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Israel at it again!
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I have to say he's living right up to my expectations. As is Benji.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8066892.stm
Wow, are they serious? The cat got out of the bag a long time ago, concerning the Palestinian Nakba. Banning recognition of it will have no effect, as the event is pretty well known at this point. I find it pretty funny that Israel of all countries is engaging in denial of a historic event.0 -
Hmmm...no mention of Hamas.The PLO did that, then Israel started making demands they recognise Israel as a "Jewish" state, the current government have repeated this childish demand. Israel has a history of changing the goal posts. The antics of various Israeli government have shown that no matter what the Palestinians do, the Israeli government will invent a new hoop for them to jump through.
Also, the Palestinian need something to work with. The simple fact is that they don't have enough to make a go at viable statehood. Israel has seen to it that this will never be the case, that they will have a viable state.
Its a vicious circle. No recognition of Israel and No statehood for Palestinians (please spare us the bullsh rhetoric of concessions from Hamas by the way. There are none regarding recognition of Israel. They will not even call Israelis Israeli but 'Yehudim' ie. Jews.
Ironic calling an Israeli a Jew but not calling Israel Jewish, eh? Handy semantics for some.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Hmmm...no mention of Hamas.
At the time it was done, Hamas were not a major player as they are now. You do realize that the conflict raged for a very long time before Hamas ever existed?Serenity Now! wrote: »Its a vicious circle. No recognition of Israel and No statehood for Palestinians (please spare us the bullsh rhetoric of concessions from Hamas by the way. There are none regarding recognition of Israel. They will not even call Israelis Israeli but 'Yehudim' ie. Jews.
Ironic calling an Israeli a Jew but not calling Israel Jewish, eh? Handy semantics for some.
You do leave out the simple fact the recognition of Israel is not enough. Israel must be recognised as a "Jewish" state and also your own comments are pretty funny considering that Israel is rather insistent on calling itself a "Jewish" state. Its seems semantics are just as handy for Zionists as well, as the likes of Hamas. Pea's in a pod me thinks.
At the end of the day the PLO recognised Israel and they then recieved a further demand of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. So the Palestinians did recognise Israel and it quite frankly meant nothing.
Now, if Hamas were to recognise Israel, I somehow doubt that things would be magically different and you know as well as I do that Hamas recognising Israel, will be met with further demands of recognition as a "Jewish" state, which is a demand the current Israeli government is making of Fatah.
Israel will always come up for new hoops for the Palestinians, regardless of whether there represented by Fatah or Hamas.
So, please spare me the nonsense of the Palestinian recognising Israel, leading to peace and a state for them. They did that and Israel moved the goal posts, which is very well know as per there bizare conintinous demands for differing types or recognition.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Hmmm...no mention of Hamas.
Its a vicious circle. No recognition of Israel and No statehood for Palestinians (please spare us the bullsh rhetoric of concessions from Hamas by the way. There are none regarding recognition of Israel. They will not even call Israelis Israeli but 'Yehudim' ie. Jews.
Ironic calling an Israeli a Jew but not calling Israel Jewish, eh? Handy semantics for some.
It's ridiculous to have to call Israel "The Jewish State of Israel" What other country does this , except the Islamic Republics.
The Christian United States of America ? The Roman Catholic Republic of Ireland ? No democracy that I know of.
The Palestinians, Muslim and Christian,would be foolish to fall in with this deluded piece of racism. It is only another ploy to exclude the minorities and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.0 -
It's ridiculous to have to call Israel "The Jewish State of Israel" What other country does this , except the Islamic Republics.
The Christian United States of America ? The Roman Catholic Republic of Ireland ? No democracy that I know of.
The Palestinians, Muslim and Christian,would be foolish to fall in with this deluded piece of racism. It is only another ploy to exclude the minorities and should be treated with the contempt it deserves.
All of that is just a smoke screen. The Israeli government have no interset in settling with the Palestinians.
They will make excuse after excuse just to keep the whole thing going so that they can keep expanding settlements while at the same time intimidating and trying to remove those who opposse their ways.0 -
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Wow, an Israeli comparison to Germany, thats new.
Someone said that the Palestinians need to work with what they've got. Should they then not recognize the state of Israel?
Unfortunately, yes.
As a temporary measure the Palestinians, the Arab community and Palestinian religious leaders should recognise that Israel exists, but never its right to exist. Zionism and its followers have no place in civilised society and should be removed from the inside, beginning with the two state solution.0 -
RealityCheck wrote: »All of that is just a smoke screen. The Israeli government have no interest in settling with the Palestinians.
They will make excuse after excuse just to keep the whole thing going so that they can keep expanding settlements while at the same time intimidating and trying to remove those who oppose their ways.
Yes I totally agree with that. Also the fear mongering about Iran is another deflection method that Netanyahu tried with Obama. Unfortunately for him Obama didn't veer from the US's position that the settlement building should be stopped and the all illegal outposts be removed. He has also reiterated that last week after statements from Israel said they would continue building to allow for natural growth.0 -
Unfortunately, yes.
As a temporary measure the Palestinians, the Arab community and Palestinian religious leaders should recognise that Israel exists, but never its right to exist.
Why never it's right to exist ?
As much as I dislike the way the Paletinian people have been treated at times in the past by the Israeli state itself, I always find it very worrying when people make statements like that one above.
So the Israeli's are there, they're not going away, they're going to stay there. You know they are there, they do exist, their state does exist. Why not recognise their right to exist ? Why even mention that their right to exist should not be recognised ?
If people at least recognised and respected the fact that Israel does exist, they/the state itself have/has the right to exist and they are not going away anytime soon - it would at least be a step in the right direction and open up a means to dialogue toward a lasting peaceful settlement.0 -
If people at least recognised and respected the fact that Israel does exist, they/the state itself have/has the right to exist and they are not going away anytime soon - it would at least be a step in the right direction and open up a means to dialogue toward a lasting peaceful settlement.
Except, that is has already been done and then Israel demands further recognition as a Jewish state. The PLO recognized Israel in 1988. Your acting as if it hasn't already been done and yet the Palestinians have lost a hell of a lot more land since the PLO's recognition.
The simple fact is that Israel is doing it best to stop any kind of peace so that it can acquire more land. Recognizing Israel is simply worthless, as all Israel will do is make further demands for recognition as a Jewish state.
In the meantime, Israel will trample all over Palestinian rights and take more and more of there land. This is something that Israel has done regardless of whether the Palestinian recognize it or not.
Also, the current Israeli government explicitly denies Palestine right to exists and previous governments weren't much better, in that they expressed public support for the 2 state solution, but they continued expanding colonies and hence undermining Palestines right to exist. Its very simple, Israel has always done everything in its power to deny Palestinians there states existence. Perhaps, its time that Israel actually seriously respected Palestine right to exists, especially as this is something it constantly demands for itself. Seems a bit rich to me that they make such demands, while denying the right they demand to the Palestinians.0 -
...and what exactly is wrong with Israel being recognised as a Jewish State ?0
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...and what exactly is wrong with Israel being recognised as a Jewish State ?
Its wrong for the same reason recognizing Apartheid South Africa, as a "white" state was wrong. Its racist plain and simple. I see no reasons why the Palestinians should recognize Israel right to be racist towards them, such a demand is an absurdity.0 -
Its wrong for the same reason recognizing Apartheid South Africa, as a "white" state was wrong. Its racist plain and simple. I see no reasons why the Palestinians should recognize Israel right to be racist towards them, such a demand is an absurdity.
Ah it's the same as apartheid SA was, the vast majority of Israeli people are not racist at all and just want to get on with their lives as I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians do.
You have to accept that Israel is not going away, I mean come on, think about it realistically.
They have at this stage (and for a long time really) a massive military force, nuclear weapon capabilities, a pretty well organised and elite secret service and specialised military personel. They did not build all that up for an eventuallity of pulling out. It's not going to happen.
It has gone too far, wrongly or otherwise and the only solution I can see to this is if Israel either completely wipes out the Palestinian people (it's not beyond their means to do this) and siezing all land. Or the Palestinians and surrounding Arab communities accept and respect the right for Israel to exist and do their best with the help of supportive governments and people worldwide, to strike as best a deal they possibly can with Israel for peace and recognition of their own Palestinian lands and state itself.0 -
Ah it's the same as apartheid SA was, the vast majority of Israeli people are not racist at all and just want to get on with their lives as I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians do.
You have to accept that Israel is not going away, I mean come on, think about it realistically.
The state of Israel is clearly racist, whether the average Israeli is or isn't racist doesn't really matter, as long as the state pursues racist polices.
Also, I never said anything about Israel going away. I was just pointing out that recognizing Israel is worthless, as the Israeli's will just start making more and more demands, so that they can steal more and more land.They have at this stage (and for a long time really) a massive military force, nuclear weapon capabilities, a pretty well organised and elite secret service and specialised military personel. They did not build all that up for an eventuallity of pulling out. It's not going to happen.
Oh I agree, Israel will probably never leave occupied Palestine and will continue to colonize whats left of Palestinian land. Hence, why recognition is pointless.It has gone too far, wrongly or otherwise and the only solution I can see to this is if Israel either completely wipes out the Palestinian people (it's not beyond their means to do this) and siezing all land. Or the Palestinians and surrounding Arab communities accept and respect the right for Israel to exist and do their best with the help of supportive governments and people worldwide, to strike as best a deal they possibly can with Israel for peace and recognition of their own Palestinian lands and state itself.
Well, the Israeli's are pretty much taking the land they want at present. Your right they could wipe out the Palestinians and I am sure the US would happily provide cover for it in the UN.
Also, I think you will find that the Arabs state have actually offered what your suggest:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002
So, again Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist and Israel keeps stealing land. Why you seem to think that recognizing Israel again will change this is beyond me. Israel wants land and show no sign of changing this attitude. What you are suggesting has already failed.
Also, the current Israeli government is against a 2 state solution and at present what little land the Palestinian have is not enough for a viable state. So you see the Israeli's are very much an obstacle to peace as well and what you suggest the Palestinian do won't work, as it didn't work the first time and all Israel will do is make more and more demands to halt the peace process and steal more land.
The 2 state solution is basically dead, and the best option for the Palestinian is demand equal rights. much like the Anti-Apartheid movement of South Africa. Its the only way they will get justice now.0 -
Ok, I'm lazy so I'm going to do a copy and paste job on this. Here's something I posted back in March about racism in Israel:Ah it's the same as apartheid SA was, the vast majority of Israeli people are not racist at all and just want to get on with their lives as I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians do.
Linky
As for the "right to exist"; there are major issues over the idea and concept over this. Have a look hereand see if you can figure out the problems with its applicability and interpretation.
As for rocognition of Israel as a Jewish state, well if you cant get why this is an issue there's not much point in explaining it.0 -
The state of Israel is clearly racist, whether the average Israeli is or isn't racist doesn't really matter, as long as the state pursues racist polices.
Well I would somewhat agree with you in that regards a little, though racism isn't a word I'd use.Also, I never said anything about Israel going away. I was just pointing out that recognizing Israel is worthless, as the Israeli's will just start making more and more demands, so that they can steal more and more land.
The recognition of Israel can only be dependant on the recognition of Palestine. Both must happen, both must be enshrined into law and recognised internationally and both must be upheld and any and all resistance or indeed terrorist activity from either side must be quelled for it to succeeed.
No point in Israel agreeing to something and a Palestinian state also the same, if in the background there are terrorist cells intent only on the destruction of Israel of vice versa.
Palestine itself may be plunged into a horrible civil war because of something like this, but, for the greater good it may be the only choice open to them.Oh I agree, Israel will probably never leave occupied Palestine and will continue to colonize whats left of Palestinian land. Hence, why recognition is pointless.
What other options are there though ? Palestinians are not going to win the war via suicide bombs and homemade rockets and Israel will always be proactive in striking first and ask questions later toward any country which poses a threat to it. I'd include in that the possibility of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal falling into the hands of Taleban, which would pose a threat to Israel.Well, the Israeli's are pretty much taking the land they want at present. Your right they could wipe out the Palestinians and I am sure the US would happily provide cover for it in the UN.
The reason I would make emphasis on this is if you look at Sri Lanka, that state has more or less completely won their internal cival war, at the protest of world governments, but still, they done it, it's over and done with. The Israeli state I'm sure have thought long and hard about the possibility of doing similar but on a larger scale to the Palestinian lands. I honestly don't know what is holding them back from doing so. They'd have little or no opposition and there's nothing any other world government could do to stop it either, particularly so given the support the Israeli state itself has from the US....
So, again Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist and Israel keeps stealing land. Why you seem to think that recognizing Israel again will change this is beyond me. Israel wants land and show no sign of changing this attitude. What you are suggesting has already failed.
Yes I know and yes it has failed but it failed because it was not supported properly by the rest of the world or indeed and in particular was not supported by Palestine as a whole either.
There was huge oppossition to the deal struck within Palestine itself, where there was a large element unwilling to accept the deal purely because they refuse to recognise Israel and just want them destroyed. This cannot and will not work, it's a stupid thing for them to persist with.
Israel won't be destroyed no matter how many idealist or patriotic Palestinians are recruited in the fight against Israel. Just not going to happen.
Palestinians have to at some stage admit to themselves they have no hope of winning any war against Israel and if they wish to live long and hopefully have their children prosper in the future, that they must accept this fact.
They are defeated militarily and have no chance at ever recovering, small suicide bombings or other guerella tactics are absolutely futile and are only simple bloodlust and revenge killings, not in the best interest at all in any way for their own people.Also, the current Israeli government is against a 2 state solution and at present what little land the Palestinian have is not enough for a viable state. So you see the Israeli's are very much an obstacle to peace as well and what you suggest the Palestinian do won't work, as it didn't work the first time and all Israel will do is make more and more demands to halt the peace process and steal more land.
The 2 state solution is basically dead, and the best option for the Palestinian is demand equal rights. much like the Anti-Apartheid movement of South Africa. Its the only way they will get justice now.
Could you really blame the Israeli government though for being against a two state solution ? They have the upper hand, they could probably wipe out the Palestinians in 2 weeks. What can the Palestinians at this stage bring to the table ?
Myself I feel Israel will continue in their fight to defeat whatever military opposition exists in Palestine completely, take over the rest of the Palestinian lands and leave the Palestinians with nothing other than to take them on as a second class citizen of Israel. If the Palestinian people do not act peacefully and politically to negotiate a settlement, they will be left with nothing.0 -
Ok, I'm lazy so I'm going to do a copy and paste job on this. Here's something I posted back in March about racism in Israel:
Linky
As for the "right to exist"; there are major issues over the idea and concept over this. Have a look hereand see if you can figure out the problems with its applicability and interpretation.
As for rocognition of Israel as a Jewish state, well if you cant get why this is an issue there's not much point in explaining it.
Well here, let me do this then, lets take a quote from Menachem Begin from the WiKi and pretend his name is Paddy Byrne..."Our right to exist--have you ever heard of such a thing? Would it enter the mind of any Briton or Frenchman, Belgian or Dutchman, Hungarian or Bulgarian, Russian or American, to request for its people recognition of its right to exist? Mr. Speaker: We were granted our right to exist by the God of our fathers at the glimmer of the dawn of human civilization four thousand years ago. Hence, the Irish people have an historic, eternal and inalienable right to exist in this land, Ireland, the land of our forefathers.
We need nobody's recognition in asserting this inalienable right. And for this inalienable right, which has been sanctified in Irish blood from generation to generation, we have paid a price unexampled in the annals of nations. Mr. Speaker: From the legislature of Ireland, I say to the world, our very existence per se is our right to exist!"
(Knesset, best English example I can give for that word is legislature)
Continued..."He further stated that he didn't "need British recognition for my right to exist.", and that "Traditionally, there are four major criteria of statehood under international law.
One - an effective and independent government.
Two - an effective and independent control of the population.
Three - a defined territory.
And four - the capacity to freely engage in foreign relations. Ireland is in possession of all four attributes and, hence, is a fully fledged sovereign state (nay Republic) and a fully accredited member of the United Nations."
In regards racism, I wouldn't call the attitudes of some Israeli people toward Arabs as racist, merely hatred thrust upon them via Arabic assaults upon their lands and people. You can't blame either side for hating each other and it will take some generations after peace for that hatred to ever subside, but in the meantime people need to get on with their lives and make the best of what they have available to them, trying always to better themselves, their peoples and I'm sure their country/state. Racism no, hatred yes but again, honestly couldn't blame either side for their hatred expressed.0 -
Well I would somewhat agree with you in that regards a little, though racism isn't a word I'd use.
Racism is a accurate term to describe what Israel is doing.The recognition of Israel can only be dependant on the recognition of Palestine. Both must happen, both must be enshrined into law and recognised internationally and both must be upheld and any and all resistance or indeed terrorist activity from either side must be quelled for it to succeeed.
Well, I agree both sides need to make efforts for peace.No point in Israel agreeing to something and a Palestinian state also the same, if in the background there are terrorist cells intent only on the destruction of Israel of vice versa.
Well, the main reason for terrorism towards Israel is the lack of a Palestinian state. Having one takes away there Casus Belli. Also, a Palestinian state would be more capable of taking out such groups.
Also, there is no such thing as complete security. There will always be groups on both sides that will wish to spoil things. The best thing to do, is not allow them to do so.Palestine itself may be plunged into a horrible civil war because of something like this, but, for the greater good it may be the only choice open to them.
There is already a civil war going on as we type.What other options are there though ? Palestinians are not going to win the war via suicide bombs and homemade rockets and Israel will always be proactive in striking first and ask questions later toward any country which poses a threat to it. I'd include in that the possibility of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal falling into the hands of Taleban, which would pose a threat to Israel.
Israel already wanted to launch an attack on Pakistan btw, but India wouldn't allow Israel to use its air space and quite frankly Israel can't take out Pakistan's nuclear arsenal via air strikes at this point. It of course goes to show Israel's dangerous war mongering attitude, to want to attack a country that has never attacked it.
Also the Taliban aren't capable of taking over Pakistan. They are getting a right proper kicking in the Swat valley as we speak. They can engage in terrorism, but taking over the country is beyond themThe reason I would make emphasis on this is if you look at Sri Lanka, that state has more or less completely won their internal cival war, at the protest of world governments, but still, they done it, it's over and done with. The Israeli state I'm sure have thought long and hard about the possibility of doing similar but on a larger scale to the Palestinian lands. I honestly don't know what is holding them back from doing so. They'd have little or no opposition and there's nothing any other world government could do to stop it either, particularly so given the support the Israeli state itself has from the US.
I think its funny that you actually think the conflict in Sri Lanka is over. If the Sinhalese keep treating the Tamil's like sub-humans, I can guarantee you that things will eventually kick off again.
As for Israel using the same tactic. Well, the situation is very different. Sure, all it would take is a few well placed missiles in the straits of hormuz and the worlds oil supply will drop pretty damn quick. You see a major conflict in the ME is not in the West interests and hence why Israel can't be allowed to go to far, as it will hurt US interests.Yes I know and yes it has failed but it failed because it was not supported properly by the rest of the world or indeed and in particular was not supported by Palestine as a whole either.
There was huge oppossition to the deal struck within Palestine itself, where there was a large element unwilling to accept the deal purely because they refuse to recognise Israel and just want them destroyed. This cannot and will not work, it's a stupid thing for them to persist with.
Israel won't be destroyed no matter how many idealist or patriotic Palestinians are recruited in the fight against Israel. Just not going to happen.
The PLO at the time represented the vast majority of Palestinians and the peace process back then had plenty of international support as well.
The deal was rejected as what was offered was a Bantustan and not a state.Palestinians have to at some stage admit to themselves they have no hope of winning any war against Israel and if they wish to live long and hopefully have their children prosper in the future, that they must accept this fact.
They are defeated militarily and have no chance at ever recovering, small suicide bombings or other guerella tactics are absolutely futile and are only simple bloodlust and revenge killings, not in the best interest at all in any way for their own people.
Oh I am in full agreement, but the simple fact is that the other option won't work either, and has also failed.Could you really blame the Israeli government though for being against a two state solution ? They have the upper hand, they could probably wipe out the Palestinians in 2 weeks. What can the Palestinians at this stage bring to the table ?
Well, yeah I can blame a racist colonial state for there murderous ways. Why wouldn't I?Myself I feel Israel will continue in their fight to defeat whatever military opposition exists in Palestine completely, take over the rest of the Palestinian lands and leave the Palestinians with nothing other than to take them on as a second class citizen of Israel. If the Palestinian people do not act peacefully and politically to negotiate a settlement, they will be left with nothing.
You don't get it. This has already happened. The Palestinians have nothing. Trying to be peaceful has failed miserably already, there was little violence from them for years before the 1st Intifada. Neither option will work at this point. So to continue to suggest them trying to negotiate is pointless at this point. Israel does not want to give them a state and quite frankly they have never been serious about negotiations, as during the whole Oslo business they kept stealing more land.0 -
In regards racism, I wouldn't call the attitudes of some Israeli people toward Arabs as racist, merely hatred thrust upon them via Arabic assaults upon their lands and people. You can't blame either side for hating each other and it will take some generations after peace for that hatred to ever subside, but in the meantime people need to get on with their lives and make the best of what they have available to them, trying always to better themselves, their peoples and I'm sure their country/state. Racism no, hatred yes but again, honestly couldn't blame either side for their hatred expressed.
Well, the main problem with what you say here, is that Zionists went to Palestine with the express intention of turfing out the natives. This was long before any suicide bombings or any of that. Like all colonists, Zionists are racists and there hatred is based on there racism. Now all the violence towards them of course fuels there racism, but it was there from the beginning.0 -
Wes, appreciate your responses but it's late and I want to get some sleep, so I'll leave it at that for now
I'm in no great disagreement with you, just a difference of opinion.0 -
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I wasn't referring to Israel in particular in that piece. I was pointing out how the definition itself is problematic as is its applicibility. I suggest you read the whole lot and think about how this is the case and why calling for Isreals "right to exist" is problematic. If you want I can go through it but I'm tired now.Well here, let me do this then, lets take a quote from Menachem Begin from the WiKi and pretend his name is Paddy Byrne...
(Knesset, best English example I can give for that word is legislature)
Continued...
Funnily enough from one of Begins own four criteria for the right of a state to exist would proclude Israel from having a right to exist as it does not define its own borders. But this is just semantics.Three - a defined territory.
Um, by its definition hatred of someone because of their race or ethnicity is racism. And saying that hatred was thrust upon them by Arabic assaults is disingenuous to say the least.In regards racism, I wouldn't call the attitudes of some Israeli people toward Arabs as racist, merely hatred thrust upon them via Arabic assaults upon their lands and people. You can't blame either side for hating each other and it will take some generations after peace for that hatred to ever subside, but in the meantime people need to get on with their lives and make the best of what they have available to them, trying always to better themselves, their peoples and I'm sure their country/state. Racism no, hatred yes but again, honestly couldn't blame either side for their hatred expressed.0 -
It's really sad, and the saddest thing of all for me is that this comes from a people who have provided the world with some of it's greatest thinkers and humanists.While I agree with you about the last 20 years, I wouldn't disown your ancestry. A portion of my family is Jewish, living near tel Aviv, and they feel the same as you and are thinking of moving back to the states after nearly 30 years of living there.
It's such a pity what is happening in Israel, particularly with this extremist right-wing government.---snip---0 -
Oh ffs. Fatah recognises the state of Israel and has been working with the state of Israel towards some semblance of a solution. Which party in this trifecta of f**k-ups doesn't? Yep, Hamas. Thats why I mentioned them ie. because you conveniently didn't.At the time it was done, Hamas were not a major player as they are now. You do realize that the conflict raged for a very long time before Hamas ever existed?
Smartarse answers don't give your post any more weight, by the way.
It actually could be considered a Jewish state. Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal are all considered Roman Catholic countries. Of course, this is all irelevant sidelining from issues that actually make a difference.You do leave out the simple fact the recognition of Israel is not enough. Israel must be recognised as a "Jewish" state and also your own comments are pretty funny considering that Israel is rather insistent on calling itself a "Jewish" state. Its seems semantics are just as handy for Zionists as well, as the likes of Hamas. Pea's in a pod me thinks
At what point when signing accords with Israel, was Arafat told that there was a further condition? (no)At the end of the day the PLO recognised Israel and they then recieved a further demand of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. So the Palestinians did recognise Israel and it quite frankly meant nothing
If they refuse to recognise the f**king country there can be no accords, treaties or peace. It seems as if you want what goes on now to continue...:rolleyes:Now, if Hamas were to recognise Israel, I somehow doubt that things would be magically different and you know as well as I do that Hamas recognising Israel, will be met with further demands of recognition as a "Jewish" state, which is a demand the current Israeli government is making of Fatah
Well guess what, now that Netan and the mad Galicianer are running things, it all takes a leap backwards now especially if Lieberman gets his loyalty bills passed (doubtful they will though) so you can lean back in your sanctimonious sofa and preach it all over again.0 -
...and what exactly is wrong with Israel being recognised as a Jewish State ?
The same problem that there would be in any state declaring itself muslim, christian or what have you. Never a good idea, IMO.
However, to stick to the specifics, its Muslim Arab citizens who constitute 20% of its population would strike me as sufficient obstacle.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Oh ffs. Fatah recognises the state of Israel and has been working with the state of Israel towards some semblance of a solution. Which party in this trifecta of f**k-ups doesn't? Yep, Hamas. Thats why I mentioned them ie. because you conveniently didn't.
Smartarse answers don't give your post any more weight, by the way.
Yawn, again when the PLO rocognised Israel, Hamas were not a major player. They only gained power, when it became clear that Israel was more interested in taking land. During the Oslo process Zionists colonies in Occuipied Palestine doubled. You mention Hamas, as if they on there own managed to torpedo the peace process, the process was already dead when those guys started getting more and more power, due to the dead peace process.Serenity Now! wrote: »It actually could be considered a Jewish state. Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal are all considered Roman Catholic countries. Of course, this is all irelevant sidelining from issues that actually make a difference.
Your talking utter nonsense here. Ireland does not define itself as a Roman Catholic country. Its a nation of all its citizens, where most of them identify themselves as Catholic, like all modern democracies and the others that you mention are the same.
In Israel a defintion as a Jewish state, is pretty problematic, as 20% of the population are the indigenous population, who are not Jewish. Israel definition as a Jewish state, is just one example of the racism that whats left of the indigenous people face.Serenity Now! wrote: »At what point when signing accords with Israel, was Arafat told that there was a further condition? (no)
Well, I know these demands are being made right now. I don't know when they were first made.
Also, it doesn't really matter when they were first made. The fact is that they are being made now and any recognition of Israel made by Hamas, will be met by this additional pointless demand. So please explain to me, in light of Israel additional demand as be recognised a Jewish state, what would the point of Hamas recognising Israel, when Israel has already decided to make such a ridiculos demand? You seem to dodge my central point, as to why recognition is pointless, as long as Israel makes there demand of recognition as a Jewish state. This childish demand exists soley to furstrate the peace process and servers no real purpose beyond that. You seem insistent on ignoring this for some reason.
Please, explain to me, what the use recognition will server, when we know that Israel will just go on making demands of different types of recognition? You have repeatedly failed to answer this very simple question.Serenity Now! wrote: »If they refuse to recognise the f**king country there can be no accords, treaties or peace. It seems as if you want what goes on now to continue...:rolleyes:
Oh come off it. They recognised them and they got nothing, but further demands of recognition. You ignore this absurd moving of the goal posts by Israel. There will be no accords, as the Palestinians will never recognised Israel right to be racist against them.
Again, you ignore the simple thrust of my arguement, that any recognition by Hamas of Israel is worthless, due to Israel demands of recognition as a Jewish state, which is something that no Palestinian groups will ever do, as the entire demand is absurd racism, that not people would ever give into.Serenity Now! wrote: »Well guess what, now that Netan and the mad Galicianer are running things, it all takes a leap backwards now especially if Lieberman gets his loyalty bills passed (doubtful they will though) so you can lean back in your sanctimonious sofa and preach it all over again.
Ah, man you are really funny. You think things have gone backward with the current government? The only difference is that current guys are more honest about there intentions.
You can call me sanctimonious all you like, but if you choose to ignore the very simple fact, that the PLO recognised Israel and right now Israel is now making a demand for recognition as a Jewish state, which is why I am saying that recognising Israel is pointless. Sure, I am all for Hamas recognising Israel and renouncing violence, but I am not fool and I know damn well it will get them no where. Just like it got Arafat no where, in fact what Arafat got, was twice as many colonies in the West Bank.
You basically decide to ignore this and pretend that if Hamas recognised Israel, that they wouldn't make this absurd demand, that there already making of Fatah. Now if Israel dropped this demand towards Fatah, then I would most certainly think recognition would serve a purpose, but as it stands it won't change a thing, except Israel making more and more childish and absurd demands of the Palestinians to stall the peace process, so they can steal more land.
I am not against recogntion, far from it, but I am not stupid enough to actually believe it will change a single damn thing, as I already know that it won't be enough for Israel and they will make further demands, as they are doing at present, which is something that you choose to ignore or try to excuse like you did above.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Oh ffs. Fatah recognises the state of Israel and has been working with the state of Israel towards some semblance of a solution. Which party in this trifecta of f**k-ups doesn't? Yep, Hamas. Thats why I mentioned them ie. because you conveniently didn't.
Smartarse answers don't give your post any more weight, by the way.
It actually could be considered a Jewish state. Ireland, Spain, Italy, Portugal are all considered Roman Catholic countries. Of course, this is all irelevant sidelining from issues that actually make a difference.
At what point when signing accords with Israel, was Arafat told that there was a further condition? (no)
If they refuse to recognise the f**king country there can be no accords, treaties or peace. It seems as if you want what goes on now to continue...:rolleyes:
Well guess what, now that Netan and the mad Galicianer are running things, it all takes a leap backwards now especially if Lieberman gets his loyalty bills passed (doubtful they will though) so you can lean back in your sanctimonious sofa and preach it all over again.
Maybe you should calm down and accept that other people are not going to agree with you. Belligerence does not "give your post any more weight, by the way"
Why does Israel need the Arabs and Christians to define itself as a Jewish State when no other democracy in the world does this ? The religious ethos of a country may be defined as the dominant religion at the time but as I said before, only the Islamic Republics have their religion in their titles. To force people to exclude themselves for the population is racist in the extreme and all this recognition business is ridiculous anyway until negotiations are at an end.
It is pathetic to see a supposidly "modern" country whining to be recognised by a people whom they have oppressed for the last 61 years0 -
I'm calm. No worries. This is an internet forum. Not a court of law.Maybe you should calm down and accept that other people are not going to agree with you. Belligerence does not "give your post any more weight, by the way"
Those people have been under the kibosh for a lot longer than 61 years by Turks, British, Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians and Iraqis too. The current situation wouldn't have happened had Nasser not rallied to destroy the country in the first place.Why does Israel need the Arabs and Christians to define itself as a Jewish State when no other democracy in the world does this ? The religious ethos of a country may be defined as the dominant religion at the time but as I said before, only the Islamic Republics have their religion in their titles. To force people to exclude themselves for the population is racist in the extreme and all this recognition business is ridiculous anyway until negotiations are at an end.
It is pathetic to see a supposidly "modern" country whining to be recognised by a people whom they have oppressed for the last 61 years
I don't think many here realise how split down the middle Israel actually is when it comes to what to do with its position there. The Loyalty to Israel mandate that Lieberman is putting forward is not as clear cut a result for example as some might predict.
Its obvious that Israel is a Jewish state. This means f**k all however. Arab-Israelis still have the same status whether its a Jewish State or a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle State. Legislation that gets passed is what matters. Not some pointless flippin' semantics. Palestinian Arabs called Israelis, Yehuda which simply means Jews.
The fact that one party from three refuses to accept Israel as a country (under whatever bloody name you like) is in fact important, despite wes' denial. The only obvious way to a peaceful solution is via compromise from all three sides. The first step to this is recognition of a country (Israel and Arab Palestine) The way some folk post here, you'd swear all the gazumping has been Israeli govt's doing. The next step is to either get the current incumbents to form and implement concessions. Its obvious what these concessions from the Israeli govt and Hamas should be.0 -
Serenity Now! wrote: »Those people have been under the kibosh for a lot longer than 61 years by Turks, British, Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians and Iraqis too. The current situation wouldn't have happened had Nasser not rallied to destroy the country in the first place.
Nasser, didn't make Israel colonize Palestinian land. Thats a decision they made, trying to shift blame is absurd and pretty typical, Israel is never at fault. Its is nothing short of hilarious you are trying to blame Nasser on all of Israel actions.
Also, a similar argument could be made that the conflict would not exists, if Zionists didn't decide to invade Palestine and engage in the colonial project.Serenity Now! wrote: »I don't think many here realise how split down the middle Israel actually is when it comes to what to do with its position there. The Loyalty to Israel mandate that Lieberman is putting forward is not as clear cut a result for example as some might predict.
Well, it doesn't really matter as long as the current government is in power and moderate elements in Israel are sidelined. In fact moderate elements on both sides are completely sidelined at present.Serenity Now! wrote: »Its obvious that Israel is a Jewish state. This means f**k all however. Arab-Israelis still have the same status whether its a Jewish State or a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle State. Legislation that gets passed is what matters. Not some pointless flippin' semantics. Palestinian Arabs called Israelis, Yehuda which simply means Jews.
Well, for the Palestinians in Israel, it isn't just semantics, it results in real life discrimination.
Also, if it was pointless semantics, than Israel would not be demanding of Fatah, to be recognized as a "Jewish" state, despite that fact they have already recognized Israel. So according to the Israeli government it isn't pointless semantics, but its important enough to stall the peace process over.Serenity Now! wrote: »The fact that one party from three refuses to accept Israel as a country (under whatever bloody name you like) is in fact important, despite wes' denial. The only obvious way to a peaceful solution is via compromise from all three sides. The first step to this is recognition of a country (Israel and Arab Palestine) The way some folk post here, you'd swear all the gazumping has been Israeli govt's doing. The next step is to either get the current incumbents to form and implement concessions. Its obvious what these concessions from the Israeli govt and Hamas should be.
I ain't denying anything. I have never said that Hamas has recognized Israel. In fact, I even said that they should recognize Israel, but that it would get them no where and I explained my reasoning. So where my denial is coming from, is certainly beyond me. Now, of course instead of addressing my argument, you try and dance around Israels pointless racist demand for recognition as a "Jewish" state.
It should be pointed out that the Israeli government does not recognize Palestine in anyway shape or form and they are explicitly against a 2 state solution and have reneged on past agreements. All of these things which Hamas are guilty of as well.
I agree that both sides need to mutually recognize each other, but neither Hamas nor Israel recognize either nation. In the case of Fatah, Israel has decided to make an additional childish demand of recognition as a "Jewish" state and I have yet to see any evidence that such a demand would not be made of Hamas, if they recognized Israel.
In fact, you completely ignore this extra demand, which seems to have only one purpose and thats to frustrate the peace process, more than it already has. So as I argued before, even if Hamas recognized Israel, its seem very likely Israel will make the same extra demand of Hamas. Also, Israel is actually making a rather big deal out of being recognized as a "Jewish" state, which is frustrating the progress already made with Fatah. Seriously, why isn't the recognition made by Fatah of Israel not e enough for them? Why the extra hoop? This additional demand is another obstacle put there by Israel, for no other reason than to slow down the peace process and buy more time for more land theft.
Its very simple, the racist demand being made by Israel is unreasonable and the Palestinian are hardly going to sell out there fellow Palestinians in Israel, by accepting this extra demand of recognition of Israel as a "Jewish" state.0 -
I wasnt blaming Nasser for "all of Israel's actions". I was blaming him for setting the scene for the Six Day War in 1967. So try not to pettily twist what I say out of proportion.Nasser, didn't make Israel colonize Palestinian land. Thats a decision they made, trying to shift blame is absurd and pretty typical, Israel is never at fault. Its is nothing short of hilarious you are trying to blame Nasser on all of Israel actions
You mean if European goyim didn't treat Jews like sh*t on a shoe? Of course Jews would not have flocked to the region as they did during the beginning of the 20th century (as a result of pogroms across Europe - even in 1904 Ireland), the 30s & 40s (the Holocaust), the expulsions of the 50s and 60s and then 1989 onwards following the breakup of the Soviet Union.Also, a similar argument could be made that the conflict would not exists, if Zionists didn't decide to invade Palestine and engage in the colonial project
Would you prefer if Jews just fecked off somewhere else instead during these times?
*sigh* Since its Fatah/PLO you keep bringing up, can I remind you that they've already recognised Israel as a Jewish state. Arab nations refer to Israel as a Jewish state. It makes f**k all difference.I ain't denying anything. I have never said that Hamas has recognized Israel. In fact, I even said that they should recognize Israel, but that it would get them no where and I explained my reasoning. So where my denial is coming from, is certainly beyond me. Now, of course instead of addressing my argument, you try and dance around Israels pointless racist demand for recognition as a "Jewish" state.
It should be pointed out that the Israeli government does not recognize Palestine in anyway shape or form and they are explicitly against a 2 state solution and have reneged on past agreements. All of these things which Hamas are guilty of as well.
I agree that both sides need to mutually recognize each other, but neither Hamas nor Israel recognize either nation. In the case of Fatah, Israel has decided to make an additional childish demand of recognition as a "Jewish" state and I have yet to see any evidence that such a demand would not be made of Hamas, if they recognized Israel.
In fact, you completely ignore this extra demand, which seems to have only one purpose and thats to frustrate the peace process, more than it already has. So as I argued before, even if Hamas recognized Israel, its seem very likely Israel will make the same extra demand of Hamas. Also, Israel is actually making a rather big deal out of being recognized as a "Jewish" state, which is frustrating the progress already made with Fatah. Seriously, why isn't the recognition made by Fatah of Israel not e enough for them? Why the extra hoop? This additional demand is another obstacle put there by Israel, for no other reason than to slow down the peace process and buy more time for more land theft.
Its very simple, the racist demand being made by Israel is unreasonable and the Palestinian are hardly going to sell out there fellow Palestinians in Israel, by accepting this extra demand of recognition of Israel as a "Jewish" state.
Netanyahu refuses to accept the two-state solution and keeps diverting to the Iranian/Syrian problem. Thats all the govt needs to do to stall any pace process. Just like he did following Rabin's murder. This is where the Israeli govt stalls for the main part.
The Arabs in Gaza have also shown f**k all intention towards a two-state solution.
You can sideline all you like about the alleged problem of what kind of state it is but if you think this is what's stalling any peaceful solutions then you're deluded.0 -
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Serenity Now! wrote: »I wasnt blaming Nasser for "all of Israel's actions". I was blaming him for setting the scene for the Six Day War in 1967. So try not to pettily twist what I say out of proportion.
Fair enough, it certainly sounded the other way to me.Serenity Now! wrote: »You mean if European goyim didn't treat Jews like sh*t on a shoe? Of course Jews would not have flocked to the region as they did during the beginning of the 20th century (as a result of pogroms across Europe - even in 1904 Ireland), the 30s & 40s (the Holocaust), the expulsions of the 50s and 60s and then 1989 onwards following the breakup of the Soviet Union.
Would you prefer if Jews just fecked off somewhere else instead during these times?
So the solution is to go and follow a racist ideology and ethnic cleanse the indigenous population of Palestine? Well, thats interesting. You do realise that the people the Zionists invaded aren't really going to give a crap about what Europeans done to them, right? Why would they? Hardly there fault now, isn't it. There hardly going to roll over and die, so that a bunch of racist Europeans can steal there land from them.
Oh wow, the operative word you use above is "European". Its bizare that you are justifying an invasion of Palestine this way. You see it very simple. Palestinians were not responsible for what was done to Jews in Europe and Russia. So in the context of what Zionists did to the Palestinians, there are no excuses. The Zionists were the aggressors, who are now persecuting the Palestinians. Past persecutions by Europeans is a rubbish excuse.
Honestly, if we are to go by your logic than the Palestinians have far more reasons to be pissed at Israel. As Israel are the ones who stole there homeland, drove them from it, made them stateless and has been screwing them over for the last 60 years.
Again, I find it nothing short of repugnant that anyone would excuse racism and ethnic cleansing performed by Zionists against the Palestinains, because of European persecution. Its nothing short of absurd that some think 2 wrongs make a right, and it shows why Zionism is so inherently racist and nonsensical. For goodness sake, the Zionists aren't even taking revenge on the people who persecuted them.Serenity Now! wrote: »*sigh* Since its Fatah/PLO you keep bringing up, can I remind you that they've already recognised Israel as a Jewish state. Arab nations refer to Israel as a Jewish state. It makes f**k all difference.
Oh wow, you really are still insisting on being wrong.
Its amazing you are still talking such absurd nonsense. Honestly:
Netanyahu demands Palestinians recognize 'Jewish state'
You see Fatah didn't recognize Israel as a Jewish state firstly, hence the bizare demand being made by Netanyahu.
Also, here:
Palestinians harden refusal to accept a 'Jewish state'
As can be seen above the Palestinians there talking about are Fatah and they did recognise Israel in 1988 I think, but not explicitly as a Jewish state. This demand has been made now by Netanyahu, but also earlier by the "moderate" Olmert.
So to put it simply, you are factually incorrect in what your saying, and if recognition (as a "Jewish") was so unimportant as you say, then why did the current and the previous Israeli Prime Ministers, demand specifit recognition from Fatah, of Israel being a Jewish state? Clearly, its important to them and it is a extra demand being made on the Palestinians, which as I said will make any recognition by Hamas that is short of this demand worthless, and we will be back to square one. This is the point I have been making, that what Israel is demanding here, is an extra and ultimately pointless impediment to the peace process and quite frankly it doesn't need anymore.Serenity Now! wrote: »Netanyahu refuses to accept the two-state solution and keeps diverting to the Iranian/Syrian problem. Thats all the govt needs to do to stall any pace process. Just like he did following Rabin's murder. This is where the Israeli govt stalls for the main part.
The Arabs in Gaza have also shown f**k all intention towards a two-state solution.
Yeah, I already mentioned that Hamas hold exactly the same position.
Also, Israel can use multiple methods to stall the process, you know, just in case Obama disagree's (and he is far more cautious that Israel would like) with with how to handle Iran/Syria. So they come up with this racist "Jewish" state nonsense.Serenity Now! wrote: »You can sideline all you like about the alleged problem of what kind of state it is but if you think this is what's stalling any peaceful solutions then you're deluded.
Hardly, its one of the reasons that stalling things. My point has always been that it is an additional impediment and I have stated so in previous posts. So I am hardly deluded.0
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