Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Israel at it again!
Options
Comments
-
It's not that this is an academic question, it is utterly abstract. The word toll fits badly into this question in that the question is so unquantifiable except through imagination or dreams.I never said that the IDF cared. I was simply trying to discuss the possibility that the care slightly more than Hamas. SO I was saying that if roles had reversed last year - and Hamas had gone into Israeli territory would the death toll have been much much higher?
You are trying to decide who cares more, or less. This leads us largely to the complex issue of how aware either side are of the damage they are causing to the other.
For the combatants, this is not the first thing in their minds. The first thing is victory - they don't squirm at slaughter they are seeking it out. Your question is unanswerable, and unfortunately irrelevant.
The US is in Israel with its US$, and a considerable number of expatriates with Upper East Side accents call themselves Israeli. There's a schizophrenia in Jerusalem.I think we all agree that if an attack of the severity of Israels attack was made on Israel by Hamas then we'd have the US in Israel in a shot.0 -
Sand made the poor mistake of trying to get the Palestinian sympathizers to re-contemplate the black and whiteness with which they see the situation.
The world is never black and white, it is always gray.
Sure, your right there, but by the same token, not everyone is always equally at fault for things.
I can't speak for everyone here, but I don't see the situation as black and white, but I honestly doubt thats the real reason behind some peoples posts, especially considering things said here in the past.0 -
Israelis hail from backgrounds all over the world. If these people you single out as 'plastics' have citizenship of the country then they are Israeli regardless.a considerable number of expatriates with Upper East Side accents call themselves Israeli. There's a schizophrenia in Jerusalem.
As for your comment on Jerusalem, well whats new about that? It has been multi-faceted for centuries under various occupations (Ottoman, Jordanian, Israeli) :rolleyes:0 -
I am sure we can do better than 20.
Honest question, these threads seem to really annoy you. Why the hell do you post in them?!?
Why do you go through the entire thread thanking every pro Palestine/anti Israeli post? On every one of these type of threads. I mean, Im glad youre doing it because it confirms one of the predictions I made back on page one. But why? Are they all good posts?
As to why I posted there it was an exercise in futility clearly. Why did you ignore my point and only offer a crappy "oooh im sure I can get to page 20" type response?
Lets face it. Both crowds are a shower of bastards when they want to be, both crowds have civillians that suffer, and both crowds support the conflict that brings about the suffering of themselves and others. You say house bulldozing, I say suicide bombing. You say artillery shelling, I say rocket attacks. You say wall building, I say ax attacks.
And it goes on and on and on with the "discussion" and trading of examples of whose more evil, and by extension who more good. And never is the correct resolution reached - they are both heavily involved in a bitter conflict and are both capable of evil acts. Neither of them are "good", neither of them deserve this football team like support from afar.
All these threads serve is the need for two sets of football fans to clash and reafirm their loyalty to some idealised view of one set of people in this conflict, in an almost ritualistic fashion at this point. Theyre not even about the conflict.Sure, your right there, but by the same token, not everyone is always equally at fault for things.
Yes, yes they are equally at fault. Why do these threads cause such passionate support of a cause where it is clear that at best the argument is they are only 96% as evil as the other crowd?0 -
Yes, that's a big part of the irony.Serenity Now! wrote: »Israelis hail from backgrounds all over the world.
There's nothing new about it, Jerusalem's identity crisis is a psychosis that is too old.As for your comment on Jerusalem, well whats new about that? It has been multi-faceted for centuries under various occupations (Ottoman, Jordanian, Israeli)
I have some sympathy with Sand for being sick of these threads because while the topic is engaging and should be engaged with, it's easy to lose faith and wonder if a mass evacuation and wiping the place off of the face of the earth would not be a better alternative after all. One would almost be forgiven for thinking that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had a point in that regard.
It would, in reality, be a catastrophe for Judaism and Islam to just abandon Jerusalem and the Holy Land, but the conflict is doing both faiths an equal dis-service.0 -
Advertisement
-
Why do you go through the entire thread thanking every pro Palestine/anti Israeli post? On every one of these type of threads. I mean, Im glad youre doing it because it confirms one of the predictions I made back on page one. But why? Are they all good posts?
Yeah, I agree with the posts and think there good, hence why I thank them. I think it funny that you actually give a crap about who I thank, tbh.As to why I posted there it was an exercise in futility clearly. Why did you ignore my point and only offer a crappy "oooh im sure I can get to page 20" type response?
Well, I gave your comment the reply it deserved. You clearly don't like these threads and yet you come into them, for the sole reason to complain about them and complain about every other poster. What exactly do you expect, when you take such a position?Lets face it. Both crowds are a shower of bastards when they want to be, both crowds have civillians that suffer, and both crowds support the conflict that brings about the suffering of themselves and others. You say house bulldozing, I say suicide bombing. You say artillery shelling, I say rocket attacks. You say wall building, I say ax attacks.
And it goes on and on and on with the "discussion" and trading of examples of whose more evil, and by extension who more good. And never is the correct resolution reached - they are both heavily involved in a bitter conflict and are both capable of evil acts. Neither of them are "good", neither of them deserve this football team like support from afar.
All these threads serve is the need for two sets of football fans to clash and reafirm their loyalty to some idealised view of one set of people in this conflict, in an almost ritualistic fashion at this point. Theyre not even about the conflict.
Except, this isn't really accurate. The vast majority posters, positions are far more nuanced than the caricature your presenting.Yes, yes they are equally at fault. Why do these threads cause such passionate support of a cause where it is clear that at best the argument is they are only 96% as evil as the other crowd?
Well, no there not. The occupier is clearly more responsible, as all violence is due to the occupation and the occupier is responsible for the occupation, hence why they imho take more of the blame. Of course the other side is hardly innocent either btw. Oh, and I don't consider either side evil. In fact, there is only a couple of posters who actually mentioned evil at all and your one of them.
What I find funny is that you have your own position, just like every other person on this thread, but unlike most people in the thread, you actually spend more time going on about other posters, rather than the topic we are discussing.
Basically people here disagree with you and rather than try and defend your position like every other poster and you discuss the topic, you rather talk about other posters, on account of them not agreeing with you.0 -
all violence is due to the occupation and the occupier is responsible for the occupation
Without supporting the violent means to whatever any of the three sides involved have done, the above is a lazy monocular statement that doesn't even attempt to cover each side's agendae or what has happened and why.0 -
Why do you go through the entire thread thanking every pro Palestine/anti Israeli post? On every one of these type of threads. I mean, Im glad youre doing it because it confirms one of the predictions I made back on page one. But why? Are they all good posts?
As to why I posted there it was an exercise in futility clearly. Why did you ignore my point and only offer a crappy "oooh im sure I can get to page 20" type response?
Lets face it. Both crowds are a shower of bastards when they want to be, both crowds have civillians that suffer, and both crowds support the conflict that brings about the suffering of themselves and others. You say house bulldozing, I say suicide bombing. You say artillery shelling, I say rocket attacks. You say wall building, I say ax attacks.
And it goes on and on and on with the "discussion" and trading of examples of whose more evil, and by extension who more good. And never is the correct resolution reached - they are both heavily involved in a bitter conflict and are both capable of evil acts. Neither of them are "good", neither of them deserve this football team like support from afar.
All these threads serve is the need for two sets of football fans to clash and reafirm their loyalty to some idealised view of one set of people in this conflict, in an almost ritualistic fashion at this point. Theyre not even about the conflict.
Yes, yes they are equally at fault. Why do these threads cause such passionate support of a cause where it is clear that at best the argument is they are only 96% as evil as the other crowd?
Sand if you're fed up of these threads why do you torture yourself by reading them. To try to discourage others from debating is pathetic because you don't want to. Pass on by if it annoys you so much.
I have been following this mess in the ME for 30 years or more and I'm not going to stop debating it now because Israeli apologists only want their side of the story to be told. If people are being oppressed and brutalised I'm not going to stay quiet because vested interests are afraid they'll lose the sympathies they gained from WW2 and have played on and benefited from ever since.
There is no parity with the 2 sides of this conflict and the oppressed deserve a voice which has been silenced for too long.0 -
-
ouch...you didn't just... eh you're on you're own on that one.
Why ? Israel has been protected by the US vetoes in the UN and has never had to answer for the human rights abuses that she perpetrates against the Palestinians every day of the week. The EU countries have very seldom censured Israel either and when they have they are very quickly reminded on the Shoah/ Holocaust . Never any mention of the other 6 million who died in the camps, the disabled, the gypsies and anyone else who didn't fit with the vision of the "pure Aryan race" theory.
That is one of the reasons that they have been allowed get away with the land theft, the illegal settlements and the occupation and siege for so long and have now made the possibility of a 2-state solution virtually impossible.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
Serenity Now! wrote: »Apart from being an wholly incorrect assertion, the above is utterly sanctimonious twaddle.
Why ? When was the last time you heard the other victims of Hitler being mentioned ? I would like to know why you think it's "utterly sanctimonious twaddle"
On another note, only a week ago Lieberman said that commemoration of the Nakba was to be banned in Palestine. Nobody's suffering is as important as Israel's.0 -
Really? How did you find out about it?Never any mention of the other 6 million who died in the camps, the disabled, the gypsies and anyone else who didn't fit with the vision of the "pure Aryan race" theory.
*quickly ties boots and leaves vicinity til this stopsThat is one of the reasons that they have been allowed get away with the land theft0 -
Really? How did you find out about it?
*quickly ties boots and leaves vicinity til this stops
Reading.
I'm in no way denying that it was an unimaginable and horrific atrocity to happen to any race of people and it should never be forgotten just like the other 6 million victims deserve to be remembered.0 -
The last time? When I watched the Lawrence Rees Auschwitz documentary series on DVD again. I called what you wrote sanctimonious twaddle because it is not true and as usual is a snowballed lie by those who prefer to stick to the one side of the story. Never been to Yad Vashem in Israel I take it. Ever visited a death camp museum? Even in a synagogue's museum exhibition in Krakow that I visited they mentioned the others who perished in the Holocaust.Why ? When was the last time you heard the other victims of Hitler being mentioned ? I would like to know why you think it's "utterly sanctimonious twaddle"
Erm...when it comes to Israelis, of course no-one's suffering is as important as Israel's, the same as any other country concerns itself. What a stupid thing to say.On another note, only a week ago Lieberman said that commemoration of the Nakba was to be banned in Palestine. Nobody's suffering is as important as Israel's.
And by the way before you lump the stereotypical 'apoligist' bilge my way, I support nothing that Netanyahu and that disgusting Galicianer stand for or their attitudes to the problems going on.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »The last time? When I watched the Lawrence Rees Auschwitz documentary series on DVD again. I called what you wrote sanctimonious twaddle because it is not true and as usual is a snowballed lie by those who prefer to stick to the one side of the story. Never been to Yad Vashem in Israel I take it. Ever visited a death camp museum? Even in a synagogue's museum exhibition in Krakow that I visited they mentioned the others who perished in the Holocaust.
Erm...when it comes to Israelis, of course no-one's suffering is as important as Israel's, the same as any other country concerns itself. What a stupid thing to say.
And by the way before you lump the stereotypical 'apoligist' bilge my way, I support nothing that Netanyahu and that disgusting Galicianer stand for or their attitudes to the problems going on.
Yes I have been to Yad Vashem,(where 2 months ago, a guide was sacked for mentioning that the ruins outside the museum were of a Palestinian village destroyed in the Nakba) Auschwitz and the House of Death in Budapest. I also listened to a few speeches on Holocaust Memorial day, one from Israel, one from New York and neither mentioned the other victims. This has been a trend in the last decade or so.
As to sending "bilge" your way, why would I want to do that just because you have a different point of view. You, on the other hand.........0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Without supporting the violent means to whatever any of the three sides involved have done, the above is a lazy monocular statement that doesn't even attempt to cover each side's agendae or what has happened and why.
No, its very simple. Zionists caused the mess in the Middle East. You can ignore that all you like. They are invaders plain and simple and they invaded with the express intention to take away other peoples land. I have already provided links to back this up in the thread. You can choose to ignore them all you want and pretend that what I am saying doesn't make sense, but its actually very simple. The problem is the occupation. Its what caused every single sides violence and the group responsible for the occupation, is of course the occupier.
Now, it would be interesting for you to try and address what I am saying, but clearly you can't and rather accuse me of making a lazy statement instead. Come on, please explain to me how Zionism is a peace loving ideology, please explain away all the racist nonsense that Zionists have been going on about for the last 100 years. I am sure you will have no trouble doing so.0 -
ouch...you didn't just... eh you're on you're own on that one.
Paulaa is more or less right actually. Israeli leaders actually like to invoke the Holocaust and Nazi Germany quite a bit to justify there actions. Here is a recent example:From Haaretz:
Peres to Obama: No choice but to compare Iran to Nazis
By Natasha Mozgovaya, Haaretz Correspondent
The world has no choice but to compare the threat posed by Iran now to that of Nazi Germany before the Second World War, President Shimon Peres told U.S. President Barack Obama in Washington on Tuesday.
"Iran is a threat not just to Israel, but to the whole world. As Jews, after being subjected to the Holocaust, we cannot close our eyes in light of the grave danger emerging from Iran," Peres said.
"If Europe had dealt seriously with Hitler at that time, the terrible Holocaust and the loss of millions of people could have been avoided. We can't help but make the comparison."
Click here for full article
So you can clearly see Perez invoking the Holocaust to justify Israel's position against Iran. It isn't first time an Israeli leader has done this and probably won't be the last.
Now, to be fair to him, everyone and there dog brings up World War 2 to justify what they do.0 -
From the weekly report of happenings in Israel/ Palestine and what the people have to put up with week in week out and this is just a fraction of what goes on. How anyone can excuse this behaviour from a so-called democracy is really beyond me.
Israeli settlement activities:
Israeli forces have continued settlement activities in the West Bank and Israeli settlers have continued to attack Palestinian civilians and property.
On Thursday morning, 14 May 2009, a number of Israeli settlers from "Yits'har" settlement, south of Nablus, closed the bypass road located to the south of the city and prevented Palestinian civilian vehicles from traveling on the road. Later, Israeli forces closed the road completely.
On Monday, 18 May 2009, the Israeli government published an invitation for bids in Hebrew newspapers for the construction of 20 new housing units in "Maskiot" settlement in the northern Jordan Valley. The Israeli military radio reported that the invitation for bids were published after the Israeli defense ministry had approved the expansion of the aforementioned settlement. It is worth noting that "Maskiot" settlement was built in 2006 in the place of an Israeli military post to absorb Israeli settlers who were evacuated from "Gush Qatif" settlement bloc in the Gaza Strip in summer 2005.
On Monday morning, 18 May 2009, Israeli forces started to establish an iron fence between the east and southeast of Beit Ummar village, north of Hebron, and the Jerusalem – Hebron road, allegedly to secure the movement of Israeli vehicles from stone throwing. According to investigations conducted by PCHR, the fence would be approximately 300 meters long and would restrict the movement of Palestinian civilians.
On Sunday and Monday, 17 and 18 May 2009, Israeli forces prevented at least 50 Palestinian farmers from Beit Uammar and Safa village, north of Hebron, accompanied by a number of international and Israeli human rights defenders, from reaching agricultural area located in Wadi Abu al-Reesh area to the north of the two villages. Israeli forces besieged them and forced them to leave the area. It is worth noting that Israeli forces have continued to restrict access of Palestinian farmers to large areas of agricultural land located to the north of Beit Ummar village, which raises concerns that Israeli forces may annex the land to the nearby "Beit 'Ain" settlement.
At approximately 10:00 on Tuesday, 19 May 2009, dozens of Israeli settlers, escorted by Israeli forces, attacked a number of Palestinian farmers who were working on their lands in Jeet village, northeast of Qalqilya. They violently beat a number of farmers and forced them to leave their lands. Soon after, the settlers brought tractors and tilled the lands. Israeli forces also abducted Murad Mufeed Yamin, 15.
http://www.imemc.org/article/605060 -
Doesnt look like it will be ending soon :mad:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=12422124486370 -
Advertisement
-
I also listened to a few speeches on Holocaust Memorial day, one from Israel, one from New York and neither mentioned the other victims. This has been a trend in the last decade or so.
Yeah well I hear about the 54 million people killed by Lenin+Stalin even less.
Given that the Holocaust is seen as so big a deal of Israel, because it was one of the motivators for the setting up of the state, its very easy to see why its so commemorated.
I assume you give out about Irish people mentioning the famine too.0 -
Yeah well I hear about the 54 million people killed by Lenin+Stalin even less.
Given that the Holocaust is seen as so big a deal of Israel, because it was one of the motivators for the setting up of the state, its very easy to see why its so commemorated.
I assume you give out about Irish people mentioning the famine too.
Point of information the people who make an issue of the famine and compare it to the holocaust are the same people who support the murder of 1,781 people during the troubles and the injury 6,000 members of the security forces and 14,000 civilians. (Lost Lives)0 -
Ping Chow Chi wrote: »Still would like these figures please, if its not too much trouble?
I could find this on wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
West bank pop (settlers)
1993 111600
2004 234487
2006 282400
If you add the almost 8,000 who left Gaza onto the West Bank figures it would still suggest that the settlement process is still going at quite a rate and whatever settlements have been dismantled are small compared to the expansions that have been allowed.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061358.html
The above is interesting, in that Israel did dismantle a settlement in the Westbank, only to move the settlers to a brand new settlement in the Westbank. More of moving the settlement rather than dismantling it.
sorry just incredibly busy at the moment to find the figures will do it as soon as i get a chance
also most settlers get rehoused outside Judea and Samaria they get a grant for housing a system a lot like council houses here0 -
Paulaa I would suggest you do some reaserch on the pchr before quoting them as it makes you look like a hypocrite.0
-
-
truebluedub wrote: »Point of information the people who make an issue of the famine and compare it to the holocaust are the same people who support the murder of 1,781 people during the troubles and the injury 6,000 members of the security forces and 14,000 civilians. (Lost Lives)
Sterotypical nonsense and the usual line ahh if you support palestine you must be a republician! Well thanks I never had such a comparission before! I will be sure to get gerry adams' photo from the amnestly shop in that case!
Get real, People support palestimne cause it makes sense, check out the amnestly site if you dont believe me!0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »Paulaa I would suggest you do some reaserch on the pchr before quoting them as it makes you look like a hypocrite.
Poisoning the well? One could find much the same information on B'tselem or Settlement Watch, both Israeli organisations.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »I'll stop you there.
It is most certainly NOT "very simple". Don't forget that before #194 came #181. Try expanding your highly selective reading material, I'd suggest.
I have never been for settlement expansion myself.
Oh, it most certainly is simple. Please explain to me what right a group of Europeans had to set up a state against the will of the indigenous population of Palestine? I see no real difference between Zionists and other European colonists, who tried to colonize Africa and other place. Could you explain the difference? Also, perhaps your the one who needs to read the other sides story as well btw. I have read up on Zionism and what its founder and various adherents have said and I am to put it simply rather unimpressed. My opinion on Zionism is pretty much based on what Zionists have said and done and I see no difference between it and other ethnic-nationalist ideologies, for example I see no difference between Zionism and the Nation of Islam. They are both of the same ilk of racists imho.
So far, you argument appears to be to claim I am wrong, as opposed to actually providing a counter argument. You seem completely unable to answer any of my questions and just insist that I am wrong.
Again, here is are some simple questions. What right do a group of Europeans, with an absurd claim on some land in the Middle East, have to expel the indigenous population and set up there own state? Also, wouldn't such an action cause conflict?
Also, the I/P conflict, does not being with the most recent colonies. Its started a long time ago.0 -
IRISH RAIL wrote: »sorry just incredibly busy at the moment to find the figures will do it as soon as i get a chance
also most settlers get rehoused outside Judea and Samaria they get a grant for housing a system a lot like council houses here
Judea and Samaria? Well that an interesting way to refer to the West Bank.
Also, its interesting that the claims your making seems to be you know contradicited by Israeli politicians and here is another:'Israel won't yield to U.S. demands, won't halt settlement construction'
By Haaertz Service
Strategic Affairs Minister Moshe Ya'alon spoke to Channel 2 on Saturday about the meeting between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and U.S. President Barack Obama, held earlier this week, saying that Israel's government will not allow the U.S. to dictate its policy, and that "settlement construction will not be halted."
"Settlements are not the reason that the peace process is failing, they were never an obstacle, not at any stage," Ya'alon told Channel 2 News. "Even when Israel pulled out of [Palestinian] territory, the terror continued. Even when we uprooted [Jewish] communities, we got 'Hamastan.' That is why I propose that we think about it - not in slogans and not with decrees."
Click here for full article
Pretty funny, you know Israeli politicians seems to not give a crap about stopping colonial expansion and also claim there not a impediment to peace. Nothing short of completely hilarious. So Israel leaves Gaza, turns it into a giant prison and then steal even more land in the West Bank. Its interesting that the attitude that stealing land, when your in a conflict about land, isn't considered a problem by some Israeli politicians, which will ensure the conflict will keep on going.0 -
Advertisement
-
ISRAEL RAIL
we still waiting on an answer to my simple question0
Advertisement