Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

Jesus1222

InFront wrote: »

Michael Woods is on RTE Radio 1 right now.

He mentioned that if Ireland were to revisit its exposure indemnity with the Catholic Church Organisations responsible, we would be upsetting our reputation of sticking to our contracts in the eyes of international investors and maybe damage the economy. Can he really be serious?

Paying 900 million euro of the Catholic Organisations' Bills will damage the economy.

He was talking a serious amount irrelevant ****e yesterday on the news, waffling beyond belief and avoiding the issue. By his own admission he has a very strong Catholic faith, in his eyes his made him the perfect man for the job. This to me is more warped logic. And why, for a start, was he allowed to negotiate this deal, concluded on his last day in office, outside of normal Cabinet procedures? I also read an article which stated the Michael McDowell, then AG, was unhappy with being exluded from these negotiations.

Nodin

Jesus1222 wrote: »

He was talking a serious amount irrelevant ****e yesterday on the news, waffling beyond belief and avoiding the issue. By his own admission he has a very strong Catholic faith, in his eyes his made him the perfect man for the job. This to me is more warped logic. And why, for a start, was he allowed to negotiate this deal, concluded on his last day in office, outside of normal Cabinet procedures? I also read an article which stated the Michael McDowell, then AG, was unhappy with being exluded from these negotiations.

Indeed.

There was no public scrutiny of the deal, which was carried out with the limited knowledge of the then Attorney General, Michael McDowell.
The secret deal would lead to disputes between Woods and McDowell.
Under the deal, religious orders were awarded indemnity against all legal claims if they paid €128m in cash and property.
Total liability was estimated at €300m even though no detailed analysis was carried out by any government department.
The Government estimated there would be 2,000 claimants. In the end, there were more than 14,000.
Total liability is currently estimated at €1.2bn.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-indemnity-deal-at-a-glance-1747692.html

Given the period to be covered, the types of abuse, and the number of institutions involved one wonders where tf they got the figure of 2,000 from. This was 2002 and not 1972 after all.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, thats not mentioned in the report. Why?

I dont know who said history is a lie agreed upon well so is this.

Its convenient theory wise to say people were afriad etc -when in fact they werent.Complaints were made and no action was taken by Civil Servants.

Name and shame the perpetrators and their protectors - but that means public servants too and that takes guts. Why not - they got paid to do a job and did nothing.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

I dont know who said history is a lie agreed upon well so is this.

Its convenient theory wise to say people were afriad etc -when in fact they werent..

I trust you have some evidence to back up this? Or are you saying it's a conspiracy ?(in which case please present the evidence for that as well).

CDfm wrote: »

Complaints were made and no action was taken by Civil Servants...

All civil servants? Some? Many? Please be a bit more specific.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

I trust you have some evidence to back up this? Or are you saying it's a conspiracy ?(in which case please present the evidence for that as well).



All civil servants? Some? Many? Please be a bit more specific.

Nodin - you and I did this one to death on the Christian forum. I had a friend who killed himself due to sexual abuse. If the feckers who had the powers to regulate had done their job it might not have been so. But they didnt.

I do believe there is a certain level individual & collective responsibility that needs to be applied but for individuals and institutions including civil service departments who didnt act I would take their pensions away etc. It will not bring my friend back but it would make me feel a whole lot better.

Its a pity we cant have this discussion without the anti-catholic stuff -so count me out of this one.

gimme5minutes

kbannon wrote: »

You cannot convict someone without a court trial. Most of these cases would fail were they to go to court.

They would not fail. There was a case in the last two weeks where someone got done for abuse they committed 40 years ago. Ill try and find the article. And there have been a couple of cases in the last 10 years where people were convicted of abuse from crimes they committed in the 60s and 70s.

There are still people being convicted of Nazi war crimes. The Germans/Americans are able to go after and punish people who committed terrible crimes back in WWII. As usual in Ireland though, we do nothing but have tribunals and reports that do nothing and let the criminals off scot free.

InFront

gimme5minutes wrote: »

They would not fail. There was a case in the last two weeks where someone got done for abuse they committed 40 years ago.

That doesn't mean these cases, or the vast majority of them, would succeed. The fact is that there is an enormous lack of evidence, which is required in greater magnitude by a court than by this investigation. The case you refer to doesn't prove anything about these abuse cases.

futurehope

CDfm wrote: »

Its a pity we cant have this discussion without the anti-catholic stuff -so count me out of this one.

Very telling comment...

gimme5minutes

InFront wrote: »

That doesn't mean these cases, or the vast majority of them, would succeed. The fact is that there is an enormous lack of evidence, which is required in greater magnitude by a court than by this investigation. The case you refer to doesn't prove anything about these abuse cases.

What concrete evidence is there in any child abuse case? It is extremely rare to have forensic evidence in these type of cases. What happens is a child tells their parents they are being abused, the cops are called and the case goes to court where the child will testify that they were abused and the jury decides if they think the child is teling the truth. There will be no scientific evidence 99% of the time. There would actually probably be alot more evidence for the crimes committed by the religous orders decades ago as they were so brazen about it it was no secret and there were witnesses and they had multiple victims who could all testify against their abuser.

And again if there are still people being convicted for Nazi war crimes it should be even easier to convict the people who were abusing Irish children from 1950-1980 as logisitcally and geographically everything is on a much smaller scale. As in, the abused and the abuser live in the same country, speak the same language and had much more contact with each other than WWII victims had with their guards (individually).

Mr.Micro

InFront wrote: »

Michael Woods is on RTE Radio 1 right now.

He mentioned that if Ireland were to revisit its exposure indemnity with the Catholic Church Organisations responsible, we would be upsetting our reputation of sticking to our contracts in the eyes of international investors and maybe damage the economy. Can he really be serious?

Paying 900 million euro of the Catholic Organisations' Bills will damage the economy.

Woods was never up to it when he was a Minister so who gives a F... what he has to say now. It is his type of attitude that has kept Ireland repressed in the past and brush everything under the carpet. What economy? FF did all the damage and are continuing to do so.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Nodin -(....) ...didnt. .

I'm unaware of anyone saying that there were not failures on the part of some. The point is that baseless, wild, speculative and/or fantastic claims on such a serious subject are rather inappropriate.

CDfm wrote: »

Its a pity we cant have this discussion without the anti-catholic stuff -so count me out of this one.

The facts involve the Irish catholic church. Criticism of same does not equate to being 'anti-catholic'.

truebluedub

paddyboy23 wrote: »

i seen brian hayes and eamon gillmore on the news and even the state the country is in financialy they still try to play there silly party politics blaming ff for what happend to them poor innocent children there partys were also in goverment during the last 60 or 70 years ask any man who over 40 in ireland and we all new what was going on this issue should not be for scoring politics points each of your partys enjoyed the praise ye got from the pulpit and the headmasters office i remember my mam saying to me years ago its artane for u me boy and the cat o nine tails everyone new every parents in ireland 1 time or another told kids the same politicans cop on fools

Under Dick Spring Labour walked from Government over FF's protection of a child abuser in the 1990's. In fairness this did not include the stickie's who hadn't joined yet.

RiverWilde

rant_and_rave wrote: »

The former Australian Governor General, An Anglican Bishop, had to resign because of child abuse allegations. Anglicans are child abusers too.

Yes there are abusers in the Anglican faith as you state and my local vicar pointed this out today during his sermon. However, it seems that the RC church has taken a very defensive, legalistic, go away and stop trying to get us to own up to our mistakes attitude.

The repeated and oft cited examples of hiding abusers in other parishes and countries so as to avoid having to own up is what makes this so terrible. The fact that the abuse became ingrained in the system - it became acceptable. How a Christian organisation can allow this to go on for so many years beggars belief. What's worse is that even though there are piles of evidence to indict; the church authorities still refuse to hand over abusers for prosecution and only offer limp wristed 'apologies.'

Riv

netron

InFront wrote: »

Michael Woods is on RTE Radio 1 right now.

He mentioned that if Ireland were to revisit its exposure indemnity with the Catholic Church Organisations responsible, we would be upsetting our reputation of sticking to our contracts in the eyes of international investors and maybe damage the economy. Can he really be serious?

Paying 900 million euro of the Catholic Organisations' Bills will damage the economy.

Substitute the word "Moonie" or "Scientologist" for "Catholic" and you'll get an idea about where Michael Woods is coming from.

As the Germans awoke from their Hitler cult, we Irish will one day awake from this Catholic cult. And then we'll realise what they did to us.

SirHenryGrattan

gimme5minutes wrote: »

What concrete evidence is there in any child abuse case?

Unfortunately there is usually none. Think about how difficult it is to prove a rape case without hard physical evidence. This is probably why the Irish Government set up the Redress Board which was an admirable compromise to avoid dragging the abuse victims through the courts should the perpetrators decided to contest every case. However now that we have the Commission's report there should be grounds for prosecution which is why the names of the perpetrators who are known to the Commission should be released. They should be put on trial and convicted even if no compensation is paid to the victims.

Seth Brundle

gimme5minutes wrote: »

They would not fail. There was a case in the last two weeks where someone got done for abuse they committed 40 years ago. Ill try and find the article. And there have been a couple of cases in the last 10 years where people were convicted of abuse from crimes they committed in the 60s and 70s.

There are still people being convicted of Nazi war crimes. The Germans/Americans are able to go after and punish people who committed terrible crimes back in WWII. As usual in Ireland though, we do nothing but have tribunals and reports that do nothing and let the criminals off scot free.

There was thousands of children abused. There were 800 or so abusers. Many of whom (on both sides) are dead. Many of those abused were abused by other children. Some of those who claimed to have been abused were in fact perpetrators of the abuse.
In terms of gaining positive ID on the accused is extremely difficult with many of the abusers having had name changes over the years (apparently nuns changed their name with the weather and AFAIK no records of these were kept).
A legal challenge would be very difficult and IMO would result in most of the cases being lost.

Anyhow, I think there is a large amount of anger for obvious reasons but people are missing the fact that we haven't come a hell of a long way since then. Look at the structures in place today to look after children's interests and welfare. We are great at having reports drawn up but do sweet FA about them resulting in more children going to be abused, raped, prostituted and with some even dying.

As for the indemnity and compensation - my opinion is that whilst something needed to be started ASAP back then, Mick Woods was told to sign the contract by Bertie who was pally with that scumbag Desmond Connell. However, I'd say that Woods was only too delighted to do so!

SirHenryGrattan

futurehope wrote: »

I'm afraid it's not 'racist northern loyalists' who've been tampering with Irish kids, it's The RC church. quote]

Indeed. The Loyalists just burnt them out or more recently kicked one to death. As bad as it is I don't think a child abuse scandal justifies the levels of discrimination seen in NI. The British Government certainly does not agree. By the way we will soon have our own report coming out on industrial schools so don't light the bonfires just yet.

The Raven.

netron wrote: »

Substitute the word "Moonie" or "Scientologist" for "Catholic" and you'll get an idea about where Michael Woods is coming from.

‘Substitute the word "Moonie" or "Scientologist" for "Catholic"’…

Fine so far. I understand this bit: Catholicism is a cult just like the Moonies and the Scientologists. But what has this got to do with ‘where Michael Woods is coming from’?

As the Germans awoke from their Hitler cult, we Irish will one day awake from this Catholic cult. And then we'll realise what they did to us.

Netron, what bothers me greatly about this statement is not directed at you alone, but I hate the constant use of ‘we’ in these types of comments. In this context it infers that you and I and all other Irish people are asleep and somehow brainwashed by the Catholic Church. This is not actually true.

As a child, I was browbeaten into swallowing all the claptrap. I also believed in Santa Claus. However, like most Irish people, I grew up and formed my own opinions and saw things for what they were. I am fully aware of ‘what they did to us.’

Apart from this, I do agree with what I think you are saying. In spite of the fact that the definition of the term ‘cult’ is reserved for religious beliefs and practices outside of mainstream cultures (see Wiki), I would concur that mainstream religions are no different than cults.

CDfm

There is a lot of anti-catholicism creeping in here.

That does not do the subject justice - as you have the whole issue of the state taking people into care and how individual civil servants and whole civil service sections did nothing. Thats serious.

You can see the culture creeping back with the murder suicide report in Wexford and even the failure of the banking regulator in the current recession.

You cant avoid that the state knew and did nothing.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

There is a lot of anti-catholicism creeping in here. .

....then quote whoever and confront it.

CDfm wrote: »

and whole civil service sections .

And you've proof that everone knew? Please link.

CDfm wrote: »

You can see the culture creeping back.

The only thing I can see 'creeping' in is an attempt to shift the blame from the molestors. Nobody has denied the failure of the state. However the facts are that a group of organisations in a unique position of trust managed to have within their ranks at least 800 abusers over a series of decades and to in the main avoid dealing with them, either under their own lights or that of the state.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

....then quote whoever and confront it.



And you've proof that everone knew? Please link.

You ignore upwards of a billion reasons - the compensation is being paid because they(Civil Servants) knew and did nothing.

Civil Servants knew and it was their job to.

Its just the same with the banking stuff today exept its tens of billions.

The only thing I can see 'creeping' in is an attempt to shift the blame from the molestors.

There should be prosecutions no matter what the age of the perpetrator and compensation for victims.

This isnt a church and state issue. Go after the religious orders but there should be full disclosure of the states part too.

Nobody has denied the failure of the state. However the facts are that a group of organisations in a unique position of trust managed to have within their ranks at least 800 abusers over a series of decades and to in the main avoid dealing with them, either under their own lights or that of the state.

THe state knew and didnt act.

Its easy to pass on responsibility on who was doing the policing.

Deal with it and deal with it properly.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

the compensation is being paid because they(Civil Servants) knew and did nothing..

No, the state is paying some of the compensation because some knew and failed to act, and because the state sent them there.

CDfm wrote: »

Civil Servants knew and it was their job to...

All of them?

Seth Brundle

Nodin wrote: »

No, the state is paying some of the compensation because some knew and failed to act, and because the state sent them there.



All of them?

Wasn't the problem discussed in the Dáil in the 40s?


On a separate note, am I being cynical when I see that Dublin's Lord Mayor has opened a Book of Solidarity for the abused (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0523/1224247217738.html).
Who is she going to give it to?
Is she just trying to score points for her election campaign?

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

No, the state is paying some of the compensation because some knew and failed to act, and because the state sent them there.

Finally we agree on state culpability.

All of them?

Thats the difficult part. I hate to use the phrase "in denial" but there is a bit of "institutional amnesia" going on here.Im not buying "we were all afraid of the drunken nun" theory and it has too much killinaskully logic for me.

This is too serious for that and the 10 years the report took is very convenient all around.

So yes all of them.

You cant cherrypick -in the same way you cant cherrypick with the religious orders(and we have seen how squirelly they are)

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Finally we agree on state culpability.

I never denied there was state culpability.

CDfm wrote: »

Thats the difficult (.......) squirelly they are)

Wild speculation. The place of the church in Irish society during the first 50-60 years of the state is well known, widely documented and researched. Yet, despite this, you embark on a contrarian crusade that it was otherwise, without evidence, without facts.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

I never denied there was state culpability.




Wild speculation. The place of the church in Irish society during the first 50-60 years of the state is well known, widely documented and researched. Yet, despite this, you embark on a contrarian crusade that it was otherwise, without evidence, without facts.

You had a country whose politicians and senior civil servants and policemen had faced down the Black and Tans in the War of Independence.My grandfather did.

Had no problems during the Civil War of shooting or hanging their former buddies.

You had Socialists and whatever the other side were both forming regiments to fight in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s.

These guys could be fairly ruthless.

I think your view of Irish politics and society is clouded.

Its ok to say they(the Civil Service) knew but chose to ignore it and do nothing now we are paying massive compensation.It really is and its factual.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

You had a country whose politicians and senior civil servants and policemen had faced down the Black and Tans in the War of Independence..

And these went to consititute the whole of the civil service? Do you have a figure for war of independence veterans working in the department of education from 1922 to 1970?

Since when does the ability to do one thing preclude the inability to do another?

CDfm wrote: »

Had no problems during the Civil War of shooting or hanging their former buddies. .

As above.

CDfm wrote: »

You had Socialists and whatever both forming regiments to fight in the Spanish Civil War in the 1930s..

A minority, widely condemned by the church on the socialist side. Did they go into the civil service too?

CDfm wrote: »

I think your view of Irish politics and society is clouded...

Yours is a simplistic attempt to justify a conclusion after the fact.

CDfm

Nodin -it is very simple -the Civil Service knew & did nothing.

It could have and didnt.

Sr Stans denial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0523/1224247217774.html

Now you dont have any former Civil Servants issuing denials but you have compensation payments been made.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Nodin -it is very simple -the Civil Service knew & did nothing.

knew everything? All of them?

Where's your figures re war of indepence/civil war/spanish civil war veterans in the DOE, btw?

CDfm

They knew.