Israel at it again!

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

Once again, my question was relativistic. Israel makes more of an attempt to not kill children than Hamas does?

No, it doesn't. The figures dispute this quite clearly. T-shirts worn by members of the IDF which display a target on a pregnant Palestinian women stating - "One shot, two kills" does not display an attempt to not kill children.

The IDF does not have one IOTA of concern for Palestinian civilians. Their death toll speaks for themselves.

turgon

But Im not talking about death tolls, Im well aware Israel is far worse in that regard. Im talking about the thoughts going on in these peoples brains.

And two guys wearing a t-shirt means crap. I doubt the Israeli army has only these two guys in it.

rantsatrandom

Morally what Hamas are doing is wrong
But to survive....they are right. Perfctly right.
When placed in a position were peaceful resistance hasn't worked what do you expect people to do? allow themselves to be wiped out??
It may seem simplistic but in truth thats what it boils down too.

brianthebard

turgon wrote: »

Once again, my question was relativistic. Israel makes more of an attempt to not kill children than Hamas does?

Israeli use of white phosphorus shows this to be grossly untrue.

turgon

Ok fair enough, but if Hamas had white phosphorus would they use it worse?

paulaa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131477

The pro palestinian side here seem to have sunk to a new low,

while some here seem to forget theres still settlements being dismantled and theres many more that will continue to be.
Its as usual completly ignored by the hardline left wing Al mawt Israel brigade that seem to have little else to do with there time.

They make a show of dismantling the smallest settlements,(to keep the US onside), usually where the settlers are living in caravans and containers then the settlers rebuild them again.
In another few years Israel will be run by settlers because the likes of Barak don't have the guts to go against them

"Maoz Esther resident Avraham Sandak said 40 people had been living at the hilltop site northeast of Ramallah and they would start work immediately to replace the demolished buildings.

"We hope to sleep here tonight and we hope, with God's help, to rebuild it, not like before but bigger," he said. "
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1087132.html

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but if Hamas had white phosphorus would they use it worse?

I don't dispute that Hamas would use any means necessary in order to achieve their goal, which is to rid a foreign oppressor from their land. And I don't think anybody disputes it.

But you DO dispute Israeli intentions. It is alright for you to say that they care about Palestinian life - but the figures show that the opposite is true. How can you still hold a straight face and tell us that the IDF cares?

They don't. All they care about is supporting the Zionist regime through unfathomable violence. They are scum. Are Hamas also scum? Absolutely. But at least they know what they stand for.

brianthebard

turgon wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but if Hamas had white phosphorus would they use it worse?

Assuming they used it? Do you mean use it in a more destructive way? I'm not exactly military minded so this may not be accurate, but to be most damaging to the population it would have to be used over a built up area, and nowhere in that region is more built up than gaza. So hamas would find it difficult to have a similar effect. Also this shows the disregard of Israel for Palestinian lives that they would use WP as a weapon over this terribly densely populated area.

turgon

dlofnep wrote: »

How can you still hold a straight face and tell us that the IDF cares?

Where did I say that?

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

Ok I didnt make myself clear enough.

I talk about goals in battle. The Israeli armies goal is to get rid of people attacking them. And obviously they kill far too many civilians while at it.

But Hamas just want to kill full stop. They dont care if they kill little kids - why else would they fire rockets randomly into Israel?

That kinda of comment would suggest it ^^

turgon

How so?

Once again, your trying to pull the old "if your not with us your against us" move.

paulaa

turgon wrote: »

But Im not talking about death tolls, Im well aware Israel is far worse in that regard. Im talking about the thoughts going on in these peoples brains.

And two guys wearing a t-shirt means crap. I doubt the Israeli army has only these two guys in it.

turgon, the thoughts in the Israeli's minds (not all of them) is that the Palestinians, men, women and children are sub-human,it makes them easier to kill, humilate and steal their belongings. They are an obstacle to the dream of Greater Israel or the Biblical "Eretz Yisrael", just like Milosevic's idea of a "Greater Serbia".

Israel and the US created Hamas as a foil to Arafat and the PLO, a ploy that has backfired spectacularly. The West then backed Abbas as their puppet "leader" in the West Bank, then Israel humiliated and disregarded him and kept building settlements under his nose. Hammas saw what he got for his "moderate" stance and it radicalized them even more. They don't trust Israel's politicians to stick to any agreement for peace and the 2 year siege of Gaza has only made things worse.

As to the t-shirts, a whole batallion wore them after their little party in Gaza and they are supposed to have been censured for it. It just shows the mindset of the troops and how they are being brainwashed to de-humanize the women and children of Palestine.

turgon

Are you somehow suggesting that the Palestinians (not all of them) dont treat Israelis as sub-human?

paulaa

turgon wrote: »

Are you somehow suggesting that the Palestinians (not all of them) dont treat Israelis as sub-human?

I don't know if that is directed to me or not but anyway, the Palestinians see the Israeli's as their occupiers and oppressors, I would imagine fear and loathing would be their thoughts.

Joey the lips

turgon wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but if Hamas had white phosphorus would they use it worse?

I honestly believe there is an element on boards that just argue points for the sake of being arguementitive. Surly you cannot believe this to be a senseable comment! Its totally based on an assumption that while accepted cannot be proven so there for cannot be discussed! It follows on from your earlier comments that prostitution is not exploitation of women despit being proven!!!!

I am sure if Hamass had 7 harrier jump jets they would use them as well.

This is not the point!

The point is Isreal is in a land grab at the moment and will use any illegal or legal means to get that land. By the way if you honestly believe that amnestly international (Which you do!) is incorrect in its condemnation of Isreal and you have no factual information to back Your arguements up what does that say of your opinions and the opinions of the "Yes isreal is right campagn"

Nodin

turgon wrote: »

Once again, my question was relativistic. Israel makes more of an attempt to not kill children than Hamas does?

Well- going on the number of dead children - no, they don't. They have far better PR though.

wes

turgon wrote: »

Once again, my question was relativistic. Israel makes more of an attempt to not kill children than Hamas does?

Well according to the people in there Government, military, and the founder of there state ideology, of which I provided quote's in my earlier post and that convenitly seem's to have been missed. They very clearly don't care. There own words are damining in there own right, but Israel actions hammer the point home. They don't care about Palestinian civilians. There country is set up for the specific purpose to kick them out of there homes.

So you can try and claim Israel "cares" till the cows come home, they clearly don't. There words show this and there actions (which are worth more than all there words put together) illistrates it pretty clearly that they could care less.

Here, I will post some of the same quotes I did earlier:

From Al Jazeera English:
Who will save Israel from itself?

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SNIP

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War crimes admission

Additionally, numerous flippant remarks by senior Israeli politicians and generals, including Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, refusing to make a distinction between civilian people and institutions and fighters - "Hamas doesn't ... and neither should we" is how Livni puts it - are rightly being seen as admissions of war crimes.

Indeed, in reviewing statements by Israeli military planners leading up to the invasion, it is clear that there was a well thought out decision to go after Gaza's civilian infrastructure - and with it, civilians.

The following quote from an interview with Major-General Gadi Eisenkot that appeared in the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth in October, is telling:

"We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction. From our perspective these [the villages] are military bases," he said.

"This isn't a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorised."

Causing "immense damage and destruction" and considering entire villages "military bases" is absolutely prohibited under international law.

Eisenkot's description of this planning in light of what is now unfolding in Gaza is a clear admission of conspiracy and intent to commit war crimes, and when taken with the comments above, and numerous others, renders any argument by Israel that it has tried to protect civilians and is not engaging in disproportionate force unbelievable.

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SNIP

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It seems pretty clear to me that Israel is purposefully attacking civilians, as per the bolded quote above. Its seems bizare that people would claim otherwise, in the light of what is said above and the actions during the most recent Gaza conflict.

Can you explain away the words above? Can you explain away the white phorporous and all the dead Women and Children and other civlians? I think it would require a herculean effort to come up with various excuses for this and even then they would be clear nonsense, as the simple answer is the right one. Israel could care less about Palestinians, regardless of them being a militant or some poor kid.

turgon

Ok I not disputing the fact that Israelis have killed more innocents. When it comes to death tolls Israel are far far far worse.

Im just trying to start a discussion on whats going on inside the IDFs and Hamas' heads.

For example take paulaa's quote:

paulaa wrote: »

turgon, the thoughts in the Israeli's minds (not all of them) is that the Palestinians, men, women and children are sub-human,it makes them easier to kill, humilate and steal their belongings.

Totally true.

Now lets edit it a little:

paulaa wrote: »

turgon, the thoughts in the Israeli's Palestinians minds (not all of them) is that the Palestinians Israeli, men, women and children are sub-human,it makes them easier to kill, humilate and steal their belongings.

Once again, totally true.

I never said that the IDF cared. I was simply trying to discuss the possibility that the care slightly more than Hamas. SO I was saying that if roles had reversed last year - and Hamas had gone into Israeli territory would the death toll have been much much higher?

Assuming of course the conflict stayed between the two. I think we all agree that if an attack of the severity of Israels attack was made on Israel by Hamas then we'd have the US in Israel in a shot.

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

I never said that the IDF cared. I was simply trying to discuss the possibility that the care slightly more than Hamas. SO I was saying that if roles had reversed last year - and Hamas had gone into Israeli territory would the death toll have been much much higher?

If the roles were reversed, the conflict wouldn't exist in the first place, because the Palestinian people would have been able to defend displacement.

But back to your question - what goes on in their minds? Maybe you should ask yourself that and it might give you an answer as to why Hamas do what they do.

I understand the concept of defense when it comes to Israel - but what they act on is not defense, it is aggressive offense.

brianthebard

turgon wrote: »

I never said that the IDF cared. I was simply trying to discuss the possibility that the care slightly more than Hamas. SO I was saying that if roles had reversed last year - and Hamas had gone into Israeli territory would the death toll have been much much higher?

Assuming of course the conflict stayed between the two. I think we all agree that if an attack of the severity of Israels attack was made on Israel by Hamas then we'd have the US in Israel in a shot.

But you've provided no evidence that the IDF might care more than Hamas, so you would have to do that soon if you want your argument to remain credible. Also how do you know what's going on in the minds of Hamas?

paulaa

turgon wrote: »

Ok I not disputing the fact that Israelis have killed more innocents. When it comes to death tolls Israel are far far far worse.

Im just trying to start a discussion on whats going on inside the IDFs and Hamas' heads.

For example take paulaa's quote:

Totally true.

Now lets edit it a little:

Once again, totally true.

I never said that the IDF cared. I was simply trying to discuss the possibility that the care slightly more than Hamas. SO I was saying that if roles had reversed last year - and Hamas had gone into Israeli territory would the death toll have been much much higher?

Assuming of course the conflict stayed between the two. I think we all agree that if an attack of the severity of Israels attack was made on Israel by Hamas then we'd have the US in Israel in a shot.

Morning turgon, Isn't your question academic because Hamas are never going to have the manpower or the weaponry that Israel has. They also would never have the backing of a superpower like the US to protect them against the International community with vetoes etc.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that , love em or hate em, Hamas were democratically elected in what the West said at the time, was a fair election. Israel didn't like the fact that their pliable puppet, Abbas, wasn't in charge in Gaza and slapped a malicious and inhuman siege on the people. Despite the propaganda, Hamas were looking after the people of Gaza. They had set up clinics, co-operatives etc and generally tried to organise the system to give the people economic freedom. Israel destroyed that and radicalized Hamas even more.

Hamas have done exactly what Israel has been doing for years, get rid of the opposition by assassinations and murder, when they took over the Gaza strip from Fatah by force. IMO one is no better than the other.

turgon

paulaa wrote: »

Morning turgon, Isn't your question academic because Hamas are never going to have the manpower or the weaponry that Israel has.

Yeah an academic question. I was just trying to put a human mind frame slant on the topic rather than resorting to the usual "**** Israel," "**** Palestine," "go **** yourself" crap we always get on these threads.

So in terms of death toll Israel is worse. I was trying to probe that respect for human life is worse in Hamas, In their brains.

Its obviously not going to work. As I said, jokes on me.

paulaa

turgon wrote: »

Yeah an academic question. I was just trying to put a human mind frame slant on the topic rather than resorting to the usual "**** Israel," "**** Palestine," "go **** yourself" crap we always get on these threads.

So in terms of death toll Israel is worse. I was trying to probe that respect for human life is worse in Hamas, In their brains.

Its obviously not going to work. As I said, jokes on me.

No, not really. It's not really quantifiable but I'd hazard a guess that the 2 sides are very close to each other in their mindset.

Ping Chow Chi

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

theres been quite a lot of settlements dismantled and you know it when i get back later ill google the figures ok this one was tiny seven houses and a temple but there have been bigger a lot bigger. Ehud Barak is one MK who believes in stopping settlements.

Still would like these figures please, if its not too much trouble?

I could find this on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

West bank pop (settlers)

1993 111600
2004 234487
2006 282400

If you add the almost 8,000 who left Gaza onto the West Bank figures it would still suggest that the settlement process is still going at quite a rate and whatever settlements have been dismantled are small compared to the expansions that have been allowed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061358.html

The above is interesting, in that Israel did dismantle a settlement in the Westbank, only to move the settlers to a brand new settlement in the Westbank. More of moving the settlement rather than dismantling it.

paulaa

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

Still would like these figures please, if its not too much trouble?

I could find this on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

West bank pop (settlers)

1993 111600
2004 234487
2006 282400

If you add the almost 8,000 who left Gaza onto the West Bank figures it would still suggest that the settlement process is still going at quite a rate and whatever settlements have been dismantled are small compared to the expansions that have been allowed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061358.html

The above is interesting, in that Israel did dismantle a settlement in the Westbank, only to move the settlers to a brand new settlement in the Westbank. More of moving the settlement rather than dismantling it.

I think the recent figure given for the number of settlers in the WB was close to 400,000. I can't find the article now but I think it was in Haaretz.

Also this from Haaretz today about how the illegal settlements are protected by the IDF and how they confiscate land and declare it a closed military zone. Then they invoke some obscure law from the Ottoman era stating that land that hasn't been worked for 3 years can be expropriated.
Typical of the underhand methods used to further the expansionists policy

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1087353.html

Sand

The point is Isreal is in a land grab at the moment

Israel is engaged in a land grab. Hamas is engaged in a land grab. Israel uses despicable methods. Palestine uses despicable methods. Israeli civillians suffer. Palestinian civillians suffer. Israelis bring about their own suffering by supporting their states course of action. Palestinians bring about their own suffering by supporting their states course of action.

Is there ever a point where you throw your hands in the air and say "A plague upon both your houses!" and leave it at that?

Please say no, Im looking to hit page 20.

wes

Sand wrote: »

Israel is engaged in a land grab. Hamas is engaged in a land grab. Israel uses despicable methods. Palestine uses despicable methods. Israeli civillians suffer. Palestinian civillians suffer. Israelis bring about their own suffering by supporting their states course of action. Palestinians bring about their own suffering by supporting their states course of action.

Is there ever a point where you throw your hands in the air and say "A plague upon both your houses!" and leave it at that?

Please say no, Im looking to hit page 20.

I am sure we can do better than 20.

Honest question, these threads seem to really annoy you. Why the hell do you post in them?!?

brianthebard

Because world weary cynicism is what's in these days wes, didn't you get the meme?

turgon

Sand made the poor mistake of trying to get the Palestinian sympathizers to re-contemplate the black and whiteness with which they see the situation.

The world is never black and white, it is always gray.

brianthebard

Yeah, that's what he did. I suppose that's the wonderful message behind your posts too?