Israel at it again!

Joey the lips

turgon wrote: »

And by the way I wouldnt exactly consider Amnesty International pure of heart, they are highly guilty of taking sides and not being objective.

Remember that time a few guys held up a rural post office with guns and in the Garda operation later one of the armed robbers was killed. Amnesty took the side of the robbers. Dont ask me what Amnesty thought the robbers expected when you put a gun into the face of a postwarden. To get away alive.

You play by death, you shouldnt be surprised if you get killed. Which is applicable to the conflict here.

And I think that innocent people on either side getting killed is a disgrace.

I find that comment daft. If you read the article then its open to dispute. Pick points you dispute and argue against them.Amnestly in this case have reported the facts as seen. But in fairness are you asking we listen to you or trust amnesty. The real issue here is the fact that Isreal wont settle they have a constant need to expand and claim land. This is the real issue and very evident.

The palestinians are only doing what we would do!

arybvtcw0eolkf

marcsignal wrote: »

Well they do say History repeats itself........

And they do say, look out for YOUR OWN before sticking your nose in someone else's business first!.

Israel build the wall to protect itself from murderers sending suicide bombers/murderers into Israel proper to slaughter innocent men, women and children.

In fact, our 'peace walls' (nice name eh!) in N.I. are longer and in places higher than Israels. Another little known fact is that Israel's wall makes up only 3% of the security fence.

As for the topic, I wish they'd also stop the settlements - as do a large number of Israeli's - who despise the settlers as they don't pay taxes, they are exempt military service (although alot serve) and are propped up by the Israeli tax payer and wealthy lobbiests in the USA.

.

turgon

What do ye Palestinian sympathizers say about the reckless killing of innocent Israeli citizens?

And I say reckless not to be emotional, but being fair firing a rocket into another land without target, or blowing up a bus randomly, is being reckless.

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

What do ye Palestinian sympathizers say about the reckless killing of innocent Israeli citizens?

What, all 9 of them.. 3 if you don't 6 the 6 Israeli soldiers? Compared to the 1000+ Palestinians who were killed?

We see where your priorities lay.

wes

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

And they do say, look out for YOUR OWN before sticking your nose in someone else's business first!.

I am sure you would say the same to Israeli's. Considering that Zionist colonists founded there country using terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Israel build the wall to protect itself from murderers sending suicide bombers/murderers into Israel proper to slaughter innocent men, women and children.

What about the murderer's Israel sends into the Palestinians territories? They ought to cut it out as well.

As for there apartheid wall, well there are a couple of major problems with it. Firstly, that they are building it on stolen Palestinian land. Now if it was for security, they could have built it on there own land. Also, stealing more land will of course exacerbate the conflict, which is a conflict over land. So the security excuse for there apartheid wall is a very thin one.

Nodin

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

And they do say, look out for YOUR OWN before sticking your nose in someone else's business first!.

Those walls aren't annexing part of Donegal into NI for British settlers are they?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Israel build the wall to protect itself

...and if it had followed Israels internationally recognised borders, I doubt there'd be as many complaints about it.

IRISH RAIL

dlofnep wrote: »

What, all 9 of them.. 3 if you don't 6 the 6 Israeli soldiers? Compared to the 1000+ Palestinians who were killed?

We see where your priorities lay.

We see where you are being selective again.

turgon

turgon wrote: »

What do ye Palestinian sympathizers say about the reckless killing of innocent Israeli citizens?

I wasnt referring to the numbers, I was referring to the idea.

wes

turgon wrote: »

I wasnt referring to the numbers, I was referring to the idea.

Of course what Hamas is doing is wrong.

Still, there is one rather huge difference between the 2 sides. The simple fact is that Israel is the occupier. This makes them uniquely responsible in that they provide the reason for all the violence, as both sides violence stems from the occupation.

For Israeli there violence is maintain the occupation and steal more Palestinian land for there colonies. For the Palestinians, it is a fight to end the occupation and take back there land. Without the occupation both sides lose there major reasons for perpetuating the violence.

This is why imho, I would consider the occupier (especially a colonial one like Israel) to generally be the source of the problem. This of course doesn't excuse the occupied people from there own actions. Hamas have a choice and they choose to kill innocent people as opposed to attacking military targets.

arybvtcw0eolkf

wes wrote: »

I
As for there apartheid wall, well there are a couple of major problems with it. Firstly, that they are building it on stolen Palestinian land. Now if it was for security, they could have built it on there own land. Also, stealing more land will of course exacerbate the conflict, which is a conflict over land. So the security excuse for there apartheid wall is a very thin one.

"apartheid wall" - Taliban or Mujahideen?

'Iraqi freedom fighter' or terrorist?.

'Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela' terrorist?

Your playing with words.

As for Israel's borders, they were clearly defined in the land grab that was the Belfort agreement (everyone but the Palo's done well out of it) - well Israel's neighbours might learn after the recent Gaza conflict that Israel has just put a new price tag on attacking it.

Leave Israel alone, pure and simple.

As for the West Bank settlements, like I said I'm in opposition to them - but I have that luxury as I'm not in Israel. But if you really want to get your knickers in a twist over 'em, maybe you should lobby the Jordanians and ask why they're not looking for the return of their land (but don't mention Black September ) or ask the Egyptians why they don't want Gaza back?.

Or if you REALLY want to look after your own, Lobby the Palestinians and ask them to return the body of Private Kevin Joyce to his family for a proper Christian burial and stop using his remains as a political pawn in their game against the Israeli's.

This beats the crap out of me, the ignorance of you guys. You try to draw a comparision between the Pals and our history, you think the Pals give a rats ass?.

Of course you'll ignore this, but it remains a fact - an Irish soldier was kidnapped & murdered by the PLO and his remains still ie in South Lebanon.

You really think they give a sh*t about you or I?.

We ALMOST had him back home last time I served in Lebanon, but time ran out and we withdrew.

dlofnep

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

We see where you are being selective again.

Do explain? Want to debate figures?

The Saint

Jesus Christ people. This isn't difficult. Settlements are illegal. The Wall where it encroaches on Palestinian land is illegal. It's well established in international public law. That's it. The ICJ said it and even the Israeli supreme Court says that all of the West Bank is under "Beligerent Occupation" and therefore not Israeli territory. I'm not getting sucked into this **** again. I've laid out the legal basisfor this time and again. I'm not going to do it again. **** sake.

The Saint

Please don't do this again Mairt, especially in a lazy way.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

"apartheid wall" - Taliban or Mujahideen?

'Iraqi freedom fighter' or terrorist?.

'Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela' terrorist?

Your playing with words.

As for Israel's borders, they were clearly defined in the land grab that was the Belfort agreement (everyone but the Palo's done well out of it) - well Israel's neighbours might learn after the recent Gaza conflict that Israel has just put a new price tag on attacking it..

Balfour...

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

As for the West Bank settlements, like I said I'm in opposition to them - but I have that luxury as I'm not in Israel. But if you really want to get your knickers in a twist over 'em, maybe you should lobby the Jordanians and ask why they're not looking for the return of their land (but don't mention Black September ) or ask the Egyptians why they don't want Gaza back?

That's just stupidly lazy Mairt. Gaza and the West Bank were never legally Egyptuan or Jordanian territory. Your arguement is mute. Black September is irrelivant.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Or if you REALLY want to look after your own, Lobby the Palestinians and ask them to return the body of Private Kevin Joyce to his family for a proper Christian burial and stop using his remains as a political pawn in their game against the Israeli's.

Straw man. This has been dealt with and has nothing to do with the current arguement. If you want to make an emotional appeal then fin but it has nothing to do with what the topic is about and should have nothing to do woth the current state of affairs.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

This beats the crap out of me, the ignorance of you guys. You try to draw a comparision between the Pals and our history, you think the Pals give a rats ass?.

It's a bit rich talking about ignorance given half the stuff you stated above.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Of course you'll ignore this, but it remains a fact - an Irish soldier was kidnapped & murdered by the PLO and his remains still ie in South Lebanon.

Again irrelivant to the current arguement. This is a different conflict than the one in Lebanon. I understand your feelings about this given your position it should not have any bearing on the arguement.

I'm too drunk to argue this now but given our previous encounters I would have expected better from you.

Joey the lips

Just in case you have not realised there is generally no constructive arguement on boards when something makes sense. for example, nobody has successfully argued on this thread as to why the palastinians are wrong. There can be no doubt the Isrealies are wrong. Simple everyone knows it and accepts it in the civilised world the only reason the US does not is that it needs an allie in the middle east!

So what do we do about it! B.I.G Boycott Isreali Goods. Jaffa Oranges being most famous! Jaffa Cakes.

Some common Israeli goods:

• Tivall (Sainsbury's Meatfree Hot Dog Sausages and Vegetarian Sausages)
• Carmel (West Bank) (Organic Fruit and Veg sold in most Supermarkets)
• Tomer (West Bank) (Organic Fruit and Veg sold in most Supermarkets)
• Beigel and Beigel (West Bank) (Sweets and Pretzels etc)
• Agriver/Flowersdirect (West Bank) (strawberries sold in Aldi), but also other berries, cut herbs, pomegranates, figs, peppers, passion fruit, plums, carrots, cut melons, cut mangos and many other products.

Wines

• Galil Wines (The Golan Heights) (Waitrose, Sainsbury's)
• Palwin Wine (West Bank) (Sainsbury's, Tesco, Waitrose)
• Carmel Wine (West Bank) (Smithfield Wines, Manchester)
• Tishbi (Smithfield Wines, Manchester)
• Binyamina (West Bank/Golan) (John Lewis, Waitrose)

More information can be got at

www.bigcampaign.org

www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.html


You will be surprised at some of the goods! Some of Isreals biggest supportors is a major cola producer and a premier league football team.


I doubt many will stand up to there convictions there

Nodin

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

"- well Israel's neighbours might learn after the recent Gaza conflict that Israel has just put a new price tag on attacking it..

Massive overreaction and collective punishment? Thats been policy since 1948. They're just slightly less honest about it now.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

. But if you really want to get your knickers in a twist over 'em, maybe you should lobby the Jordanians and ask why they're not looking for the return of their land ..

....because they're already a minority in their own country due to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the OT etc. The West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem was ceded to the Palestinians so they could have their own state, perhaps relieving demographic pressure on Jordanians.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Lobby the Palestinians and ask them to return the body of Private Kevin Joyce ..

And no Irish troops died at the hands of Israel or its allied forces?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

You try to draw a comparision between the Pals and our history, you think the Pals give a rats ass?...

Some may. Most probably have no idea about the subject. However, if none of them knew, or all of them knew and didn't care, its still a valid comparison.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Of course you'll ignore this, but it remains a fact - an Irish soldier was kidnapped & murdered by the PLO and his remains still ie in South Lebanon.

Two Irish soldiers were kidnapped and murdered in 1980 by members of the Phalange. Yet I've never seen you mention the fact. You seem a bit selective in what you get outraged about.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

You really think they give a sh*t about you or I?.

Does Israel?

Did the people who Live Aid was supposed to help?

dresden8

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/03/18/story21966.asp

Living scot-free in the US as well.

Nice.

wes

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

"apartheid wall" - Taliban or Mujahideen?

'Iraqi freedom fighter' or terrorist?.

'Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela' terrorist?

Your playing with words.

Apartheid = Seperation. The Israeli's call it a seperation wall. What I say is damn accurate.

Also, lets not forget the Jewish only roads. All I am doing here is calling a spade a spade.

Now, I know many people would rather pretend that Israel isn't racist, but the evidence is pretty damning. Even Apartheid South Africa didn't have roads only for whites. So its pretty clear to me how much worse Israel is.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

As for Israel's borders, they were clearly defined in the land grab that was the Belfort agreement (everyone but the Palo's done well out of it) - well Israel's neighbours might learn after the recent Gaza conflict that Israel has just put a new price tag on attacking it.

By murdering innocent civilians? They have been exacting that price since they came up with the whole Iron wall concept in the early 20th century. Its pretty much what Zionists have always done and the method they chose to use to create there state, by terror and colonization etc. The Palestinians didn't have to do anything to Israel, for the Israeli's to attack and murder them and steal there land.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Leave Israel alone, pure and simple.

Maybe Israel needs to stop stealing other peoples land. Maybe then the people who they steal from will leave them alone. Of course, Israel will never leave the Palestinians alone, as they want the land there living on and they need to steal which tends to mean having to kill Palestinians.

You see Israel won't leave the Palestinians alone, hence all the land stealing, which is you know the whole point of there state ideology. So kinda hard for the Palestinians to leave the Israeli's alone, when they have colonists maniancs running amok on there land.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

As for the West Bank settlements, like I said I'm in opposition to them - but I have that luxury as I'm not in Israel. But if you really want to get your knickers in a twist over 'em, maybe you should lobby the Jordanians and ask why they're not looking for the return of their land (but don't mention Black September ) or ask the Egyptians why they don't want Gaza back?.

I fail to see the relevance here exactly. What does Egypt or Jordan have to do with anything? I know the answer is nothing and pretty much everyone else knows that too.

Also, the actions of others hardly excuse Israel actions now does it? Pretty silly to even suggest such a thing.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Or if you REALLY want to look after your own, Lobby the Palestinians and ask them to return the body of Private Kevin Joyce to his family for a proper Christian burial and stop using his remains as a political pawn in their game against the Israeli's.

So all the Palestinians should be held responsible for the actions of the few?

Also, why don't you mention all the Irish soldiers killed by Israel and other groups in Lebanon?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

This beats the crap out of me, the ignorance of you guys. You try to draw a comparision between the Pals and our history, you think the Pals give a rats ass?.

Well, I can hardly read the minds of millions of people, but apparently you can.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Of course you'll ignore this, but it remains a fact - an Irish soldier was kidnapped & murdered by the PLO and his remains still ie in South Lebanon.

Which is of course terrible, but I again fail to see how this is the fault of all Palestinians.

Also, considering the crazy amount of factions running around Lebanon's camps, I think its a bit much for you to state it was the PLO who was involved. It could have been any number of groups and your own article doesn't even mention the PLO btw.

There is also, the little fact of all the other Irish soldiers killed in Lebanon by other groups. Why are they being left out?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

You really think they give a sh*t about you or I?.

Again, I can't read the minds of millions of people. So I can't say I know neither way, what millions of people collectively feel. Oh wait, Human Beings aren't a hive mind, damn I forgot that. Human Beings can differ in opinion from one another. So, it makes it impossible to know what millions of people feel about a situation.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

We ALMOST had him back home last time I served in Lebanon, but time ran out and we withdrew.

So all Palestinians are somehow to blame for this crime then? Bit of a stretch me thinks.

**EDIT**
Just saw dresden8's post which basically puts a rather huge damper on what your saying.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

I'm too drunk to argue this now but given our previous encounters I would have expected better from you.

Woo Hoo, you weren't by chance at the same benefit night as I was in Portmarnock? (I was fairly hammered last night too).

As regards making all my posts "irrelivant", it just infuriates me to see how Irish people time and again bury their heads in the sand when it comes to Palestinians.

Sometimes it boils down to pure out right anti-semitism, other's it comes down to somehow identifying with their plight with our's (usually these are SF/IRA sympathisers - understandable since each can also identify with terrorism).

And others (you Saint) it boils down to education, and I am completely in agreement with you on most things. But you should also realise that the middle east under Balfour (thanks) was a massive land grab, the Pals done very badly out of it, tried to terrorise not only Israel, but Jordan & Lebanon too but of course you see this as being "irrelivant" now, why?.

In regards to the most recent war in Gaza, you know how much I opposed that war too and how it almost directly effected me. It was sickening & disgusting, but it was also Israel putting a new higher price tag on its enemies attacking it.

But back to the settlements, I'd support all moves to have them stopped too.

Btw, Kevin Joyce isn't irrelivant in all this. His body is used as a political pawn by the Palestinians in getting our government to go just that little bit further in our condemnation of Israeli retalitory actions with the slight hope that they might give us a little bit more of the jig-saw puzzle (the where abouts of Kevin Joyces young body, he was 18yrs old).

.

wes

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

And others (you Saint) it boils down to education, and I am completely in agreement with you on most things. But you should also realise that the middle east under Balfour (thanks) was a massive land grab, the Pals done very badly out of it, tried to terrorise not only Israel, but Jordan & Lebanon too but of course you see this as being "irrelivant" now, why?.

So the Israeli's are innocent of there massive land grab? What the hell?

You do realize that Zionists lobbied for Balfour? Right? **EDIT** Also, that Zionist colonists were arriving in Palestine before the Balfrou declaration as well? **END EDIT** There not innocent flower children looking for peace. It was them who stole Palestinian land. I know the British helped them out, but its bizare that you seem to think that Israel is blameless in this.

Also, the Palestinians are hardly terrorizing Israel. There fighting them, as they are colonists, who not only stole there land, but is still stealing there land to this day.

It is nothing short of amazing that you seem to think the conflict is soley due to the Palestinians attacking other people, when they were ones attacked by Zionists colonists. What exactly do you expect to happen? When people are attacked they normally fight back.

Demonique

Joey the lips wrote: »

You will be surprised at some of the goods! Some of Isreals biggest supportors is a major cola producer and a premier league football team.


I doubt many will stand up to there convictions there

I hate football anyway, and even if I didn't hate football I hate that twunt Ashley Cole so I wouldn't support Arse-enal anyway.

I'm surprised at Arse-enal supporting Israel seeing as Emirates airlines, the national airline of the United Arab Emirates, supports Arse-enal

dlofnep

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Sometimes it boils down to pure out right anti-semitism

You know, I post on an American MMA forum alot about politics in an off-topic section, and I am consistently accused of anti-semitism because I defend Palestine. I know you are not making accusations towards us; But that line is used so many times now, it's lost all meaning.

In one example, a thread was started posting propaganda pictures of Palestinian children throwing stones - so I replied with the Israeli t-shirts with pictures of a sniper sight aimed at a pregnant Palestinian woman (I'm sure you remember it, it was in the news).

I was instantly labelled an anti-semite. It seems Israel's only way of defending itself now is to attack the character of anyone who disagrees with it's policies. I usually take it in my stride, but it's annoying - when there are actual real anti-semites out there who just plainly hate Jewish people. I don't.

Nodin

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

As regards making all my posts "irrelivant", it just infuriates me to see how Irish people time and again bury their heads in the sand when it comes to Palestinians.
.

'bury their heads in the sand' with regards to what exactly? Is this building up to you falsely claiming they're 'nomads' and refusing to discuss the matter further outside the Military forum again?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Sometimes it boils down to pure out right anti-semitism,
.

Behold, the traditional Red Herring, worn and battered though it is.....

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

other's it comes down to somehow identifying with their plight with our's (usually these are SF/IRA sympathisers - understandable since each can also identify with terrorism).
.

...yes, well known Provos like Michael O'Dea, David Norris and Mary Robinson come to mind....

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

tried to terrorise not only Israel, but Jordan & Lebanon too
.

...when large groups of people are focibly displaced into other areas by another, conflict generally occurs soon after.

You wouldn't be saying Palestinians are uniquely 'evil', would you?

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

, but it was also Israel putting a new higher price tag on its enemies attacking it.
.

Same thing it did back in the 1950's, same thing it used do under Sharon, same thing it did in Lebanon. Absolutely nothing new about it.

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Btw, Kevin Joyce isn't irrelivant in all this. .

...but seemingly anyone killed by the Phalange/SLA or Israel is. Obviously my lack of military experience is showing, in that I don't know how one is worse than the other.

Belfast

turgon wrote: »

What do ye Palestinian sympathizers say about the reckless killing of innocent Israeli citizens?

And I say reckless not to be emotional, but being fair firing a rocket into another land without target, or blowing up a bus randomly, is being reckless.

If some one is were to supply the Palestinians with more accurate weapons and they could pick their targets would that make killing Israeli more acceptable?

The Saint

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

Woo Hoo, you weren't by chance at the same benefit night as I was in Portmarnock? (I was fairly hammered last night too).

As regards making all my posts "irrelivant", it just infuriates me to see how Irish people time and again bury their heads in the sand when it comes to Palestinians.

Sometimes it boils down to pure out right anti-semitism, other's it comes down to somehow identifying with their plight with our's (usually these are SF/IRA sympathisers - understandable since each can also identify with terrorism).

And others (you Saint) it boils down to education, and I am completely in agreement with you on most things. But you should also realise that the middle east under Balfour (thanks) was a massive land grab, the Pals done very badly out of it, tried to terrorise not only Israel, but Jordan & Lebanon too but of course you see this as being "irrelivant" now, why?.

In regards to the most recent war in Gaza, you know how much I opposed that war too and how it almost directly effected me. It was sickening & disgusting, but it was also Israel putting a new higher price tag on its enemies attacking it.

But back to the settlements, I'd support all moves to have them stopped too.

Btw, Kevin Joyce isn't irrelivant in all this. His body is used as a political pawn by the Palestinians in getting our government to go just that little bit further in our condemnation of Israeli retalitory actions with the slight hope that they might give us a little bit more of the jig-saw puzzle (the where abouts of Kevin Joyces young body, he was 18yrs old).

.

Nah, I was just out radomly getting pissed for the hell of it. One of those spur of the moment things.

The reasons why I state that these things are irrelivant is because the thread is about the settlements. Like all these threads they get derailed and end up encompassing every fascet of the conflict and round and round we go. It's pointless. The thread is about settlements. I'll discuss that. Other things are irrelivant to this thread. I'm not just saying this about you, most people do it in these threads and it quickly ends up having little to do with the original arguement.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

Nah, I was just out radomly getting pissed for the hell of it. One of those spur of the moment things.

The reasons why I state that these things are irrelivant is because the thread is about the settlements. Like all these threads they get derailed and end up encompassing every fascet of the conflict and round and round we go. It's pointless. The thread is about settlements. I'll discuss that. Other things are irrelivant to this thread. I'm not just saying this about you, most people do it in these threads and it quickly ends up having little to do with the original arguement.

+1

And with that I'll back out of it too.

For the record, your about the only one here who's view's on the subject I value.

Oh god my hangover

Nodin

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

+1

And with that I'll back out of it too.

Quelle Suprise!

Nodin

blackgold>> wrote: »

Hitler should have finished the job. But i guess he got to powerful for the bankers....

.

Reported.

blackgold>>

For what?

The Saint

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

+1

And with that I'll back out of it too.

For the record, your about the only one here who's view's on the subject I value.

Oh god my hangover

Cheers Mairt.

I'll continue discussing the settlements but I think the arguement has gone beyond that.

Yeah, I've a flaming hangover too. Doesn't help that I have to travel to Dublin later to go to head to Edingurgh see my team not play in the Heineken Cup final. :mad: I'm not a happy camper. I think my hangover just got worse after thinking about that.

Nodin

blackgold>> wrote: »

For what?

This.

Hitler should have finished the job. But i guess he got to powerful for the bankers....