gross salary in the public service, it puts things in perspective. I remember the days when 10 or 15 k a year was the average salary, and how much many things were then. I think the cost of living has come down in real terms, because people can afford more luxuries ( things which were not plentiful decades ago ) now.


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    #91
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Its about the cost of living, relative to what a 2009 pay packet will buy. There is no point in comparing the cost of living nowadays with what " say" a 1960's pay packet will buy. While most people in the country do not earn the 49 or 50 k a year which is the average gross salary in the public service, it puts things in perspective. I remember the days when 10 or 15 k a year was the average salary, and how much many things were then. I think the cost of living has come down in real terms, because people can afford more luxuries ( things which were not plentiful decades ago ) now.

    jimmmy, I think you know well you could have sought a discussion on such matters without mentioning the public sector average gross wage and to pretend that it was anything more than a dig at public sector is a joke


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