Cruyff Slams English Model

Warper

Just read there in The Irish Times that Cruyff is stirring things up a bit before the CL final next week. He slammed the buying policy of the PL especially the top 4. Saying they buy too many foreign players and do not have enough homegrown talent which is detrimental to England. Rather strangely he said it even increases child trafficking. He recommends a 6-5 system with 6 homegrown players on every team.

Pep Guardiola could field as many as eight products of the club’s youth system with goalkeeper Victor Valdes, defenders Gerard Pique and Carles Puyol, midfielders Xavi Hernandez, Andres Iniesta and Sergi Busquets and forwards Lionel Messi and Bojan Krkic all coming through La Masia —the club’s famous school of excellence. 5 of these are Catalan.

Helix

i thought hed gotten his leg up on naomi campbell

misleading title

Xavi6

And there was me thinkin poor Kate Moss was getting another slating.

Ardscoil Ris

Man Utd could field nearly eight English players as well.

Strong words coming from a Dutch man playing his trade in Spain. I've lost a bit of respect for him now.

invincibleirish

Bit rich coming from a Dutchman who as a player was bought for megabucks by Barca, and who then managed Barca and bought more foreign players for cashmoney

M5

Terrible model alright, sure its not as if there were 3 English teams in the last 4 in the premier European competition.........:rolleyes:

joe123

M5 wrote: »

Terrible model alright, sure its not as if there were 3 English teams in the last 4 in the premier European competition.........:rolleyes:

Its not the point hes making though. Hes saying that the english sides are made up of foreigners where with Barca they have a load from their youth setup/spanish.

Mr Alan

Messi was hardly born in the shadow of Camp Nou in fairness.

*edited for Opr.

opr

Mr Alan wrote: »

Messi hardly grew in the shadow of Camp Nou in fairness.

13 ?

Opr

Mitch Connor

opr wrote: »

13 ?

Opr

and then that would be the child trafficing. Also, pique wouldn't count as home grown under the rules are far as i know. He wasn't selectable for three uninterupted years between the ages me 15 and 21

M5

joe123 wrote: »

Its not the point hes making though. Hes saying that the english sides are made up of foreigners where with Barca they have a load from their youth setup/spanish.

Of course, but one of the few ways he can have a dig...

Highsider

He's right ya know

CHD

Former Pro's need to shut up.

jaykay74

some context.

The former Barcelona player and coach, who acts an adviser to the president, Joan Laporta..... blah blah blah....

thanks for your objective opinion Johan.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0519/1224246881156.html

PHB

Is he?

Victor Valdes - No goalie from United
Pique - Johnny Evans
Puyol - Wes Brown
Xavi Hernandez - Paul Scholes
Andres Iniesta - Darren Fletcher
Sergi Busquets - Macheda
Lionel Messi - Nobody
Bojan Krkic - Danny Welbeck

And we've got Ryan Giggs and Gary Neville in there too.

United have a strong home grown policy, and a strong English policy too. Always have under Ferguson [except for about a 4 year spell which is why we've missing people in our 23-27 category]

Also one of their players was developed primarily into a top class player by us. And he joined us because he knew that he'd get a better chance to develop at United.

I'm all for home grown policies and I'm all for encouraging youth development, but lets not distort the truth. United give a chance to young players, that's what we do.

Smegball

PHB wrote: »

Is he?

Victor Valdes - No goalie from United
Pique - Johnny Evans
Puyol - Wes Brown
Xavi Hernandez - Paul Scholes
Andres Iniesta - Darren Fletcher
Sergi Busquets - Macheda
Lionel Messi - Nobody
Bojan Krkic - Danny Welbeck

And we've got Ryan Giggs and Gary Neville in there too.

United have a strong home grown policy, and a strong English policy too. Always have under Ferguson [except for about a 4 year spell which is why we've missing people in our 23-27 category]

Also one of their players was developed primarily into a top class player by us. And he joined us because he knew that he'd get a better chance to develop at United.

I'm all for home grown policies and I'm all for encouraging youth development, but lets not distort the truth. United give a chance to young players, that's what we do.

Could add O Shea in there aswell

inforfun

invincibleirish wrote: »

Bit rich coming from a Dutchman who as a player was bought for megabucks by Barca, and who then managed Barca and bought more foreign players for cashmoney

In all fairness... he had only 4 foreigners during his managing days at barca. Romario, Stoitchkov, Laudrup and Koeman.

That 6+5 thing he mentiones, he has been mentioning it for years.
But... in Holland we get a bit tired of Mr Cruijff. His opinions are more and more coming over as if he gets a bit senile.
He still thinks Marco van Basten isa great manager for example.

chopperbyrne

You can say that about Man Utd, but look at Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea.

They'd be hard pushed to field a decent first eleven of English players between them.

Obviously with EU regulations it'll be very hard to bring it back to only three foreign players per teams, but I do agree that the majority of the players in a team should either be of that leagues nationality or have come through a youth academy from that country.

Mr. Presentable

Have you all missed the point? English football is the England side for him, so, the policies of the clubs are spoiling the English national side.

chopperbyrne

nipplenuts wrote: »

Have you all missed the point? English football is the England side for him, so, the policies of the clubs are spoiling the English national side.

Fairly certain we all knew that and dismissed it straight away as apart from the McClaren failure, England has performed to pretty much the same standard since the large influx of foreign players to the Premier League.

We then went on to discuss the 6-5 aspect of it in more detail.

OPENROAD

Smegball wrote: »

Could add O Shea in there aswell

Nope but I would take also out Fletcher, Giggs etc..

stovelid

nipplenuts wrote: »

Have you all missed the point? English football is the England side for him, so, the policies of the clubs are spoiling the English national side.

People always seem to expect more from England for some reason. Possibly because of the romantic idea of their position/history in football. Countries with regularly good/praised homegrown talent have long records of underachievement too. Like Spain and the Dutch (2008 and 1988 withstanding).

The dearth of top English players is often pointed out, but they have more than enough quality in most positions to do better than they do. A little more luck in 1990 and 1996 and they would have been in two finals. The issue of England under achievment is nothing to do with foreign players in England.

inforfun wrote: »

In all fairness... he had only 4 foreigners during his managing days at barca. Romario, Stoitchkov, Laudrup and Koeman.

Hardly marginal players in the dream team.

Barca have always bought big, foreign talent.

OPENROAD

stovelid wrote: »

A little more luck in 1990 and 1996 and they would have been in two finals.

+1

lordgoat

Cruyff - great player, amazing player actually. Annoying as **** since he's hung up his boots. I've been reading the same crap from him about this for about 10 years now.

/apologies for the exaggeation, he just pisses me off

Boskowski

stovelid wrote: »

A little more luck in 1990 and 1996 and they would have been in two finals

...which they would have lost to Germany...:D

stovelid

realcam wrote: »

...which they would have lost to Germany...:D

Germany beat them in both of those semis? :pac:

Well, the West in the first one.

Chucky the tree

stovelid wrote: »

People always seem to expect more from England for some reason. Possibly because of the romantic idea of their position/history in football. Countries with regularly good/praised homegrown talent have long records of underachievement too. Like Spain and the Dutch (2008 and 1988 withstanding).
.

Bit harsh to say they are underachieving considering there population. For them to continuously produce the players they do is a brilliant achievement.

kinaldo

lordgoat wrote: »

Cruyff - great player, amazing player actually. Annoying as **** since he's hung up his boots. I've been reading the same crap from him about this for about 10 years now.

/apologies for the exaggeation, he just pisses me off

Not a bad manager either...

stovelid

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Bit harsh to say they are underachieving considering there population. For them to continuously produce the players they do is a brilliant achievement.

I agree that it is, and to be honest, I had not considered the population argument re: Netherlands although if Cryuff is holding up Spain as a model for national football development, they have roughly the same population as England and have hardly achieved more in major tournaments.

Just that the argument that England "underachieve" because they supposedly don't produce good players is bogus if you consider that countries that consistently produce some of the best footballers in the world, like the Dutch, don't achieve as much as you would expect.

OPENROAD

realcam wrote: »

...which they would have lost to Germany...:D

both semis were against Germany and they were very very unlucky, who know England may well have gone on and won both

Chucky the tree

stovelid wrote: »

I agree that it is, and to be honest, I had not considered the population argument re: Netherlands although if Cryuff is holding up Spain as a model for national football development, they have roughly the same population as England and have hardly achieved more in major tournaments.

Just that the argument that England "underachieve" because they supposedly don't produce good players is bogus if you consider that countries that consistently produce some of the best footballers in the world, like the Dutch, don't achieve as much as you would expect.

The problem with the dutch is they usually produce 3-4 world class players but outside of that they struggle to produce a great squad. I agree that Spain cant talk about underachieving but I think they do constantly produce world class players compared to england. Of the current english players Rooney, Gerrard, Ferdinand and possibly Terry could be put in that category and no one else really.

eagle eye

The problem is not just an English problem. The EPL is the biggest league in Great Britain and Ireland, the amount of imports from Europe and the rest of the world has seriously damaged the national teams of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Think back to the late seventies and early eighties. We(ROI) had full teams of first team players in the first division of English football. Scotland had a huge amount of their players playing in it too, Wales had more than they have now and England had mutltiple battles in every position.

Its not the same now at all, even in the England set up, can you name the best goalkeeper, not one of them are playing for a big four club. Actually there is one Irish and one English keeper in the top ten teams at the present time in the EPL.

Our national team has suffered because of it, never mind the English team.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

The problem is not just an English problem. The EPL is the biggest league in Great Britain and Ireland, the amount of imports from Europe and the rest of the world has seriously damaged the national teams of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Think back to the late seventies and early eighties. We(ROI) had full teams of first team players in the first division of English football. Scotland had a huge amount of their players playing in it too, Wales had more than they have now and England had mutltiple battles in every position.

Its not the same now at all, even in the England set up, can you name the best goalkeeper, not one of them are playing for a big four club. Actually there is one Irish and one English keeper in the top ten teams at the present time in the EPL.

Our national team has suffered because of it, never mind the English team.

How many WC's and European cups did we qualify for in the 70's?

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How many WC's and European cups did we qualify for in the 70's?

While the ROI didn't qualify for any, it was really down to mismanagement in the Irish setup and tough groups too to be fair. I understand your point but it actually goes through the early nineties as well. We had a huge panel of first team first divison players to choose from at that stage as well. 1994 was our last world cup.

We lost out in '82 on goal difference to eventual beaten semi-finalists France, Belgium topped the group and had a successful tournament also.

In '86 we made a mess of it, rumoured at the time that Eoin Hand has lost the dressing room to senior players who picked the teams. The teams that qualified from our group both top their groups in the opening round of the world cup.

Back in '78 we were beaten by France and Bulgaria in a 3 way group with one qualifier, that was awful to be honest with us beating France but losing away and drawing at home with Bulgaria. We finished last of the three with 3 points, France won it with 5 iirc. 2 points for a win by the way.

Edit to add: Look at the top six in England at this moment in time. We have one player who plays regularly for his team at this moment and thats JOS. Nobody else even close to playing regularly.
Go back throught the decades and we had numerous players in most of those teams especially Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal.

Johnny Utah

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How many WC's and European cups did we qualify for in the 70's?

It was far harder to qualify back then- only 8 teams in the European Chamionships for example, compared to 16 nowadays. WC Finals had less teams too.


Cruyff is absolutely right btw.

Highsider

Johnny Utah wrote: »

It was far harder to qualify back then- only 8 teams in the European Chamionships for example, compared to 16 nowadays. WC Finals had less teams too.


Cruyff is absolutely right btw.

Yes. Yes he is.

therecklessone

The article itself if you've not read it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2009/0519/1224246881156.html

JOHAN CRUYFF has fired the opening salvo in the build-up to the Champions League final by accusing English clubs of damaging the game by stockpiling footballers from around the world.

The former Barcelona player and coach, who acts an adviser to the president, Joan Laporta, has held the Catalan club up as an example to follow thanks to their success in bringing through young talent – in contrast to their Premier League opponents. He has also warned that football is ruining the lives of children from around the world and has urged the European Union to intervene.

Barcelona’s starting XI in Rome is likely to include five Catalans, plus Leo Messi and Andres Iniesta, both of whom were brought through the club’s youth system, La Masia. At most, Manchester United will start with three – if Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes join John O’Shea in the side.

Cruyff, whose philosophy permeates Barcelona and who was responsible for employing Frank Rijkaard and Pep Guardiola as coach, says “the best thing” about their success is that other clubs “will copy them.”

He said: “Barcelona have a lot of home-grown players in the team. Big teams are not obliged to win at all costs; they are obliged to compete to win, always thinking of the good of the game.”

The good of the game is not something Cruyff believes Premier League clubs care about and he was scathing of the English model.

“However much English teams reach finals, I’m sorry, I do not buy it because of the players they have on the pitch,” he said. “The vast majority of them have been bought from abroad. There are very, very few Englishmen. Just look at the Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United squads.

“Both the English national team and football in general suffers as a result of them signing so many foreign players. Doing so weakens the competition because it’s impossible for every player they sign to play.

“I would like to see a candidate [at the European parliament elections] pick up on the 6+5 idea and fight to change the law on this. That way, the national teams would be improved. As a consequence, you’d also stop the trafficking of children – thousands of footballing hopefuls that are taken from poor countries and of whom only a tiny proportion make it. Where are the rest of them now, what’s their life like?”

Spud83

Don't know why he has United in the list really.

Van der Sar, Brown , Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Hargreaves, Scholes, Carrick, Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney.

We had 6 English players, fair enough only two came through from our youth system.

Van der Sar, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Carrick, Anderson, Ronaldo, Park, Rooney.

This year we may only have three. Scholes has a chance of starting so that would make four. Based on last year if Hargreaves and Brown were fit for more than one game this season they could still be in there. Plus Giggs grew up in England and could have played for them. Foster would have been on the bench if he wasn't injured.

Now looking at Uniteds reserves we are moving away form it a bit but we still have Eckersley who was reserve team player last year, Wellbeck who has broken through a small bit this year, and could do more next year, We just brought through Simpson who is now at Blackburn on loan, and Chris Eagles who has a chance of promotion with Burnley to the premiership.

Yes we have foreigns in our youth system, but when we find English talent that is good enough we give them a chance.

Mitch Connor

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Yes we have foreigns in our youth system, but when we find English talent that is good enough we give them a chance.

This for me is one of the big points. English (and Irish) kids simply are not good enough in general. It is not like the clubs are holding the english talent back, surpressing them as part of some master plan for the destruction of the English national side. The simple fact is that the players are not good enough, and not enough kids are determined (as well as talented) enough to make it. This thread looks to the barcelona academy - do people believe that if Barcelona were an english side, with english kids in their academy that they would still be producing players like Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas etc? I doubt it, because the english kids simply are not that good.

eZe^

Sigh, Cruyff is a bit of a senile old man these days, and it's a shame to see considering he was one of the greatest players ever to live. He is very open about is criticisms and publicly slated Rijkaard regularly before he stepped down last year. He likes playing devils advocate a bit more than he should, especially considering he is still using his heart as an excuse against getting back into the managing scene.

Warper

Cruyff does make valid points but surely we all knew this already. Just compare the top 4 teams in England to the top 4 teams in every other top European League and see the difference - the EPL is full of imports in both players and managers.

Seriously so what? The PL is all over our TV channels and I, for one would rather watch top players from all over the world rather than just watching English players.

The foreign players and managers are what made the top 4 in England so strong.

That said, the reason England perform poorly is not beacuse they have poor players. They just could never play together as a team - the Italian Capello seems to be getting a hang on this though.

CiaranC

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Yes we have foreigns in our youth system, but when we find English talent that is good enough we give them a chance.

Im confused, are you English or Irish?

Mitch Connor

CiaranC wrote: »

Im confused, are you English or Irish?

What has that got to do with it, if you continue the logic of the thread, Irish kids are as foreign as Brazillian in this instance, so it only makes sense to talk about English kids at English clubs. Or you just trying to cheap shot by deliberately ignoring the context of the thread? HHHHHHHHHHHHMMMmmmmmmmmmm

Spud83

CiaranC wrote: »

Im confused, are you English or Irish?

I'll make it easy.

We = Manchester United

Foreigners = Non English players (the "nationality" of Manchester United is England)

I don't see how my nationality matters.

CiaranC

Well sorry, I find it confusing when an Irish person says "we" in the the context of an English club bringing "foreign" players through their youth system, which is the context of the discussion. Thanks for clearing it up.

Mitch Connor

Warper wrote: »

Cruyff does make valid points but surely we all knew this already. Just compare the top 4 teams in England to the top 4 teams in every other top European League and see the difference - the EPL is full of imports in both players and managers.

Seriously so what? The PL is all over our TV channels and I, for one would rather watch top players from all over the world rather than just watching English players.

The foreign players and managers are what made the top 4 in England so strong.

That said, the reason England perform poorly is not beacuse they have poor players. They just could never play together as a team - the Italian Capello seems to be getting a hang on this though.

Fair enough. We'll leave at Barcelona cause they are well covered in this thread

Madrids first team against Barcelona.

1 Iker Casillas (G)
21 Christoph Metzelder (CD-L)
5 Fabio Cannavaro (CD-R)
16 Gabriel Heinze (LB)
4 Sergio Ramos (RB)
8 Fernando Gago (CM-L)
6 Lassana Diarra (CM-R)
12 Marcelo (LM)
11 Arjen Robben (RM)
7 Raúl (CF-L)
20 Gonzalo Higuaín (CF-R)

3 Spanish.

Seville agaisnt Ossasuna.

1 Andrés Palop (G)
14 Julien Escudé (CD-L)
4 Sebastien Squillaci (CD-R)
18 Fernando Navarro (LB)
24 Abdoulay Konko (RB)
22 Ndri Romaric (CM-L)
5 Aldo Duscher (CM-R)
6 Adriano (LM)
11 Renato (RM)
10 Luis Fabiano (CF-L)
12 Frederic Kanouté (CF-R)

2 Spanish

At. Madrid against Valencia

25 Leo Franco (G)
13 Alvaro Dominguez Soto (CD-L)
22 Pablo Ibañez (CD-R)
4 Mariano Pernia (LB)
17 Tomas Ujfalusi (RB)
8 Raúl García (CM-L)
12 Paulo Assuncao (CM-R)
20 Simão (LM)
11 Maxi Rodríguez (RM)
10 Sergio Leonel Aguero (CF-L)
7 Diego Forlan (CF-R)

4 Spanish I think.

Inter vs Siena

12 Julio César (G)
25 Walter Samuel (CD-L)
2 Ivan Cordoba (CD-R)
26 Cristian Chivu (LB)
4 Javier Zanetti (RB)
19 Esteban Cambiasso (LM)
20 Sulley Muntar (RM)
8 Zlatan Ibrahimovic (ST)
5 Dejan Stankovic (RCF)
45 Mario Balotelli (AM-L)
7 Luis Figo (AM-R)

1 Italian

Milan vs Juve

16 Zeljko Kalac (G)
19 Giuseppe Favalli (CD-L)
3 Paolo Maldini (CD-R)
21 Andrea Pirlo (DM)
15 Gianluca Zambrotta (LB)
84 Mathieu Flamini (RB)
10 Clarence Seedorf (AM)
23 Massimo Ambrosini (LM)
32 David Beckham (RM)
9 Filippo Inzaghi (CF-L)
22 Kaká (CF-R)

6 Italian

1 Gianluigi Buffon (G)
3 Giorgio Chiellini (CD-L)
33 Nicola Legrottaglie (CD-R)
29 Paolo De Ceglie (LB)
21 Zdenek Grygera (RB)
6 Cristiano Zanetti (CM-L)
18 Christian Poulsen (CM-R)
32 Marco Marchionni (LM)
16 Mauro German Camoranesi (RM)
9 Vincenzo Iaquinta (CF-L)
8 Carvalho De Oliveira Amauri (CF-R)

7 Italian i think.

Fiorentina vs Sapdoria

1 Sebastien Frey (G)
3 Dario Dainelli (CD-L)
5 Alessandro Gamberini (CD-R)
23 Manuel Pasqual (LB)
14 Luciano Zauri (RB)
18 Riccardo Montolivo (LM)
88 Felipe Melo (RM)
11 Alberto Gilardino (ST)
8 Stevan Jovetic (RCF)
6 Juan Vargas (AM-L)
7 Franco Semioli (AM-R)

7 Italian.
____________________

So, the Italian sides (apart from 4 times in a row champions Inter) kick ass in this regard but the Spanish sides are no better.

SectionF

eagle eye wrote: »

The problem is not just an English problem. The EPL is the biggest league in Great Britain and Ireland, the amount of imports from Europe and the rest of the world has seriously damaged the national teams of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Huh? We can leave the UK to sort out Scotland, NI and Wales, but under what extraordinarily flexible political atlas is RoI not part of the 'rest of the world'?

stovelid

When (Spain or Italy = main target for expensive imports) = cool.

When (England = main target for expensive imports) = coronaries for Cryuff, Platini and co.

inforfun

stovelid wrote: »

Hardly marginal players in the dream team.

Barca have always bought big, foreign talent.

Never said they were marginal.
But those were the only foreigners in the entire selection of players he had available. Also was only allowed to field 3 of them at the same time in the
Spanish league.

stovelid

inforfun wrote: »

Never said they were marginal.
But those were the only foreigners in the entire selection of players he had available. Also was only allowed to field 3 of them at the same time in the
Spanish league.

Historically, Barca have been big buyers of foreign players. The fact that the marquee players are buttressed by a bigger smattering of local talent than England doesn't alter that fact.

No matter about the valid points he's making about the crassness of the EPL and the fortunes of the English game, the fact remains that Barca (and Madrid) have consistently sought and bought the biggest players in the world.

The timing of the Cryuff and Platini bellyaching coincidentally dovetails with the recent failure of Serie A and La Liga to compete with the EPL.

Fratton Fred

**** the big four, they have the money to be able to sort themselves out if these rules ever come in.

look at the pompey squad, we have little chance as it is of keeping hold of the likes of Crouch and Johnson, if Mancheliverarse need to bump up their English players than their value suddenly goes through the roof.

where is the rest of the premiership going to find 8 (presuming they need to field 5 English players, they will need 8 to cover for injuries etc) if the big four take the best 30 or forty players?

Great if you have loads of money, **** for everyone else. How is that an improvement?