Three Year Licence Fee Increase ???

J.R.

I was at the NARGC county AGM a few nights ago and they announced that the intention of the Dept. of Justice was to increase the 3 year licence fee which is due to be enforced this year.

The price has not been decided yet but it's to be between €80 - €100 for each firearm....shotgun, rifle, pistol etc. for a three year period.

The feeling at the meeting was that it was a ploy to:
a. raise much needed funds
b. try to get the number of guns reduced....a lad with 4 guns will find it expensive to pay €400 this year plus club fees, especially in the present economic climate. If he used 1 or 2 on a regular basis he may be tempted to try to sell the other two, which are seldom used to try to cut costs.

If this happens guns will become worthless....supply & demand......as there may be a surplus traded in in July.

They also stated that Des Crofton reckoned that the only leverage he would have at the meetings would be 20,000+ letters from shooters rejecting the proposal....this I gather is, at present, being prepared & worded to be sent to each NARGC club secretary.

Sparks

You'd think they'd forgotten what happened last time they tried to raise the licence fees. Feck's sake, we were promised an across-the-board lowering of fees to €25/year/firearm.

kildarejoe

I dont suppose they will see sense and change the licence structure so that the person is licensed and gun details on one licence. Similar to uk licences.
Or like your driving licence, you dont have to have different licences for a car, a motorbike, a tractor, a bus, a truck etc. Imagine the confusion and extra work and expense that would create.
Wouldent it cut costs significantly if you had a 3 or 5 year licence, creditcard type with your photo (added security).
Once you recive garda clearance and security checks couldent the motor tax office look after the paperwork side of it.
Just a sensible suggestion but when did our politicans do anything sensible.

Ned Muldhoon

Heard it's going to be 100 euro per firearm - that includes subsequent shotguns and limited licenses.

Cass

S***! €100 per firearm. 9 firearms in the household and both me and my father are members of 2 clubs. Thats a grand total of €1770. i know its for 3 years but...... S***!

J.R. you said its "due to be enforced". Is that a definite? If so need to raid the kids piggy bank.

riflehunter77

Anyone know for certain how much we will be paying there is two many numbers flying about the place. Or a time frame from when we find out ?

Ned Muldhoon

riflehunter77 - since the FCP was privy to all discussions, the only thing I think we could do would be to ask them or check the relevant websites, or then again that could be a waste of time.

Sparks

Ned - did you do that?

Ned Muldhoon

NARGC, CA and IFA, including a slew of local TD's and councillors. some if the local reps I spoke to were shocked at the lack of communication from the NGB's and bodies proporting to support our sport(s). The only ones with any balls appear to be the IFA.

TBH, at the point now where I couldn't care less. Mr. Ahern will push this bill through with the full support of the bodies on the FCP (don't even try to feed us with the BS that they knew nothing about it and / or could do nothing).
Noticed there is no communication apart from the official DOJ line on the various websites?

It wasn't me!

Of course they could do nothing! You are aware that that's how the law works, right?

Ned Muldhoon

how the law works - yes! you'd be suprised how close to it I work, so please spare me any barrack room lecture.

My issue is with months of 'have faith in consultative process' etc. All NGB's / FCP members were at all times aware they could publish progress reports etc - yet nothing came about.

Anyway, all done and dusted now (anyone who believes any different is living in a fools paradise).

Sparks

1) Progress reports were posted, though not anywhere near as many as there should have been - on that we're in agreement both in public and in private;
2) I think you had some serious misconceptions about what the law would allow the FCP to do, given your past posts on this one Ned;
3) The FCP with all of its faults is still something we only wished we could have ten years ago. And I have very, very distinct memories from then of the wise old men saying it would never happen, and the shouty people saying it would never happen and basicly, they were both wrong.

And despite the problems and flaws, I'd much rather fix the bugs than bin the FCP.

jwshooter

i heard its going to be E65, a firearm regardless of what it is for the 3 years.

Sparks

And by the way - "done and dusted"? Would you mind waiting until after you try before you give up? Where's your letter to your local TDs? To the Minister? To the TDs on the Justice Committee? To the spokespeople for Justice on the various opposition parties? Who've you met or called or emailed?

It wasn't me!

jwshooter wrote: »

i heard its going to be E65, a firearm regardless of what it is for the 3 years.

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

riflehunter77

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

Two many numbers flying all around the place, its like getting a quote off a builder

jwshooter

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Aye, it was that or €66 I'd heard myself. Was wondering where the hundred squids figure came from.

66 it was, iwm

Grizzly 45

22 quid a year then per firearm.THEN it is more reasonable than some current prices?

J.R.

jwshooter wrote: »

66 it was, iwm

€65 or €66 was the figure 'bandied' about by the Dept. of Justice last year. They claimed they didn't want to raise fees but neither did they want to lose any money with the changeover.

The income made from firearm renewals for three years was divided by the number of licences at the time to come up with a figure...... which worked out at €65 or €66 per firearm for three years.

At the meeting I was at the committee had a typed letter from Des Crofton stating the €80 - €100 figure.........unfortunately they didn't have a copy for everyone as more members attended than was anticipated.

The committee had also been in contact with Des by phone in relation to the matter. He pointed out that in the present economic climate the public would have little sympathy for shooters suffering the increase when others were losing jobs, pensions, homes etc.

This was the reason he suggested that a standard letter send to him by 20,000+ members would be the only clout of any significance that he could bring to the next meeting.

I suggested that a copy of the letter to be drafted should also be made available on NARGC website whereby all shooters could access it to sent to him completed.......nothing on site yet.....the meeting was last Wednesday evening in Monasterevin.

J.R.

from a summary of the FCP

FEE STRUCTURE:
The last increase in the fee level was in 1992 and before that 1964! The Department of Justice will not seek to make a profit from license fee revenue but neither will the Department subsidise it. For the first three-year licence period, the Department of Justice will not seek to increase overall revenue income but will offset the cost of the scheme by savings which will be achieved in lower administration costs of the three-year licence.

All firearms will attract the same fee irrespective of whether the firearm is a shotgun, second/subsequent shotgun, rifle or pistol.

The fee per firearm will be based for the first three-year licence period on the total revenue in 2007 divided by the total number of firearms registered in 2007, multiplied by three. Based on the figures which were placed before the Panel at the time this structure was agreed, this would appear to indicate a fee per firearm somewhere in the order of €66 for the first three-year licensing period. However, the fee may vary slightly as the agreed structure for arriving at the fee will take account of the final revenue and final number of firearms registered in 2007.

The training licence fee will be 50% of the normal fee.

But this was released some time ago.....before the bust!

J.R.

Another issue that was raised at the meeting was if fees to gun clubs would decrease once a person had received the 3 year licence.

The fear was that a member may renew their Gun Club fees this year and pay for their 3 year firearm licence. Next year or the year after they may not pay gun club fees as they have their licence anyway and may feel that they don't have to pay fees to get licence. This issue is to be addressed by the FCP who are aware of this.

clivej

I am just back in from talking to my FO and she told me that she was at a meeting last week in Dublin with ref. to the new license and other issues.

Well the cost will be €99 per gun for a 3 year license and will last for 3 years from date of issue. It should be in by August IF the act is signed in by/before then.

Plus it's looking grim for the handguns.

chem

Rip off!! Whats the news on the pistols clive? anything else get a mention?

clivej

chem wrote: »

Rip off!! Whats the news on the pistols clive?..........

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.

chem wrote: »

......anything else get a mention?

Only that my application for a new gun license has/is tonight going from the FO's office to the Super's office and it's only taken 8 weeks to get up stairs.

meathstevie

clivej wrote: »

I am just back in from talking to my FO and she told me that she was at a meeting last week in Dublin with ref. to the new license and other issues.

Well the cost will be €99 per gun for a 3 year license and will last for 3 years from date of issue. It should be in by August IF the act is signed in by/before then.

Plus it's looking grim for the handguns.

She f'ing joking is she ? From 66 to 99 is some increase between planning and implementing.

chem

Not to fear. Or NGBs will come dashing to the call and put right the wrongs................wait for it...........easy now.............any minute now!!..................................................................................
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clivej

What I'm I missing here. I know it's €25/year for a shotgun but I'm paying €38/year for my gun license and for 3 years that's €114 so I'm I not saving €15 over the 3 years?

J.R.

clivej wrote: »

What I'm I missing here. I know it's €25/year for a shotgun but I'm paying €38/year for my gun license and for 3 years that's €114 so I'm I not saving €15 over the 3 years?

You're right - if you are discussing rifles or handguns ....they're €38 per year per gun which is, as you rightly point out, €114 for three years.....so the new licence for €99 for three years is indeed a saving of €15 over three years.

The majority of guns in Ireland would be shotguns which were €25 per year or €75 for three years ...an increase of €24 over three years.

The real sting is the licence renewal for a second or subsequent shotgun....anybody who had a second, third or fourth shotgun paid €25 for the first shotgun & €6 for each shotgun thereafter.

A second shotgun under the old system would cost €18 for three years ....now it will cost €99.....a increase of €81 !!!!!!!!!! ........now if you have 2, 3, or 4 shotguns then that is one heck of an increase.

J.R.

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

---

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

chem

J.R. wrote: »

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

---

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

Minister wakes up the morning after the bill is passed. "Eh, I think pistols are to dangerous to have licenced in the community" All pistols banned. End of.

He will have that power if this bill is enacted as is

clivej

J.R. wrote: »

clivej wrote: »

Again any of the required acts are not signed in as yet BUT it would seem that all handgun licenses will not be renewed.

And again nothing is writen in stone yet.


AS far as I can make out handgun licences will be renewed if one has a valid reason but no new licences will be issued, except under exceptional circumstances.

J.R.
Please I know I'm out of my depth here on the handgun issue and I'll not comment on this anymore but please Don't shoot the messenger. And the FO was still not 100% sure of the current situation.