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Libertas are now friends of Immigrants?? but not Turkey

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24

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    #32
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    View wrote: »
    Personally, I'm puzzled how you seem to be of the opinion that this will lead us all to "see what facism means". Is this a case of "Democracy = Facism" or something like that?

    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary. I wonder if they run another referendum it they get a YES. Guess not.
    Is this a democracy in your opinion?


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    #33
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    adr wrote: »
    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary. I wonder if they run another referendum it they get a YES. Guess not.
    Is this a democracy in your opinion?

    Given most people didn't know what they were voting on the first time I'd say yeah given them a chance to get informed and vote again is democratic and in the spirit of what we want Ireland to be.

    The government ran an appalling campaign and used it as an opportunity to put pictures of themselves up rather than promoting the actual treaty.

    Ganley was on the news tonight and all he could do was attack the other parties.


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    #34
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    adr wrote: »
    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary. I wonder if they run another referendum it they get a YES. Guess not.
    Is this a democracy in your opinion?

    Well, yes, up to a point. It's the way our democracy is structured - the government poses referendum questions. We don't seem to have had much pressure to allow for referendums by petition, and there doesn't seem to be much appetite for electing an anti-EU government.

    As to "again and again" - I doubt it. There's a precedent for a second referendum - Nice - but a second No would presumably mean that the people are not for turning, which would make subsequent referendums pointless.

    If the people return a Yes at the next referendum, would you consider that as less valid than the original answer, and if so, how?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #35
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    thebman wrote: »
    Given most people didn't know what they were voting on the first time I'd say yeah given them a chance to get informed and vote again is democratic and in the spirit of what we want Ireland to be.

    The government ran an appalling campaign and used it as an opportunity to put pictures of themselves up rather than promoting the actual treaty.

    Ganley was on the news tonight and all he could do was attack the other parties.

    Yeah, I'm sure they will be equally concerned with people's understanding of the Treaty when they get a YES result...


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    #36
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    adr wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm sure they will be equally concerned with people's understanding of the Treaty when they get a YES result...

    I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

    If they get the result they want they won't care, why would they? They didn't get the answer they wanted, they checked the reasons for it and decided to try again and educate the people that didn't understand the question which seemed to be the main reason for voting no.

    That is only logical IMO. Almost every party in the country is in favor of Lisbon so it makes sense to ask the people again if they didn't understand as almost all parties are in favor of asking again and the people can still vote no if they still disagree.


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    #37
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    Was Fine Gael's first leader not one Eoin O'Duffy the blueshirt facist?

    No, the Blueshirts were way more complicated than to be labeled merely as fascists.
    Keep in mind I'm far from a Fine Gael supported but the Blueshirts were pro democracy.
    Authortarian, nationalist, anti communist and pro-Catholic. But pro-democracy.


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    #38
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    thebman wrote: »
    I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

    If they get the result they want they won't care, why would they? They didn't get the answer they wanted, they checked the reasons for it and decided to try again and educate the people that didn't understand the question which seemed to be the main reason for voting no.

    That is only logical IMO. Almost every party in the country is in favor of Lisbon so it makes sense to ask the people again if they didn't understand as almost all parties are in favor of asking again and the people can still vote no if they still disagree.

    True - it's not a coin-toss. The government has a definite policy, and wants a particular answer - they're not just throwing the question out for the laugh. This was probably more obvious before the McKenna judgement, when the government actually campaigned. If we opposed what the government wanted, the playing field wasn't level, because they had been elected, and we hadn't - therefore the supposition was that what the government wanted to do was something that was for the good of the country as the majority of the electorate defined it by their choice of government.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #39
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    That's the thing - most of the parties are in favour of the Lisbon and they cannot digest a NO answer. They wouldn't have cared if people had voted Yes. Lack of understanding is just a great excuse. But that's democracy. You respect people decisions. How many people understand a program of the parties running in the general election? Do you do a re run when one party wins over the other even if it turns out the people didn't understand what they were voting for?


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    #40
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    adr wrote: »
    That's the thing - most of the parties are in favour of the Lisbon and they cannot digest a NO answer. They wouldn't have cared if people had voted Yes. Lack of understanding is just a great excuse. But that's democracy. You respect people decisions. How many people understand a program of the parties running in the general election? Do you do a re run when one party wins over the other even if it turns out the people didn't understand what they were voting for?

    No, but then referendums are rather different from elections. The question in an election is always the same - who do you consider the best people to run the country on your behalf? The question for a referendum is different, because it usually involves a complex issue with far-reaching effects. That makes the question of electoral ignorance of the issue a far more serious matter in a referendum.

    Still, though, the government is entitled to ask the same question again, or modify it by other riders or guarantees and ask it again. That's the way our Constitution works - that being the same document that gets us a referendum in the first place.

    If we elected a government who had promised to push for, say, the removal of the death penalty from the Constitution, and if, having put such an amendment to the people, the amendment was rejected, does that mean that the government should therefore abandon its opposition to the death penalty and promote it instead?


    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #41
    Steviemak
    Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    We elect a govt to supposedly do what is best for this country. Therefore, they are, in my opinion, well with in their rights to get the best deal for this country and if that means running a second referendum then so be it.

    Its not an affront on democracy - its actually the exact opposite.


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    #42
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, but then referendums are rather different from elections. The question in an election is always the same - who do you consider the best people to run the country on your behalf? The question for a referendum is different, because it usually involves a complex issue with far-reaching effects. That makes the question of electoral ignorance of the issue a far more serious matter in a referendum.

    Still, though, the government is entitled to ask the same question again, or modify it by other riders or guarantees and ask it again. That's the way our Constitution works - that being the same document that gets us a referendum in the first place.

    If we elected a government who had promised to push for, say, the removal of the death penalty from the Constitution, and if, having put such an amendment to the people, the amendment was rejected, does that mean that the government should therefore abandon its opposition to the death penalty and promote it instead?


    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Well, when you elect a party to run the country, they make decisions which are far -reaching too so there is no difference from this point of view.

    No it doesn't mean the government should abandon its opposition. It means people changed their mind and decided to reject the amendment. The government should respect their decision. But like in the case of Lisbon the government sees only one right answer and uses its right to ask the question again.


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    #43
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    adr wrote: »
    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary.
    I agree with you in one thing you said, there's no democracy around Lisbon Treaty. If there was one, we'd already have the Treaty applied long time ago.

    Remember Ireland is less than 1% of EU population.


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    #44
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    I agree with you in one thing you said, there's no democracy around Lisbon Treaty. If there was one, we'd already have the Treaty applied long time ago.

    Remember Ireland is less than 1% of EU population.

    You mean force member states to give up their sovereignty because they are small? That's what scares me about the EU.
    Thank God the decision on Lisbon has to be unanimous. Irish people are lucky that they were even given a chance to say what they think on the matter. In most of the other countries the Treaty was sneaked in through a back door and nobody cared about the public opinion.


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    #45
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    adr wrote: »
    Well, when you elect a party to run the country, they make decisions which are far -reaching too so there is no difference from this point of view.

    There's quite a large difference between asking who you would like to make the complex decisions and making them yourself. I would certainly choose a lawyer to write a contract rather than doing it myself. I won't necessarily choose the right lawyer, but I am still likely to make a better choice of lawyer than I would make about the contract.
    adr wrote: »
    No it doesn't mean the government should abandon its opposition. It means people changed their mind and decided to reject the amendment. The government should respect their decision. But like in the case of Lisbon the government sees only one right answer and uses its right to ask the question again.

    That's the point, though. The government has respected the decision - it hasn't ratified Lisbon - and it hasn't abandoned its policy of trying to get Lisbon ratified. What it hasn't done is attempted to ratify Lisbon in defiance of the referendum result - and that's its only obligation here.

    To put it slightly differently, you're right that the government sees only one 'right' answer here, but as long as it only seeks to obtain that answer by the due mechanism, it's doing nothing either illegal or undemocratic. The government thinks ratifying Lisbon is a good idea - why is it not entitled to pursue that?
    You mean force member states to give up their sovereignty because they are small? That's what scares me about the EU.
    Thank God the decision on Lisbon has to be unanimous. Irish people are lucky that they were even given a chance to say what they think on the matter. In most of the other countries the Treaty was sneaked in through a back door and nobody cared about the public opinion.

    That's not the case at all! You may disagree with the extent to which the successive governments of Ireland have chosen to pool sovereignty in Europe, and you may disagree with the fact that the Irish people have voted to allow them to do so, but there is no question of Ireland being forced by anybody.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #46
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    adr wrote: »
    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary. I wonder if they run another referendum it they get a YES. Guess not.
    Is this a democracy in your opinion?

    Yes it is. A democratically elected Government acting in accordance with the provisions of its democratically enacted Constitution is totally democratic.

    In Ireland's case, the relevant provisions of the Constitution allow the Government to hold referenda whenever they so choose. That constitution (and all provisions therein) was approved by the people in a democratic referendum.

    As such, it is totally democratic for the Government to hold a first, second, third or even one hundredth referendum on an issue since in each case the decision rests with the demos (i.e. people).

    You are essentially refusing to accept the democratic decision of the people to approve the Consitution when you claim it is "undemocratic" for the Government to act in accordance with its provisions.

    If you have a problem with the "undemocratic" nature of a second referendum then stop whining and trot off to the Supreme Court where you can argue your case. I am sure the Justices would soon clarify the matter for you.


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    #47
    Happy Monday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Happy Monday


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    Remember Ireland is less than 1% of EU population.

    It's this reality that worried people in the first instance to vote NO.

    If the Vote is Yes next time in the interests of fairness should the government hold a third ballot as a final decider?

    Brian Cowen and the Greens you'll notice are less keen to hold a referendum on the performance of their own government.


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    #48
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    adr wrote: »
    In most of the other countries the Treaty was sneaked in through a back door and nobody cared about the public opinion.
    Presumably the public in <insert member state here> were outraged by this underhanded approach?


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    #49
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Presumably the public in <insert member state here> were outraged by this underhanded approach?

    Of course they were. But they also sneaked in their outrage through the back door, and nobody noticed it.


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    #50
    kevteljeur
    Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭kevteljeur


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    It's this reality that worried people in the first instance to vote NO.

    If the Vote is Yes next time in the interests of fairness should the government hold a third ballot as a final decider?

    Brian Cowen and the Greens you'll notice are less keen to hold a referendum on the performance of their own government.


    They don't have a choice, there'll be a referendum on the performance of their government in 2012. On past indicators, the democratic choice of the Irish people will be based largely on economic performance of the previous few months, preserving the status quo, and on the promise of tax breaks. As little as two of those will see Fianna Fail back in and the current policies maintained, including those on EU integration.

    I wouldn't expect a revolution any time soon.


    .


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    #51
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    adr wrote: »
    You mean force member states to give up their sovereignty because they are small? That's what scares me about the EU.
    Are you one of those who think that the Treaty was made for "all against Ireland"?
    Thank God the decision on Lisbon has to be unanimous. Irish people are lucky that they were even given a chance to say what they think on the matter. In most of the other countries the Treaty was sneaked in through a back door and nobody cared about the public opinion.
    Well yeah, but when they asked the people why they voted no people didn't know what to say which only embarrassed Ireland as credible partner in Europe...


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    #52
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    Are you one of those who think that the Treaty was made for "all against Ireland"?

    Well yeah, but when they asked the people why they voted no people didn't know what to say which only embarrassed Ireland as credible partner in Europe...

    Lets not forget the bright lady from our parts of the woods @WooPeeA from galway ranting on about conscription and her young boys :D, makes me proud being a Galwegian! other people must think we are all nuts here, and then theres the likes of Declan G hanging around like bad smell thinking we are all idiots :cool:


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    #53
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    adr wrote: »
    Democracy? Ireland said NO in the referendum. It's obviously the wrong answer so they'll try again... and again... and again if necessary. I wonder if they run another referendum it they get a YES. Guess not.
    Is this a democracy in your opinion?

    Actually it's likely there will be another referendum if there is a YES vote. There has been a series of treaties and referendums. Most likely if the integration continues then about 10 years from now we'll have another.

    If you are unhappy with the results of the previous YES votes, and if Lisbon passes against your hopes, then you can work towards reversing whatever you don't like through future negotiations with the other EU states about the next treaty.

    If you and people of a like mind cannot get a government into place in Ireland to make such reverses, then that's democracy in action.

    The main point I want to make is regardless of what Lisbon outcome we get nothing is game over. I want a YES, and think a NO would be a real mess, but the EU will find a way through even though I think that would be really bad for Ireland's standing in Europe. If we get a YES, and your fears are realised then one would expect that our next general election will be fought on demands that aspects of Lisbon be modified in the next treaty. My expectation though is that following a YES, none of the fears will come to pass and our elections will continue (as has been mentioned) to focus on the economic travails of the time.

    Ix


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    #54
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    Are you one of those who think that the Treaty was made for "all against Ireland"?

    Well yeah, but when they asked the people why they voted no people didn't know what to say which only embarrassed Ireland as credible partner in Europe...

    I'd call that an embarrassment for our political parties and the government who were supposed to be educating people.


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    #55
    ixtlan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    ...was the public in other countries outraged about Lisbon being ratified...
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Of course they were. But they also sneaked in their outrage through the back door, and nobody noticed it.

    If they didn't notice it then they could hardly be outraged?!

    And if they were to notice how can you say they would then be outraged?!

    If the French were sufficiently outraged then Sarkozy would not have got elected having stated he would pass Lisbon without referendum. Just like here, local issues were far far more important than the EU treaties.

    Ix.


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    #56
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    thebman wrote: »
    I'd call that an embarrassment for our political parties and the government who were supposed to be educating people.

    why do political parties have to be the ones "educating" us?

    are we as a nation to dumb to get involved in politics and understand current affairs?

    theres no need to shift blame on the government, lets place the blame at the root cause of our recent problems

    US the people


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    #57
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    why do political parties have to be the ones "educating" us?

    are we as a nation to dumb to get involved in politics and understand current affairs?

    theres no need to shift blame on the government, lets place the blame at the root cause of our recent problems

    US the people

    Well they had a budget to and instead put their pictures up all over the place grinning moronically just telling people to vote yes.

    They might have at least tried especially considering the incorrect information being easily presented to the people.


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    #58
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    thebman wrote: »
    Well they had a budget to and instead put their pictures up all over the place grinning moronically just telling people to vote yes.

    They might have at least tried especially considering the incorrect information being easily presented to the people.

    thats true :(

    the ones that had their faces up there instead of a meaningful message last years should be all named and shamed!


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    #59
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    thats true :(

    the ones that had their faces up there instead of a meaningful message last years should be all named and shamed!

    I name...Dáil Eireann.

    comprehensively,
    Scofflaw


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    #60
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    The crazy thing is I'm subscribed to this thread so get emailed updates.

    Almost all the google ads in gmail are from Libertas whenever I get a new email about the thread.

    The amount of money they must be spending is crazy but they never seem to have given up in getting their message across.

    Our parties seem to have put the whole thing on hold until closer to the referendum which may cost votes.


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    #61
    adr
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭adr


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    There's quite a large difference between asking who you would like to make the complex decisions and making them yourself. I would certainly choose a lawyer to write a contract rather than doing it myself. I won't necessarily choose the right lawyer, but I am still likely to make a better choice of lawyer than I would make about the contract.

    So you're basiclly saying that the Treaty is too difficult to understand for an average man. What's the point in asking people then? If as you say the governement is an expert they should make the decision, right?

    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's the point, though. The government has respected the decision - it hasn't ratified Lisbon - and it hasn't abandoned its policy of trying to get Lisbon ratified. What it hasn't done is attempted to ratify Lisbon in defiance of the referendum result - and that's its only obligation here.

    To put it slightly differently, you're right that the government sees only one 'right' answer here, but as long as it only seeks to obtain that answer by the due mechanism, it's doing nothing either illegal or undemocratic. The government thinks ratifying Lisbon is a good idea - why is it not entitled to pursue that?


    Ok. So in your opinion it's perfectly right to ask the people the same question again and again until the answer is matching the governments point of view?

    The government says people didn't understand the Treaty and that's why they voted against. So wouldn't it be reasonable to run a survey before the second referendum to make sure people understand the Treaty?
    or
    Let's assume the result of the second referendum is YES and after that it turns out people still don't understand what's this Lisbon all about. Should there be a third referendum?

    Did government make any effort to educate people? To explain what Lisbon means to Ireland?
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    That's not the case at all! You may disagree with the extent to which the successive governments of Ireland have chosen to pool sovereignty in Europe, and you may disagree with the fact that the Irish people have voted to allow them to do so, but there is no question of Ireland being forced by anybody.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Well it depends how you look at this. They say Ireland will be isolated in Europe if they don't ratify Lisbon and at the same time EU doesn't make any effort to address the main concerns of Irealand. They just said Lisbon has to be ratified and it's Irish government's problem how they sort it out with their people. It's forcing in my opinion.
    Besides WooPeeA remark about Ireland being less than 1% of the EU population rises serious concerns about the treatment of Ireland in the EU after Lisbon. Maybe it's just to small to respect their opinion?


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