Cruyff Slams English Model

inforfun

stovelid wrote: »

Historically, Barca have been big buyers of foreign players. The fact that the marquee players are buttressed by a bigger smattering of local talent than England doesn't alter that fact.

No matter about the valid points he's making about the crassness of the EPL and the fortunes of the English game, the fact remains that Barca (and Madrid) have consistently sought and bought the biggest players in the world.

The timing of the Cryuff and Platini bellyaching coincidentally dovetails with the recent failure of Serie A and La Liga to compete with the EPL.

I dont think he is complaining about quality but more about quantity.
Since i am Dutch i ll try to take that kleague as an example of why this "buy everything you can get your hands on policy" is bad.

When the maximum allowed amount of foreigners was 3 players like Van Basten, Gullit and the likes went abroad as well. But they were 25/26 when they left. Nowadays we have players leaving the dutch league when they are 19.
Quite recently we had Royston Drenthe, who played 23 first team games for Feyenoord being bought by Real Madrid. That would never have happened in the Gullit/Van Basten area.
Players as young as 14 are being robbed from Dutch clubs.

Where i used to be really looking forward to European nights at Feyenoord, nowadays i could care less. This year they did win 1 european game.
Give it a few more years and the CL will be a PL/LA Ligua cup and the rest of Europe wont care.

Dutch teams have to bring in a budget at the start of the season. If you take less moeny in than you spend, your licence will be revoked.
Still they are expected to compete with clubs that have 600 million in debts or that can only survive because they took some rich Russian on board who is willing to pay the 200 million euro loss every year out of his own pockets.

Something needs to change and a 6+5 rule would be a nice start.
Next thing should be a budget rule like in Holland. So that clubs can only spend what they rake in themselves.

eagle eye

SectionF wrote: »

Huh? We can leave the UK to sort out Scotland, NI and Wales, but under what extraordinarily flexible political atlas is RoI not part of the 'rest of the world'?

Wat?
Liam Brady, John Giles, Roy Keane, Shay Given, Paul McGrath, Robbie Keane, Frank Stapleton, Kevin Moran, Damien Duff, David O'Leary to name but a few were all born in the ROI and the majority would make any all time ROI team. They all played in the top division of English football whether that be the old first division or the Premier League or both.
The English football league was in existence before we gained our independence from the UK. Even our first team in 1924 had many players that played in the English League.
The best players on the Republic of Ireland national team have always played in the English League with one or two exceptions.

SectionF

eagle eye wrote: »

Wat?
Liam Brady, John Giles, Roy Keane, Shay Given, Paul McGrath, Robbie Keane, Frank Stapleton, Kevin Moran, Damien Duff, David O'Leary to name but a few were all born in the ROI and the majority would make any all time ROI team. They all played in the top division of English football whether that be the old first division or the Premier League or both.
The English football league was in existence before we gained our independence from the UK. Even our first team in 1924 had many players that played in the English League.
The best players on the Republic of Ireland national team have always played in the English League with one or two exceptions.

What part of that makes us not foreign in the English league? How far can you stretch language to arrange things so that no one can burst your EPL bubble?

eagle eye

SectionF wrote: »

What part of that makes us not foreign in the English league? How far can you stretch language to arrange things so that no one can burst your EPL bubble?

Our best players have played in that league since and before we became a republic. Its a natural progression for our top players, it always has been.

Mitch Connor

eagle eye wrote: »

Our best players have played in that league since and before we became a republic. Its a natural progression for our top players, it always has been.

but they are still foreign players to the league, so they would be as hampered by a 6+5 rules as any other nations (more so than the bigger nations with the big leagues)

eagle eye

Mitch Connor wrote: »

but they are still foreign players to the league, so they would be as hampered by a 6+5 rules as any other nations (more so than the bigger nations with the big leagues)

It wasn't the case in the past, there was a special exemption for ROI players. I don't remember exactly what the rule was but there certainly was a special rule regarding ROI players in the English Football League system. I think it might have been two ROI players = One foreign player at the time that Roy Keane and Denis Irwin played for United.

CiaranC

eagle eye wrote: »

It wasn't the case in the past, there was a special exemption for ROI players. I don't remember exactly what the rule was but there certainly was a special rule regarding ROI players in the English Football League system. I think it might have been two ROI players = One foreign player at the time that Roy Keane and Denis Irwin played for United.

Are you serious? Thats mad ted. Can you point to any reference for this?

chopperbyrne

CiaranC wrote: »

Are you serious? Thats mad ted. Can you point to any reference for this?

It was definitely like this in Championship Manager 2.

Think it was three non-English players from within UK & Ireland and two foreign players.

therecklessone

eagle eye wrote: »

It wasn't the case in the past, there was a special exemption for ROI players. I don't remember exactly what the rule was but there certainly was a special rule regarding ROI players in the English Football League system. I think it might have been two ROI players = One foreign player at the time that Roy Keane and Denis Irwin played for United.

I don't recall that ever being the case.

Irish players used to benefit from being assimilated, which meant if they were 5 years playing in England they were exempt from classification as a "foreign player", though whether there was a limit on how many could be assimilated I don't recall.

*not sure assimilated is the right word, but you get my drift I hope*

stovelid

inforfun wrote: »

I dont think he is complaining about quality but more about quantity.
Since i am Dutch i ll try to take that kleague as an example of why this "buy everything you can get your hands on policy" is bad.

When the maximum allowed amount of foreigners was 3 players like Van Basten, Gullit and the likes went abroad as well. But they were 25/26 when they left. Nowadays we have players leaving the dutch league when they are 19.
Quite recently we had Royston Drenthe, who played 23 first team games for Feyenoord being bought by Real Madrid. That would never have happened in the Gullit/Van Basten area.
Players as young as 14 are being robbed from Dutch clubs.

Where i used to be really looking forward to European nights at Feyenoord, nowadays i could care less. This year they did win 1 european game.
Give it a few more years and the CL will be a PL/LA Ligua cup and the rest of Europe wont care.

Dutch teams have to bring in a budget at the start of the season. If you take less moeny in than you spend, your licence will be revoked.
Still they are expected to compete with clubs that have 600 million in debts or that can only survive because they took some rich Russian on board who is willing to pay the 200 million euro loss every year out of his own pockets.

Something needs to change and a 6+5 rule would be a nice start.
Next thing should be a budget rule like in Holland. So that clubs can only spend what they rake in themselves.

I don't oppose the rule, InForFun, and I certainly have very grave doubts about the direction of the EPL too - just meant that it's a bit rich to see concern breaking out from La Liga and Serie A when they start losing the bucks-battle with the EPL.

OPENROAD

eagle eye wrote: »

Wat?
Liam Brady, John Giles, Roy Keane, Shay Given, Paul McGrath, Robbie Keane, Frank Stapleton, Kevin Moran, Damien Duff, David O'Leary to name but a few were all born in the ROI and the majority would make any all time ROI team. .

Paul McGrath and David O'Leary were born in England,both in London

OPENROAD

eagle eye wrote: »

It wasn't the case in the past, there was a special exemption for ROI players. .

Their shouldn't be though.

eagle eye

OPENROAD wrote: »

Their shouldn't be though.

Why not? We have never had a league system in this country that coud accomodate our top players. We don't even have a youth system to develop players to the standard that they have attained across the water. The history of Irish players travelling to England and playing in the English football league system is older than the European Cup. It should be allowed to continue. While we are a separate country, in soccer terms we have always been part of the English league system, all the best players have always played there.
History and the current state of the other football leagues in the British Isles is enough for me to believe that this should continue.

DerekD Goldfish

eagle eye wrote: »

Why not? We have never had a league system in this country that coud accomodate our top players. We don't even have a youth system to develop players to the standard that they have attained across the water. The history of Irish players travelling to England and playing in the English football league system is older than the European Cup. It should be allowed to continue. While we are a separate country, in soccer terms we have always been part of the English league system, all the best players have always played there.
History and the current state of the other football leagues in the British Isles is enough for me to believe that this should continue.

Thats not uefa's problem
We shouldn't be treated any differently

OPENROAD

eagle eye wrote: »

Why not? We have never had a league system in this country that coud accomodate our top players. We don't even have a youth system to develop players to the standard that they have attained across the water. The history of Irish players travelling to England and playing in the English football league system is older than the European Cup. It should be allowed to continue. While we are a separate country, in soccer terms we have always been part of the English league system, all the best players have always played there.
History and the current state of the other football leagues in the British Isles is enough for me to believe that this should continue.

Personally nationality should not come into it, their should be no restrictions on players from the EU, however if their was why should Ireland get an exemption.

eagle eye

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

Thats not uefa's problem
We shouldn't be treated any differently

I've explained why we should, please read what I wrote again and don't be so quick to highlight the first line and make a comment. :rolleyes:

eagle eye

OPENROAD wrote: »

Personally nationality should not come into it, their should be no restrictions on players from the EU, however if their was why should Ireland get an exemption.

Becuse historically our players have always been a part of that league. Long before Uefa or the European Cup/Champion's League came into existence.

DerekD Goldfish

eagle eye wrote: »

I've explained why we should, please read what I wrote again and don't be so quick to highlight the first line and make a comment. :rolleyes:

I did read what you wrote and with respect its bollocks lots of other countries have players playing in "better" leagues close to them there is no reason for us to be treated differently id would be unfair to other countries/english players

OPENROAD

eagle eye wrote: »

Becuse historically our players have always been a part of that league. Long before Uefa or the European Cup/Champion's League came into existence.

I've read your post, I just don't agree with it, as I said I'm against the quota rule anyway, my main concern is for my club but for arguments sake the rule comes in, it comes in for the benefit of the country in question, in this case its the English Premier League for the benefit of in this case England, in France it would be for the benefit of the French etc... defeats the purpose if you are helping out the Irish, scots or welsh, again to clarify my position I'm against this quota rule and can't see how they will ever be able to legally enforce it.

CiaranC

eagle eye wrote: »

While we are a separate country, in soccer terms we have always been part of the English league system

Jesus H Christ.

The idea of the quota is to stop the bigger leagues from soaking up all the talent from other leagues around them at the expense of the development of players in their own country. So its supposed to aid development in say, England AND Ireland.

You have neither an interest in seeing young English players developed or in seeing your national league develop. In this case Irish "football fans" are almost unique in the world.

This thread is ludicrous.

eagle eye

CiaranC wrote: »

Jesus H Christ.

The idea of the quota is to stop the bigger leagues from soaking up all the talent from other leagues around them at the expense of the development of players in their own country. So its supposed to aid development in say, England AND Ireland.

You have neither an interest in seeing young English players developed or in seeing your national league develop. In this case Irish "football fans" are almost unique in the world.

This thread is ludicrous.

We are a very small country and realistically a huge portion of these players would have/will never develop into top class footballers if we are to depend on an Irish League system.
Some might become GAA players or Rugby players, some will give up the sport as they try and make a career for themselves in some other profession. Some will make it but our national team would suffer tremendously.
As I've said the history of Irish players developing and spending their full professional careers in England is there and its older than Uefa and the European Cup/Champion's League. England won a World Cup while Irish players were playing in the English system.
Irish, Welsh and Scottish players in the English League is not affecting their chances of developing players.

OPENROAD

eagle eye wrote: »

Irish, Welsh and Scottish players in the English League is not affecting their chances of developing players.

It could be argued that it would because they are taking the place of home grown English players. UEFA argument is that they want to encourage the growth of home grown players, robbie keane etc.. are not home grown players, Irelands size does not come into it imo going by what UEFA are trying to achieve.

CiaranC

eagle eye wrote: »

We are a very small country and realistically a huge portion of these players would have/will never develop into top class footballers if we are to depend on an Irish League system.

Naturally it would follow that we would need a proper youth and league structure if we wanted to develop top quality footballers. Thats kinda the point. Countries like Denmark manage this.

Some will make it but our national team would suffer tremendously.

But the English national team could improve. We are not English, they have no responsibility to develop our players.

Irish, Welsh and Scottish players in the English League is not affecting their chances of developing players.

No matter how much barstoolers want it, we are not English. We are foreigners. Every non-English player denied exposure to player at the top in England by a non-national is one who wont develop to the level he might.

As it stands, the English system hoovers up ALL of the talent from this country. Not just the cream of talent, which might be expected, but ALL of it. Only in Ireland could this be argued to be a GOOD thing. And people wonder why football supporters from this country are bitter.

SectionF

eagle eye wrote: »

We are a very small country and realistically a huge portion of these players would have/will never develop into top class footballers if we are to depend on an Irish League system.
Some might become GAA players or Rugby players, some will give up the sport as they try and make a career for themselves in some other profession. Some will make it but our national team would suffer tremendously.
As I've said the history of Irish players developing and spending their full professional careers in England is there and its older than Uefa and the European Cup/Champion's League. England won a World Cup while Irish players were playing in the English system.
Irish, Welsh and Scottish players in the English League is not affecting their chances of developing players.

Essentially, what you are saying is that Irish football is a parasite. We've been excused putting any effort into developing the sport in Ireland because we can rely on England to accommodate our top talent while we get on with GAA and rugby. Surely any proposal to put an end to that neglect is good for the game on both islands.

Happy Monday

Mr Alan wrote: »

Messi was hardly born in the shadow of Camp Nou in fairness.

Or Henry, Eto or Ronaldinho.

Or Stoichkov, Hagi or Koeman from Cruyff's team.

Italian teams dominated Europe with top foreign players - no one complained then.

Looks like a case of one might term 'sour grapes' from Cruyff and Platini!

Johnny Utah

SectionF wrote: »

Essentially, what you are saying is that Irish football is a parasite. We've been excused putting any effort into developing the sport in Ireland because we can rely on England to accommodate our top talent while we get on with GAA and rugby. Surely any proposal to put an end to that neglect is good for the game on both islands.

As I said before, we can't support a full-time professional league, of even mediocre stanard, in Ireland. At best, with huge funding and every football supporter getting behind the LofI, we'd be lucky to have something like the Belgian league, and even that is very, very optimistic, and will probably never happen.

CiaranC

Johnny Utah wrote: »

As I said before, we can't support a full-time professional league, of even mediocre stanard, in Ireland. At best, with huge funding and every football supporter getting behind the LofI, we'd be lucky to have something like the Belgian league, and even that is very, very optimistic, and will probably never happen.

Whats wrong with the Belgian league? Norway has about the same population of Ireland North and South and it manages OK.

Part of the reason we dont have a good football structure because England sucks up all our interest, support and best talent. Which is what these measures are trying to address.

Johnny Utah

There's nothing wrong with the Belgian league, but I don't think the LofI will ever reach that standard, which is quite mediocre at best. Plus, Belgium has a bigger population than us, and doesn't have the Gah and rugby distraction that we have.

gustavo

Johnny Utah wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the Belgian league, but I don't think the LofI will ever reach that standard, which is quite mediocre at best. Plus, Belgium has a bigger population than us, and doesn't have the Gah and rugby distraction that we have.

Why shouldn't we want to develop our own league and players in our own countries ?
Is that such a bad thing ?

SectionF

Johnny Utah wrote: »

As I said before, we can't support a full-time professional league, of even mediocre stanard, in Ireland. At best, with huge funding and every football supporter getting behind the LofI, we'd be lucky to have something like the Belgian league, and even that is very, very optimistic, and will probably never happen.

In relative terms, we can never hope to match the English, Spanish etc. leagues, or perhaps even the Belgians. That's a given, but it's not the point, and if every league or and every sport applied that logic there would only be one league and one sport (which is where we appear to be headed in football anyway).
As a country, we can still be realistically ambitious and aim for the best football we can have. Might not have as many ooh-ah Ronaldo/Messi moments, but one can live with that, with, of course, the compensation that it's for real and doesn't simply depend on television.

Johnny Utah

SectionF wrote: »

In relative terms, we can never hope to match the English, Spanish etc. leagues, or perhaps even the Belgians. That's a given, but it's not the point, and if every league or and every sport applied that logic there would only be one league and one sport (which is where we appear to be headed in football anyway).
As a country, we can still be realistically ambitious and aim for the best football we can have. Might not have as many ooh-ah Ronaldo/Messi moments, but one can live with that, with, of course, the compensation that it's for real and doesn't simply depend on television.

Fair point, and I agree that we should be developing football in this country, but I think we should be concentrating on setting up a top-class youth academy, with a view to developing a healthy supply of good young Irish players who could be farmed out to clubs all over Western Europe (not just England). I think a youth academy is a much more realistic option than developing the LoI into a full-time professional league.

SectionF

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think a youth academy is a much more realistic option than developing the LoI into a full-time professional league.

I'm not wedded to the idea of a full-time pro league, and I doubt that many are.

We have been painfully discovering over the past few years that it doesn't pan out financially. Huge resources were poured into paying players. The standard improved markedly. But ill-informed people here and elsewhere persisted in dismissing the league as 'crap' because it wasn't the same as the EPL and La Liga and other sports on their TVs. The media gave it little credit and (MSN excepted) little additional support. And crowds of 'the best fans in the world' stayed away.

Now, the reality is that we can probably stage, at best, a semi-pro league, run on tight budgets, honest endeavour, and love of the game. None of that need exclude having a youth development system, and the A Championship could well be an important component of such a system.