Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

netron

yer figures are wrong. high estimate for the holocaust is in the region of 12 million. total for ww2 is between 40 to 60 million.

but i digress - my point is nothing to do with numbers and figures.
i'm not equating what the Germans actually DID versus our situation - i'm talking about the psychological impact on a society that looked the other way and did nothing about it.

its the psychological effect i'm on about.

and its all relative, depending on society and its history. just pointing out that we Irish will go through a collective trauma because of this report that is similar to what the Germans post 1945 went through.

and we thought that we were so superior because of our WW2 "neutrality" and thought we'd never go through that experience, only for history to bite us in the ass with something completely different in 2009.

netron

totally agree with the rest of your point.

but still - we're human beings.. we do have this ability to concentrate on more than one thing at a time.

just because i think the RCC commited crimes against children , doesnt mean that i'm not concerned about stuff like eastern european human trafficking.

the points you raise about modern issues reflect more on the European Union and how it is run. and yes that is a major problem.

i think the commission report is different as it hits each of our hearts a heck of a lot more - as in how our own country was run after we beat the British Empire in a short but nasty independence war.

what the RCC did was a major abuse not only of the kids directly - but an abuse of the trust of the Irish Republic. THATS why folks are getting worked up about it... it affects us on so many levels. like our nationality and our history.

DublinWriter

Even when you remove the sexual abuse aspect, you see that the state effectively sanctioned a regime of enforced child-slave labour through the industrial schools. This, it itself, is a crime heinous.

The now decaying Christian Brothers Retirement Home in Baldoyle always gave me a such a horrible vibe when I used to cycle past it as a kid.

getz

netron wrote: »

a government and an electorate who were utterly dominated into submission by the Catholic Church.

sorry, but that argument doesnt wash either.

thats like saying that the Iranians voted for AhmyDinnerJacket and thus are responsible for Sharia Law....


maybe i can give you an idea of the dominance of the Catholic Church from a personal story - it might help you with getting a handle on it.

This is in the 1970s, so its a bit after the major excesses , but its still a good example.

There's me , home from school, and me Mam making dinner. Dad is at work. We're in the kitchen.

And who walks into the house, unannounced - why the local Catholic priest. No knock , no invite, no "how are ye?" - just walked right in , to start chatting up my mother.

Just ask yourself - what sort of environment gives such people free reign to walk into peoples private homes? And that was treated as normal back then.

(needless to say - my dad was having none of it.. but what he did is not for this board. suffice to say , it never happened again..)

That is the crux of the matter - the Catholic Church had total and utter dominance over us. So much for Irish "independence" - we just swapped one bunch of rulers for an even worse bunch.

And thats the bit that a lot of Irish need to get to terms with. all that irish war of independence stuff - all for nothing. we ended up being virtually a Taliban state for about 60 years...

dont get me wrong - my background is Irish republican, and some of my relatives have been known to have armed salutes over their graves. but theres this RCC thing hanging over us that needs to be confronted head on.

in my view , if we dont collectively face up to it , we will NEVER have a united Ireland.

this report places a shame on all of us - not as big as the Germans post 1945, but its damn close. As the Irish Times have said - it involves mass slavery, torture and abuse. and we , as a nation, tolerated it.

We simply cannot brush this under the carpet.

Sorry , rambling, but reading the report today has brought back a ton of memories about the Christian Brothers and just what a bunch of psychos a lot of them were.

in the uk or ireland any adult who sexualy abuses children will go to prison, but it seems that in ireland priests do not ,they go to the vatican

LordSutch

netron wrote: »

i think the commission report is different as it hits each of our hearts a heck of a lot more - as in how our own country was run after we beat the British Empire in a short but nasty independence war.

Ten out of ten for 'Quaint' language :rolleyes:

It could be argued that the very reason the institutions took hold with such a vice like grip was because we left the UK in the fashion that we did. > In 1900 the streets of Dublin were bedecked with Union Jacks with the visit of Queen Victoria, twenty years later the Republic was heading for 98% RC domination, with the Virgin Mary being held up as the New Queen (1932 Eucharistic Congress) > Roman Catholosisim had totally taken over the Republic in a very domineering & unhealthy way, and the industrial schools thrived in this environment.

HumanAfterAll

Why those people don't go to prission? this stuff is very sad, and make me cry , it's horrible just imagine a little bit how was for the victims day by day.

I've read how those abuses affects the victims the years after, and it's very sad.

So please somebody put those bastards in prission forever

HumanAfterAll

The gobern has paid 1.200€ mill in compensations, and the church only 128€ mill.

In a couple of months will appear Cowen with a new raise in the levy.

Nodin

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Like I said. I have been on the net for 10 years, read three newspapers a day and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT.

....which, caps notwithstanding, matters not a jot to its overall significance one way or another.

rant_and_rave wrote: »

600 abuse cases per million is a very low rate of child abuse. .

No, because those 600 cases should per 'population of Institutions', not the general population.

rant_and_rave wrote: »

The fact is Irish Society is more concerned about dealing with past wrongs committed by the RCC than confronting the real epidemic of child abuse happening right here right now. .

...which is like saying Gardai working on old murder cases don't give a rats ass about who gets murdered now.

It also ignores the fact that the Church viewed itself as a moral authority which presumed to lecture and influence both population and legislature for many decades. Given the ugly scenes underneath its pedestal, its hardly suprising they receive harsh treatment.

LookingFor

Their treatment has been gentle.

They were given a very sweet deal on the compensation front, and care of children in schools remains in their trust.

Bishops, such as the new leader of the church in england and wales are allowed to belittle the deeds done here without action from Rome.

If this was any other non-religious group, any other, they'd have been run out of the country, but our government carefully arranged to minimise the material impact of this on the Church.

It's absolutely shameful. If our government is not going to do what's necessary, then we as people need to..at the ballot box, and at the pews when collection baskets are handed out. I will not give a single solitary cent to this Church.

edit - and they continue to evade their moral (as opposed to legal - thank you government) responsibilities: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0522/abuse.html Taking aside the abuses themselves, the handling of this reveals how morally corrupt these organisations are, and continue to be.

sovtek

Fred83 wrote: »

i often think,the church is to receive any respect,they should turn their abusers over to the police like any person would

And if they covered up a crime they should be prosecuted like any other person.
It beggars that the Catholic church does this across the board and in many nations and yet the Pope isn't frogmarched.
Anyone in another organisation would be.

dreenman

GuanYin wrote: »

Just a quick reminder.

While I appreciate this is an emotive subject that may have direct impact on some of your lives, we still operate with strict rules in this forum.

Anyone advocating violence, harm or criminality, or celebrating harm to others will be banned from the forum.

Quite right.

The one action that will have and affect on the Church is to simply stop giving money to it!

Everybody should stop donating starting at the very next mass!

Nodin

dreenman wrote: »

Quite right.

The one action that will have and affect on the Church is to simply stop giving money to it!

Everybody should stop donating starting at the very next mass!

....and more importantly inform their TD that they wish the Government to seek an increase in the amount paid by the church towards compensation, the last agreement being insufficient.

Jesus1222

dreenman wrote: »

Quite right.

The one action that will have and affect on the Church is to simply stop giving money to it!

Everybody should stop donating starting at the very next mass!

I agree with this completely, I don't condone violence but it's surprising that nobody decided to take their revenge on their abusers. There hasn't been a single case of it that I know of.

Jason Mc

I hate to say it but this report would make you feel embarrassed to say you are Irish

These ppl should be dealt with severely that includes anyone who had direct knowledge that stood by and did nothing about it

jmayo

rant_and_rave wrote: »

If I trip over an incorrectly laid paving stone and break my leg I sue the Council not the company that laid the paving. Like it or not the Irish voters elected successive governments who contracted out juvenile care to the RCC because in my view they saw it as a cheap solution. Big fu*king mistake. Now the Irish voters do not want to take responsibility for that. No, they want another cheap solution. Get the RCC to pay ALL of the compensation. What kind of message does that send to abuse victims? The Irish Public still don't care.

I think the Redress Board is a great idea but only for 5% of the Child abuse victims. What about the other 95%? Tough. The Irish Public don't care.

The buck stops with the Irish Government. No more buck passing.

FFS some analogy.
The big difference that you don't get in your analogy, is that the paving company aren't looking after young children, aren't waiting for them to appear around the corner, then trip them, rape them and hammer the shi** out of them.
Oh and they do this every fu**ing day as long until they reach 16/18 when they leave their care.

The buck does stop with the state buit it damm well also stops with the RCC.
They had huge influence in this country, as could be seen by the film censor, the banning of O'Briens books, the prominence given to that bollo** McQuade, etc.
They had huge power and they abused it, pure and simple.
What makes it worse is that it was children that suffered.

How could anyone, nevermind a person that calls themselves a man of God, look into a childs eyes before they buggered them ?
Just answer that ?

Then when revelations did come out, they moved the perps to do their evil on some other poor inocents, they moved on denying it happened, then finally they brought in the legal suits to protect their assets and used certain ministers to ensure they got a good deal.
Hell some of them are still denying it ala Magee.

You are breaking your boll**** on this thread trying your best to shift blame off the RCC.
Begrudingly you then drop in every so often that guilty relgious shoudl be prosecuted.

rant_and_rave wrote: »

Like I said. I have been on the net for 10 years, read three newspapers a day and I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT.

Just believe it exists, a bit like believing in God.

When does that blasphemy act come in again ?

rant_and_rave wrote: »

...
The fact is Irish Society is more concerned about dealing with past wrongs committed by the RCC than confronting the real epidemic of child abuse happening right here right now. You are ignoring the problem again.
...

So we should ignore our history, make sure nobody is ever responsible.
I guess it is the RCC way to sweep it under the carpet, just believe and do as your f***ing told, never question.

No it is you who are ignoring the problem by seemingly doing your best to move quickly along.

getz wrote: »

in the uk or ireland any adult who sexualy abuses children will go to prison, but it seems that in ireland priests do not ,they go to the vatican

Or else they were just moved to a new parish or school.

Liber8or

jmayo wrote: »

I guess it is the RCC way to sweep it under the carpet, just believe and do as your f***ing told, never question.

As they have done throughout their existence when facing scandals or questions they are unable to answer.

However, this tactic is only used lately, because decades ago they had the power to run the country as they saw fit.

futurehope

rant_and_rave said:

Were you born yesterday? How many openly gay politicians were elected in England in the 1950s. None. How many openly gay politicians have been elected in Northern Ireland. None. Why? Because 1950s England was very conservative and NI is still like 1950s England. Conservative populations elect conservative governments.

What the hell has any of this to do with gay politicians? We're talking here about the systematic, institutionalised abuse of children by The RC church. I very much doubt that the election of openly gay politicians would have stopped it - unless they were prods. :rolleyes:

Ireland entered a very conservative social period in the late 1900s and stayed there. Both parts of Ireland remained wedded to Victorian moral values for much of the twentieth century.

And as a result, The RC church felt free to rape children, as part of that 'Victorian' society?:rolleyes:

I don't buy the idea that the Irish were "hypnotised" by the RCC.

Then you live on a completely different planet from everyone else.

Rural populations are innately conservative and most of Ireland lived in the countryside. Sexual liberalism started to make inroads in only when the urban population exploded in the 1970s.

So 'sexual liberalism' liberated Ireland's children from The RC church - exactly how?

Abortion is illegal in both parts of the island.

And? How is that relevant to this issue?

Unionists like to think they are different but they are not.

Oh, but I'm afraid they are dear boy. You see, whilst the 'nonce nuns' and the 'buggery brothers' were 'filling their boots' in the 'not so free state', Unionists in Ulster (including clergymen) were enjoying normal relationships with their wives and girlfriends. You should ask yourself why this was?

The really big problem I have with your post is that you have nothing good to say about the RCC.

Perhaps he's not here to celebrate The RC church and all it stands for?

Your doppleganger lived in Germany in the 1930s and sucked up all the Nazi propaganda that demonised the Jews. All Priests are bad. All Jews are bad. All Priests should be hunted down. All Jews should be hunted down. We think we live in a democratic society but the lynch mob lies just below the surface.

Ah, The Nazis rearing their ugly heads again. According to your RC president, it's Ulster 'prods' who fit that bill. More diversionary material?

Racist Northern Loyalists please take note.

I'm afraid it's not 'racist northern loyalists' who've been tampering with Irish kids, it's The RC church. Yes, the same institution that some Northern Protestants have been warning about for decades. Ironically, the old jokes about the priest and his housekeeper now seem so benign, almost quaint...

Still, if they'd known, perhaps they would have done something about it...

rant_and_rave

Liber8or wrote: »

On another note Rant and Rave, it would appear to me that you are a practicing Roman Catholic, apologies if I am wrong, but can I ask how old is your parish priest?

Can you honestly sit and listen to his sermon and not wonder, perhaps he colluded on some level regarding clerical abuse or even worse, took part in some form or another? If you have children or plan to, would you leave your children in the care of the local priest without a doubt in your mind?

And ultimately, do you think Irish society can still trust the RCC after everything that has happened? I would be very certain that people would respond negetively to being asked that question. So what place does the RCC have in this country now?

As it happens I am Anglican. HC in fact. And if you are wondering why the Anglicans and other Protestant denominations have not joined in the chorus of condemnation it’s because they themselves have had to deal with their own dirty linen.

In the wake of the child abuse exposed in the Anglican Church, which brought down the holder of Australia's highest office, the Anglican Church in South Australia is now grappling with allegations of abuse extending back 40 years. It's just set up a board of inquiry to deal with allegations that up to 200 boys were sexually abused by an Anglican youth worker in South Australia. South Australian police have also set up their own task force to investigate child abuse within the Anglican Church, with 17 alleged offenders already identified.

In my experience every religious organization that has in some way involved itself in child welfare has had to grapple with child abuse perpetrated by it’s own members. Even includes the Hari Krishnas in the US. In all cases there was secrecy, cover up and reluctance to cooperate with authorities. In very few cases has compensation been paid by the Churches to the victims. Ireland is unusual because the RCC ran practically all orphanages and children’s “homes”. You have nothing to compare them with. Yes there was cruelty. Yes there was a cover up. There is always cruelty. There is always a cover up. Such was the level of abuse in children’s homes in the UK and Australia that Child Services prefer to leave children in potentially abusive and dangerous situations because it is considered less risky than taking them into institutional care. This leads to cases like Baby P in London and 2 year old Talia in Sydney. Talia was found starved to death in her high chair after her mother died of a heroin overdose. No one heard her crying. Both Baby P and Talia were “monitored” by Child Services and known to be at risk.

Would I leave my kids alone with a RC priest. Definitely not. An Anglican vicar? No way. A secondary school teacher? Never. You cannot trust anyone. If your kids are not in the classroom you need to be with them. And Child Services? a couple contacted Child Services and offered to foster teenagers. Child Services sent them a teenage boy. The boy raped the couple’s young baby. It subsequently emerged that the boy was a sex offender with two convictions. Child Services never informed the couple about this. Nice.

Do I trust the RCC? I will send my kids to an Anglican school. If I was RC and I was happy with the local RC school then I would send them there. The Anglican and RC school networks in the UK and Australian are expanding and it’s mainly because the secular state schools have turned into zoos like this http://www.hey-babe.co.uk/video.html.

The RCC will survive but religious belief in Ireland will decline and society will fracture. It will have little to do with child abuse in the Churches and more to do with belief and lifestyles. Gay marriage is a deal breaker. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be a Christian. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be a Muslim. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be an Orthodox Jew. Anglicans will split on this issue. There has been a desperate bid for compromise and unity but it’s failed. Many will go over to Rome. We lost hundreds of clergy when the Church agreed to women’s ordination to the Episcopate. Many more will leave if we accept Gay marriage. Society will split between those who want to promote conservative moral values and the libertines who want a selfish free for all. We have already seen the effect of this in Britain. In the words of William Hague we have a broken society. Sadly Ireland appears to heading the same way.

Red Alert

The problem really was with some of the daft ideas with regards to recruiting people into religious orders. You hear stories of lads of 14 being inducted into the Christian Brothers - that's insane if you ask me. If you think about some other orders like the Jesuits, there's pretty much no sex abuse issues because they required men to be 33 or over to be ordained. A priest I was talking to said that nobody should enter training to be a priest nowadays unless the were at least 25-30 and had 'lived a little' as he put it. Also, I think that the obvious things like allowing priests to marry, and having women able to be priests would remove the whole thing of priests having to behave in a sexually different way to normal people.

I think that the people involved, whoever they were, should be named, shamed and brought to the full legal justice possible. They shouldn't be treated any more leniently or severely than any other person. Certainly also if there was obvious institutional collusion then the wider circle of colluders should have questions to answer and damages to pay.

However, there's a few posters urging a wholesale seizing of properties operated or owned by the Catholic church, and the removal of Catholicism as a 'valid' belief in this country. That is a statement akin to Nazism, where it was essentially illegal to be a Jew - either by birth or belief. I believe in the teachings of the RC church, but it's clear to me that quite a few people in the church have not been practicing what they preach. However, some people forget also that many parish churches and schools have been paid for by the local parishioners - and these buildings and lands have had no real connection to orphanages or reformatories. Why should the people who paid for a local building in which to practice their beliefs be made pay for what was done by others in their name?

Mr.Micro

rant_and_rave wrote: »

The RCC will survive but religious belief in Ireland will decline and society will fracture. It will have little to do with child abuse in the Churches and more to do with belief and lifestyles. Gay marriage is a deal breaker. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be a Christian. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be a Muslim. You cannot support Gay marriage and claim to be an Orthodox Jew. Anglicans will split on this issue. There has been a desperate bid for compromise and unity but it’s failed. Many will go over to Rome. We lost hundreds of clergy when the Church agreed to women’s ordination to the Episcopate. Many more will leave if we accept Gay marriage. Society will split between those who want to promote conservative moral values and the libertines who want a selfish free for all. We have already seen the effect of this in Britain. In the words of William Hague we have a broken society. Sadly Ireland appears to heading the same way.

Many catholics have been living a lie for the last 75 years since 1922 here in Ireland with many priests, brothers, and other clergy having illicit sex and abusing children in their care and those very clergy breaking their vows, and in effect no longer fit to continue in their office, yet they carried on,and were allowed to carry on with baptisms, christenings, marriages etc etc and you think that gay marriage is a deal breaker. What century is this? If people are gay so what and why should they be denied a ceremony or marginalized in society? Is that your medieval view?

mike65

If you consider the number of people who lived cheek by jowl with various Catholic run institutions, supplied goods and services, knew "inmates" who'd spoken about certain things a vast number of people in this state have lived knowling bad things happened and overhwhelmingly prefered to pretend otherwise.

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

Oh, but I'm afraid they are dear boy. You see, whilst the 'nonce nuns' and the 'buggery brothers' were 'filling their boots' in the 'not so free state', Unionists in Ulster (including clergymen) were enjoying normal relationships with their wives and girlfriends. ...

Kincora boys home.

rant_and_rave wrote:

The RCC (.....)the same way. ...

'Homophobe' forum

---

>

futurehope

Nodin wrote: »

Kincora boys home.

But there were no clergy involved in that case. No one on this forum is trying to claim that child abuse only occurs within The RC church.

In any case, three staff members received lengthy sentences.

As for rumours of The RUC turning a blind eye because one of the accused was an informer (Tara - not exactly at the cutting edge of Loyalist militancy), well, informers saved a lot of lives at that time. Perhaps they should have arrested him and left a variety of Northern Nationalists to be liquidated instead? In any case, still only speculation. What was The Garda's excuse? No war in The Republic was there?

A final comment on Kincora - it amazes me the amount of coverage that that case had (and still does). I'm not complaining about that, but people might consider why, especially in the context of what we now know was going on within The RC church. More diversionary tactics perhaps? Friends in high places within the media?

LookingFor

Red Alert wrote: »

However, there's a few posters urging a wholesale seizing of properties operated or owned by the Catholic church, and the removal of Catholicism as a 'valid' belief in this country. That is a statement akin to Nazism, where it was essentially illegal to be a Jew - either by birth or belief. I believe in the teachings of the RC church, but it's clear to me that quite a few people in the church have not been practicing what they preach. However, some people forget also that many parish churches and schools have been paid for by the local parishioners - and these buildings and lands have had no real connection to orphanages or reformatories. Why should the people who paid for a local building in which to practice their beliefs be made pay for what was done by others in their name?

Thing is, we're all being forced to pay disproportionately for what these religious groups did.

The state bears a moral responsibility for its role too, of course. But not 90% of it! Maybe more like 25% IMO.

The interesting thing about the reference to Nazism is that they were a group who took others into their 'care' and abused and tortured and murdered them, and thus were outlawed. You could say the Church didn't mandate this abuse as a matter of policy, unlike the Nazis, and thus as long as they stick to their policies they should be allowed to remain as is. And that's a fair enough point. But they should certainly be made to pay for the consequences of their members' actions. If they shirk that moral responsibility (with regard to the financial burden being placed on us all to compensate their crimes), then Irish Catholics should, IMO, disown the managing heirarchy of their Church as it is currently. It ought to be the final straw in terms of evidence of the moral corruption of the Church's clerical heirarchy here. This should be every Catholic's concern. If the 'powers that be' in the Church do not respond appropriately, then the body of ordinary people who make up the Church should take things into their own hands and oust that heirarchy.

My dad has been in communication with a number of people within the Church including the Bishop of Ferns and others with regard to issues of abuse and discussing things like the relationship between physical and sexual abuse and so forth, and let me just say, that the insights he provided into the positions and attitudes adopted therein is shocking. There is absolutely no moral authority there. It's been evident throughout in how the Church has handled this..completely self-defensive, self-serving, and this attitude continues right up to now, to today..between comments from the new Catholic leader in England/Wales, through to CORI's reluctance to do their duty and OFFER to accept a commensurate financial responsibility rather than hiding behind a sweetheart legal deal the government gave them. How much more of this are ordinary Catholics here going to take? How many more ways do the religious authorities there have to exhibit their lack of moral fibre?

The lack of intervention from Rome on this is also disheartening. They seem happy to support their people here as long as they think people will accept it regardless of how much pain they've caused through their mismanagement of this.

edit - Also, a question... if the religious groups go down kicking and screaming with regard to changing the terms of the compensation deal, is there any way..someone - anyone? - could take the matter to court in effort to overturn the validity of a government contract such as this one? Can the court not act as a 'check and balance' on government like this?

That a government minister can ink something like this without any potential for objection by others (which I think was the case?), not least the taxpayer, seems incredible. As I understand it the minister in question is quite an old-school staunch Catholic. Again..if this were any other organisation, one might start raising questions of corruption and cronyism on his part.

Red Alert

Well I really wonder why they had files to do with internal Irish stuff over in Rome - there's certainly the possibility that the deal mightn't have been 'in good faith' if they knew facts they weren't telling.

The Raven.

To add insult to injury, Former Education Minister Michael Woods appeared on television earlier making hideous comments regarding the compensation of child abuse victims.

Architect of Church-State deal has 'no regrets' as bill hits €1bn

THE architect of a deal which will result in the taxpayer being hit with a bill of over €1bn for the compensation of child abuse victims last night said he had no regrets over the controversial arrangement.

Former Education Minister Dr Michael Woods said he did not believe that the Government could, or should, seek a renegotiation of the deal which allows the Catholic Church escape 90pc of the cost of compensating victims.

The Government said that it will not seek renegotiation of the deal. Instead the taxpayer will be hit with the bill for compensation for the thousands of victims of systematic cruelty and abuse inflicted by members of religious orders.

The contribution of religious orders was capped at a once-off payment of €128m under an indemnity agreement overseen by former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern in 2002.

The deal was concluded by Dr Woods a day before the 2002 general election. Speaking to the Irish Independent last night, he said he stood by what he described as "the best deal that could be negotiated at the time".

"I think what the government did was good. It was what the people would want and in the long term I think the people will be very happy that this horrific situation was dealt with by this generation," he said.

"You look at this time and you will find this generation of people in Ireland will be very happy with what they did. It was the least we could do for those people ourselves. The religious have to decide themselves on what they have done and how they stand in it."

When asked whether the Church should make any more contributions, Dr Woods said that is "a matter for them".

A spokeswoman for the Department of Education said yesterday: "The Department does not intend to revisit or renegotiate the terms of the existing indemnity agreement.

"It does not intend to enter into any new agreement which would see the State seek further contributions from the contributing congregations."

Read more…

While Cowen is dithering over it with doubts, the ex-Teflon Taoiseach added his two cents:

Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said last night he stood by the deal of seven years ago.

A significant amount of Church assets had been "tied up" in land and property, he said, with the State accepting tracts to the value of the deal.

"My agenda was to try to help the victims," Mr Ahern said.

A total of 32,000 people had been though the institutions, and "they weren't all abused, let's be frank about it," he added.

This fellow has some nerve. Words fail me when I hear statements like this!

Then we have Barry Andrews, Minister for Children who 'refused to agree that the Catholic Church should be told by the Government that it had a moral obligation to pay more.'

He said the best legal advice available to the Government in 2002 was that they had no power to coerce the congregations to pay.

"If there is a moral obligation, then that is something that should be discharged by themselves," he argued.

I think he should be forced to resign. How dare he talk about 'morals'; a concept he knows so little about.

This deal should never have been struck. It was wrong then, but it is immeasurably worse at this stage as more facts come to light. It should now be revisited, and the Catholic Church should be forced to pay a much larger percentage of the compensation. It is highly unlikely that they cannot afford it.

CDfm

Valentia wrote: »

Mr Justice Sean Ryan, said: “For all that the report tries to do, it does not try to balance what happened to children in institutions against what might have become of them if they had not been taken into care in the first place.”

that seems like a very very odd thing to say.

Its very odd.

I have always been very cynical at the States role in all this and individual Civil Servants failure to act.

We are talking about back in the 1930s many of those in positions for pwer had fought in the war of independence and civil war and were not afraid of nuns,priests or anyone else.

They just pocketed their cash - these were public servants and civil servants and these guys have it easy. I would like to see a Civil Service levy to pay the compensation.Maybe if civil servants became accountable they would be more diligant.

Seth Brundle

Andrew H wrote: »

Any person living or dead should be named and shamed that had any involvement in this shameful cover up and abuse.

Any person named should be sent to prison!!

These organisations should be disbanded in any Country that they are in. Their goods, lands and money seized and put into trust to help the people and families whose lives have been ruined.

You cannot convict someone without a court trial. Most of these cases would fail were they to go to court.

netron wrote: »

maybe i can give you an idea of the dominance of the Catholic Church from a personal story - it might help you with getting a handle on it.

This is in the 1970s, so its a bit after the major excesses , but its still a good example.

There's me , home from school, and me Mam making dinner. Dad is at work. We're in the kitchen.

And who walks into the house, unannounced - why the local Catholic priest. No knock , no invite, no "how are ye?" - just walked right in , to start chatting up my mother.

Just ask yourself - what sort of environment gives such people free reign to walk into peoples private homes? And that was treated as normal back then.

(needless to say - my dad was having none of it.. but what he did is not for this board. suffice to say , it never happened again..)

This is stupid! I can recall people in the countryside leaving the key in the front door and neighbours, etc. used to walk into the kitchen. It was commonplace all over rural Ireland.
If your parents didn't want people walking in, why did they leave the door open?

netron wrote: »

if the Bishops were reporting abusers to the Gardai , we wouldnt be having this argument.

About 35 years ago a friend of my fathers (called 'A') abused another friends (called 'B') daughter. When B told my father and a few others, they decided to do something (legal) about it. They went to the gardai. The garda pretty much told them to go home as there was really nothing he could do about it. AFAIK this was not a five minute meeting, the dialogue went on for over number of days and IIRC involved senior gardai members. They also went to the Parish Priest coincidentally who also felt that his hands were tied.
In the end they went to A and threatened to cut his balls off or whatever (maybe they did cut them off). What made the incident even worse was that his wife ran a playschool!

Anyhow, my point is was that the country was in a different time and we can't presume that because something would be done about it now, the same reaction would have taken place then. Ireland was a poverty stricken craphole that held (rightly or wrongly) the Catholic Church in extremely high regard. Nobody wanted to be the one that rocked the boat. Do remember the reaction that Annie Murphy got not so long ago?

People said nothing. Many of the children abused were working on private farms, etc. where they received even more abuse. Much of the abuse was actually legal using corporal punishment methods. The Department of Education were notified about the abuse and did nothing. Its wrong for people to stand on the high moral ground and call for the heads of all within the RCC but don't forget that the public are responsible also.

Look at us now. Have we improved that much? What rights do children have?

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

We are talking about back in the 1930s many of those in positions for pwer had fought in the war of independence and civil war and were not afraid of nuns,priests or anyone else.

Funny, thats not mentioned in the report. Why?

InFront

Michael Woods is on RTE Radio 1 right now.

He mentioned that if Ireland were to revisit its exposure indemnity with the Catholic Church Organisations responsible, we would be upsetting our reputation of sticking to our contracts in the eyes of international investors and maybe damage the economy. Can he really be serious?

Paying 900 million euro of the Catholic Organisations' Bills will damage the economy.