Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

Nodin

Fred83 wrote: »

its an awful insult to the victims,yes they finally where believed that abuse did happen,but the people that did it where protected by the gov/church,now the same thing is happening again since the report blacked out or changed the abusers names.

Thats due to a court case brought by the 'Christian' Brothers in 2004. Neither living or dead members could be named as a result.

97i9y3941

i often think,the church is to receive any respect,they should turn their abusers over to the police like any person would

The_Minister

GuanYin wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why they are not prosecuting these individuals?

One of the main aspects of the deal was that a lesser standard of proof was needed in order for people to claim money than would be legally acceptable if the issues had gone to court.
If these cases had been tried on a civil foot, let alone a criminal one, the vast majority of victims would have been unable to claim anything, because they can't prove anything.

paddyboy23

these evil men and women should face justice how many goverments new this was going on and did notting and a lot of there sons and daughters are in this dail and they will do the same notting i myself felt there leather belts on cold mornings we were lucky we could go home them poor boys and girls never stood a chance everything these brave men and women want should be giving what ever it takes by this lousy goverment to pay back for what was done by state and church to them this is another bad day for ireland

KINGVictor

I was very unfortunate to listen to a victim of these atrousities on RTE 6 O'Clock news (Christine Buckley) and it sent shivers down my spine.It was so unbelievable as I listened to the horrific and horrendous actions that took place (and most probably taking place till today in our society today,albeit in a more organised fashion).

As a Christain ( and proud to be one),I was mortified by some of the allegations that were made against these Catholic institutions.Initially I thought the allegations were exaggerations and I would beg for the forgiveness of the victims as no one can properly comprehend the effects these actions must have had on their lives and I think it is about time the Catholic church takes ownership and responsiblity for these despicable crimes,it is very apparent that even the leadership of the church was somewhat culpable as they could have investigated this allegations and should have the taken neccesary actions at the time rather than let it degenerate into the present messy situation.

One poster mentioned he hoped that this report would eventually lead to Godless Ireland..I completely disagree.Despite all these we cannot make blanket judgements and imply that the country as a whole has not benefitted from Christainity,a lot of homeless,poor,and vulnerable people who have been aided by the church in their hour of need would certainly disagree.

Yes some elements in the Catholic church have been disgraceful and utterly unbecoming in their behaviour but they should not used as a yardstick for judging the entire church...that would simply be very myopic.One of the fundamental tenets of the Christain religion is that everyone has a free will and as such cannot and should not be coerced to believe in God ( unlike a lot of other religions).Out of every 12 ,there is a Judas and it is absolutely impossible to police every person to examine if they are adhering to the rules and regulations of the Church.

In recent times,I have come to the conclusion that peodophilism has been very prevailent and endemic in Europe (although we dont like to hear or acknowledge that fact) and it has eaten very deep to the fabric of the society.I had a discussion with a friend of mine who was researching on this topic and he told me that it is common practise in some places in Ireland ( although it is never talked about or mentioned for fear of stigmatisation).

The honest truth is that if we could pursue with the same vigour in which the Catholic Institutions were scrutinized ( and I totally agree it was neccessary) and try to investigate everyone who has been abused physically ,emotionally and sexually by family members,the results would be shocking!!! and probably a lot more .

Christine Buckely made an interesting statement today when she said the girls in her school were been offered to outsiders for sexual purposes, so essentially I would not be surprised that a lot of the people that carried out some of this violations were people on the outside and that would explain why this was covered up for so long.

In summary,I think we should look at this as a systematic failure as a country and not just take swipes at Christains...as we have heard of Judges,gardai,teachers,lawyers,doctors,bricklayers,Christains,Atheists etc that have been guilty of the same.It is more of a social problem than a religious one.

Darragh29

KINGVictor wrote: »

One poster mentioned he hoped that this report would eventually lead to Godless Ireland..I completely disagree.Despite all these we cannot make blanket judgements and imply that the country as a whole has not benefitted from Christainity,a lot of homeless,poor,and vulnerable people who have been aided by the church in their hour of need would certainly disagree.

Yes some elements in the Catholic church have been disgraceful and utterly unbecoming in their behaviour but they should not used as a yardstick for judging the entire church...that would simply be very myopic.One of the fundamental tenets of the Christain religion is that everyone has a free will and as such cannot and should not be coerced to believe in God ( unlike a lot of other religions).Out of every 12 ,there is a Judas and it is absolutely impossible to police every person to examine if they are adhering to the rules and regulations of the Church.

The place for religion is in your personal life. If people like yourself could keep your religion where it ought to be, which is inside your hall door, then a lot of this crap wouldn't have happened in the first place. Unfortunately though the Catholic Church were screaming and roaring fire and brimstone sermons at anyone who disagreed with their philosophy when it came to any matter for many years.

Unfortunately it was those within priviliged positions within the church that have failed people the most, those like Cardinal Desmond O' Connell for a start, who up until a few years ago was trying every legal trick in the book to keep these files disclosed. Now this is a man who is highly versed in church law and in theology, yet somehow he figures that it is better to continue covering these things up than doing what any 7 year old making their first communion would be able to do, which is be guided by the truth... What we are seeing here is widespread rotten CORRUPTION and underhand manipulation by those at the very highest levels within the Catholic Church.

All those senior religious in the Sisters of Mercy, how come it never occured to them to do the CHRISTIAN thing that ANY 7 YEAR OLD MAKING THEIR COMMUNION COULD TELL YOU TO DO, and show compassion, understanding, and assistance to those who needed it???

It wouldn't be half as bad if the same people who have been responsible for this terrible scandal, were not going around spending every f*cking waking moment of their lives talking about "Christian values", the "Truth", "Compassion", "What would Jesus want to you do?", etc...

Seth Brundle

What I would like to know (and haven't yet been able to read the entire report) is:
* how many children died suddenly or disappeared overnight?
* how many of the abusive clergy members are still working?
* are any of the public administration involved in covering any of this up still working in the public sector?
* how much did the church spend on legal defences? (I'm not suggesting that the accused were entitled to a defence though)

Andrew H

Id also like to know why/if these organisations (Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy etc.) are still operating in Ireland. If so they should be forced to leave our Country and forfeit any lands, buildings, bank accounts that they hold!

97i9y3941

kbannon wrote: »

What I would like to know (and haven't yet been able to read the entire report) is:
* how many children died suddenly or disappeared overnight?
* how many of the abusive clergy members are still working?
* are any of the public administration involved in covering any of this up still working in the public sector?
* how much did the church spend on legal defences? (I'm not suggesting that the accused were entitled to a defence though)

i dont think we ever know that,since gov and church are 2 different organisation,both will only give what they want to hear.

Liber8or

Religion has no place in education in this country. Simple as that.

The government should move to have all lands or buildings taken off any Christian Brothers or Sisters of Mercy. This money should be used to set up a fund for these victims to receive councilling, for the rest of their life if it takes that. It is the minimum this government owes these victims.

Religion is a personal belief and act, it has no place in the public. Children, being the most vulnerable should not be influenced by this.

As far as I am concerned, Christianity is in this country as a guest and answers to the people. The government represents the people, this institution MUST answer for this travesty.

KINGVictor

Darragh29 wrote: »

The place for religion is in your personal life. If people like yourself could keep your religion where it ought to be, which is inside your hall door, then a lot of this crap wouldn't have happened in the first place. Unfortunately though the Catholic Church were screaming and roaring fire and brimstone sermons at anyone who disagreed with their philosophy when it came to any matter for many years.

Unfortunately it was those within priviliged positions within the church that have failed people the most, those like Cardinal Desmond O' Connell for a start, who up until a few years ago was trying every legal trick in the book to keep these files disclosed. Now this is a man who is highly versed in church law and in theology, yet somehow he figures that it is better to continue covering these things up than doing what any 7 year old making their first communion would be able to do, which is be guided by the truth... What we are seeing here is widespread rotten CORRUPTION and underhand manipulation by those at the very highest levels within the Catholic Church.

All those senior religious in the Sisters of Mercy, how come it never occured to them to do the CHRISTIAN thing that ANY 7 YEAR OLD MAKING THEIR COMMUNION COULD TELL YOU TO DO, and show compassion, understanding, and assistance to those who needed it???

It wouldn't be half as bad if the same people who have been responsible for this terrible scandal, were not going around spending every f*cking waking moment of their lives talking about "Christian values", the "Truth", "Compassion", "What would Jesus want to you do?", etc...

I understand you would not want me to impose my religion on yourself or anybody for that matter and I definitely do want to that either,but I think you quoted me out of context or you did not read my post in full.

I totally agree with you that possibly there would be some of those people who might have hypocritically said things and practised the opposite...In my belief they would be held accountable at the appropriate time ( I am a firm believer in whatever you sow ,so shall you would reap).

What I am trying let people acknowledge is that we have huge challenges as a society when it comes to our moral scope.I totally concur that the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for on this issue but I think this is more of a Social and cultural practise and therefore would be politically and religiously inevitable(as they are by-products of the afore-mentioned ).

You responded with so much Intelligence and likewise a lot of posters on this site,I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.I know it is a difficult topic but it is the truth.A boy that would be a priest tomorrow would have to be born into a family likewise a girl that would be a nun...their experiences would to a
large extent determine how they would behave irrespective of their religious orientation.

Liber8or

I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.

Hold on a second. The Catholic Church in Ireland were given the responsibility to educate children in this country and they abused that. They maliciously covered up and hid the facts to avoid this crime from coming out.

They regimentally and methodically avoided taking the blame and preventing the truth. And what happens now? Nothing. Those sick "****ers" and I have no problem using that word, as thats what they are, will never be accountable.

However, these "normal people" you refer to, ARE and WILL be accountable. We are always being updated via newspapers of people being locked away for abuse, be it sexual or physical. So, do not try and claim, what "normal people" do is worse, when infact, it really isn't since they will be punished, where as the Catholic Church will not.

As I said already, irradicate all presence of any remaining Christian Brothers or Sister of Mercy schools in this country. Use the money earned to set up a fund for councilling and support for these victims. It is the minimum the government should take to sending a message to the Catholic Church and assisting the victims.

Darragh29

KINGVictor wrote: »

I understand you would not want me to impose my religion on yourself or anybody for that matter and I definitely do want to that either,but I think you quoted me out of context or you did not read my post in full.

I totally agree with you that possibly there would be some of those people who might have hypocritically said things and practised the opposite...In my belief they would be held accountable at the appropriate time ( I am a firm believer in whatever you sow ,so shall you would reap).

What I am trying let people acknowledge is that we have huge challenges as a society when it comes to our moral scope.I totally concur that the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for on this issue but I think this is more of a Social and cultural practise and therefore would be politically and religiously inevitable(as they are by-products of the afore-mentioned ).

You responded with so much Intelligence and likewise a lot of posters on this site,I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.I know it is a difficult topic but it is the truth.A boy that would be a priest tomorrow would have to be born into a family likewise a girl that would be a nun...their experiences would to a
large extent determine how they would behave irrespective of their religious orientation.

I don't agree with a word of this. The people responsible for this abuse were not "normal people of the society" as you have described them. They were clearly part of a monsterous assembly of people who enjoyed seeing vunerable children suffering whatever hardship that could possibly be inflicted upon them. They were also looked upon as privileged members of society, and given respect over and above that which ordinary member sof society enjoyed.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that each person who could be identified as having been a part of this sickening catalog of abuse, operated entirely independently of every other person who had a hand act or part in this. The evidence points to the opposite, it looks to me like The Sisters of Mercy and the Christian Brothers were like ritual cults.

KINGVictor

Liber8or wrote: »

Hold on a second. The Catholic Church in Ireland were given the responsibility to educate children in this country and they abused that. They maliciously covered up and hid the facts to avoid this crime from coming out.

They regimentally and methodically avoided taking the blame and preventing the truth. And what happens now? Nothing. Those sick "****ers" and I have no problem using that word, as thats what they are, will never be accountable.

However, these "normal people" you refer to, ARE and WILL be accountable. We are always being updated via newspapers of people being locked away for abuse, be it sexual or physical. So, do not try and claim, what "normal people" do is worse, when infact, it really isn't since they will be punished, where as the Catholic Church will not.

As I said already, irradicate all presence of any remaining Christian Brothers or Sister of Mercy schools in this country. Use the money earned to set up a fund for councilling and support for these victims. It is the minimum the government should take to sending a message to the Catholic Church and assisting the victims.

Most of the abusive Schools were utilised as corrective facilities...more like Juvenile correctional institutions as we call them today,YES they were supposed to be reformatory and not act as citadels of abuse..We all agree on that..no doubt..but all reponces have failed to address the underlying fact that In Ireland Boys and Girls have over the years been consistently abused by their own family(especially sexually)...lets start the discussion from there.Bad news makes headlines without addressing the fundamental truth.Fathers and Mothers sexually abuse their children in Europe(Ireland Inclusive) .

My point is that lets start this as a big debate ,and it is far wider than the Catholic church, a lot of these abusers have never been to a church ,so what is thier excuse.

Hydroquinone

Andrew H wrote: »

Id also like to know why/if these organisations (Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy etc.) are still operating in Ireland. If so they should be forced to leave our Country and forfeit any lands, buildings, bank accounts that they hold!

So you want to ship all the abusers and colluders off to another country and let them deal with it. Nice.
What's in it for the people of the foreign country? Why do you think they'd want to have a ganzy load of Irish abusers and colluders in their country?

getz

one report--the christain brothers used to take me into a room and take it in turns[gang bang] me -then beat me and say it was my fault-the leader of the catholic church in england said ,we must find those who have abused children and bring them to task , the catholic church in ireland said f/all

Dr Galen

someone else has already pointed it out, but the problem with this whole debacle is that the burden of proof is too great. This is not me being an abuse denier. The fact is that in order to have a case taken, and won, with the defendant ending up in jail, you need to have proof. Proof is more than someone's word, there needs to be evidence and unfortunatley, anything even approaching evidence seems to have vanished over the years.

Like many other people, I'd like nothing more than to see justice (not revenge) for the abused, but it appears that the criminal courts pathway just isn't open. Thats one of the hardest things for me personally to get straight in my head.

As for the whole God in society debate, well, this report deals specifically with the issue of abuse and the religious orders. Discussion about abuse in wider society is irrelevant imho, the reports states that such abuse was endemic in the the religious orders over the course of the last 70 odd years. Thats completely damning stuff and how the church can hold it's head up, I don't know. It's also a sad day for all those in the religious orders who DIDN'T abuse anyone, and who were dedicated to making things better for many people in society.

dresden8

The attitude of the church that they can do what they want and are not answerable to anybody is nothing new.

The only difference is that Henry II knew how to sort out these pr1cks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Becket

Drummerboy2

In my opinion any property belonging to these orders should be confiscated and they should be deep proscribed organisations. They should be disbanded now.

getz

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

someone else has already pointed it out, but the problem with this whole debacle is that the burden of proof is too great. This is not me being an abuse denier. The fact is that in order to have a case taken, and won, with the defendant ending up in jail, you need to have proof. Proof is more than someone's word, there needs to be evidence and unfortunatley, anything even approaching evidence seems to have vanished over the years.

Like many other people, I'd like nothing more than to see justice (not revenge) for the abused, but it appears that the criminal courts pathway just isn't open. Thats one of the hardest things for me personally to get straight in my head.

As for the whole God in society debate, well, this report deals specifically with the issue of abuse and the religious orders. Discussion about abuse in wider society is irrelevant imho, the reports states that such abuse was endemic in the the religious orders over the course of the last 70 odd years. Thats completely damning stuff and how the church can hold it's head up, I don't know. It's also a sad day for all those in the religious orders who DIDN'T abuse anyone, and who were dedicated to making things better for many people in society.

i agree it may be hard to find proof, but in most cases the abuser has done this more than once-that is proof enough -most damming to me is the white washing of this report ,and the goverment help to cover up the churches crime ,of moving these people on to other countrys ,to be able to continue abusing-there has been a call from the catholic bishop of england,to go after those people ,no matter how far back in time ,let hope he church in ireland admits it

Dr Galen

getz wrote: »

i agree it may be hard to find proof, but in most cases the abuser has done this more than once-that is proof enough -

while I'm not a lawyer, I'd say that isn't enough. The jury of public opinion has very different rules to the Court of Law, and without some form of real proof then I'd say these people are not going to see the inside of the 4 Courts

The_Minister

Jesus1222 wrote: »

Agreed. It was capped at 128 million after a "deal" struck by Mary Harney.

I think you're wrong there.

Wasn't it Michael Woods who struck the deal?

I know Harney isn't popular these days, but come on - who's more likely?
A rumoured member of opus dei, or the woman who once effectively called for prostitution to be legalised?

EDIT: Yup, it was Michael Woods, just checked wikipedia. (Ah Wikipedia, is there anything you don't know?)

holly1

getz wrote: »

one report--the christain brothers used to take me into a room and take it in turns[gang bang] me -then beat me and say it was my fault-the leader of the catholic church in england said ,we must find those who have abused children and bring them to task , the catholic church in ireland said f/all

The same catholic leader commended the abusers for being brave and coming forward,what a load of cr*p.Another kick in the face for those abused:mad:.

mike65

And just to note that the essential mindset has not changed a jot - the incoming Catholic Archbishop for England and Wales Vincent Nichols has talked of the bravery of those priests who have admitted abuse. Talk about missing the point.

“Secondly, I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past, which instinctively and quite naturally they’d rather not look at.

“That takes courage, and also we shouldn’t forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did.”

I'd be much more angry with the state than the Catholic Church tbh, pervert priests come with the terratory and the dept of education knew perfectly well what was happening but refused to deal with individual cases for decades.

I wonder what the scope for prosecution of public servants is? The paper trail will contain names after all.

Boggles

No Television License = Jail and large fine.

Rape and Murder Children = Pay a fine (Maybe).

:eek:

Liber8or

Politics really has gone a funny way lately.

In Britain, claim expenses, paid by the state, for a Jacuzzi or improvements to your apartment = Resign with a state pension and benefits.

Again in Britain, claim social welfare while working = fine and perhaps imprisonment.

In Ireland, take money from the government as your institution is responsible for the welfare and education of children, abuse those children for years, deny it, and ultimately face no accountability. = Win win for the Catholic Church, loss for Irish Society and the victims of clerical abuse.

The German government are still pursuing Nazi Officers and Soldiers from World War II to bring to justice, even from remote parts of the World. And these officers or soldiers may simply been guards at the gate to the camps and yet they will face accountability. They didn't inject the gas into the chamber, may not have killed a single Jew but they are still being persecuted for belonging to a regime that did.
I see a very similar parallel with the Catholic Church, but the difference is, it would be easier for us to find the abusers and we would bring them to justice, but we don't. Why?

The_Minister

holly1 wrote: »

The same catholic leader commended the abusers for being brave and coming forward,what a load of cr*p.Another kick in the face for those abused:mad:.

It's a Catholic thing.
Owning up to your sins.
Not forcing the abused to fight for justice in the courts by denying everything.
Seeking repentance.
etc.

Liber8or wrote: »

I see a very similar parallel with the Catholic Church, but the difference is, it would be easier for us to find the abusers and we would bring them to justice, but we don't. Why?

This has been answered - we can't prove the vast majority (read: nearly any) of the abuse cases actually happened.

Boggles

The_Minister wrote: »

This has been answered - we can't prove the vast majority (read: nearly any) of the abuse cases actually happened.

100's of eye witness accounts?

Liber8or

The_Minister wrote: »

It's a Catholic thing.
Owning up to your sins.
Not forcing the abused to fight for justice in the courts by denying everything.
Seeking repentance.
etc.

This has been answered - we can't prove the vast majority (read: nearly any) of the abuse cases actually happened.

There are letters and reports within the Catholic Church sent by members of the public raising concerns about what they have seen and heard over the years. There are also letters between high ranking officials of the Catholic Church attempting to cover up such abuse.

Since when did witness accounts mean nothing? We need to set up interrogations of the Priests involved, ask them questions, inquire as to the accusations made against them. They will eventually admit the truth, because if they truly believe in their faith, they won't lie. Instead, they would admit their sins and ask God for forgiveness, but will be held accountable on this Earth.

No, I refuse to accept get-out clauses, because I have a sneaking suspicion that the real mess has yet to be discovered and this report is simply a pay-off of acknowledgement in the hope that more will not be revealed through further investigation. Either that, or they are too lazy and if they want to learn a lesson from the abuse, being lazy and not paying attention to what was going on, caused all this abuse. So learn from your mistakes, and get off your arse and track these men and women down.

If the Germans can track down workers/soldiers from the Concentration Camps nearly 70 years ago and bring them to justice, then this government can track down the Priests involved in the schools where abuse took place. SIMPLE AS THAT.

The_Minister

Boggles wrote: »

100's of eye witness accounts?

For the majority of sexual abuse there were no witnesses, or if there were then they were also abused, and probably obtained money for their testimony when the matter was being investigated.
Most of these crimes happened over 30 years ago, so memories are hazy, dates get mixed up etc. Any half-assed solicitor could rip that evidence to shreds.

Does anyone know if the Statute of Limitations applies to these crimes?
That might be another reason.