Childcare Abuse Inquiry Results

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

They knew.

More vague waffle.....despite the fact its already a given that some did know. But you'd say anything to shift the focus. This gives the true context to what civil service inaction existed -

The perpetrators abused children because they could. They drew that power from the immense stature of the church, its ability to command deference and to intimidate dissenters. The majesty of the church became, in the hands of the abusers, a cloak of impunity. More than anything else, the violence of the institutions was an expression of abso- lute power and the absolute corruption it engenders. “Corporal punishment,” says the report, “was used to express power and status.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0523/1224247188209.html

CDfm

The Religious Orders knew and the Civil Service knew.

It is that simple.

The perpetrators abused children because they could.

All the rest is just sociological & political double speak and and excuses for doing absolutely nothing.

Mr.Micro

Its the superstitious nonsense that people were afraid to go against the church and the church knew its power. Even today people in Ireland are afraid of criticising the church and its minions for fear of eternal retribution, so the abuse was allowed to continue over the years. The state was infested with religious zealots who practised religion as an insurance policy for a next life but in reality did as they wanted but all would be forgiven in the end. Detach state from religion or anything worthwhile so that reason and logic may prevail not morally corrupt religious institutions.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

the Civil Service knew..

All of them?

CDfm wrote: »

All the rest is just sociological & political double speak and and excuses for doing absolutely nothing.

Funny that people were saying much the same thing about church domination of society long before this came out.....Why do you reckon that was?

CDfm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its the superstitious nonsense that people were afraid to go against the church and the church knew its power. Even today people in Ireland are afraid of criticising the church and its minions for fear of eternal retribution, so the abuse was allowed to continue over the years.

There may be some truth on certain issues but I dont think that was the case with abuse. I know of 2 cases where complaints were made.

In a professional civil service you dont get that. You also had institutional abuse in the UK where institutions were not run by the Catholic Church.

The state was infested with religious zealots who practised religion as an insurance policy for a next life but in reality did as they wanted but all would be forgiven in the end

Charlie Haughey was one such zealot I suppose. Garrett Fitzgerald another. Brendan Corish a third. These were politicians so should be representative of that era.Do you see what I am saying -people werent like that.

Detach state from religion or anything worthwhile so that reason and logic may prevail not morally corrupt religious institutions.

If you detach the religious stuff from it and look at it coldly as institutions (both state & religious) factually it is really grim by itself.

What is happening here is that mitigating factors are being used instead of factual information. These mitigating circumstances shouldnt wash and should not be accepted as excuses.

xxmarymoxx

how can you detach religious stuff from it when it is the religious order that is a fault.All we get from you cd is blame the civil servants lets not talk about the religious psychos who inflicted all the pain on these kids.What a joke every order is to blame yes some civil servants doctors and other.But while they sat back and let it happen it was THE RELIGIOUS ORDER DOING THE DAMAGE SIMPLE

CDfm

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

how can you detach religious stuff from it when it is the religious order that is a fault.All we get from you cd is blame the civil servants lets not talk about the religious psychos who inflicted all the pain on these kids.What a joke every order is to blame yes some civil servants doctors and other.But while they sat back and let it happen it was THE RELIGIOUS ORDER DOING THE DAMAGE SIMPLE

I am saying yes the religious orders were at fault and I am very consistant and do believe that prosecutions should have gone ahead.

THe Civil Service did have a role as they placed the children in the institutions,paid for them and policed them and could have stopped them.

I dont think they (the Civil Servants) should be able to avoid individual or collective responsibility with the excuses we are being given. Of course, they knew as it wasnt a state secret.

I am interested in why you dont use abuser or rapist in this context as that is what the members of the religious orders were. Is rhetoric is getting in the way of the facts. The facts arent nice as it means we need to put doublespeak aside.

Those who protected them or covered up for them share the blame. So why not blame the civil service collectively -it wasnt a state secret.So we leave Civil Servants of the hook and expect them to behave differently next time.

I am fairly livid that 1 billion plus is being paid out of tax payers money for this. How could current serving Civil Servants sign off on this????

70 or 80 million and 10 years to tell us stuff we already know and no prosecutions.

BroomBurner

You can blame the church, you can blame the civil service, you can blame the public sector, the government, etc. You can blame everyone, to be honest. What about normal, lay people? Wasn't it fairly well known that this stuff was going on? Why didn't someone do something?

What are you going to do now about it? Will you protest outside church gates every sunday in the hope to stop people entering? Will you protest to ensure a removal of church power from the state?

What are you going to do now that YOU know?

xxmarymoxx

ya the civil service are maybe second in line they are not important to the victims right the nuns and priests and christian brothers that raped beat and abused them need to be named and shamed first and every religious order in this country be shut down and churches closed simple.People stil go to mass in this country and hand over money for fat ass priests and nuns to live off its a disgrace.Let them turn the churches or any so called house of god into something that will benefit the people not the scumbags that are allowed run them

CDfm

BroomBurner wrote: »

You can blame the church, you can blame the civil service, you can blame the public sector, the government, etc. You can blame everyone, to be honest. What about normal, lay people? Wasn't it fairly well known that this stuff was going on? Why didn't someone do something?

What are you going to do now about it? Will you protest outside church gates every sunday in the hope to stop people entering? Will you protest to ensure a removal of church power from the state?

What are you going to do now that YOU know?

I was too young to know but its fairly black and white that it was common knowledge within the Religious Institutions , Public Sector and by Politicians of all main parties.

They tolerated the abuse.

I cant imagine a Civil Servant getting fired for leaking information like this to the Sunday World in the 1970s. I just cant and the Public Service Unions are very powerful.

BroomBurner

CDfm wrote: »

I was too young to know but its fairly black and white that it was common knowledge within the Religious Institutions , Public Sector and by Politicians of all main parties.

They tolerated the abuse.

I cant imagine a Civil Servant getting fired for leaking information like this to the Sunday World in the 1970s. I just cant and the Public Service Unions are very powerful.

But you know now, so what are you going to do?

CDfm

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

ya the civil service are maybe second in line they are not important to the victims right the nuns and priests and christian brothers that raped beat and abused them need to be named and shamed first and every religious order in this country be shut down and churches closed simple.People stil go to mass in this country and hand over money for fat ass priests and nuns to live off its a disgrace.Let them turn the churches or any so called house of god into something that will benefit the people not the scumbags that are allowed run them

Thats a bit blanket anti-catholic there.

Target particular religious institutions by all means and prosecute but abusers will go where they can get away with it so whats to prevent them becoming bus drivers, nurses etc.

Those who had the power to stop it didnt act.

Just say in the morning the Gardai said collectively -drug dealers are dangerous so we will police everything else but them. How would you feel.

This is similar to that.

xxmarymoxx

whats wrong cdfm are you afraid to come right out and say that yes it was christian perverts that did this.Everyone time someone posts here you come back with crap like what about the lay people.Yes we alll know abuse goes on everywhere this is not the issue the issue is the so called christian people of this country geting away WITH RAPING BEATING AND KILLING CHILDREN YES CDfm CHRISTIANS DID IT

CDfm

BroomBurner wrote: »

But you know now, so what are you going to do?

My daughter goes to a Youth Club and I make sure I go to some events etc and did make sure to attend a meeting pn summer activities & find out about child protection policies etc. No problem asking the schools too.

Well why shouldn't I. Its my responsibility.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

There may be some truth on certain issues but I dont think that was the case with abuse. I know of 2 cases where complaints were made.

In a professional civil service you dont get that. You also had institutional abuse in the UK where institutions were not run by the Catholic Church.





Charlie Haughey was one such zealot I suppose. Garrett Fitzgerald another. Brendan Corish a third. These were politicians so should be representative of that era.Do you see what I am saying -people werent like that.



If you detach the religious stuff from it and look at it coldly as institutions (both state & religious) factually it is really grim by itself.

What is happening here is that mitigating factors are being used instead of factual information. These mitigating circumstances shouldnt wash and should not be accepted as excuses.

abuse or children by adults happens in every country in the world-the uk is no exception-but what has happend in the republic over the last 60 years by the church is criminal-in the uk if allegations are made against any adult by a child the police and state take it very seriously-there is a case in england at the moment against the catholic church by a solicitor who was sexually abused. all i hear on this thread is its hard to prove,well i can tell you now it isent,most abusers do it more than once when enough abused come forward that is proof, but the irish state is trying to whitewash their part in it,even to the stage of trying to bring forward a blasphemy law to stop irish citizens saying anti catholic rhetoric,but i can tell them not this will not be hidden under the carpet

CDfm

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

whats wrong cdfm are you afraid to come right out and say that yes it was christian perverts that did this.Everyone time someone posts here you come back with crap like what about the lay people.Yes we alll know abuse goes on everywhere this is not the issue the issue is the so called christian people of this country geting away WITH RAPING BEATING AND KILLING CHILDREN YES CDfm CHRISTIANS DID IT

THey didnt do it because they were christians but because they were perverts.

But being christians or being part of a christian community they knew full well that what they were doing was wrong and the penalties for them should be severe.

That doesn't excuse the institutions of government. Its their job to protect and serve.They didnt.

Its criminal and should be prosecuted.

getz wrote: »

abuse or children by adults happens in every country in the world-the uk is no exception-but what has happend in the republic over the last 60 years by the church is criminal-in the uk if allegations are made against any adult by a child the police and state take it very seriously-there is a case in england at the moment against the catholic church by a solicitor who was sexually abused. all i hear on this thread is its hard to prove,well i can tell you now it isent,most abusers do it more than once when enough abused come forward that is proof, but the irish state is trying to whitewash their part in it,even to the stage of trying to bring forward a blasphemy law to stop irish citizens saying anti catholic rhetoric,but i can tell them not this will not be hidden under the carpet

THats it in a nutshell -if you agree it is wrong it needs to be tackled robustly with no whitewash.

It is always wrong and always criminal.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

THey didnt do it because they were christians but because they were perverts.

But being christians or being part of a christian community they knew full well that what they were doing was wrong and the penalties for them should be severe.

That doesn't excuse the institutions of government. Its their job to protect and serve.They didnt.

Its criminal and should be prosecuted.



THats it in a nutshell -if you agree it is wrong it needs to be tackled robustly with no whitewash.

It is always wrong and always criminal.

the bit i find so wrong is that they [goverment/church]are still trying to cover up and protect the abusers,and their own part in it

CDfm

getz wrote: »

the bit i find so wrong is that they [goverment/church]are still trying to cover up and protect the abusers,and their own part in it

Thats the bit of the logic that gets me too.

xxmarymoxx

JUST like it was the responsibilty of the priests and nuns to look after the children that were placed in their care and guess what they didnt.My daughter is making her communion next year she will be going to the church because its a day to dress up and get loads of money and.Tell me cdfm does your child go to church if so do you let them go into a confession box with a priest? because priests are never vetted by the guards why because they dont need to be there men of GOD what a joke if there is a god his name is SATAN

CDfm

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

JUST like it was the responsibilty of the priests and nuns to look after the children that were placed in their care and guess what they didnt.

You can only delegate authority but not responsibility. You cant pass the buck.

The state gave them authority over the children but the State (and Civil Service) remained responsible for them(the children).

My daughter is making her communion next year she will be going to the church because its a day to dress up and get loads of money and.Tell me cdfm does your child go to church if so do you let them go into a confession box with a priest?

My daughter is 15 and goes to a different church to me. Yes I have checked out its child protection policy there.

For your child you need to check out the schools child protection policy in respect of this. I would and its reasonable and the parish child protection policy should be available at the parish office.

Ask her teacher. Why not.Thats reasonable. I checked when my daughter was that age.

because priests are never vetted by the guards why because they dont need to be there men of GOD what a joke if there is a god his name is SATAN

The only time a priest represents God is on the altar during the Eucharist. Otherwise -well you are the parent and you are responsible for your child. Otherwise a priest is just a man.

xxmarymoxx

CDfm wrote: »

You can only delegate authority but not responsibility. You cant pass the buck.

The state gave them authority over the children but the State (and Civil Service) remained responsible for them(the children).



My daughter is 15 and goes to a different church to me. Yes I have checked out its child protection policy there.

For your child you need to check out the schools child protection policy in respect of this. I would and its reasonable and the parish child protection policy should be available at the parish office.

Ask her teacher. Why not.Thats reasonable. I checked when my daughter was that age.



The only time a priest represents God is on the altar during the Eucharist. Otherwise -well you are the parent and you are responsible for your child. Otherwise a priest is just a man.

SO all the priests and nuns that raped and beat and killed kids were at the altar at the time were they

CDfm

xxmarymoxx wrote: »

SO all the priests and nuns that raped and beat and killed kids were at the altar at the time were they

Its not a religious thing -I would have no problem seeing the abusers hanged.

On the gallows with them I would put some Civil Servants-these were the people into whose care they were taken and whose duty it was to protect them(the abused kids). And who didnt.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Those who protected them or covered up for them share the blame. So why not blame the civil service collectively -it wasnt a state secret.So we leave Civil Servants of the hook and expect them to behave differently next time.
.

So, according to your logic, The Department of Agriculture is as culpable as the DOE? Please explain, (along with the link to statitistics of veterans of armed conflict employed in the DOE)

netron

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0523/1224247210382.html


Statements of “worst thing” that happened to participants while living in an institution

– Severe physical and sexual abuse.

– Stripped naked by a nun and beaten with a stick and given no supper and humiliated.

– After running away having my hair cut off to a very short length and was made to stand naked to be beaten by nun in front of other people.

– At 6 I was raped by nun and at 10 I was hit with a poker on head by nun.

– When I told nuns about being molested by ambulance driver, I was stripped naked and whipped by four nuns to “get the devil out of you”.

– Sexual and physical abuse, no education, and not enough food.

– Forced oral sex and beatings.

– A brother tried to rape me but did not succeed, so I was beaten instead.

– Taken from bed and made to walk around naked with other boys whilst brothers used their canes and flicked at their penis.

– Tied to a cross and raped whilst others masturbated at the side.

Severe physical abuse

– Having my head submerged in dirty water in the laundry repeatedly by a nun.
– A severe beating by two nuns for a trivial misdemeanour until I was bleeding.

– Tied to a bed and physically abused by three carers.

– I was beaten and hospitalised by the head brother and not allowed to go to my father’s funeral in case my bruises were seen; also the head brother threatened to kill me.

– They made me change my surname and beat me until I accepted it. They took my identity from me. The put me through mental torture which is still with me now. They separated me from my sister and sent her to another institution.

– Being physically beaten by nuns and referred to as a number. My head was pushed under water in the bath. The nuns threw food into a group of children and I would have to struggle to get some food.

– Being locked in a furnace room and left, bitten by rats, found by coal delivery man, removed, washed in cold water, bites cleaned and then put back there.

– We were all lined up naked and slapped in the face a lot. We all had to drink water from toilets and were all washed in same dirty bath water.

– Starving and beatings like a concentration camp. There were so many worst things. Every day was a nightmare.


( and the above is just an extract... see the URL for more)

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

So, according to your logic, The Department of Agriculture is as culpable as the DOE? Please explain, (along with the link to statitistics of veterans of armed conflict employed in the DOE)

Its a Civil Service issue and they should pay.Its much fairer than from taxpayers money.

netron

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...247210382.html


Statements of “worst thing” that happened to participants while living in an institution

Nodin - this is the stuff that Civil Servants conveniently ignored.

Nodin

I see the quest to shift the focus continues....

CDfm wrote: »

Its a Civil Service issue.

Who was it who orchestrated the regimes?

Why does the report not say its a 'civil service issue'?

Why are all departments equally liable?

Wheres the proof and back up of your nonsense re 'war veterans'?

CDfm wrote: »

and they should pay.Its much fairer than from taxpayers money..

Odd that you're coming out with that on the same day the ones who ran systematically abusive regime have refused to cough up more money, with the same arrogant tone they've used in the past.

Don't civil servants pay tax?

CDfm wrote: »

Nodin - this is the stuff that Civil Servants conveniently ignored.

How many of them? Thats a question you're seemingly incapable of answering.

CDfm

getz wrote: »

the bit i find so wrong is that they [goverment/church]are still trying to cover up and protect the abusers,and their own part in it

Getz nailed it down and its the best commentary Ive seen on it.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Getz nailed it down and its the best commentary Ive seen on it.

Why not substantiate your own arguments and answer the questions they raise.........

Seth Brundle

getz wrote: »

abuse or children by adults happens in every country in the world-the uk is no exception-but what has happend in the republic over the last 60 years by the church is criminal-in the uk if allegations are made against any adult by a child the police and state take it very seriously-there is a case in england at the moment against the catholic church by a solicitor who was sexually abused. all i hear on this thread is its hard to prove,well i can tell you now it isent,most abusers do it more than once when enough abused come forward that is proof, but the irish state is trying to whitewash their part in it,even to the stage of trying to bring forward a blasphemy law to stop irish citizens saying anti catholic rhetoric,but i can tell them not this will not be hidden under the carpet

The abusers were indemnified against legal action when each of the abused signed their statement!
Legal action will be difficult.
Many of the abusers are dead. Many of them have had one or more name changes thus making a definite identification much more difficult. Many of the abused cannot name their abuser!

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Why not substantiate your own arguments and answer the questions they raise.........

I already have.