Can you make a pregnant person redundant??

Mr Bleech

Hi all,

In the place where I work, we were informed today that there will be redundancies. Now, there's only 7 of us - it's a small company, however, we were told that the senior mangement of 2 are fine, so 1 person is to leave out of remaining 5.

My problem is that we were told that out of that 5, as 1 person is pregnant and going on maternity leave next week, she is basically exempt from the potential redundancy situation as the boss said to me that it's impossible to sack someone on maternity leave.

The 5 of us are all at the same level and I think it's unfair her being exempt. Is this legally true, that someone pregnant can not be sacked??

She's a good worker and I haven't a bad word to say about her, but surely it's only fair for her to be considered, pregnant or not?

Wishbone Ash

'Sack' is not the correct work. There's a huge difference between being sacked and made redundant.

A person who becomes pregnant cannot be dismissed solely as a result of that pregnancy (all else being equal). Even in the situation where her health would be at risk should she continue to perform specific tasks, the employer is obliged to try to accomodate her elsewhere, or in extreme cases, give her paid leave.

Redundancy is a bit different though. I'd say your employer is just playing it too safe. If she was otherwise deemed to be next to be laid off, I can't see how being pregnant should make a difference (but I'm open to correction).

Mr Bleech

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

'Sack' is not the correct work. There's a huge difference between being sacked and made redundant.

A person who becomes pregnant cannot be dismissed solely as a result of that pregnancy (all else being equal). Even in the situation where her health would be at risk should she continue to perform specific tasks, the employer is obliged to try to accomodate her elsewhere, or in extreme cases, give her paid leave.

Redundancy is a bit different though. I'd say your employer is just playing it too safe. If she was otherwise deemed to be next to be laid off, I can't see how being pregnant should make a difference (but I'm open to correction).

You're correct, I meant redundant not sacked ! Sorry

juke

A woman cannot be made redundant whilst on maternity leave - if her job became redundant during the maternity leave, the employer would have to wait until the maternity leave ended before serving her notice.

tony1kenobi

A girl I worked with was made redundant at the end of March. She was due to go on maternity leave at the start of May.

juke

It's ok to make a pregnant woman redundant if she hasn't gone on maternity leave yet - provided there enough notice given. Under the legislation, an employer must give a minimum of 2 weeks notice (even if this isn't always followed in practice)

As the pregnant woman in the OP is due to go on leave in a week, I think the employer is right to be cautious.

gerrycollins

please remember its the job role thats been made redundant and as such the person subsequently is made redundant.

Also if she goes on maternity she will be out for at least 6 months which the company will not pay her for so it will help their fincial situation not having another person to pay.

Some people play it very careful when dealing with pregnant women, however nothing before maternity leave is any different other that health and safety obligations of the employer.

fret_wimp

does this apply to sick leave also. there are a few redundancies in my team.

There is a girl who has been on sick leave for the last 12 months. hasnt been in work but is still employed with the company. Is she excempt from redundancy, or as the company can see that they can manage without that person/role, is this person at more risk?

gerrycollins

fret_wimp wrote: »

does this apply to sick leave also. there are a few redundancies in my team.

There is a girl who has been on sick leave for the last 12 months. hasnt been in work but is still employed with the company. Is she excempt from redundancy, or as the company can see that they can manage without that person/role, is this person at more risk?

I dont know why any company would retain anyone on the books whilst on sick for over 6 months.

where possible a common practise is to make that persons job role redundant. the time off however sick has to be considered as redundancy pay

Mrs OBumble

gerrycollins wrote: »

I dont know why any company would retain anyone on the books whilst on sick for over 6 months.

where possible a common practise is to make that persons job role redundant. the time off however sick has to be considered as redundancy pay

Why pay out redundancy pay when you don't need to? If the person is off sick, they're not costing the company anything. When they finally recover, yes, you may need to pay redundancy if you don't need them then. But maybe you will be able to re-absorb them into the workforce (eg if sonmeone else has left).

To answer the OP's question, I don't think the protection does apply to people out on sick leave.

AARRRGH

You can make anyone redundant - whether they are on maternity leave or sick leave. As Gerry says, it's the role not the person that's made redundant.

By all means someone on maternity leave can take a case for unfair dismissal, but if the employer can prove he could not afford to keep her on the books (easy) or that her role is no longer relevant (also fairly easy) she will lose the case.

ScouseMouse

gerrycollins wrote: »

please remember its the job role thats been made redundant and as such the person subsequently is made redundant.

Also if she goes on maternity she will be out for at least 6 months which the company will not pay her for so it will help their fincial situation not having another person to pay.

Some people play it very careful when dealing with pregnant women, however nothing before maternity leave is any different other that health and safety obligations of the employer.

Agreed. It is not the person being made redundant, it is the position. As long as the employer can show, if required, that it was nothing personal, then there should not be a problem.

However, a lot of the time, the law backs the employee even when they are wrong so all employers have to err on the side of caution.

juke

Below is taken from Citizen Information.

Can I be made redundant if I am on maternity leave?
No, you may not be made redundant while on maternity leave or additional maternity leave. You may be made redundant when you return to work or while you are pregnant before you go on maternity leave. However if you are selected for redundancy because you are pregnant, you may qualify to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. Selection for redundancy based on certain grounds such as pregnancy is considered unfair under the unfair dismissals legislation.

gerrycollins

JustMary wrote: »

Why pay out redundancy pay when you don't need to? If the person is off sick, they're not costing the company anything. When they finally recover, yes, you may need to pay redundancy if you don't need them then. But maybe you will be able to re-absorb them into the workforce (eg if sonmeone else has left).

To answer the OP's question, I don't think the protection does apply to people out on sick leave.

sorry the redundancy is only applicable in certain cases of course

Newaglish

AARRRGH wrote: »

You can make anyone redundant - whether they are on maternity leave or sick leave. As Gerry says, it's the role not the person that's made redundant.

By all means someone on maternity leave can take a case for unfair dismissal, but if the employer can prove he could not afford to keep her on the books (easy) or that her role is no longer relevant (also fairly easy) she will lose the case.

This is not true - you can't officially make the person redundant until their period of maternity leave is finished.

You can make someone redundant while and sick leave and when redundancies are coming they tend to be the first to go (those on paid sick leave, anyway)

AARRRGH

juke wrote: »

Below is taken from Citizen Information.

Can I be made redundant if I am on maternity leave?
No, you may not be made redundant while on maternity leave or additional maternity leave. You may be made redundant when you return to work or while you are pregnant before you go on maternity leave. However if you are selected for redundancy because you are pregnant, you may qualify to bring a claim for unfair dismissal. Selection for redundancy based on certain grounds such as pregnancy is considered unfair under the unfair dismissals legislation.

I think that paragraph is a bit misleading. What they are trying to say (I've marked it in bold above) is you cannot be made redundant because you are on maternity leave. This is different than your role being made redundant because the company cannot afford to continue employing you, or because the role is no longer relevant.

For example, if I own a company and we are having money trouble, I can make your role redundant. It doesn't matter if you are on maternity leave or not; I cannot afford to continue employing someone for your role. The fact that you are on maternity leave is irrelevant.

gerrycollins

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think that paragraph is a bit misleading. What they are trying to say (I've marked it in bold above) is you cannot be made redundant because you are on maternity leave. This is different than your role being made redundant because the company cannot afford to continue employing you, or because the role is no longer relevant.

For example, if I own a company and we are having money trouble, I can make your role redundant. It doesn't matter if you are on maternity leave or not; I cannot afford to continue employing someone for your role. The fact that you are on maternity leave is irrelevant.

but if your on maternity you will not be informed until your return.

Nolanger

No, but you can make a redundant person pregnant.

Newaglish

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think that paragraph is a bit misleading. What they are trying to say (I've marked it in bold above) is you cannot be made redundant because you are on maternity leave. This is different than your role being made redundant because the company cannot afford to continue employing you, or because the role is no longer relevant.

For example, if I own a company and we are having money trouble, I can make your role redundant. It doesn't matter if you are on maternity leave or not; I cannot afford to continue employing someone for your role. The fact that you are on maternity leave is irrelevant.

The originally quoted paragraph says two separate things:

• You cannot be made redundant while on maternity leave
• You cannot be made redundant because you are pregnant. You can however be made redundant while pregnant prior to going on maternity leave, provided the reason for your redundancy is not your pregnancy.

I don't understand your second paragraph - you can decide in your head that the 'role' is redundant but you can't actually do anything official with that until the person comes back from maternity leave. It's been mentioned before but it is against the law to make someone redundant while on maternity leave.

For example, if a person has been employed by the company for 1 year and 11 months, you can't make them redundant and therefore avoid paying statutory redundancy. They will still be employed by you until the period of maternity leave ends (therefore qualifying for statutory redundancy once they reach the 2 year mark)

While the employer does not have a statutory obligation to pay employees who are on maternity leave, they may have a contractual obligation as a result of the contract of employment. If you have a contract with an employee to pay them 60% (example) of their salary while on maternity leave, you can't just decide that you can't afford that. It's the same as not paying any of your other employees - you open yourself up to the EAT who will make a judgement against you. In many cases however, the employee is probably only entitled to welfare while on maternity leave and does not actually receive wgaes directly from the employer.

Wishbone Ash

JustMary wrote: »

If the person is off sick, they're not costing the company anything

That's not always true even if the employee is 'off pay'. I spend a fair bit of time getting and processing sick certificates, writing letters and making appointments for Occupational Health for employees who are on long term sick leave. Even though they may not be getting paid, I have to be paid.

Eoin

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think that paragraph is a bit misleading. What they are trying to say (I've marked it in bold above) is you cannot be made redundant because you are on maternity leave. This is different than your role being made redundant because the company cannot afford to continue employing you, or because the role is no longer relevant.

For example, if I own a company and we are having money trouble, I can make your role redundant. It doesn't matter if you are on maternity leave or not; I cannot afford to continue employing someone for your role. The fact that you are on maternity leave is irrelevant.

You can't be made redundant while on maternity leave.

The money issue doesn't really come into it as the company is not obliged to pay any maternity pay.

fret_wimp wrote:

does this apply to sick leave also. there are a few redundancies in my team.

There is a girl who has been on sick leave for the last 12 months. hasnt been in work but is still employed with the company. Is she excempt from redundancy, or as the company can see that they can manage without that person/role, is this person at more risk?

She could be let go just for being on sick leave that long, let alone getting made redundant.

The_Conductor

Nolanger wrote: »

No, but you can make a redundant person pregnant.

Or even a pregnant person redundant

The deciding factor is whether the post has been abolished. If someone is subsequently employed to fulfill a similar function to the one the pregnant employee used undertake- the employer may possibly be found to be in breach of legislation.

axer

smccarrick wrote: »

Or even a pregnant person redundant

The deciding factor is whether the post has been abolished. If someone is subsequently employed to fulfill a similar function to the one the pregnant employee used undertake- the employer may possibly be found to be in breach of legislation.

The issue here is that you cannot even give the notice of redundancy to the person on maternity leave. I guess it can be done when they come back.

http://www.entemp.ie/employment/redundancy/faq.htm#faq14 wrote:

14. Can an employee be made redundant while on Maternity Leave or on Additional Maternity Leave?

No. Notice of Redundancy (included in RP50) cannot issue when a person is on Maternity Leave or indeed on Additional Maternity Leave. The Equality Authority are the experts on this and callers can be referred to them at (01) 4173333. (Lo Call – 1890 24 55 45).

Delta2113

Everybody in my Department got made redundant but a Girl was out on maternity leave at the time back in April. A friend in the company just messaged me to say that Girl is now back in the company and is being trained in his department.

Surely she should have been made redundant as well (nothing personal against the girl).

Any point in me complaining or can they just say 'oh well she is now back and guess what we now need her for another job'.