The biggest underachiever in Premiership history...

astrofool

redzerdrog wrote: »

are you on drugs?

1 champions league
2 FA cups
2 leauge cups
2 charity shield;)
1 uefa cup
2 uefa super cups

not to mention the other personal awards

you think he underachevied:rolleyes:

Also, 3 years where he's been at his best on the pitch, and no trophies to show for it.

premierstone

Saying that Cantona was over-rated I can accept, but to suggest with a straight face that Viduka was/is as intelligent as Bergkamp as a footballer is without doubt one of the funniest things i've ever read fcukin comical

JCos

The original post has to be a wind up.

premierstone

astrofool wrote: »

Also, 3 years where he's been at his best on the pitch, and no trophies to show for it.

Im no stevie G fan but what are you talkin about, altough in a way I guess you're paying him a very big compliment if you think what he has achieved is under achieving, you seem to think that ''team'' trophies are the best way of gauging a footballers achievement so by that logic Celtic and Rangers players are among the greatest achievers iin world football and every Irish international player in the history of the state has under achieved cos we havent won any trophies

Draupnir

Mr Alan wrote: »

I honestly don't know. I'm 24 years of age. I've always watched football as long as i can remeber with varying degrees of interest at various points in my life. I saw & remember a lot of Cantona.

Does my age stop me rating players like Best, Dalglish, Charlton, Neal despite never having watched them in my life? Or is that allowed? its a silly can of worms to open Boggles especially when you take into account that a lot of Itd fans who will tell you of the wonders of Cantona are a similar age to myself.

I agree that Cantona was as much about the influence of his personality over the other players as he was about ability, but it's outrageous to say that Viduka is a better player than him.

event

Johnny Utah wrote: »

LOL, are you serious? Comparing Viduka to the likes of Cantona, Bergkamp and Drogba. You're wrong kinaldo, very wrong. Viduka is an alright striker for a mid-table team (Leeds, Boro, Newcastle etc), not the top 4, and he's coming to the end of his career now. Most players find their right level anyway.

except when he joined us we were around the top 4 and finished there for a few years. hardly midtable at that time

Boggles wrote: »

The same could be said about Zidane,etc in fairness.

All talented players. But all over rated.

are you saying zidane was over-rated?

Mr Alan

ok, i'll retract that statement boggles & instead i'll say that Cantona & Viduka are both very good players & there isn't that much between them.

92 goals in 235 games for nearly always struggling teams -VS- 70 goals in 156 games for the best team/s in England

Theres not much in it tbh.

Bubs101

event wrote: »

are you saying zidane was over-rated?

There was a big thread about this ages ago but Zidane is the most overated player I have ever consistently seen. Man was a big game player but his lack of league success with great teams built around him is proof for me he was never that good and was nowhere near consistent enough for 38 games a season

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

ok, i'll retract that statement boggles & instead i'll say that Cantona & Viduka are both very good players & there isn't that much between them.

So after just 3 or 4 posts you have changed your opinion, I'm disappointed in you Alan. I'm sure if I kept going I could whittle you down further. But alas as much as I like discussing football Cantona v Viduka is a debate I really have no interest in.

I'd rate it up there with who was better Oliver Kahn or Roy Keane.

Aidric

Michael Owen (injury free).

Mr Alan

Boggles wrote: »

So after just 3 or 4 posts you have changed your opinion, I'm disappointed in you Alan.

Realising when you say something in the heat of the moment that is in actual fact, not definately true and subsequently retracting it, is something you should try yourself sometime Boggles!

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Realising when you say something in the heat of the moment that is in actual fact, not definately true and subsequently retracting it, is something you should try yourself sometime Boggles!

If I have ever say something that stupid Al, I'll certainly consider it.

Frisbee

JCos wrote: »

The original post has to be a wind up.

He's a Newcastle fan so unfortunately I'd say he believes it...

UnitedIrishman

To be honest it's very hard to decide who was an underachiever and who wasn't because we don't really know the height of a players ability if they never reached it or we've never seen it. The OP mentions Mark Viduka and his hat-trick against Liverpool but as far as I recall, thats the only time he really took a game by the scruff of the neck. I could argue Dalian Atkinson or Danny Cadamateri were underachievers too.

Fact is, Viduka just wasn't good enough to break into a title winning side. Same with the majority of footballers in England. Only a select few win something every year. Viduka was at the peak of his ambitions at Leeds when they were challenging for the title - so it's hard to say he underachieved.

And to say Viduka was better than Cantona - madness. I know there's a bit of rose tinted glasses in this reply but Cantona was a gifted footballer. You can't compare goal ratios because Cantona didn't play just as an out and out striker - it was usually behind Sparky or Cole at United. Of course I wouldn't put him in the same bracket as Zidane and co. but he was far, far better than Viduka.

JCos

I'm a Liverpool fan and I can easily admit to the fact the Cantona was streets ahead of Viduka in all facets of the game. To compare them is lunacy.

Mr. Presentable

Massimo Taibi?

eZe^

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

You can't compare goal ratios because Cantona didn't play just as an out and out striker - it was usually behind Sparky or Cole at United.

Of course you can... Raul played as a 2nd striker his entire career, playing behind Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy in the past few years. He has still scored over 300 goals in his career...

UnitedIrishman

Actually now that I think of it, Robbie Fowler was probably the biggest underachiever I can rememer. Unreal talented and natural finisher (better than Owen in that respect), won a couple of trophies with Liverpool but should have been an England international for years, should have won more. Just didn't have the right head on his shoulders.

JCos

eZe^ wrote: »

Of course you can... Raul played as a 2nd striker his entire career, playing behind Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy in the past few years. He has still scored over 300 goals in his career...

Bollocks. Raul is as close to an out and out striker as that you can get.

inforfun

Le Tissier an underachiever?
Keeping Southampton in the PL for all those years is a bigger achievement than winning that league with man Utd in my opinion.
Look what happened when he stopped.

Underachiever? Michael Owen. Or maybe he was just never as good as the English (media) thought

UnitedIrishman

eZe^ wrote: »

Of course you can... Raul played as a 2nd striker his entire career, playing behind Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy in the past few years. He has still scored over 300 goals in his career...

Yes but Raul is more of a poacher than creator. Cantona had some amount of assists at United in his time and had the ability to create something from nothing.

Also according to Wikipedia Raul has scored 223 league goalsin 520(I know he scored a lot more in Europe but Eric only played 3 seasons in Europe) , compared to Cantonas 131 in 369. 0.42 goal ratio to 0.35 - not a massive difference.

Malice

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Actually now that I think of it, Robbie Fowler was probably the biggest underachiever I can rememer. Unreal talented and natural finisher (better than Owen in that respect), won a couple of trophies with Liverpool but should have been an England international for years, should have won more. Just didn't have the right head on his shoulders.

I think you'll find injuries were probably responsible for Fowler not really achieving all that he should have. As for not having the right head on his shoulders, what do you mean by that?

My first thought on opening the thread was Stan Collymore. I thought he was an awesome player while at Notts Forest and I was delighted when Roy Evans signed him for Liverpool. Despite the pressure of being Britain's most expensive footballer he seemed to settle into the team immediately scoring a peach of a goal against Sheffield Wednesday on his debut. He formed a formidable partnership with an injury-free Robbie Fowler. Between them they scored what, 40 or 50 goals in the 1995-1996 season?

Then, for various reasons, it all went tits-up. Liverpool somehow extracted £7 million from Villa for his services. Things didn't work out in Birmingham so he went to Bradford, then to Leicester and finally off to Spain before retiring from playing football altogether at 30.

RasTa

Has to be Alan Shearer for me, should have won so much more.

Mr Alan

Collymore is a great shout actually.

UnitedIrishman

malice_ wrote: »

I think you'll find injuries were probably responsible for Fowler not really achieving all that he should have. As for not having the right head on his shoulders, what do you mean by that?

By not having the right head on his shoulders, I mean the different contraversies and eventsh e got himself into - the whole 'Spice Boys' thing, the Everton celebration, the Le Saux incident, the bust-up with Phil Thompson and Houllier. He was still playing good football after his injuries but should have kept his head down like others. It was only when he was at Leeds injuries really ruined him.

pipeliner

astrofool wrote: »

It sounds like Mr. Cantona caused a lot of childhood trauma in the Alan's house.

Viduka was wanted by Utd a few seasons ago (possibly the season before they got Smith), I think he would have been a great signing for them, however, I'm not sure about biggest underachiever (i'd disregard Le Tiss as he never moved club, which was vital if he wanted to achieve more, small pond and all that).

Newcastle as a team underachieved for a good portion of the 90's, as said, Shay Given could probably have given a top 4 team that extra dimension needed to win more trophies. Stevie G has definitely underachieved so far, as has Torres (at least they'll get the chances to put that right).

I get a bit annoyed when people say that stevie g underachieved. The only trophies he did not win was the premier league and international trophies.

To say shearer was an under achiever is also a joke. When at newcastle, he made them a top 4 team almost single handed. Since he left....

Malice

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

By not having the right head on his shoulders, I mean the different contraversies and eventsh e got himself into - the whole 'Spice Boys' thing, the Everton celebration, the Le Saux incident, the bust-up with Phil Thompson and Houllier. He was still playing good football after his injuries but should have kept his head down like others. It was only when he was at Leeds injuries really ruined him.

As far as I was concerned at the time as long as Fowler continued to produce the goods on the pitch he could do what he liked off it. I reckon that if Liverpool had only beaten Man Utd in the FA Cup final in 1996 the Spice Boys tag would never have been as widely-used.

As for the Everton celebration, it was a spur of the moment thing in response to years of abuse. I found it funny at the time and still do. I can see how people would react negatively though.

The Graeme Le Saux incident was blown out of proportion as well in my opinion. Both players were engaging in a bit of banter. What most people forget is that Le Saux clattered into Fowler with his elbow later on in the match and escaped any sort of punishment.

Lastly, regarding injuries, Fowler missed most of the second half of the 1997-1998 season after rupturing kee ligaments in the Merseyside derby. He then missed most of the 1999-2000 with ankle and achilles tendon injuries (I think) so I don't think it was "only when he was at Leeds injuries really ruined him".

pipeliner wrote:

I get a bit annoyed when people say that stevie g underachieved. The only trophies he did not win was the premier league and international trophies.

Stop talking about him in the past tense. He hasn't finished playing yet!

Fratton Fred

Tony EH wrote: »

I wouldn't call Tiss lazy as such. I think, like all strikers, he had periods when the ball just wasn't near him. A fault with the support, more than anything else.

Also, didn't he stay with the Saints because he loved the club? I think he had plenty of chances to move away if he wished.

Paul John Gascoigne

Imagine what a player he would have been if he kept his nose clean.

ITT-Pat

Robbie Fowler?

Theresalwaysone

Yeah Gazza for sure I would've thought.

premierstone

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Robbie Fowler?

English soccer player used to play for Liverpool, not the best looking chap in the world, ah come on you must remember him

yerayeah

I'm just going to throw this one out there...



...brace yourselves... Diego Forlan:pac: never really lit up Old Trafford but has been a much bigger success since moving to Spain, averaging nearly 20 goals a season.

astrofool

yerayeah wrote: »

I'm just going to throw this one out there...



...brace yourselves... Diego Forlan:pac: never really lit up Old Trafford but has been a much bigger success since moving to Spain, averaging nearly 20 goals a season.

You could also include, world cup winner, Zidane antagoniser, Shevchenko despiser, Marco Materazzi in that case

Xavi6

Mr Alan wrote: »

not fishing.

most non-utd fans see Cantona for what he was, important signing for Utds success, but among the most over-rated players ever to play in England.

eZe^ wrote: »

Cantona was good, but imo was the most overrated player ever to live, the amount of people who put him up with Cryuff, Maradonna, Pele, Zidane, Maldini, Ronaldo is kinda ridiculous.

Spot on lads

Boggles wrote: »

The same could be said about Zidane,etc in fairness.

All talented players. But all over rated.

Does not compute

kinaldo

I agree with whoever mentioned Collymore, an unbelievable talent, if only he'd had his head screwed on....

Back to my Viduka argument; and this is purely speculative of course, but ask yourself who do you think great Premiership defenders like Desailly, Terry, Campbell, Stam etc. would prefer to mark...

Considering what Viduka has done to them down the years, I'm guessing not him. Many times he's been described as unplayable.

Cantona on the other hand would usually remain anonymous for 90 mins against good defenders.

kinaldo

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

The OP mentions Mark Viduka and his hat-trick against Liverpool but as far as I recall, thats the only time he really took a game by the scruff of the neck.

It was FOUR GOALS in a 4-3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jRjUYAobZ8

chopperbyrne

inforfun wrote: »

Le Tissier an underachiever?
Keeping Southampton in the PL for all those years is a bigger achievement than winning that league with man Utd in my opinion.
Look what happened when he stopped.

Underachiever? Michael Owen. Or maybe he was just never as good as the English (media) thought

Michael Owen was world class and only recurring injuries have stopped him from being the premier leagues and Englands top scorer ever.

Years Club App (Gls)
1996–2004 Liverpool 216 (118)
2004–2005 Real Madrid 35 (13)
2005– Newcastle United 70 (26)

eagle eye

Mr Alan wrote: »

most non-utd fans see Cantona for what he was, important signing for Utds success, but among the most over-rated players ever to play in England.

That bit is ridiculous. Dislikeable certainly but overrated he was not.

eZe^ wrote: »

Cantona was good, but imo was the most overrated player ever to live, the amount of people who put him up with Cryuff, Maradonna, Pele, Zidane, Maldini, Ronaldo is kinda ridiculous. Although most of them are Utd fans... Still better than Viduka though...

Look I am a big fan of Paolo Maldini and always have been, but putting him in that company is just going too far. And Cantona does not belong there either by the way.

weemcd

eagle eye wrote: »

That bit is ridiculous. Dislikeable certainly but overrated he was not.


Look I am a big fan of Paolo Maldini and always have been, but putting him in that company is just going too far. And Cantona does not belong there either by the way.

If any player deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the greats, its him:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

kinaldo wrote: »

Back to my Viduka argument; and this is purely speculative of course, but ask yourself who do you think great Premiership defenders like Desailly, Terry, Campbell, Stam etc. would prefer to mark...

Actually, I remember an interview with one of those guys (Or maybe it was Adams?) who said the hardest player he has ever had to defend against was was none other than.....

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Michael Owen was world class and only recurring injuries have stopped him from being the premier leagues and Englands top scorer ever.

Years Club App (Gls)
1996–2004 Liverpool 216 (118)
2004–2005 Real Madrid 35 (13)
2005– Newcastle United 70 (26)

_blank_

Biggest Underachiever in Premiership History : Liverpool Football Club

Sherifu

Good edit. Well made.

staker

Veron was one of the biggest underachievers,based on transfer fee alone.
Shay Given has underachieved with Newcastle,but was probably their best player for a lot of his tenure there.
The player who underachieved the most through blatant laziness was Sergei Rebrov both at Spurs and West Ham.

Headshot

staker wrote: »

Veron and Ballack are two of the biggest underachievers,based on their transfer fees alone.
Shay Given has underachieved with Newcastle,but was probably their best player for a lot of his tenure there.
The player who underachieved the most through blatant laziness was Sergei Rebrov both at Spurs and West Ham.

ahhhhhhh

chelsea got him on the free

Malice

Staker I think you could have left the transfer fee point in your post, just taken Ballack's name out of it or added "estimated weekly wage" in as well .

staker

Yeah I s'pose Malice
Invariably there's gonna be some SS stat pulled out of a hat to argue my opinion,but that's to be expected. Still think he's collecting the pension though!!

Morzadec

I think 'Underachiever' has to be more clearly defined.

People throwing in names such as Given, Shearer, and Le Tissier are basing it on the fact that they seemingly 'wasted' their talent playing for teams that didn't achieve much. But then again their personal achievements can not be doubted, and the point has already been made that keeping their respective teams in the Premiership is a massive achievement.

I think if we're looking for the biggest underachiever we should be looking at a player whose all-round ability and talent did not transfer into consistent performances on the pitch. You can't say that about Shearer, Le Tissier and Given (or Gerrard, although I think the inclusion of his name in this thread is ludicrous given the personal awards and team trophies he has won, a lot of them as captain).

Morzadec

Des wrote: »

Biggest Underachiever in Premiership History : Liverpool Football Club

What are you taking 'Underachiever' as meaning?

I think the OP is referring to players whose talent did not match their achievements. I've never seen a Liverpool squad that was the best in the Premiership, therefore I would argue they have not underachived as such.

The 04-05 season Liverpool underachieved, finishing 5th and pipped to 4th by a seemingly weaker Everton team that cost far less to assemble. (Then again this underachievement is arguable overshadowed by the overachievement of winning the Champions League the same year).

Every year since then I would argue, under Rafa, Liverpool have not underachieved, given the players at disposal and the funds available.

In the mid 90s and some of Houlliers years there were probably some underachievements. However if you were looking for the biggest underachieving club I would posit Newcastle considering the size of their club, the amount of fans, and the amount of money spent. Spurs might be up there as well.

mayordenis

Boggles wrote: »

How do you quantify this?

Viduka games 496 goals 237
Cantona games 432 goals 161

Viduka in his pomp would make Cantona in his pomp look pretty bad tbh.
Cantona was the final piece of the puzzle and a figurehead. Nothing more.

Doodee

Collymore