Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

futurehope

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Completely racist claptrap. This is the kind of logic that inspired the Shankill butchers to go out and murder Irish Catholics. Do you want blood on you hands?

As for the rest. Kincora Home anyone?

Racist, blah, blah, blah...

Shankill Butchers, blah, blah, blah...

Murder of Irish Catholics, blah, blah, blah...

Blood on Prod Hands, etc, etc, etc

What about Kincora, ad infinitum...


Point the finger anywhere, but where it belongs - THE GUILTY MEN OF ROME.

Belfast

Nodin wrote: »

Well for starters, schools need to be made secular, regardless of this.

As regards assistance, the Churches liability has been capped. Hopefully there might be enough in this report to have that revisited.

How would making the schools secular help?

To the best of my knowledge child abuse was just as common in secular insinuations as religious ones.

The problem is not whether the religious or secular people run it.

The problem is no one believed the children or took any action to stop it.

Mr.Micro

futurehope wrote: »

Racist, blah, blah, blah...

Shankill Butchers, blah, blah, blah...

Murder of Irish Catholics, blah, blah, blah...

Blood on Prod Hands, etc, etc, etc

What about Kincora, ad infinitum...


Point the finger anywhere, but where it belongs - THE GUILTY MEN OF ROME.

Too right. Denial that's all the church ever does. Face up to its crimes here in Ireland and all over the world.

futurehope

Let us prey.....

Mr.Micro

futurehope wrote: »

Let us prey.....

very witty. Spot on.

rant_and_rave

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Personally i think the government would be within it's rights to say "**** ya, you openly took on the role of Guardian of the faith, which then became a "Special Position" in the constitution. This constitutional right was abused.

Pay your own ****ing compensation.

It's not just Ireland and it's not just the RC Church either http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7982000/7982021.stm

The RCC was working for the Government so the Government is responsible and the Government pays the victims. The Government can and should go after the RCC just like they would with any other organization that screws up a contract.

The payments from the redress board are quite generous. I know two women now living in England who were compensated. They were the children of unwed mothers who stayed for periods of time in a West of Ireland orphanage. 100,000 Euro each for emotional abuse. One of the Women has two children at university in England. The Irish Government is paying their fees.

Belfast

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Personally i think the government would be within it's rights to say "**** ya, you openly took on the role of Guardian of the faith, which then became a "Special Position" in the constitution. This constitutional right was abused.

Pay your own ****ing compensation.

It's not just Ireland and it's not just the RC Church either http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7982000/7982021.stm

The "Special Position" of the catholic church in the constitution did not give the church any rights in the constitution.

The "Special Position" was a historic reference to the role of the church in the past, before independence.

The state used the church in the past to dump their problems on and do it on the cheap.

The cap church liability was one of Bertie's special deals that we are stuck with now that he is gone.

Belfast

GuanYin wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why they are not prosecuting these individuals?

To put things in context, how can these actions be deemed any lesser than the cults and dangerous organizations out there that don't get recognition in Ireland (eg. Scientology).

people have gone to jail for abuse.

alot of the people involved are dead now.

rant_and_rave

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Too right. Denial that's all the church ever does. Face up to its crimes here in Ireland and all over the world.

Read the fuc*king post mate. Where have I said the RCC is innocent?

Let me make it simple for you. A black man goes in and robs a bank. The following day a white man goes in and robs the same bank. They both get arrested. The black man goes to jail. The white man gets off. The difference between you and me is that I think both men should go to jail. You think the white man should go free.

Belfast

GuanYin wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why they are not prosecuting these individuals?

To put things in context, how can these actions be deemed any lesser than the cults and dangerous organizations out there that don't get recognition in Ireland (eg. Scientology).

I do not undersand what you mean by "organizations out there that don't get recognition in Ireland (eg. Scientology)."

rant_and_rave

Belfast wrote: »

people have gone to jail for abuse.

alot of the people involved are dead now.

Two reasons. Victims of abuse can be further traumatised by reliving abusive memories so they don't prosecute. Child abuse is difficult to prove. How many children sue their parents?

Mr.Micro

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Read the fuc*king post mate. Where have I said the RCC is innocent?

Let me make it simple for you. A black man goes in and robs a bank. The following day a white man goes in and robs the same bank. They both get arrested. The black man goes to jail. The white man gets off. The difference between you and me is that I think both men should go to jail. You think the white man should go free.

Where did I mention you? I was posting about the RCC as an entity or are you its spokes person, you have the language anyway:rolleyes: As for you simple ridiculous analogy. Its an attempt at a joke?

rant_and_rave

Liber8or wrote: »

Is it the government's responsibility to no longer allow Catholic Institutions to impose themselves upon State affairs such as education? Do we need more regulatory bodies to check up on the remaining institutions still in place? And, how should these victims receive assistance? State funds or Catholic Church funds?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0520/abuse.html

Parents who want to send their children to Faith schools should be allowed to do so. It's their democratic right. They pay tax so the Government should pay. Most social democratic countries have Faith and Secular schools paid for and/or subsidised by the Government. The Anglican and Catholic school networks in England and Australia are growing. Parents are voting with their feet and if you have a look at the video in this link you will see why.

http://www.hey-babe.co.uk/video.html

A Primal Nut

KINGVictor wrote: »

I understand you would not want me to impose my religion on yourself or anybody for that matter and I definitely do want to that either,but I think you quoted me out of context or you did not read my post in full.

I totally agree with you that possibly there would be some of those people who might have hypocritically said things and practised the opposite...In my belief they would be held accountable at the appropriate time ( I am a firm believer in whatever you sow ,so shall you would reap).

What I am trying let people acknowledge is that we have huge challenges as a society when it comes to our moral scope.I totally concur that the Catholic Church has a lot to answer for on this issue but I think this is more of a Social and cultural practise and therefore would be politically and religiously inevitable(as they are by-products of the afore-mentioned ).

You responded with so much Intelligence and likewise a lot of posters on this site,I would be very grateful if people could address the fact that physical,emotional and primarily Sexual abuse has been mostly perpetrated by "normal people" of the society.I know it is a difficult topic but it is the truth.A boy that would be a priest tomorrow would have to be born into a family likewise a girl that would be a nun...their experiences would to a
large extent determine how they would behave irrespective of their religious orientation.

These places were being run by the clergy though and not one of them reported anything. Not one. Nobody was prosecuted back then or fired from their job permanently. Nobody did anything to try to prevent it. No priests, bishops did anything to try to prevent this even though they knew. You would think one or two priests working in these institutions would have done something but no. The Catholic Church, Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy, etc. should all just die now and be done with it. Getting access to these children was considered one of the accepted benefits of being in this instition and nobody in the church gave a damn. The fact that some of them did nice things for the kids is irrelevant....they failed to act to prevent others.

rant_and_rave

futurehope wrote: »

Let us prey.....

Student of Goebbels I see.

Mr.Micro

A Primal Nut wrote: »

These places were being run by the clergy though and not one of them reported anything. Not one. Nobody was prosecuted back then or fired from their job permanently. Nobody did anything to try to prevent it. No priests, bishops did anything to try to prevent this even though they knew. You would think one or two priests working in these institutions would have done something but no. The Catholic Church, Christian Brothers, Sisters of Mercy, etc. should all just die now and be done with it. Getting access to these children was considered one of the accepted benefits of being in this instition and nobody in the church gave a damn. The fact that some of them did nice things for the kids is irrelevant....they failed to act to prevent others.

Not a conscience between them, but no doubt all first to the altar on Sundays.

Belfast

Is anybody saying the abuse would not have happen if secular people public or private ran the institutions.

Any institution where people are given power without supervision for outside it will be abused.

Classic example is the

Stanford prison experiment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

The real question is how many other institutions of the state where people had a lot of power over others, have yet to be exposed for abusing the power given to them.

jmayo

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Read the fuc*king post mate. Where have I said the RCC is innocent?

Let me make it simple for you. A black man goes in and robs a bank. The following day a white man goes in and robs the same bank. They both get arrested. The black man goes to jail. The white man gets off. The difference between you and me is that I think both men should go to jail. You think the white man should go free.

BTW the church are not paying their fair share of compensation, if you want to use the argument that both church and state are equally at fault.
Oh wait are you absolving the church of some of it's responsiblity since they were doing the state a favour, taking in all these unwanted kids.

I find it very odd that all your posts are in this and another thread related to the church and state schools ?

I think you are engaging in that favourite of the Irish system, pass the buck.
Nobody is ever responsible in good ould Ireland.

Both state and church are guilty.
The state is guilty of turning a blind eye and not protecting it's vunreable and the church is guilty of abusing (in more ways than one) the faith and innocence of children put into their care.
What makes it more reprehensible is that they were our supposed moral guardians.
Instead they knowingly moved on paedophiles who preyed on the young and the vunreable in our society.
Then they covered it up and put up the shutters.

Also find it a bit disengenous when posters drop in statistics such as the now oft quoted 5% to somehow try and lessen the supposed numbers of possible victims.

rant_and_rave

A Primal Nut wrote: »

These places were being run by the clergy though and not one of them reported anything. Not one. Nobody was prosecuted back then or fired from their job permanently. Nobody did anything to try to prevent it. No priests, bishops did anything to try to prevent this even though they knew. You would think one or two priests working in these institutions would have done something but no.

This is so true. The only plausible explanation is that there were a large number of gay men in the Clergy and that many who later went on to senior positions had homosexual affairs at Maynooth leaving themselves open to blackmail by paedophile priests who threatened to expose them. Fifty percent of Anglican vicars are gay so there is probably a similar percentage in the RCC. We know that many hetro Priests have affairs. Ditto for gay priests.

Mr.Micro

rant_and_rave wrote: »

This is so true. The only plausible explanation is that there were a large number of gay men in the Clergy and that many who later went on to senior positions had homosexual affairs at Maynooth leaving themselves open to blackmail by paedophile priests who threatened to expose them. Fifty percent of Anglican vicars are gay so there is probably a similar percentage in the RCC. We know that many hetro Priests have affairs. Ditto for gay priests.

What a load of absolute rubbish. What about the priests,nuns and brothers who did not abuse but witnessed? What stopped them or the bishops reporting the crimes? The whole disgusting saga lies with the church and the state and all the poor catholics who maybe find their whole lives in the faith was a lie, and rather than deal with it many will continue to pretend it did not happen, it was only a small number etc, anything but the truth.

rant_and_rave

jmayo wrote: »

BTW the church are not paying their fair share of compensation, if you want to use the argument that both church and state are equally at fault.
Oh wait are you absolving the church of some of it's responsiblity since they were doing the state a favour, taking in all these unwanted kids.

I find it very odd that all your posts are in this and another thread related to the church and state schools ?

I think you are engaging in that favourite of the Irish system, pass the buck.
Nobody is ever responsible in good ould Ireland.

Both state and church are guilty.
The state is guilty of turning a blind eye and not protecting it's vunreable and the church is guilty of abusing (in more ways than one) the faith and innocence of children put into their care.
What makes it more reprehensible is that they were our supposed moral guardians.
Instead they knowingly moved on paedophiles who preyed on the young and the vunreable in our society.
Then they covered it up and put up the shutters.

Also find it a bit disengenous when posters drop in statistics such as the now oft quoted 5% to somehow try and lessen the supposed numbers of possible victims.

If I trip over an incorrectly laid paving stone and break my leg I sue the Council not the company that laid the paving. Like it or not the Irish voters elected successive governments who contracted out juvenile care to the RCC because in my view they saw it as a cheap solution. Big fu*king mistake. Now the Irish voters do not want to take responsibility for that. No, they want another cheap solution. Get the RCC to pay ALL of the compensation. What kind of message does that send to abuse victims? The Irish Public still don't care.

I think the Redress Board is a great idea but only for 5% of the Child abuse victims. What about the other 95%? Tough. The Irish Public don't care.

The buck stops with the Irish Government. No more buck passing.

rant_and_rave

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What a load of absolute rubbish.

I think you will find the blackmail theory stands up.

Liber8or

Your arguments seem to support the Catholic Church, Rant and Rave. You seem to think that their abuses was by sheer chance, because the government allowed them to run these institutions. Just because you have been given authority to run these schools, does not mean you can rape and beat those in it.

Yes, the government is to blame. Yes, when details started to emerge something should have been done, but back then the Catholic Church ran this ****ing country and still have some hold over it to this day.

Back then, Priests were the authoritarian power in the community, not the Gardai. If the Catholic Church felt a particular political party was not adhering to the same policies as their religion, they have the tools to topple a government implanted in society. Only takes a couple of sermons by the Priests around the country to tell people not to vote for Party X or Party Y etc.

Even to this day, Catholicism is rampant around our society, infecting it with its control over what can be done and what can not.

So, yes the government do share the blame, but considering the circumstances there was not much they could do, because if one party spoke out about it, they would not get into power to do anything.

Now back to my initial point. The sole blame falls on the individuals in these institutions. The Priests/Nuns/Administrators who knew what was going on and took part and said nothing. Furthemore, the clerical hierarchy who received the complaints and were aware of what happened take more blame, as they methodically attempted to cover it up. This vile, corrupt and sedistic organisation KNEW what was going on and deliberately continued doing it.

And now, much like the Nazi's from the Concentration Camps, they should be hunted down like the dogs they are and made to pay for their crimes. It can not be done, some say? Well, any names of perpetrators given by witnesses and victims should be checked up on. THEN a massive Garda operation should be conducted where they take all these names and begin interviewing them. If they want to lie, then lie. Eventually they will be caught out. Then brought to court and ****ed into a Jail, much like the place they used to run, and let them become the victims.

All Christian Brothers and Sister of Mercy buildings and lands should be taken back by the government to raise funds for support services for these victims and secularisation of education.

I am glad to see that the Tanaiste has said that the cap on redress can be opened up again. I hope this is the beginning of sucking the life out of Catholic funds and power in this country. Set an example to the World, that deceptive and manipulative organisations, like the Nazis, will be hunted down and punished for their crimes against humanity.

Mr.Micro

rant_and_rave wrote: »

I think you will find the blackmail theory stands up.

Where is your source or proof? Or is it your opinion?

A Primal Nut

rant_and_rave wrote: »

This is so true. The only plausible explanation is that there were a large number of gay men in the Clergy and that many who later went on to senior positions had homosexual affairs at Maynooth leaving themselves open to blackmail by paedophile priests who threatened to expose them. Fifty percent of Anglican vicars are gay so there is probably a similar percentage in the RCC. We know that many hetro Priests have affairs. Ditto for gay priests.

So the ones who abused kids were paedophiles.
The ones who didn't were gay and open to blackmail.
Surely there was one or two straight lads who didn't abuse kids?

Or was having a minority sexual orientation a requirement to get into Maynooth?

Or maybe one or two gay priests would have decided that protecting kids was more important than their career. Or maybe, just maybe, the church shouldn't have attached a greater stigma to two priests having consensual sex than a priest raping a child. In which the case the blackmailing wouldn't have been a problem.

Dr Galen

rant_and_rave wrote: »

I think you will find the blackmail theory stands up.

how do you work that one out then?

Mr.Micro

Liber8or wrote: »

Y

I am glad to see that the Tanaiste has said that the cap on redress can be opened up again. I hope this is the beginning of sucking the life out of Catholic funds and power in this country. Set an example to the World, that deceptive and manipulative organisations, like the Nazis, will be hunted down and punished for their crimes against humanity.

The church should be stripped of all its assets and not allowed near any school, children or any vulnerable people in our society. The tax man should should look more closely at the donations given to the church. All those dead or alive involved in the abuse of children in the whole abuse saga should named as there was enough evidence to produce the report then there is enough names. It will not change the past but it might give some sort of closure to the victims.

xxmarymoxx

These sick perverts christian brothers and nuns should be named and shamed i dont care if they are so old der half dead already.I was watching a woman on nightly news with vincent brown last and the things she went through was beyond belief.Its not just the church that needs to be made accountable the doctors knew this was happening too and the school inspectors.A judge sent this woman to one of these school when she was 3 because she was found wandering the streets.And most kids were told that there parents were dead.Every church in Ireland should be burnt to the ground.

netron

Liber8or wrote: »

Your arguments seem to support the Catholic Church, Rant and Rave. You seem to think that their abuses was by sheer chance, because the government allowed them to run these institutions. Just because you have been given authority to run these schools, does not mean you can rape and beat those in it.

Yes, the government is to blame. Yes, when details started to emerge something should have been done, but back then the Catholic Church ran this ****ing country and still have some hold over it to this day.

Back then, Priests were the authoritarian power in the community, not the Gardai. If the Catholic Church felt a particular political party was not adhering to the same policies as their religion, they have the tools to topple a government implanted in society. Only takes a couple of sermons by the Priests around the country to tell people not to vote for Party X or Party Y etc.

Even to this day, Catholicism is rampant around our society, infecting it with its control over what can be done and what can not.

So, yes the government do share the blame, but considering the circumstances there was not much they could do, because if one party spoke out about it, they would not get into power to do anything.

Now back to my initial point. The sole blame falls on the individuals in these institutions. The Priests/Nuns/Administrators who knew what was going on and took part and said nothing. Furthemore, the clerical hierarchy who received the complaints and were aware of what happened take more blame, as they methodically attempted to cover it up. This vile, corrupt and sedistic organisation KNEW what was going on and deliberately continued doing it.

And now, much like the Nazi's from the Concentration Camps, they should be hunted down like the dogs they are and made to pay for their crimes. It can not be done, some say? Well, any names of perpetrators given by witnesses and victims should be checked up on. THEN a massive Garda operation should be conducted where they take all these names and begin interviewing them. If they want to lie, then lie. Eventually they will be caught out. Then brought to court and ****ed into a Jail, much like the place they used to run, and let them become the victims.

All Christian Brothers and Sister of Mercy buildings and lands should be taken back by the government to raise funds for support services for these victims and secularisation of education.

I am glad to see that the Tanaiste has said that the cap on redress can be opened up again. I hope this is the beginning of sucking the life out of Catholic funds and power in this country. Set an example to the World, that deceptive and manipulative organisations, like the Nazis, will be hunted down and punished for their crimes against humanity.

well said. my sentiments entirely.

GuanYin

Just a quick reminder.

While I appreciate this is an emotive subject that may have direct impact on some of your lives, we still operate with strict rules in this forum.

Anyone advocating violence, harm or criminality, or celebrating harm to others will be banned from the forum.