Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

crosstownk

I haven't voted in the poll.

Yes, the religious orders should pay more - a lot more as they were the ones that dished out this unthinkable abuse on poor defenseless children. They did it knowingly and without any consideration for the child's emotions not to mention the lack of regard for the long term effects this abuse had on the children that were confined to these institutions.

At the same time, the state had responsibility for certifying these institutions. It was also responsible for dealing with complaints and concerns raised. It failed miserably in this regard. As an example, take some time out to read Vol I-15 of the report on St. Conleths, Daingean.

So to my mind there are two parties responsible. That said, the orders were obviously responsible for the sadistic and sexual abuse that took place so they should bear the brunt of any compensation awards that are to follow.

Unfortunately, no money would ever be enough to compensate for the childhoods that have been stolen from so many individuals. Some left such institutions incapable of trusting or loving. The legacy that this has left behind will take a long time to wash out of society.

It's a shameful, shameful reflection on those that were entrusted with children's welfare - especially as the same people were purporting to be God's messengers.

Every monster who doled out this abuse that is still alive should do the honourable thing and own up. Stand up in public and admit to their sins. Let the justice system hand them their penance. But they won't because they were never followers of Christ in the first place. They are ba$tards.

Ultravid

Biggins wrote: »

Is there a saying that goes along the line "God helps those who help themselves" ? If we all just wait around for "IT" to happen, we better not hold our breaths too long.
So if the church or any organisation wants to help, they should get up off their knees, stop praying and actually call to those who are still suffering to do something more useful and physical and mentally productive!

Again, all stated with the greatest respect to you and your chosen faith.

Thanks. I don't mean we should just pray; actions are also needed. The orders should issue compensation to the utmost of their capabilities and abusers should, if possible, face criminal proceedings. I honestly don't think the Christian Brother's, as an order, has much of a future.

We must, and we are, as a Church, working towards ensuring that such things do not happen again. But poor leadership is a big problem, not just with this issue in the past, but many others in the present. I say this as a devout Catholic. Shepherds should shepherd. Good shepherds, modelled on Christ, look after their sheep, not send wolves among them. A major problem which allowed abuse to continue, was Bishops acting like managers of corporations, whereby the corporate image mattered more than child protection.

I believe satan hates the Church and he corrupted many within the Priesthood to turn so many people against the Church, and harm the moswt innocent members of the Church.

Clarification: Priests, like all of us mortals, can choose good or evil. But obviously priests, by the fact that they represent Christ, have a very special position of trust and such, and when this is betrayed, it is heinous. Satan obviously knows this. He is not stupid. He knew what this ciris would do to the Church. However he will not have the last word. I see a very bright future for the Church around the corner. We must cut out the dead and decaying wood in the meantime. Nature usually takes care of that, but we can help out.

the_dark_side

If you never do another thing, have a look at this short video... and give it a minute as the intro maybe a bit OTT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajCUE6oHkI

Acacia

Hrududu wrote: »

I'm also sick of these threads degenerating into religious debates. Any thread that pops up about this always gets derailed by posters arguing pointlessly with each other over whether or not God exists. And its always the same posters, with the same arguments. I just get sick of reading these points over and over again.

I agree. For once, I wish people would realize that some things are more important than winning some internet argument about the existence of God.

This thread is not about that.

It's about the abuse of thousands of children at the hands of the Church, aided by the State. An absolute disgrace and a national embarrassment.

The victims should be fully compensated and the religious orders involved should pay dearly for the lives they ruined. I only wish the rapists and other violent scumbags who hurt children up and down this country were alive today so they could be punished. Unfortunately most of them are dead now- they got off too easily.

Also, fair play to the guy in the Q&A video posted here for telling off the minister. It's outrageous that he was told he was 'lying' about the abuse he suffered. Disgrace. :mad:

Tha Gopher

CiaranC wrote: »

Have you read the report?

From what Ive heard it is about beatings, abuse, covered up suspicious deaths, starvation, government inaction, reports being ignored, problem preists being moved from parish to parish, essentially everything that has been in the public domain since when, about 1993 or so? I remember at least two documentaries, one on BBC and one on RTE, that went through the whole history of it. I doubt Bosnians are particularly shocked by anything they hear from the Hague tribunals, they heard/saw it all 15 years ago. Why is this so big now is what Im asking. Much of the compensation claims were settled long ago.

One of the funnier things I read here lately was someone enquiring how to go through a de baptism ceremony, because of what they read in this report. Fcuk sake, havent they read a newspaper in the previous 15 years? Laughable.

Carlow52 wrote: »

I was going to ask
To what country do you refer as u say u have been out of the country and then refer to back home.

Bu then I read you signature:

<"Politically correct" is a politically correct term meaning retarded. >

And all was revealed.

What?!!?

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

From what Ive heard it is about beatings, abuse, covered up suspicious deaths, starvation, government inaction, reports being ignored, problem preists being moved from parish to parish, essentially everything that has been in the public domain since when, about 1993 or so? I remember at least two documentaries, one on BBC and one on RTE, that went through the whole history of it. I doubt Bosnians are particularly shocked by anything they hear from the Hague tribunals, they heard/saw it all 15 years ago. Why is this so big now is what Im asking. Much of the compensation claims were settled long ago.

One of the funnier things I read here lately was someone enquiring how to go through a de baptism ceremony, because of what they read in this report. Fcuk sake, havent they read a newspaper in the previous 15 years? Laughable.



What?!!?

You see the difference is that we knew these things had happened but we didn't know that the government and the church knew so much & let it happen continuously while keeping it under raps. That is what angers me the most & I am close to being ashamed of being Irish because of it. Our people have a certain fúcking greediness about them & once things are going ok for for them they keep their mouth shut whatever the consequences.

How anyone can attack people for being angry about this now after the extra exposure is mind boggling. But meh, there is always one.

philologos

KaG: This is horrible, but I don't see why people have to blame those who adhere to it, and the belief system of Christianity itself because they are appalled what happened. They aren't related to the actual crimes themselves.

However, I still remain unconvinced as to whether much more abuse actually took outside the Catholic Church than actually within it. In this post I quote Christopher Hitchens saying that nonreligious organisations were involved in the same amount of abuse or worse than the Catholic Church and yet people haven't seemed to be publicising them to the same degree. Without intending to frustrate the discussion, would one be fair to say that the Catholic Church has been publicised the way it was because it was a religious organisation and the others weren't because they were non-religious?

Tha Gopher

Deleted User wrote: »

You see the difference is that we knew these things had happened but we didn't know that the government and the church knew so much & let it happen continuously while keeping it under raps.

ROFLBURGERS.

How anyone can attack people for being angry about this now after the extra exposure is mind boggling.

Wait......are you honestly telling me that until now you didnt realise that the Gardai and the government knew about this between circa 1940s and 1980s but did nothing because the church ruled the roost? That decent honest cops, doctors, social workers and inspectors who knew this was happening were either shouted down or threatened with dismissal? ROFL. The above has been common knowledge since the mid 90s, this report has nothing groundbreaking bar the government officially acknowledging it. I assume you watch so little news you are the type who would warn a friend going on holiday to Bosnia not to go because there is a war on there (Ive heard it in real life, I nearly split my sides). Some Irish people are so out of touch with current affairs it is embarrasing.

But meh, there is always one.

Always one what? Always one person who follows current affairs more than the average Joe?
If you want to insult me with that Ill take it as a compliment.

boards gets worse by the day, I already mentioned the depaptism thread.

"I hate the Catholic church. Catholic priests raped boys"....all good.

" I hate gays. Gay priests raped boys"....banned.


Both sweeping generalisations, neither of which I agree with, but only one of which is acceptable on AH. Hilarious (and Im not remotely religious)

Tha Gopher

Tha Gopher wrote: »

ROFLBURGERS.



Wait......are you honestly telling me that until now you didnt realise that the Gardai and the government knew about this between circa 1940s and 1980s but did nothing because the church ruled the roost? That decent honest cops, doctors, social workers and inspectors who knew this was happening were either shouted down or threatened with dismissal? ROFL. The above has been common knowledge since the mid 90s, this report has nothing groundbreaking bar the government officially acknowledging it. I assume you watch so little news you are the type who would warn a friend going on holiday to Bosnia not to go because there is a war on there (Ive heard it in real life, I nearly split my sides). Some Irish people are so out of touch with current affairs it is embarrasing.




Always one what? Always one person who follows current affairs more than the average Joe?
If you want to insult me with that Ill take it as a compliment.

boards gets worse by the day, I already mentioned the depaptism thread.

"I hate the Catholic church. Catholic priests raped boys"....all good.

" I hate gays. Gay priests raped boys"....banned.


Both sweeping generalisations, neither of which I agree with, but only one of which is acceptable on AH. Hilarious (and Im not remotely religious)

I am happy you're happy.

goldenbrown

Mariane Finucane (exasperated)'why don't you give them the whole 15 billion?'

(estimated total Irish congregation's wealth by Times newspaper rich list analyst)

Sister Maxwell (who lead cori deal dream team in 1999 with Minister Michael Woods (committed Catholic) ): 'well we might get to that point.....'


....progress

philologos

What 15 billion? By total wealth what do you mean, that's incredibly vague.

partyatmygaff

goldenbrown wrote: »

Mariane Finucane (exasperated)'why don't you give them the whole 15 billion?'

(estimated total Irish congregation's wealth by Times newspaper rich list analyst)

Sister Maxwell (who lead cori deal dream team in 1999 with Minister Michael Woods (committed Catholic) ): 'well we might get to that point.....'


....progress

What are you smoking man? Are you trying to say that all the money of the Irish catholic congregation should be given to the ones who were abused?
Are you seriously implying the whole catholic congregation should be punished as the result of a few religious orders AND non-religious orders poor member screening?


:rolleyes:

gimme5minutes

Jakkass wrote: »

I agree. As for give up all and follow me there is a controversy in Christianity concerning the meaning of that. Jesus says you cannot serve God and wealth and I agree. He also says that you cannot live by bread alone but from every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, however one must also live by bread. People also confuse the passage of the rich man to say that all Christians should give up all of their wealth, however in context, Jesus is saying because the man is rich, he should forsake his wealth and put God first.

Jesus says this, Jesus says that. Would you ever listen to yourself. Your beliefs are based on completely unproven fairy stories written two thousand years ago by guys from an organization who had a vested interest in promoting these stories. Luckily for them they were selling these stories to naive unenlightened peasants who hadn't a clue about the world they were living in. At least the peasants had an excuse for being naieve enough to believe it. Do you think these kind of stories would take hold today? Well actually they still do, if your target demographic is dumb/susceptible enough - look at all the idiots who bought into Scientology.

The guys who wrote these stories about Jesus stood to gain wealth and power just like all the people who have followed in their footsteps since. The christian organisation has gone on to amass massive wealth and control since the time of 'Jesus'.

BELIEFS..BELIEFS...(not facts)..BELIEFS....then they came up with a great method to deflect the obvious question of 'where's the proof for all this stuff?' Their answer - 'their is no proof, you just have to believe and have faith and you will be rewarded when you die'. There's no point in even trying to put forward evidence for the truth of this story as the religion itself acknowledges that 'faith' is what they require not proof.

You need to snap out of it, stop believing in superstitious nonsense and ditch this cult. If you were born in Iran, Jamaica or India you would be blindly following a completely different religion purely because of the circumstance of your birth. It's just a joke no matter how much you try to rationalize it.

Don't make the mistake of the 60+ year old priests who have dedicated their whole lives to an imaginary concept and are too far gone now to admit they were wrong and the thing they based their whole lives is not real.

luckat

partyatmygaff wrote: »

What are you smoking man? Are you trying to say that all the money of the Irish catholic congregation should be given to the ones who were abused?
Are you seriously implying the whole catholic congregation should be punished as the result of a few religious orders AND non-religious orders poor member screening?


:rolleyes:

Well, why not? Two thousand five hundred people gave evidence of torment, beatings, mental and physical cruelty, sexual abuse, rape, the deaths of children and other horrors perpetrated by the 8,000 people from 18 religious orders over 60 years.

The Catholic Church as an institution worked together to cover up this abuse, bully anyone who tried to expose it and protect the perpetrators.

Of course they should pay.

Apart from the sheer viciousness and murderousness of these people, there was the point that they were doing it for profit. From an article in Thursday's Monsters and Critics:

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/features/article_1479956.php/Anger_at_abuse_in_Ireland_turns_to_rows_over_payments__News_Feature__

Despite all of the hand-wringing, few have pointed out that the answer may lie in the simple economics outlined in the report.

According to the report, 'the capital and financial commitment made by the religious congregations' was a 'major factor' in prolonging the system of institutional care of children in the state.

Despite some Irish politicians' attempts to blame an industrial school system inherited from the time of British rule, the report points out that from 'the mid 1920s in England, smaller more family-like settings were established.'

These were viewed as 'providing a better standard of care for children in need.'

In Ireland, however, the 'industrial school system thrived.'

It did so, the report says because funding through capitation grants led to 'demands by managers for children to be committed to industrial schools for reasons of economic viability of the institutions.'

The more children that the religious orders crammed into their schools, the more money they received. It was in their financial interest to feed and clothe the children inadequately and to use them for forced labour. This practice yielded profits, which they funnelled into their other schools and properties.

The reason why they got away with systemic abuse of their charges was because of the 'deferential and submissive attitude' shown towards the congregrations by society in general and by the Department of Education in particular.

partyatmygaff

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Jesus says this, Jesus says that. Would you ever listen to yourself. Your beliefs are based on completely unproven fairy stories written two thousand years ago by guys from an organization who had a vested interest in promoting these stories. Luckily for them they were selling these stories to naive unenlightened peasants who hadn't a clue about the world they were living in. At least the peasants had an excuse for being naieve enough to believe it. Do you think these kind of stories would take hold today? Well actually they still do, if your target demographic is dumb/susceptible enough - look at all the idiots who bought into Scientology.

The guys who wrote these stories about Jesus stood to gain wealth and power just like all the people who have followed in their footsteps since. The christian organisation has gone on to amass massive wealth and control since the time of 'Jesus'.

BELIEFS..BELIEFS...(not facts)..BELIEFS....then they came up with a great method to deflect the obvious question of 'where's the proof for all this stuff?' Their answer - 'their is no proof, you just have to believe and have faith and you will be rewarded when you die'. There's no point in even trying to put forward evidence for the truth of this story as the religion itself acknowledges that 'faith' is what they require not proof.

You need to snap out of it, stop believing in superstitious nonsense and ditch this cult. If you were born in Iran, Jamaica or India you would be blindly following a completely different religion purely because of the circumstance of your birth. It's just a joke no matter how much you try to rationalize it.

Don't make the mistake of the 60+ year old priests who have dedicated their whole lives to an imaginary concept and are too far gone now to admit they were wrong and the thing they based their whole lives is not real.

Please study some facts about the religion you are attempting to "disprove":rolleyes: and then come back here and talk on topic.

We aren't discussing christianity, if you wan't to discuss that, the christianity forum is elsewhere.

This is for discussing the actions of about 800 of thousands of irish priests and many other non-religious abusers who abused their position.

Please for the sake of this thread, take it elsewhere.

partyatmygaff

luckat wrote: »

Well, why not? Two thousand five hundred people gave evidence of torment, beatings, mental and physical cruelty, sexual abuse, rape, the deaths of children and other horrors perpetrated by the 8,000 people from 18 religious orders over 60 years.

The Catholic Church as an institution worked together to cover up this abuse, bully anyone who tried to expose it and protect the perpetrators.

Of course they should pay.

Your changing your words, you said the congregation should pay.
Congregation means ordinary lay people of the church of this generation. Now unless you are contemplating stripping all of the money of innocent followers of a faith while conveiniently ignoring the actual abusers to make matters right, Im sorry but nobody in their right mind could agree to that.

I am pretty sure like it or not the entire church were not involved in this abuse, I'm sure this is not what you want to hear though so lets just leave it at that.

philologos

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Jesus says this, Jesus says that. Would you ever listen to yourself. Your beliefs are based on completely unproven fairy stories written two thousand years ago by guys from an organization who had a vested interest in promoting these stories. Luckily for them they were selling these stories to naive unenlightened peasants who hadn't a clue about the world they were living in. At least the peasants had an excuse for being naieve enough to believe it. Do you think these kind of stories would take hold today? Well actually they still do, if your target demographic is dumb/susceptible enough - look at all the idiots who bought into Scientology.

My beliefs are based on the word of an amazing testimony to the power of God in the lives of human beings relating to their creator, and to the passion of Jesus Christ . Look, I'm sorry that you are taking offence to my beliefs, however, I was replying to Wibbs concerning Jesus' teachings about poverty. If you wouldn't mind reading the context of my replies it would give you a bit of perspective into my position.

"Vested interest" - Hm, what vested interests would a group of fishermen who gave up absolutely everything in their lives to follow Jesus have? Just curious? What conspiracy theory can we spin from this today

Naiive peasants who hadn't a clue about the world they lived in? People who have written some of the most enlightened material in relation to humanity and the world hadn't a clue? I'm really wondering how much of the Bible have you actually read?

It's funny that you attack the Bible, and the witness of Jesus Christ when it is the witness of Jesus Christ which could actually offer us the best perspective on these abuses. Just look at the interaction between Jesus and the Pharisees and replace some of the religious orders in their place, or whoever you think has become corrupt in the day.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

The guys who wrote these stories about Jesus stood to gain wealth and power just like all the people who have followed in their footsteps since. The christian organisation has gone on to amass massive wealth and control since the time of 'Jesus'.

This isn't the truth. For the first 300 years of the Gospel the Christians were fed to lions, persecuted for party humour, crucified, stoned to death, killed for their beliefs. It was hardly a desirable thing to propogate. The Apostles were all martyred as far as I can recall. Does that sounds like a desirable thing to do with your life?

gimme5minutes wrote: »

BELIEFS..BELIEFS...(not facts)..BELIEFS....then they came up with a great method to deflect the obvious question of 'where's the proof for all this stuff?' Their answer - 'their is no proof, you just have to believe and have faith and you will be rewarded when you die'. There's no point in even trying to put forward evidence for the truth of this story as the religion itself acknowledges that 'faith' is what they require not proof.

Read what the reply to Wibbs was about. It was about Christian teachings concerning poverty. I replied based on those teachings and what Jesus was recorded to have said in the accounts that the Christians hold authoritative about Jesus Christ

As for proof, I've already explained that enough on this thread. Neither side has absolute proof in this debate, and I never claimed that I had. I do have indication for what I believe however. This is the best we can do, atheists can give their indications and reasons for why they think God doesn't exist, and Christians can give their indications and reasons for why they think that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and why they think that God exists.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

You need to snap out of it, stop believing in superstitious nonsense and ditch this cult. If you were born in Iran, Jamaica or India you would be blindly following a completely different religion purely because of the circumstance of your birth. It's just a joke no matter how much you try to rationalize it.

I don't need to do anything!

I have freedom of conscience and freedom of religion in Ireland! I love Christianity and it's done wonderful things in my life, why should I lose it?

As for the "what if you were born somewhere else argument". It's ridiculous as people have converted to Christianity in all of these countries. I've seen people from countries all over the world who are Christians, and there is strong missionary activity all over the world currently even in countries where Christianity is illegal. I have no reason to believe that I wouldn't have the opportunity to accept Christianity anywhere in the world.

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Don't make the mistake of the 60+ year old priests who have dedicated their whole lives to an imaginary concept and are too far gone now to admit they were wrong and the thing they based their whole lives is not real.

These priests who carried out abuse dedicated their lives to abuse and corruption which seem more satanic than Christian. They have their whole lives to come to terms with what they did and to bear the guilt.

I believe Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and I think I'll be taking that to the grave with me

luckat

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Your changing your words, you said the congregation should pay.
Congregation means ordinary lay people of the church of this generation. Now unless you are contemplating stripping all of the money of innocent followers of a faith while conveiniently ignoring the actual abusers to make matters right, Im sorry but nobody in their right mind could agree to that.

I am pretty sure like it or not the entire church were not involved in this abuse, I'm sure this is not what you want to hear though so lets just leave it at that.

I did not say the congregation should pay. I said the church should pay. I say the church should pay. I say the church will pay, even if this means the Criminal Assets Bureau confiscating its lands.

Carlow52

can we please stick to the topic and debate all the 'God stuff' elsewhere

Wibbs

Jakkass wrote: »

This isn't the truth. For the first 300 years of the Gospel the Christians were fed to lions, persecuted for party humour, crucified, stoned to death, killed for their beliefs. It was hardly a desirable thing to propogate. The Apostles were all martyred as far as I can recall. Does that sounds like a desirable thing to do with your life

I agree. But the moment it became the state religion of the roman empire, that changed and it very rapidly became an imperial economic and military arm of the state. They changed the nature and the organisation of the church itself. It became less Jewish Jesus and more Paulian Jesus for a start. Womens earlier central role, which was amazing for the time was massively reduced for a start. Witness the recent discoveries(in turkey I think??) where an early woman preacher of the faith(whose name escapes) is given a more important role and bigger portrait than Paul. Women were reduced to whores, mothers or virgins, a quite roman notion of womanhood. Even the idea of an unmarried clergy was largely down to keeping the money in the church as kids had claim rights on land and assets. It isn't called the roman catholic church for fun. Indeed regardless of one's personal feelings or faith towards Jesus, I think most would agree that the irony would not have been lost on him.

And I think all of the above is on topic. When you have a strongly self protecting organisation that is designed like that, with men with no sexual outlet, many essentially forced into being a priest, especially in ireland where every family was expected to have one and this level of abuse is not surprising. Indeed it was to be expected.

philologos

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree. But the moment it became the state religion of the roman empire, that changed and it very rapidly became an imperial economic and military arm of the state.

I agree with this much.

Wibbs wrote: »

They changed the nature and the organisation of the church itself. It became less Jewish Jesus and more Paulian Jesus for a start.

I don't see the difference between Jesus in Pauline theology and in the Gospels. Both were the same in my view, and Paul even directly quotes from instances in the Gospels in quite a lot of his work. I wouldn't be so harsh on Paul, he was quite the man

Wibbs wrote: »

Womens earlier central role, which was amazing for the time was massively reduced for a start. Witness the recent discoveries(in turkey I think??) where an early woman preacher of the faith(whose name escapes) is given a more important role and bigger portrait than Paul.

I agree with you in part here. Women had a huge role in the church in the first century and in many of the Pauline letters Paul thanks God for the contribution of the women in the church. Couples even shared the Gospel together, Priscilla and Aquilla being the prime example of this. As for them being more important than Paul, I don't think that this is a contest, and I don't think it could be true given the clear lack of literature to suggest so.

Wibbs wrote: »

Women were reduced to whores, mothers or virgins, a quite roman notion of womanhood. Even the idea of an unmarried clergy was largely down to keeping the money in the church as kids had claim rights on land and assets. It isn't called the roman catholic church for fun. Indeed regardless of one's personal feelings or faith towards Jesus, I think most would agree that the irony would not have been lost on him.

Now, heres the controversial bit that needs a bit of clearing up

Women were reduced to whores in general? I'm not sure if this could be said. I do think that Pope Gregory's notion that Mary Magdalene was a whore without any real textual evidence in the 6th century was highly damaging in the Western world, considering that in the Eastern Orthodox Church she is regarded as the "Apostle to the Apostles" because she was the first to see Jesus raised from the dead.

Celibacy in Catholicism as a practice is one I have a hard time dealing with in comparison to Christianity. There seems to be a huge contradiction between the Biblical text (1 Timothy, Titus) and Catholic commands to celibacy which originate from the 4th century AD. One says that priests should only be married once, the latter says they shouldn't be married at all. Judaism also holds the practice whereby priests should be married (Exodus) as long as they are virgins. It just doesn't seem consistent to me.

I don't see how having children would somehow entitle them to assets of the church. If that were the case Protestantism would have collapsed by now

Wibbs wrote: »

And I think all of the above is on topic. When you have a strongly self protecting organisation that is designed like that, with men with no sexual outlet, many essentially forced into being a priest, especially in ireland where every family was expected to have one and this level of abuse is not surprising. Indeed it was to be expected.

I agree entirely

luckat

I see the Indo has a piece about the sacking of Fr Kevin Hegarty as editor of an influential Irish Catholic journal in 1994.

When he published an article on clerical sex abuse, the majority of Irish bishops voted for him to be sacked.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bishops-gave-editor-sack-over-articles-on-sex-abuse-1764670.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/o43uvx

The article says, in part:

At the time Bishop Brendan Comiskey was chairman of the Bishop's Commission for Communications and, effectively, Fr [Kevin] Hegarty's boss. Comiskey resigned in 2002 -- the first Irish Catholic bishop ever to do so -- over his role in the handling the many complaints of sexual abuse by several priests in his Ferns Diocese.

Fr Hegarty said last week: "The efforts to cover up clerical sexual abuse were in one sense disturbing. I joined (Intercom) in June 1991 and when I began raising questions like clerical sexual abuse and questioning compulsory celibacy and the issue of women priests I began to experience questioning from various bishops."

He said he was told that an editorial committee was being set up to oversee the material published in Intercom and that the 34 bishops were being surveyed for their opinions on the magazine. "That report was in June 1994 and they said that the material was damaging or undermining morale."

Fr Hegarty was asked to put forward names for the editorial committee. "I had no problem with having an editorial committee, in fact, it could be a good thing. I was asked to suggest names and I did. None of those named by me appeared."

He was sacked by the bishops in late 1994

and later it goes on to reference the Ryan Commission report, and quote from an article by Fr Kevin Hegarty on it:

In sober prose and with cumulative detail the Ryan report reveals a dark hinterland which we have failed to acknowledge or name until now. There were over 800 known abusers in over 200 institutions during a period of 35 years.

"The adjectives used in the report are stark and compelling. Abuse was systemic, pervasive, chronic, excessive, arbitrary and endemic. Abuse was not a failure of the system. Abuse was the system."

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

Women were reduced to whores in general? I'm not sure if this could be said.

He said "whores, mothers or virgins"

luckat

Panorama did a 40-minute programme a few years back on the Vatican and clerical sexual abuse. It's viewable on Google Video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9216902699740163930&ei=PnorStiyJYSE-QaXvsy2CQ&q=sex+crimes+and+the+vatican&dur=3

or in parts on Youtube

and follow on to parts 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6

luckat

Panorama did a 40-minute programme a few years back on the Vatican and clerical sexual abuse. It's viewable on Google Video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9216902699740163930&ei=PnorStiyJYSE-QaXvsy2CQ&q=sex+crimes+and+the+vatican&dur=3

Yasmine

I agree that what happend to victims in the care of the catholic church is awfull its just sad that these people are only getting heard 40 years on. Im also very annoyed about the hype over it yes it was awfull but what about the abuse that is going on TODAY in the care homes run by the HSE if Barnodos, the Guards and the HSE and all are so helpfull now why didnt they help me 2 years ago when I told them i was being mentally, physically and almost sexually abused when I was in a care home in Dublin run by the Hse. Its sad to think its still going on today but it will come ot in another 40 years and then everyone will help after the damage has been done to me and many others. THE ABUSE IS STILL GOING ON TODAY IN CARE HOMES FOR CHILDREN RUN BY THE HSE..................................

treasher

I am so sorry Yasmin to hear of the treatment that you received when you needed love the most. No child anywhere any time should have to suffer abuse from any adult. Children shoud not have to go into a care home in the first place, a traumitic enough event without having to suffer abuse. As well as seeking justice for the abused we need to make sure that it never happens again in the future. But unfortunately I am not sure it won't. If there are parents in the world who do not live up to their responsibility, how can we trust strangers to do so, certainly not without being heavily monitored.
The Jews have a motto about the holocost, "Lest we forget" which would be a good motto to keep us aware of the vulnerability of people in care - of all ages.
treasher

Yasmine

I agree it will happen again the government and HSE are all corrupt in my opionion it may sound harsh but its true. I put in more complaint about the abuse I was getting from SOCIAL 'CARE' WORKERS on a daily basis. And it went to the manager of the 'care' home my social worker the area manager and each time they said I was lying and social CARE workers would never do anything like that???? And it all got brushed under the carpet like what happend to the them poor children and if they told someone theyd get the same response as me oh priests wouldt do things like that. It makes me pure sick to my stomach that its just history repeating itself and the government will never control these enviornment that children and also the elderly live in. My motto is if it was you a friend, your child or family member what way would you treat them in a care home?
And whats more annoying that the people of the institutional abuse will never get justice

patrickthomas

I just read the Ryan report over the weekend.......................

I also checked statistics from all over the world as well.

It has left me with only one conclusion, All of the Clergy knew this was going on for a very long time. I would have thought before this that it was just a few bad eggs but now I know that that they all knew, all of the priests and all of the Bishops have known for decades.

I have always had respect for peoples beliefs but now I really look twice at anyone who attends church and am dismayed at anyone who supports the church financially.

I now look on people who attend mass with serious reservations about their "Christianity"

This is an absolute disgrace and there is another report on its way, already sitting on government desks as I write this, how many times must we see this........???

I could go on but........:(

philologos

luckat wrote: »

Panorama did a 40-minute programme a few years back on the Vatican and clerical sexual abuse. It's viewable on Google Video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9216902699740163930&ei=PnorStiyJYSE-QaXvsy2CQ&q=sex+crimes+and+the+vatican&dur=3

I watched this whole documentary. Thanks a lot, it really makes things more clear.

I still do not think that these actions however horrific they are are representative of all the priests who have served in Catholicism, and I think it would be unfair to say so. However, the suffering and the abuse is quite frankly horrific and I am appalled at the Vatican involvement.

Blaming adherents and congregants of the Catholic Church is also grossly unfair, considering they had nothing to do with the abuse.

I'm going to take a different approach in my criticisms. The Catholic Church should be criticised about this, and we should help the church to change it's ways, put effective child abuse measures in place and make sure that this never happens again. Getting behind the Catholic Church for change, rather than expecting the majority of Catholics, and priests who were not involved to just forget their faith is the way foward.

uprising

The roman catholic church is one of the most evil establishments to ever exist. I watched a program on RTE Primetime a few years ago about Ferns and the vatican, I wasn't surprised by the revelations. The popes rotweiler josef ratzinger or whatever his name is, the current pope, wrote a secret doctrine for every RC bishop in the world, about 1970, could be wrong on the date?, which was to be kept locked in a safe and followed strictly in the case of a sexual abuse complaint being made against clergy, if it wasn't followed bishops faced excomunication.
The details of this document ordered bishops to transfer the guilty party to a different diocese, to obstruct any form of investigation, not to co-operate with authorities who may or may not investigate such claims. This is the fucckig current pope of over a billion believers. Another bishop actually went as far as to say satanic rituals were being carried out inside the vatican, google it, its there, the black bishop, I forget his name.
But just look back and think of the pure evil these baastards have inflcted on the people of Ireland and the world, and they say the romans never conquered Ireland?.
On a slightly off topic note, this vatican is claiming to represent God, the God of the Bible, yet in st peters square there is an egyptian obilisk, an ancient Egyptian symbol to their sun god raa, now being the representitives of God shouldn't they consider this an abomination and destroy it, not ship it from egypt and set it up right in the centre of the vatican. I always found that strange.

Anyway the roman catholic church are a pack of child abusing perverts, that reaches the very top, I believe they are truly evil people, not all mind you, a lot of priests have been decieved, but an awful lot more shut their mouths while they knew of and participated in obscene child sexual abuse.

Then the fuccking holy ones taking young girls babies from them not too long ago and selling them to rich americans, because the girl happened to be single and Irish. Using the girls for slave labour, and all this wasn't all that long ago.
I wonder what these bastaards are up to now in developing countries right now, on their missions.

EDIT: sorry the video already posted is the one I was referring to, posted after reading OP only, and got my programs mixd up.

patrickthomas

Jakkass wrote: »

I watched this whole documentary. Thanks a lot, it really makes things more clear.

I still do not think that these actions however horrific they are are representative of all the priests who have served in Catholicism, and I think it would be unfair to say so. However, the suffering and the abuse is quite frankly horrific and I am appalled at the Vatican involvement.

Blaming adherents and congregants of the Catholic Church is also grossly unfair, considering they had nothing to do with the abuse.

I'm going to take a different approach in my criticisms. The Catholic Church should be criticised about this, and we should help the church to change it's ways, put effective child abuse measures in place and make sure that this never happens again. Getting behind the Catholic Church for change, rather than expecting the majority of Catholics, and priests who were not involved to just forget their faith is the way foward.

All of the Bishops knew it was going on for decades, they were sent out letters from the Vatican instructing them to swear the victims and the perpetrators to silence. All or certainly 90% of the priests knew it was going on and did sfa.

100% of the people who support the present church know what happened. And what's more, there is as yet another un-released report. The people who support the church are supporting a corrupt and evil empire. It has been from it's beginnings right through to now.

Pope Boniface II had children by his wife, his sister and his daughter and put 20,000 men, women and children to the sword in one afternoon of his illustrious career.

And that is just a small snippet of the atrocities that this religion has done.

I am now ashamed that i would once have been considered Catholic and I will never attend a mass again as long as I live.

patrickthomas

uprising wrote: »

The roman catholic church is one of the most evil establishments to ever exist. I watched a program on RTE Primetime a few years ago about Ferns and the vatican, I wasn't surprised by the revelations. The popes rotweiler josef ratzinger or whatever his name is, the current pope, wrote a secret doctrine for every RC bishop in the world, about 1970, could be wrong on the date?, which was to be kept locked in a safe and followed strictly in the case of a sexual abuse complaint being made against clergy, if it wasn't followed bishops faced excomunication.
The details of this document ordered bishops to transfer the guilty party to a different diocese, to obstruct any form of investigation, not to co-operate with authorities who may or may not investigate such claims. This is the fucckig current pope of over a billion believers. Another bishop actually went as far as to say satanic rituals were being carried out inside the vatican, google it, its there, the black bishop, I forget his name.
But just look back and think of the pure evil these baastards have inflcted on the people of Ireland and the world, and they say the romans never conquered Ireland?.
On a slightly off topic note, this vatican is claiming to represent God, the God of the Bible, yet in st peters square there is an egyptian obilisk, an ancient Egyptian symbol to their sun god raa, now being the representitives of God shouldn't they consider this an abomination and destroy it, not ship it from egypt and set it up right in the centre of the vatican. I always found that strange.

Anyway the roman catholic church are a pack of child abusing perverts, that reaches the very top, I believe they are truly evil people, not all mind you, a lot of priests have been decieved, but an awful lot more shut their mouths while they knew of and participated in obscene child sexual abuse.

Then the fuccking holy ones taking young girls babies from them not too long ago and selling them to rich americans, because the girl happened to be single and Irish. Using the girls for slave labour, and all this wasn't all that long ago.
I wonder what these bastaards are up to now in developing countries right now, on their missions.

I know and there is more on the way when that ass of a government get back from their holidays, it is already on their desks and it is more of the same.....again. How much of this do people have to see before they realise the church is rotten to it's core and beyond. I want nothing to do with anyone who is a church-goer anymore, I read the Ryan report and did some research over the long weekend and I am still fuming :mad:

philologos

patrickthomas wrote: »

All of the Bishops knew it was going on for decades, they were sent out letters from the Vatican instructing them to swear the victims and the perpetrators to silence. All or certainly 90% of the priests knew it was going on and did sfa.

You also claimed that all priests knew, I don't think that is accurate. Mind you I need back up on both of these claims.

patrickthomas wrote: »

100% of the people who support the present church know what happened. And what's more, there is as yet another un-released report. The people who support the church are supporting a corrupt and evil empire. It has been from it's beginnings right through to now.

Most of the Catholics who are still in the Catholic Church from what friends I have discussed with are completely opposed to the abuse, but have the common sense to realise that a majority of priests weren't abusers and had good will towards the people. The minority of priests who actively perpetrated these vile acts are just that a minority. There is still much to be reclaimed from the Catholic Church and critics need to be there to promote change in this to ensure that it never happens again.

As for corrupt from it's beginnings right through to now, that is highly debatable. I'm not a Catholic myself, but I disagree with you outright that the Catholic Church has not promoted a lot of good in the world.

patrickthomas wrote: »

Pope Boniface II had children by his wife, his sister and his daughter and put 20,000 men, women and children to the sword in one afternoon of his illustrious career.

Citation.

patrickthomas wrote: »

And that is just a small snippet of the atrocities that this religion has done.

Yes, and one could also give a rather elaborate list of what good the Catholic Church has done with a bit of research. I think the Catholic Church are to be criticised, and that reform and change should be promoted, but to seek it's destruction is another matter altogether.

patrickthomas wrote: »

I am now ashamed that i would once have been considered Catholic and I will never attend a mass again as long as I live.

It's fine for you to make your own choices about what you want to observe. However, it is another to suggest that people who go to church in a Catholic Church are wrong to exercise their freedom of religion.

patrickthomas

Jakkass wrote: »

You also claimed that all priests knew, I don't think that is accurate. Mind you I need back up on both of these claims..

Rev. Joseph J. Guido, a psychology professor at Providence College, surveyed superiors of a Catholic religious order and found that 83 percent of the North American superiors reported being aware of an accusation of sexual abuse against one or more of their priests.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+vatican&dur=3

Jakkass wrote: »

I watched this whole documentary. Thanks a lot, it really makes things more clear.

The document (Crime of solicitation) I referred to was covered in this documentary.

You did not watch the documentary, or did you? either way you are a liar.

And that is as far as I will take this discussion with you as you demand citations for what is already common knowledge, lie and put words in my mouth so as to cloud and confuse the issue.

A clever ploy of one who is well used to arguing on a forum and I for one am not going to fall for it. In fact I do not wish to discuss this with anyone who shows support for the Catholic church at all.

I find it disgusting that you would even try.................:mad:

I suggest that you spend a lot more time reading and looking at what people post as in the video that Lucat posted that you say made things clear.............obviously not clear enough.

Empty vessels.......................

uprising

Jakkass wrote: »

As for corrupt from it's beginnings right through to now, that is highly debatable. I'm not a Catholic myself, but I disagree with you outright that the Catholic Church has not promoted a lot of good in the world.

It's fine for you to make your own choices about what you want to observe. However, it is another to suggest that people who go to church in a Catholic Church are wrong to exercise their freedom of religion.

Jakkass I dont want to turn this into a religious debate, but the catholic church should actually read the big book in front of them.

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color (official Vatican colors), and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (the Vatican is filthy rich), having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations (the Holocaust, inquisitions, etc.) and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY (very few people realise where the Catholic religion started),BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (who seduce people into their damnable religion) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” —Revelation 17:4,5

“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN...that they may provoke me to anger” —Jeremiah 7:18
mary queen of heaven?

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,neither my praise to graven images." —Isaiah 42:8
This I take it means God doesn't permit prayers to Jesus, mary, joseph, st this or st that, the pope etc.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" —Exodus 20:4
This means they shouldn't make statues of anything.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5
That means you should not bow down or kneel before them, something that seems to have gone over the catholics heads.

I believe all religions are corrupted, mohammed studied under a jesuit before forming Islam.
25th December is an ancient pagan black mass day.
Jesus and Mary , the mother and child are a continuation of isis and osirus.
The new testament was written between 70 and 200 years after Jesus death.

Nodin

uprising wrote: »

I believe all religions are corrupted, mohammed studied under a jesuit before forming Islam.
.

The Jesuit order was founded in 1534. Mohammed died around 632. Unless one or the other has time travel......

treasher

To be told that you are liying about something like this is shocking. Have we learned nothing from the past! Keep fighting for justice for yourself. when you fight for justice for yourself you help others too. The truth has to come out, there can be no healing without it.
Best regards, Treasher.

Sonderval

I can't say I admire the drive to 'reform' the church - sometimes, you gotta step back and realize that some things just cannot be fixed in any worthwhile way.

Its a harsh reality, but the church is morally compromised - not only through our generation, but over the preceeding centuries of history.

That people cannot imagine congregating together for prayer to whatever diety they believe in without giving huge swathes of moral authority and power to others while doing so is pretty telling (and not a little sheepish).

We were all given the ability to think critically - such a shame most of us are in a rush to offload that burdensome talent on others.

patrickthomas

Sonderval wrote: »

I can't say I admire the drive to 'reform' the church - sometimes, you gotta step back and realize that some things just cannot be fixed in any worthwhile way.

Its a harsh reality, but the church is morally compromised - not only through our generation, but over the preceeding centuries of history.

That people cannot imagine congregating together for prayer to whatever diety they believe in without giving huge swathes of moral authority and power to others while doing so is pretty telling (and not a little sheepish).

We were all given the ability to think critically - such a shame most of us are in a rush to offload that burdensome talent on others.

The history of the Church has shown that it never "reforms" It forms a separate branch of what it was. Until the people in the church demand change, nothing will change.

philologos

uprising wrote: »

25th December is an ancient pagan black mass day.
Jesus and Mary , the mother and child are a continuation of isis and osirus.
The new testament was written between 70 and 200 years after Jesus death.

1. I have no problem accepting that the 25th was formerly a pagan festival reclaimed by Charlemagne in 800AD. We don't know exactly when Jesus was born, many experts suggest that it was in Autumn near the time of Rosh Hashanah.

2. You've been watching too much Zeitgeist. The claims about Horus, Osiris, Mithra etc have well and truly been refuted.

3. The last book of the New Testament was written circa 90AD (The Gospel of John). The first book of the New Testament was written in 55AD (1 Corinthians).

philologos

patrickthomas wrote: »

Rev. Joseph J. Guido, a psychology professor at Providence College, surveyed superiors of a Catholic religious order and found that 83 percent of the North American superiors reported being aware of an accusation of sexual abuse against one or more of their priests.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+vatican&dur=3

Limited to the United States alone. Of course that is worthy of condemnation. By "superiors" that only refers to bishops, not to all the clergy may I also add.

patrickthomas wrote: »

The document (Crime of solicitation) I referred to was covered in this documentary.

I'm aware. I've condemned the Vatican on this thread.

patrickthomas wrote: »

You did not watch the documentary, or did you? either way you are a liar.

I watched all 40 minutes. You can call me a liar if you want. I personally would consider it deceptive on your part to make out as if the whole Catholic Church is wrong based on a minority of priests.

patrickthomas wrote: »

And that is as far as I will take this discussion with you as you demand citations for what is already common knowledge, lie and put words in my mouth so as to cloud and confuse the issue.

I demand citations for you to back up your claims and to be intellectually honest when you are making such severe accusations.

patrickthomas wrote: »

A clever ploy of one who is well used to arguing on a forum and I for one am not going to fall for it. In fact I do not wish to discuss this with anyone who shows support for the Catholic church at all.

What bias. You don't want to discuss with someone who doesn't share your opinion. Get real. That's what people call being closed minded.

Bear in mind, I am a member of the Church of Ireland, but I think the criticism of the Catholic Church needs to be dealt with in a constructive manner one that is aimed at changing and reforming the Catholic Church rather than destroying it altogether.

patrickthomas wrote: »

I find it disgusting that you would even try.................:mad:

Try to be honest and fair? We must have different versions of what is "disgusting" then.

patrickthomas wrote: »

I suggest that you spend a lot more time reading and looking at what people post as in the video that Lucat posted that you say made things clear.............obviously not clear enough.

It's perfectly clear to me. The Vatican and the Catholic Church need to make serious changes. People need to be brought to justice. However to say that all priests were abusers, and to say that the Catholic Church has not done any good is fiction. Pure fiction.

I will continue to be with my Catholic friends and to let them know that although what happened was atrocious that they have a real chance to change the church and reform it to the New Testament intention of Jesus Christ.

patrickthomas wrote: »

Empty vessels.......................

Ad hominem.

You wish to demonise practicing Catholics for their faith, I seek to put the record straight and say that all practicing Catholics are entirely welcome to worship as they please in a free society. Just as I as someone of a Protestant denomination have the right to worship as I please in a free society.

Sonderval

The claims about Horus, Osiris, Mithra etc have well and truly been refuted

Not in my estimation* - I have done some proper research into this from the primary sources (papers) covering the topic.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58198719&postcount=40

Here is my post with the references I digged up and my 'best of' interpretation of the facts around Mithras.

*I havent had a good look at the Horus/Isis connection.

philologos

Sonderval wrote: »

Not in my estimation* - I have done some proper research into this from the primary sources (papers) covering the topic.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58198719&postcount=40

Here is my post with the references I digged up and my 'best of' interpretation of the facts around Mithras.

*I havent had a good look at the Horus/Isis connection.

Considering that the most recent texts of Mithraism we have post date the New Testament, it is just as likely that they were plagiarised from Christianity. Indeed Justin the Martyr in his writings criticised those who followed Mithraism for plagiarising from the Christian faith.

Evaluation of the relationship of early Christianity with Mithraism has traditionally been based on the polemical testimonies of the 2nd century Church fathers, such as Justin's accusations that the Mithraists were diabolically imitating the Christians

Tertullian also made this same claim.

I suggest looking up the documentary "Zeitgeist Refuted" on Google Video.

It's more a case of people hearing what they want to be true, than actually pursuing what is true.

Nodin

Missed this earlier.....

uprising wrote: »

25th December is an ancient pagan black mass day.
.

It can't be an "ancient pagan black mass" as the "pagans" predate christianity, and the black mass is supposed to be a perversion of the christian rite.

It was a "pagan" festival yes, but thats a horse of an entirely different colour.

patrickthomas

Jakkass wrote: »

Just as I as someone of a Protestant denomination have the right to worship as I please in a free society.

I don't care if you worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you read and read and write what you read without a whole lot of thinking about it or any serious inquiry into it.

I have no interest in debating theology with you as you have a closed mind and with 6,000+ posts you obviously like the sound of your own words.

Jaysus I can hear the bible thumping from here....you even thump on the boards:D

philologos

patrickthomas wrote: »

I don't care if you worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you read and read and write what you read without a whole lot of thinking about it or any serious inquiry into it.

I have no interest in debating theology with you as you have a closed mind and with 6,000+ posts you obviously like the sound of your own words.

Jaysus I can hear the bible thumping from here....you even thump on the boards:D

I'm not thumping anything, I recognise free choice of religion. You don't.

If anyone has been thumping and peddling anything it has been you and your anti-Catholicism.

As for closed mind didn't you just say a minute ago:

patrickthomas wrote:

A clever ploy of one who is well used to arguing on a forum and I for one am not going to fall for it. In fact I do not wish to discuss this with anyone who shows support for the Catholic church at all.

If that isn't closed minded I don't know what is!

Sonderval

Considering that the most recent texts of Mithraism we have post date the New Testament, it is just as likely that they were plagiarised from Christianity. Indeed Justin the Martyr in his writings criticised those who followed Mithraism for plagiarising from the Christian faith.

Possibly, but its a glass half full/half empty situation then - which interpretation do you subscribe to? That christians plagiarized the from the successful Mithraic cult on its arrival into Rome, or that the mithras worshippers stole from the christians (who later made an effort to badmouth them - history written by the victors, etc)?

I'd urge those who want a proper answer on these questions to read the papers I cited if they can.

philologos

Sonderval wrote: »

Possibly, but its a glass half full/half empty situation then - which interpretation do you subscribe to? That christians plagiarized the from the successful Mithraic cult on its arrival into Rome, or that the mithras worshippers stole from the christians (who later made an effort to badmouth them - history written by the victors, etc)

Due to the dating of the texts I would have to subscribe to the view of Tertullian and Justin the Martyr.

As for the Mithraic cult being successful in Rome, Christianity first prospered in Judea, Asia Minor and Greece. I mean if you could demonstrably find me a text dated before 55AD with Mithraism proclaiming Christian beliefs, I'd be all ears.

Sonderval

You really need to read those papers, Jakkass.