Israel at it again!

blackgold>>

And?

ionix5891

so far we have:

* anyone pointing out the blatant Israeli lies being called anti-semitic?

what does criticizing a countries political and military aggression have to do with racism and religious discrimination? lets check the definition of

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also known as Judeophobia) is a term used to describe prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their religious/cultural/ethnic background.

* a military dude agreeing with killing of civilians, question for this person; have you served in a military and have you ever killed anyone? or do you just have a fetish for guns and murder?? maybe see a doctor eh?

* hitler should have finished what he started dude, this one is just an obvious flamebait

* drawing parallels between concentration camps and modern Palestine, unfortunately this one has disturbing similarities

* and finaly the obviously Pro Israel (not no mention of Jewish religion, Israel != Jewland) not addressing any of the points brought up in this debate, and instead screaming and kicking like little kids who got caught being naughty and they know it


now, all we need are the GIYUS propaganda bots to descend on this thread

and can the people defending Israel start answering the points please brought up, your arguments are very weak and not convincing

Scofflaw

blackgold>> wrote: »

And?

And you've earned yourself a two-week ban. At that I'm probably being too lenient.

moderately,
Scofflaw

IRISH RAIL

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131477

The pro palestinian side here seem to have sunk to a new low,

while some here seem to forget theres still settlements being dismantled and theres many more that will continue to be.
Its as usual completly ignored by the hardline left wing Al mawt Israel brigade that seem to have little else to do with there time.

meditraitor

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131477

The pro palestinian side here seem to have sunk to a new low,

while some here seem to forget theres still settlements being dismantled and theres many more that will continue to be.
Its as usual completly ignored by the hardline left wing Al mawt Israel brigade that seem to have little else to do with there time.

Can you elaborate on this statement, I would like to reply but Im not sure what you mean.

The forces were more considerate of private belongings than they were in the past, removing them from the houses before destroying the structures. One car was taken from the site on a truck.

How very considerate of the IDF.

Its a pity they are not so considerate when dealing with their neighbours property

Ping Chow Chi

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131477

The pro palestinian side here seem to have sunk to a new low,

while some here seem to forget theres still settlements being dismantled and theres many more that will continue to be.
Its as usual completly ignored by the hardline left wing Al mawt Israel brigade that seem to have little else to do with there time.

It would be interesting to get the net figures of houses built in new settlements compared to the dismantled ones if you could get them figures for us Irish Rail?

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131477

The pro palestinian side here seem to have sunk to a new low,

while some here seem to forget theres still settlements being dismantled and theres many more that will continue to be.
Its as usual completly ignored by the hardline left wing Al mawt Israel brigade that seem to have little else to do with there time.

What about the huge official colonial expansions that have been in the news recently? Your talking about a tiny little one being dismantled in the link you provide, but to be frank it means very little, when you take the following examples into account:

Israeli municipal council and settlers plan to build over Palestinian East Jerusalem neighborhood

Israel has secret plan to thwart division of Jerusalem

So, as can be seen Israel colonial expansion continues on and the occasionaly showy dismantling of a tiny settlement is pretty meaningless. When Israel at a bare minimum stops all expansion of everyone one of them, and make plans to dismantle them as well, then I will take them seriously.

The following article I think is the most damning:
Settlement expansion seeing biggest boost since 2003

So the one tiny settlement being dismantled is laughable. To present it as some kind of progress from Israel is even more laughable, when plenty more land is being stolen elsewhere. Israel tried to pull this nonsense before with Gaza, they got rid of some colonies and they built a whole lot more to make up for it, in the West Bank. People aren't going to fall for the same thing again.

IRISH RAIL

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

It would be interesting to get the net figures of houses built in new settlements compared to the dismantled ones if you could get them figures for us Irish Rail?

theres been quite a lot of settlements dismantled and you know it when i get back later ill google the figures ok this one was tiny seven houses and a temple but there have been bigger a lot bigger. Ehud Barak is one MK who believes in stopping settlements.

IRISH RAIL

meditraitor wrote: »

How very considerate of the IDF.

Its a pity they are not so considerate when dealing with their neighbours property

WHAT LIKE CLEANING UP FOR THEM LIKE THEY DID IN CAST LEAD???

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

WHAT LIKE CLEANING UP FOR THEM LIKE THEY DID IN CAST LEAD???

Mudering Women and children and destroying the civlian infrastructure is cleaning up? Interesting way to put it.

wes

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

theres been quite a lot of settlements dismantled and you know it when i get back later ill google the figures ok this one was tiny seven houses and a temple but there have been bigger a lot bigger. Ehud Barak is one MK who believes in stopping settlements.

From Haaretz:
Barak approved settlement expansion despite Road Map

Strange the guy you seem to think is against colonies, actually approved a whole bunch of new ones. Your claims are nothing short of hilarous.

ionix5891

say is IRISH RAIL actually Irish ?

dlofnep

ionix5891 wrote: »

say is IRISH RAIL actually Irish ?

Location: Israel/Ireland

ionix5891

dlofnep wrote: »

Location: Israel/Ireland

no Ireland/Israel :pac:?

i wonder why one is taken higher precedence than the other :cool:

Jesus1222

So I'm guessing that your opinion is:

1 - Israel is evil. ( Check)

Plucky little Israel is an extraordinary democracy. They've done nothing to justify any criticism. You're
anti-Semitic.

2 - Israel is kinda like the Nazis. Ironic huh? A lot of things are kinda like the Holocaust. Profound. (Check)

The Holocaust is a religious event of such indescribable significance that no comparisons can be made with events of today even in passing comments, no criticism of Israel's actions can be made using the Holocaust as a benchmark, only justifications of Israel's actions can be made.

3 - Its really all the fault of the US and their evil war machine. Lets talk about Iraq.

Israel and the US barely know each other. They might have met a party last year but didn't really get on.

4 - Lets talk about Iran and their missiles.

Iran is evil. Evil I tells ya! (cue sinister background music)

5 - Why is is so bad to let a regime of clerics on an apocalyptic mission from God have nukes if liberal democratic regimes with checks and balances have them? HYPOCRISY, J'accuse!

Iran is evil. Muslims are irrational and self-destructive. The Ayatollah talks to God ffs. Israel is a liberal democracy would definitely hesitate to take the whole world down with it. They'd pause to think and give it quite a bit of consideration. George Bush and Benjamin Netenyahu now, there's two men you can trust.

6 - Lets whip out the history books and start figuring out if Israel actually has a right to exist. If we can prove it doesnt, itll solve the problem \0/

The State of Israel goes back 14,000 years. It predates time. If I don't get to finish this post is because I'm off in a minute to reclaim my ancestors' land, designated as such by God, in the Basque country somewhere. Not sure where exactly. Might actually be in Switzerland. I was forced to leave there by Asiatic invaders 7,000 years ago. Therefore I own it. It's my human right.

8 - Who cares? Israel is evil....

ANTI-SEMITE! RARARARARARARRARA....

Jesus1222

Jayleen Hot Underwear wrote: »

In regards to the most recent war in Gaza, you know how much I opposed that war too and how it almost directly effected me. It was sickening & disgusting, but it was also Israel putting a new higher price tag on its enemies attacking it.

My foot. Mealy mouthing doesn't count.

Btw, Kevin Joyce isn't irrelivant in all this. His body is used as a political pawn by the Palestinians in getting our government

Please elaborate.

to go just that little bit further in our condemnation of Israeli retalitory actions with the slight hope that they might give us a little bit more of the jig-saw puzzle (the where abouts of Kevin Joyces young body, he was 18yrs old).
.

I've said before, I find it both sad and alarming that somebody who claims to care so much about his colleagues would through to such extraordinary intellectual loops to justify their murderers. It's your opinion Israel retaliated. There's also a question of degree. I could push you to the ground, you taking out a knife and stabbing me and my family to death in response can't be considered "retaliation". You're already dealing with a psychopath.

turgon

Well talking pure motives, wouldnt it be fair to say that Hamas are more evil in their motives than Israel, as proven that they recklessly fire missiles in not giving a crap who they hit.

Lets face it, if Hamas had the army Israel had they wouldnt be content to invade and kill 1,000. They would have every jewish man women and child they came across killed.

So motivation wise, Hamas are more evil it would seem.

brianthebard

Apart from being pure conjecture, you're also wrong. If we're talking motives then Hamas are in a battle to exist, whereas Israel is in a battle to colonise.

turgon

Ok I didnt make myself clear enough.

I talk about goals in battle. The Israeli armies goal is to get rid of people attacking them. And obviously they kill far too many civilians while at it.

But Hamas just want to kill full stop. They dont care if they kill little kids - why else would they fire rockets randomly into Israel?

brianthebard

Hamas fire rockets because that is the tactic they've been reduced to, you think they don't know its ineffective? As they've become steadily more hemmed in by the settlements and walls, this has become their only option, which plays into Israel's hands because it makes people think exactly what you are saying now. Israel is the one bulldozing through people's homes, you don't think that tactic is more abhorrent? Israel is attempting to wipe Palestine and Palestinians off the map.

dlofnep

Turgon - How many israeli children has Hamas killed, and how many Palestinian children has the IDF killed?

And, I don't see anyone in Hamas going around with these kind of T-Shirts on.

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

Ok I didnt make myself clear enough.

Oh, you absolutely have. You're an Israeli apologist, and quite clear about it.

wes

turgon wrote: »

Ok I didnt make myself clear enough.

I talk about goals in battle. The Israeli armies goal is to get rid of people attacking them. And obviously they kill far too many civilians while at it.

But Hamas just want to kill full stop. They dont care if they kill little kids - why else would they fire rockets randomly into Israel?

Well, you see Hamas while a repugnant group are in a fight for survival against Israel. You see Israel uses Men, Women and Children as weapons, you see that what colonizations basically boils down to. Using people as weapons against the pre-existing indigenous population.

You see Israel's ideology is all about ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, for no other reason than they were not born Jews.

You can see this bit from a article in the Guardian that quotes Theodor Herzl, who is considered the father of Zionism:

From Guardian.co.uk
A new exodus for the Middle East?

---

SNIP

---

As early as 1895, Theodor Herzl, the prophet and founder of Zionism, wrote in his diary in anticipation of the establishment of the Jewish state: "We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country ... The removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

---

SNIP

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From the very start Zionists wanted to drive the Palestinians out of there homes, for no other reason than being born the wrong race. I fail to see how the Israeli's can be considered any better than Hamas, considering that there ideology is inherently racist.

There is also the many comments of made by Israeli leaders during the recent Gaza conflict:

From Al Jazeera English:
Who will save Israel from itself?

---

SNIP

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War crimes admission

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

Indeed, in reviewing statements by Israeli military planners leading up to the invasion, it is clear that there was a well thought out decision to go after Gaza's civilian infrastructure - and with it, civilians.

The following quote from an interview with Major-General Gadi Eisenkot that appeared in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October, is telling:

"We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases," he said.

"This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorised."

Causing "immense damage and destruction" and considering entire villages "military bases" is absolutely prohibited under international law.

Eisenkot's description of this planning in light of what is now unfolding in Gaza is a clear admission of conspiracy and intent to commit war crimes, and when taken with the comments above, and numerous others, renders any argument by Israel that it has tried to protect civilians and is not engaging in disproportionate force unbelievable.

---

SNIP

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Now there are few pretty messed up things said by Israeli military and politicians. The bit in bold above, shows Israel intentions was very clearly to attack Palestinians civilians. There is plenty more information out there from Amnesty and other Human Rights groups that will say that Israel deliberately attacks civilians. Now Israel may deny this (despite the fact the basically admit as much elsewhere), but there denials are worthless. Actions speaks far louder than words and Israel has brutally murdered and oppressed the Palestinians, for not other reason than an accident of birth. The most recent act of state terrorism where they are punishing 1.5 million people, in a obscene act of collective punishment, illustrates that for all Israel ridiculous denials, they could care less for the Palestinians civilian populace.

**EDIT**
Now, I don't think either side is evil. Thats more of a religious discussion and discussing "evil" would be more appropriate to one of the religion forums imho.

Both sides are Human, and that basically means they both a huge capacity for pointless brutality as well as enormous compassion.

The way I look at it is simple. The Israeli's are the colonists who attacked the Palestinians, and they are the ones who are desperately fighting back. Now I personally am against tactics used by some Palestinian groups e.g Hamas, but there cause is a just one, there fighting to take back what is rightfully theres, like any other indigenous population would.

The Zionists are colonists, who went to Mandate Palestine, with intention of setting up there own state and to achieve this by ethnically cleansing the pre-existing indigenous population. There tactics (similar to what Palestinians groups use) was to first start with terrorism, and during 1948 this escalated to massacres, terror and rape, to drive the Palestinians out. I personally find both Israel's aims and there methods as wrong and hence why I would consider them far more responsible for the current mess.

Now, to end the violence both sides need to stop, and it doesn't matter who started what, when it comes to stopping the violence, but in my mind, the Palestinians are basically being screwed by even the best case 2 state solution. All of them should be allowed to return and everyone should live in a single state. Of course, this solution may seem out there, but with Israels continued colonization efforts they may very well kill the 2 state solution, making a single state solution the only viable one and I think it may already be too late for a 2 state solution already.

BlaasForRafa

brianthebard wrote: »

Apart from being pure conjecture, you're also wrong. If we're talking motives then Hamas are in a battle to exist, whereas Israel is in a battle to colonise.

Israel has been in a constant battle to exist since the foundation of the state.

ionix5891

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel has been in a constant battle to exist since the foundation of the state.

last i checked Israel hasnt been attacked by neighbours in few decades now (hey maybe they got the message), tho Israel did have a little "culling" session of the locals only a few months ago, no harm there those pesky Muslims(and Christians) are all terrorists i tell ya

and its borders have been set in stone by the UN and so on

so to return to subject at hand

* why are they building a separation wall well outiside of its borders?
* why are they allowing its citizens to colonise land outside of its borders?

eagerly awaiting on an answer

dlofnep

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel has been in a constant battle to exist since the foundation of the state.

At the expense of another state.. The only constant battle is Israel's attempts to widen it's territory and create illegal settlements.

turgon

So questioning the Palestinian militants makes me an Israeli sympathizer.

My point was that if Hamas were in the militaristic position Israel were, with such an advanced army, they might do a lot worse than Israel do to Palestinians when they invade.

Of course, the leftie freedom fighters, dont understand the meaning of "worst." It is relativistic. If I say one side is worse than the other ye automatically take it that I am praising the other, which Im not.

I think the actions of Israel are a downright disgrace. But that doesnt mean that I think that Hamas are bad too.

Anyway, jokes on me for even coming on to a thread like this and trying to spark some discussion.

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

So questioning the Palestinian militants makes me an Israeli sympathizer.

No, it doesn't. But labelling Hamas as not caring about children, while trying to display the IDF as carebears does make you a sympathizer.

I ask you again - Since Hamas are baby killers, and the IDF care so much about Palestinian children:

1) Post figures of the amount of children killed by the IDF in the past year, and the children Hamas have killed in the past year.

2) Explain this T-shirt, which obviously shows love and respect towards pregnant Palestinian women - worn by Israeli soldiers.

brianthebard

turgon wrote: »

So questioning the Palestinian militants makes me an Israeli sympathizer.

My point was that if Hamas were in the militaristic position Israel were, with such an advanced army, they might do a lot worse than Israel do to Palestinians when they invade.

Of course, the leftie freedom fighters, dont understand the meaning of "worst." It is relativistic. If I say one side is worse than the other ye automatically take it that I am praising the other, which Im not.

I think the actions of Israel are a downright disgrace. But that doesnt mean that I think that Hamas are bad too.

Anyway, jokes on me for even coming on to a thread like this and trying to spark some discussion.

I don't think you're pro-Israel, I just think you're wrong to suggest there's any way of knowing what Hamas would do if the roles were reversed. After all their existence has come about through a series of events which made guerilla warfare necessary in the eyes of its members and a large part of the Palestinian population. Remove the Israeli aggression and you remove a huge reason why Hamas exist.

But thanks for getting the leftie freedom fighter dig in, that was a nice touch.

turgon

Once again, my question was relativistic. Israel makes more of an attempt to not kill children than Hamas does?