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Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results
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i posted this earlier in the thread , but i deserves a repost for folks who missed it. out of all of the material i've read so far, this short extract speaks VOLUMES ...
Artane:
from section 7.232:
"One Brother related an incident where his fellow Brothers had burst into applause when he entered a room where they were, as it had been learned that he had punished one of his pupils by punching him in the face – previously he had not dealt out such harsh punishment."
http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/01-07.php
Matt Cooper had a Christian Brother on his show this afternoon - and boy did he sound like a sanctimonious smug bastard... and no wonder - we'll pick up the tab for HIS ORGANISATIONS crimes.0 -
I am sorry to say, but if this report results in no accountability, then this will be greatest disaster of this country this year, if not in decades.
Ireland has a chance to show the World, as it is watching, that corruption and an organisation as big as the Catholic Church can and will be brought to justice. If we fail at that, then we are vindicating and accepting that an institute can come here and literally rape our society, without any ramifications.
The Christian Brother still maintain control over 100 schools in this country. A Trustfund has been setup to retain this control, we all know this money should be given to the victims.0 -
"If we fail at that, then we are vindicating and accepting that an institute can c
come here and literally rape our society"
yer man on Matt Cooper made exactly that point this afternoon. ( didnt catch his name. was abused... part of victim support/justice group)
said the report was a whitewash - called for a body like the UN to come in and put the people responsible on trial for crimes against humanity.
he was utterly angry. cant blame him.0 -
Your arguments seem to support the Catholic Church, Rant and Rave. You seem to think that their abuses was by sheer chance, because the government allowed them to run these institutions. Just because you have been given authority to run these schools, does not mean you can rape and beat those in it.
Yes, the government is to blame. Yes, when details started to emerge something should have been done, but back then the Catholic Church ran this ****ing country and still have some hold over it to this day.
Back then, Priests were the authoritarian power in the community, not the Gardai. If the Catholic Church felt a particular political party was not adhering to the same policies as their religion, they have the tools to topple a government implanted in society. Only takes a couple of sermons by the Priests around the country to tell people not to vote for Party X or Party Y etc.
Even to this day, Catholicism is rampant around our society, infecting it with its control over what can be done and what can not.
So, yes the government do share the blame, but considering the circumstances there was not much they could do, because if one party spoke out about it, they would not get into power to do anything.
Now back to my initial point. The sole blame falls on the individuals in these institutions. The Priests/Nuns/Administrators who knew what was going on and took part and said nothing. Furthemore, the clerical hierarchy who received the complaints and were aware of what happened take more blame, as they methodically attempted to cover it up. This vile, corrupt and sedistic organisation KNEW what was going on and deliberately continued doing it.
And now, much like the Nazi's from the Concentration Camps, they should be hunted down like the dogs they are and made to pay for their crimes. It can not be done, some say? Well, any names of perpetrators given by witnesses and victims should be checked up on. THEN a massive Garda operation should be conducted where they take all these names and begin interviewing them. If they want to lie, then lie. Eventually they will be caught out. Then brought to court and ****ed into a Jail, much like the place they used to run, and let them become the victims.
All Christian Brothers and Sister of Mercy buildings and lands should be taken back by the government to raise funds for support services for these victims and secularisation of education.
I am glad to see that the Tanaiste has said that the cap on redress can be opened up again. I hope this is the beginning of sucking the life out of Catholic funds and power in this country. Set an example to the World, that deceptive and manipulative organisations, like the Nazis, will be hunted down and punished for their crimes against humanity.
Liber8or. Were you born yesterday? How many openly gay politicians were elected in England in the 1950s. None. How many openly gay politicians have been elected in Northern Ireland. None. Why? Because 1950s England was very conservative and NI is still like 1950s England. Conservative populations elect conservative governments.
Ireland entered a very conservative social period in the late 1900s and stayed there. Both parts of Ireland remained wedded to Victorian moral values for much of the twentieth century. I don't buy the idea that the Irish were "hypnotised" by the RCC. Rural populations are innately conservative and most of Ireland lived in the countryside. Sexual liberalism started to make inroads in only when the urban population exploded in the 1970s. Abortion is illegal in both parts of the island. Unionists like to think they are different but they are not.
The really big problem I have with your post is that you have nothing good to say about the RCC. Your doppleganger lived in Germany in the 1930s and sucked up all the Nazi propaganda that demonised the Jews. All Priests are bad. All Jews are bad. All Priests should be hunted down. All Jews should be hunted down. We think we live in a democratic society but the lynch mob lies just below the surface.
So what are the facts? There were over one million children under 16 living in Eire in each year of the 60 year period the Report examined and in each of those years there was an average of 600 children in care and of these the vast majority were in RCC institutions. Even if we say that all these children were abused that still only 600 out of one million and that is probably another reason why the RCC got away with it. The numbers were small. And since we all know that child abuse does not exist outside RCC institutions we find that Eire had a child abuse rate of 600 abuse cases per million children which makes it by far the safest place in Europe for children and infinitely safer than anywhere in the UK. Not bad for a Catholic country. Racist Northern Loyalists please take note.0 -
I am sorry to say, but if this report results in no accountability, then this will be greatest disaster of this country this year, if not in decades.
Ireland has a chance to show the World, as it is watching, that corruption and an organisation as big as the Catholic Church can and will be brought to justice. If we fail at that, then we are vindicating and accepting that an institute can come here and literally rape our society, without any ramifications.
the report has made the front page of the high traffic, right wing Little Green Footballs blog in America.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33708_Thousands_of_Children_Abused_and_Raped_in_Irish_Catholic_Reform_Schools
this is not to infer that i support everything on LGF - just saying that its right up there with the left wing Daily Kos in terms of being a seriously high traffic political website.
So YES - the world is watching.0 -
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I am sorry to say, but if this report results in no accountability, then this will be greatest disaster of this country this year, if not in decades.
Ireland has a chance to show the World, as it is watching, that corruption and an organisation as big as the Catholic Church can and will be brought to justice. If we fail at that, then we are vindicating and accepting that an institute can come here and literally rape our society, without any ramifications.
The Christian Brother still maintain control over 100 schools in this country. A Trustfund has been setup to retain this control, we all know this money should be given to the victims.
Somehow I don't think the English government is going to close all State Schools where children endured child abuse and give the money to the victims.
All these threads are about giving money to victims of child abuse in RCC institutions. What about the other victims of abuse? They have been airbrushed out of history.0 -
the report has made the front page of the high traffic, right wing Little Green Footballs blog in America.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33708_Thousands_of_Children_Abused_and_Raped_in_Irish_Catholic_Reform_Schools
this is not to infer that i support everything on LGF - just saying that its right up there with the left wing Daily Kos in terms of being a seriously high traffic political website.
So YES - the world is watching.
Never heard of it.
The media works itself into a frenzy about RCC child abuse and ignores the other victims who suffer in silence. Totally cynical.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »Never heard of it.
The media works itself into a frenzy about RCC child abuse and ignores the other victims who suffer in silence. Totally cynical.
just saying that it gets several million hits PER DAY... its a big one in America. and doesnt normally focus on Irish matters.
folks are watching. especially after all the child abuse scandals with the Catholic Church in the states.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »Somehow I don't think the English government is going to close all State Schools where children endured child abuse and give the money to the victims.
hang on a minute... those cases in England are prosecuted and they go to trial. the British police take such matters extremely seriously.
there is certainly no systematic collusion to the level that we have seen in Ireland.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »The numbers were small. And since we all know that child abuse does not exist outside RCC institutions we find that Eire had a child abuse rate of 600 abuse cases per million children which makes it by far the safest place in Europe for children and infinitely safer than anywhere in the UK. Not bad for a Catholic country. Racist Northern Loyalists please take note.
ah yes- the "few bad apples" argument. sorry - that just doesnt wash any more.
i would recommend that you read the report. or at least parts of it...0 -
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The church should be stripped of all its assets and not allowed near any school, children or any vulnerable people in our society. The tax man should should look more closely at the donations given to the church. All those dead or alive involved in the abuse of children in the whole abuse saga should named as there was enough evidence to produce the report then there is enough names. It will not change the past but it might give some sort of closure to the victims.
I think you left somebody out, mainly the Government and electorate who voted for them. This is unbelievable. Total abdication of responsibility. You didn't want to pay then. You don't want to pay now.0 -
just saying that it gets several million hits PER DAY... its a big one in America. and doesnt normally focus on Irish matters.
folks are watching. especially after all the child abuse scandals with the Catholic Church in the states.
Like I said. I have been on the net for 10 years, read three newspapers a day and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »Liber8or. Were you born yesterday? How many openly gay politicians were elected in England in the 1950s. None. How many openly gay politicians have been elected in Northern Ireland. None. Why? Because 1950s England was very conservative and NI is still like 1950s England. Conservative populations elect conservative governments.
Ireland entered a very conservative social period in the late 1900s and stayed there. Both parts of Ireland remained wedded to Victorian moral values for much of the twentieth century. I don't buy the idea that the Irish were "hypnotised" by the RCC. Rural populations are innately conservative and most of Ireland lived in the countryside. Sexual liberalism started to make inroads in only when the urban population exploded in the 1970s. Abortion is illegal in both parts of the island. Unionists like to think they are different but they are not.
The really big problem I have with your post is that you have nothing good to say about the RCC. Your doppleganger lived in Germany in the 1930s and sucked up all the Nazi propaganda that demonised the Jews. All Priests are bad. All Jews are bad. All Priests should be hunted down. All Jews should be hunted down. We think we live in a democratic society but the lynch mob lies just below the surface.
So what are the facts? There were over one million children under 16 living in Eire in each year of the 60 year period the Report examined and in each of those years there was an average of 600 children in care and of these the vast majority were in RCC institutions. Even if we say that all these children were abused that still only 600 out of one million and that is probably another reason why the RCC got away with it. The numbers were small. And since we all know that child abuse does not exist outside RCC institutions we find that Eire had a child abuse rate of 600 abuse cases per million children which makes it by far the safest place in Europe for children and infinitely safer than anywhere in the UK. Not bad for a Catholic country. Racist Northern Loyalists please take note.
Yes, Ireland was a very conservative nation with an extremely poor economy after the Irish Civil War, but how does that vindicate what went on in Catholic insitutions? Just because the nation was poor and couldn't afford to investigate concerns arising from what happened in those schools, doesn't mean it should have, or not be given any notice.
I have serious issues with the RCC as their history destroys any credibility they could ever possibly have in this country. You can't give with one hand and take with the other. If the RCC had commit fraud and stole millions, or avoided paying taxes then that is something people can get past. However, they did much worse. Their institutions, raped, abused, emotionally and physically tortured children. CHILDREN. It does not matter if these childred were homeless, or who's mothers were not married, or commit crimes. Nobody deserves that treatment. And lets imagine, we could forget about what DID happen, we can not forget that the RCC had files hidden away in the Vatican detailing thousands of reports about clerical abuse. That is the real travesty of the situation. They had no ****ing balls to admit what was going on, until the Tribunal had discovered substantial evidence and there was no way of hiding it anymore.
Now, regarding your "facts" which are of a highly subversive stance. 600 children are reported to have been abused in total? So I pose you the question, were YOU born yesterday?
600, perhaps, that the tribunal recorded as having given details. What of the people who commit suicide? What of those who died in their care? Next of all, there are thousands of people who have spent years attempting to forget what happened to them and would rather not talk about it again. They would not have come forward. Besides, it doesn't matter what the exact numbers are, it is the invasive and sick methodology surrounding their actions. Years of trying to cover it up and avoid anything being revealed, even until 2004!!
This institution was given the authority to care and educate children and it abused it, for over 60 years. And right now, it seems they will never be accountable. That is ****ing sick. So do not try and tell me that what other abusers in society are doing is worse, because at the end of the day, most of THEM will be caught and punished, but the RCC dont give a **** about those, only about covering their own asses.0 -
ah yes- the "few bad apples" argument. sorry - that just doesnt wash any more.
i would recommend that you read the report. or at least parts of it...
Bollux. You can't argue with facts. I never said the Catholic Church should get off. I just don't believe they should be singled out to the exclusion of all other perpetrators just so the Irish can assuage their guilt and pretend child abuse no longer exists in Ireland.
I know two people who have received compensation from the Redress Board. I am informed unlike a lot of others it seems.0 -
Hydroquinone wrote: »So you want to ship all the abusers and colluders off to another country and let them deal with it. Nice.
What's in it for the people of the foreign country? Why do you think they'd want to have a ganzy load of Irish abusers and colluders in their country?
Any person living or dead should be named and shamed that had any involvement in this shameful cover up and abuse.
Any person named should be sent to prison!!
These organisations should be disbanded in any Country that they are in. Their goods, lands and money seized and put into trust to help the people and families whose lives have been ruined.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »I think you left somebody out, mainly the Government and electorate who voted for them. This is unbelievable. Total abdication of responsibility. You didn't want to pay then. You don't want to pay now.
a government and an electorate who were utterly dominated into submission by the Catholic Church.
sorry, but that argument doesnt wash either.
thats like saying that the Iranians voted for AhmyDinnerJacket and thus are responsible for Sharia Law....
maybe i can give you an idea of the dominance of the Catholic Church from a personal story - it might help you with getting a handle on it.
This is in the 1970s, so its a bit after the major excesses , but its still a good example.
There's me , home from school, and me Mam making dinner. Dad is at work. We're in the kitchen.
And who walks into the house, unannounced - why the local Catholic priest. No knock , no invite, no "how are ye?" - just walked right in , to start chatting up my mother.
Just ask yourself - what sort of environment gives such people free reign to walk into peoples private homes? And that was treated as normal back then.
(needless to say - my dad was having none of it.. but what he did is not for this board. suffice to say , it never happened again..)
That is the crux of the matter - the Catholic Church had total and utter dominance over us. So much for Irish "independence" - we just swapped one bunch of rulers for an even worse bunch.
And thats the bit that a lot of Irish need to get to terms with. all that irish war of independence stuff - all for nothing. we ended up being virtually a Taliban state for about 60 years...
dont get me wrong - my background is Irish republican, and some of my relatives have been known to have armed salutes over their graves. but theres this RCC thing hanging over us that needs to be confronted head on.
in my view , if we dont collectively face up to it , we will NEVER have a united Ireland.
this report places a shame on all of us - not as big as the Germans post 1945, but its damn close. As the Irish Times have said - it involves mass slavery, torture and abuse. and we , as a nation, tolerated it.
We simply cannot brush this under the carpet.
Sorry , rambling, but reading the report today has brought back a ton of memories about the Christian Brothers and just what a bunch of psychos a lot of them were.0 -
On another note Rant and Rave, it would appear to me that you are a practicing Roman Catholic, apologies if I am wrong, but can I ask how old is your parish priest?
Can you honestly sit and listen to his sermon and not wonder, perhaps he colluded on some level regarding clerical abuse or even worse, took part in some form or another? If you have children or plan to, would you leave your children in the care of the local priest without a doubt in your mind?
And ultimately, do you think Irish society can still trust the RCC after everything that has happened? I would be very certain that people would respond negetively to being asked that question. So what place does the RCC have in this country now?0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »Bollux. You can't argue with facts. I never said the Catholic Church should get off. I just don't believe they should be singled out to the exclusion of all other perpetrators just so the Irish can assuage their guilt and pretend child abuse no longer exists in Ireland.
I know two people who have received compensation from the Redress Board. I am informed unlike a lot of others it seems.
I personally know another who has received compensation.
I dont think you fully understand why the RCC is being singled out - its something to do with utterly dominating Irish society for decades. THATS why.
if you cant see that , then yer deluded.
and anyway - nobody is saying that other abuse should be ignored. nor do i think our guilt will be cleared by prosecuting the Church for allowing such mass abuse to happen. It will take decades to get over it.
Just ask any German. 60/70 years and they still have a guilt complex about what they allowed. We'll be no different.0 -
And who walks into the house, unannounced - why the local Catholic priest. No knock , no invite, no "how are ye?" - just walked right in , to start chatting up my mother.
Indeed. This went on even in the 1990's. I remember the local Priest just popping in to see how things are, despite the fact we never went to Church. These authoritarian figures ruled Irish society for decades, and if you want to refute that Rant and Rave then backup the claim.
On another note, just dawned on me that so many analogies and proverbs in Catholic preachings refer to the "Flock". Indeed, a flock of sheep, followers who didn't question and obeyed whilst following the leader. That is exactly how things were in Irish society. You didn't question the Priest or the Church back then, you simply accepted things as they were told to you. Ignorance is bliss, and that is how the RCC survives, preying on ignorance.0 -
Now, regarding your "facts" which are of a highly subversive stance. 600 children are reported to have been abused in total? So I pose you the question, were YOU born yesterday?
600, perhaps, that the tribunal recorded as having given details. What of the people who commit suicide? What of those who died in their care? Next of all, there are thousands of people who have spent years attempting to forget what happened to them and would rather not talk about it again. They would not have come forward. Besides, it doesn't matter what the exact numbers are, it is the invasive and sick methodology surrounding their actions. Years of trying to cover it up and avoid anything being revealed, even until 2004!!
This institution was given the authority to care and educate children and it abused it, for over 60 years. And right now, it seems they will never be accountable. That is ****ing sick. So do not try and tell me that what other abusers in society are doing is worse, because at the end of the day, most of THEM will be caught and punished, but the RCC dont give a **** about those, only about covering their own asses.
The post actually said 600 abuse cases per year over 60 years i.e. that assumes that EVERYONE in a RCC Institution was abused. That's 35000 in total over 60 years. 600 abuse cases per million is a very low rate of child abuse. I wish we had a zero rate of abuse but that's unlikely to happen.
Members of the RCC who abused or collaborated in the abuse should be prosecuted. No problem.0 -
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i read colm o gorman's book while back,harrowing stuff...0
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If you have children or plan to, would you leave your children in the care of the local priest without a doubt in your mind?
even way back in the 70s , when i was a kid, my mam, aunts all had a turn of phrase about certain priests/brothers
"he's a bit funny"...
and if truth be told, my mum had ZERO trust in them. and that was decades before all this stuff started coming out.
it went to negative trust when i went off on scout camp and Father Fortune was doing the "retreats".
Evil ****er ... i refused to go on them, and just stuck to the camp , chopping wood and doing odd jobs with the scout leaders, while Father Fortune led off all my mates like a Pied Piper to his bollocks Mass and "retreat" - every ****ing day , for two weeks...
after that camp, i turned atheist.0 -
On another note, just dawned on me that so many analogies and proverbs in Catholic preachings refer to the "Flock". Indeed, a flock of sheep, followers who didn't question and obeyed whilst following the leader. That is exactly how things were in Irish society. You didn't question the Priest or the Church back then, you simply accepted things as they were told to you. Ignorance is bliss, and that is how the RCC survives, preying on ignorance.
That's not an argument against the RCC. That's an argument against any organized religion and by organized I mean a set of rules.
And this describes any political party. Vote against the Government, you lose the whip.
"followers who didn't question and obeyed whilst following the leader".0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »Members of the RCC who abused or collaborated in the abuse should be prosecuted. No problem.
thats the problem - the RCC has obstructed , avoided, and refused to collaborate with bringing these scumbags to justice. to such an extent that they even allowed KNOWN paedos to move around and abuse again.
if the Bishops were reporting abusers to the Gardai , we wouldnt be having this argument.
I personally think that the Pope should intervene - if he wants to make the RCC relevant again, he really needs to have a name and shame campaign and utterly purge the RCC and report the abusers to the police. even if they are dead he can still report them so that cases are resolved.
then they can start anew.
that would be some sort of justice. especially for the victims in the report.0 -
On another note, just dawned on me that so many analogies and proverbs in Catholic preachings refer to the "Flock". Indeed, a flock of sheep, followers who didn't question and obeyed whilst following the leader. That is exactly how things were in Irish society. You didn't question the Priest or the Church back then, you simply accepted things as they were told to you. Ignorance is bliss, and that is how the RCC survives, preying on ignorance.
"flock" - they went with the "lamb of god" idea and rolled with it. was a godsend for the political class - a flock of religious sheep - they prospered out of it as the plebs never ever voted socialist/communist unlike other European countries.
no wonder the Irish state colluded - it was in each others interests. its not just the RCC involved - a thorough investigation would find many politicians implicated and if still alive, probably prosecuted and jailed.0 -
Indeed. This went on even in the 1990's. I remember the local Priest just popping in to see how things are, despite the fact we never went to Church. These authoritarian figures ruled Irish society for decades, and if you want to refute that Rant and Rave then backup the claim. .
jeez - 1990s... and i thought my 1970s story was from the old days... didnt know that it happened so recently.
on the report and how its affected me - a bit of background - i'm more of a free market right winger - total opposite to my hardline leftwing father. never truely understood HOW he could have gone so leftwing when he grew up in such a conservative Ireland of the 1950s. i kind of understood it - but i never really empathised with it, as i had no direct experience.
but he grew up in a totally different era to me - and this report has made me understand him a hell of a lot more.
if i grew up in 1950s ireland, i'd probably be a communist/marxist right now too.
i guess thats a bit of silver lining - in a small small way - i wonder how many others are also having such ephinanys?0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »That's not an argument against the RCC. That's an argument against any organized religion and by organized I mean a set of rules.
And this describes any political party. Vote against the Government, you lose the whip.
"followers who didn't question and obeyed whilst following the leader".
i think you're wrong there - Protestants dont have an idea of a "flock" - disagree with the vicar and you're perfectly free to set up your own Protestant church.
Protestants are somewhat anti-clerical and mistrustful of clerics, so the onus is on their clergy to win their trust - and it is a constant battle. the philosophy is utterly different to the RCC.
i should know - i'm married to an Anglican girl.0 -
and the fragmentation of Protestantism is an aspect that prevents utter dominance by one religion - as we experienced in Ireland.
getting married to an Anglican girl really opened my eyes up a fair bit. mother in law is Methodist, grandmother-in-law is Baptist, uncle-in-law is a Quaker. wife is C of E... and it goes on and on... it aint monolithic RCC. in a Protestant environment the clerics simply cannot gain authoritarian control over society - by its very nature Protestantism prevents that.
being an atheist i couldnt care less what religion people follow - but tis interesting actually seeing (and living) something that is utterly different to the RCC Ireland experience i had as a kid.0 -
catholic meself,and in all honestly,i think they should name and shame these people who did these awful things,is sickening that those protected first time around and getting protected again..0
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Just ask any German. 60/70 years and they still have a guilt complex about what they allowed. We'll be no different.
40 million murdered over 10 years V 35000 max child abuse cases over 60 years. Slight difference I think.
Here is the deal. If Ireland is anything like most other western countries then child abuse is much worse now then it was 30,40,50 years ago. This is because higher levels of marital breakdown have led to children living with non biological step patents who, and it's mostly men, are 10 times more likely to abuse children who are not their biological offspring. That is the consensus opinion among secular international child and family experts and not something I dreamt up 10 minutes ago. Internet child pornography and child prostitution are big problems. Is society concerned about this? Not really. It's more important to cut taxes then tackle child abuse. Parties will not get elected on a child abuse ticket. Children die, it's a five day wonder then everything returns to normal.
The fact is Irish Society is more concerned about dealing with past wrongs committed by the RCC than confronting the real epidemic of child abuse happening right here right now. You are ignoring the problem again.
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