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[Daily Mail] Two-thirds of British voters want Government to break 'harmful' EU rules

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Are they? Where have you seen that? In any case, most politicians will do almost anything to get power, so it should hardly be a surprise. I guess.

    I don't consider that particularly accurate. Most politicians will say quite a lot of things to get elected - but the continuing silence on immigration, which is supposed to be such a huge issue, suggests that even there there are plenty of lines that don't get crossed in pursuit of power.

    I think it's possible the majority of people have very little idea about most things, whether it be the EU, or Brian Clowen, or psychokinesis, or the internal combustustion engine. However, in a democracy we have to allow for those with opinions which are plain wrong or which are based on false facts or decisions reached because the individual voter likes the colour of a particular politicians hair.

    While we do have to do so, there's no particular point in claiming, in that light, that a democratic is some kind of determination of truth. An electorate ignorant of a particular issue will give an ignorant verdict.
    I think your point opens up a whole new argument about democracy and about how our democracy is no longer very democratic or answerable to the electorate. Many voters vote not with hard logic but because of a feeling they have about a person, a party or an organisation. Wring our hands about that as we might, we can't change it and can only try to educate and illuminate when we see it.

    I tend to agree with you, but, again, it should be clear that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the way our democracy works - the problem is that the electorate is 'asleep at the wheel'. That means that the problem is not that "our democracy is no longer very democratic or answerable to the electorate", but that the electorate is not exercising its rights or requiring answers.

    As you say, education and illumination is what is required - no amount of fiddling with the institutions will change things as long as the electorate are disengaged.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    The result of the vote in the French referendum on the constitution, taken together with the Danish result and the Irish result of the treaty, should be more than enough evidence that its not just the UK where there is considerable unease about the EU across the EU.

    Alternatively, the results might equally well be regarded as being very strong evidence that referenda are not a good method of making decisions on highly complex issues. Referenda are characterised by schoals of red herrings, most (but not all) deliberately raised by the No side groups with the primary intention of spreading confusion and clouding the decision making process.
    Hence, the reason why they are rarely used in most countries.

    Incidentally, why should we ignore the results of local, national and European elections where the electorate overwhelmingly return pro-EU parties and politicans throughout the EU? After all, if the No campaigners here are really representative of the Irish people, shouldn't we expect them to win 6 or 7 of the 12 seats in the forthcoming European elections?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    meganj wrote: »
    Know thine enemy.

    There is growing support for the UK to leave the EU. It's the whole "we were once an empire" thing, they still believe tht they're entitled to more then they actually are. In addition to this I find the Daily Mail very amusing, I especially enjoy their Euro-skeptic approach to things tis most excellent. Fact of the matter is the UK thinks that the EU is responsible for all its various woes. what's even more amusing is if you go through people's comments on the Mail's website when we voted NO, it's all "well done our Celtic brothers" and so on. Tis cringe worthy i'm afraid! I do find myself wishing they would leave the EU if only so the country would fail miserably and then we could invade them and see how they like it... :D
    you just havent a clue do you ?this is some of the coments from our EU masters on the lisbon treaty----valery d,estaing--public opinion will be led to adopt without knowing it, the proposal that we dare not present to them directly, but will be hidden and disguised.--giuliana amato[italy]--the good thing about calling it a consitution is that no-one can ask for a referendum on it.--nicolas sarkozt [france]--the project of our founding farthers is compleat,the economic union is becoming a political union-.---75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    getz wrote: »
    75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys
    Prove it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    getz wrote: »
    you just havent a clue do you ?this is some of the coments from our EU masters on the lisbon treaty----valery d,estaing--public opinion will be led to adopt without knowing it, the proposal that we dare not present to them directly, but will be hidden and disguised.--giuliana amato[italy]--the good thing about calling it a consitution is that no-one can ask for a referendum on it.--nicolas sarkozt [france]--the project of our founding farthers is compleat,the economic union is becoming a political union-.---75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys

    Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.

    Really, if you're not going to contribute anything but a repetition of the same old tired cliches and vacuous slogans together with rudeness to other posters, I suggest you read rather than type for a while.

    Scofflaw


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    Scofflaw wrote:
    75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch.

    What's your source for this?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    O'Morris wrote: »
    What's your source for this?
    It's been on this forum, not long ago.

    I'm curious: why didn't you ask getz for a source for the 75% figure?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.

    Really, if you're not going to contribute anything but a repetition of the same old tired cliches and vacuous slogans together with rudeness to other posters, I suggest you read rather than type for a while.

    Scofflaw
    the comments i made of what was said by eu leaders are true the comment i made to the statement ;that said we should invade them, wich i find very insulting and as usual anti/british,was very mild,i do in no way believe that the the purpose of the eu was political /or to stop wars,it was all about making money,and as far as the uk leaving it ,i wished they would ,the uk tax payer has been putting more money into the eu and taking less out than any other eu country for instance france,that puts the same amount of cash in as the uk ,takes back 98% in farming subs ,if you want facts and fig i can come up with them-so please check on the rudeness of other posters before having a go at me-a bit of balance is needed here


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    getz wrote: »
    if you want facts and fig i can come up with them
    I do. Please provide facts and figures to back up your assertion that 75% of our laws come from the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    getz wrote: »
    if you want facts and fig i can come up with them-

    We clearly want them... please do?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    passive wrote: »
    We clearly want them... please do?
    all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    getz wrote: »
    all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org
    Why do you accept their figures without question?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    getz wrote: »
    all fact an fig are on a web site by the independence and democracy group---www.indemgroup.org

    Can you be a bit more helpful? I can't find the 75% of our laws bit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    getz wrote: »
    the uk tax payer has been putting more money into the eu and taking less out than any other eu country

    Total lies - I suspect??

    EDIT: Please provide back up to this statement.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Steviemak wrote: »
    Total lies.
    Don't accuse people of lying, thanks. If it's factually inaccurate, refute it with facts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,636 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    From the indem.org website:
    Who we are - Our Program

    The Independence/Democracy Group in the European Parliament was set up on 20 July 2004. It incorporates EU-critics, eurosceptics and eurorealists. The main goals of the Group are to reject the Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe and to oppose all forms of centralisation.

    So not exactly a non-biased group. Not to mention it includes the poor excuse for a politician that is Kathy Sinnott

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Don't accuse people of lying, thanks. If it's factually inaccurate, refute it with facts.

    Agreed. But I can not let a poster state incorrectly that the UK is the biggest contributer to the EU when it is totally wrong and misleading. I would ask him to back up such a grossly incorrect statement with facts.

    If he can't back it up is it not therefore for a lie?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭markesmith


    Couple of points.

    1. Daily Mail is a glorified tabloid, and a bastion of Euroscepticism.

    2. No-one is quoting reliable figures here, so it all just comes across as conjecture.

    3. Ireland is not the UK! The arguments that the Mail, Express, Telegraph and Times (London) make re the EU are not, generally, applicable to us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sadly, this is the same guff we've been hearing all along - antagonistic, inaccurate, and full of context-free quotes. 75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch. Giscard d'Estaing was not claiming that people were being led to adopt proposals without knowing it, but that it would be a bad thing if they were. Not calling Lisbon a 'constitution' makes not a blind bit of difference to whether countries have referendums on it - that's something that is determined purely by the contents and the national constitution, which is why we're having one. The EC was an explicitly political project from day one - the purpose of it was to prevent European wars.
    You should bottle your patience and sell it on eBay - you'd make a fortune.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    sink wrote: »

    So Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Germany and the Netherlands are putting more money in and less out than the UK.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Steviemak wrote: »
    So Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Germany and the Netherlands are putting more money in and less out than the UK.

    And don't forget that those figure come from Open Europe, a UK based eurosceptic think tank. They're hardly lying as those figure don't support the common eurosceptic perception.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭markesmith


    Maybe not lying, possibly understating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    markesmith wrote: »
    Couple of points.

    1. Daily Mail is a glorified tabloid, and a bastion of Euroscepticism.

    2. No-one is quoting reliable figures here, so it all just comes across as conjecture.

    3. Ireland is not the UK! The arguments that the Mail, Express, Telegraph and Times (London) make re the EU are not, generally, applicable to us.
    the republic of ireland could not ignore the fact that if the uk pulled out of europe they would not be effected,how well, just think about it all, people in and from the republic would then be treated as foreigners in the uk, as people from outside the eu do now,this could effect millions of irish citizens living in the uk, the biggest effect would be trade,most irish trade [farming] would not be guaranteed access to the uk market,as our old trading partners new zealand/australia and canada would be trying to get back in,it would not be that easy for ireland to compeet in eu markets because of transport and costs as we know the eu is still distroying food stuffs to keep their market alive [farming subs] so and we are talking hypotheticaly[big word] would the republic also leave ?another good web site iswww.ukip.org the nice bit is frank carson talking in blackpool 4 miles from me about leaving the eu


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,636 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    getz wrote: »
    ...would the republic also leave?
    No, it would be a bizarre move for Ireland to follow a hypothetical UK exit. Freedom of movement within the islands would be preserved, The Common Travel Area predates the EEC, and would be inevitably be updated and restrengthened if the UK left the EU.

    Foreign Direct Investment in Ireland would shoot up as virtually every UK business would set up their EU headquarters in Ireland, an English-speaking country with favourable corporation tax and a highly skilled population. Not to mention the fact that it's right next door.

    So far you've
    • posted quotes with zero context to mis-represent the views of the people making them
    • claimed 75% of new laws in Ireland are made by the EU with no references
    • claimed the UK tax-payer is the highest net contributor to the EU, which has been shown to be untrue
    • claimed France contributes the same amount to the EU as the UK, when it actually contributes about €37bn more than the UK
    • claimed France receives 98% of its contributions back from the EU, when in reality they get about 63.5% back
    • claimed to have the facts and figures to back your stuff up, but haven't produced anything except one link to the top-level of a far-from-independent website
    I suggest you start trying to back-up at least some of the outlandish claims you've made

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    getz wrote: »
    the republic of ireland could not ignore the fact that if the uk pulled out of europe they would not be effected,how well, just think about it all, people in and from the republic would then be treated as foreigners in the uk, as people from outside the eu do now,this could effect millions of irish citizens living in the uk, the biggest effect would be trade,most irish trade [farming] would not be guaranteed access to the uk market,as our old trading partners new zealand/australia and canada would be trying to get back in,it would not be that easy for ireland to compeet in eu markets because of transport and costs as we know the eu is still distroying food stuffs to keep their market alive [farming subs] so and we are talking hypotheticaly[big word] would the republic also leave ?another good web site iswww.ukip.org the nice bit is frank carson talking in blackpool 4 miles from me about leaving the eu

    Not very easy to decipher your point from this collection of words. For a UK based eurosceptic you seem overly worried about Ireland. Why so?? when the UKIP and BNP want to bring in restrictions on Irish goods and people coming into the UK, regardless of the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    O'Morris wrote: »
    75% of new laws in Ireland are not made in the EU - the figure is about 28% at a stretch.
    What's your source for this?

    It's been quoted in a variety of places now - it's from an analysis of all Irish legislation from 1992-2009 for European references. Here's one blog post on the subject.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭Hitman Actual


    O'Morris wrote: »
    What's your source for this?

    The most up-to-date source is from The Times yesterday, with info contained in the Fine Gael European Manifesto (page 13):
    wrote:
    Most EU directives are incorporated into Irish law through what are called ‘Statutory Instruments’. Between 1992 and 2009 in Ireland 588 Acts and 10,725 Statutory Instruments were passed. 114 Acts contain at least
    one reference to European legislation while 3,050 of the 10,725 Statutory Instruments contain at least one reference to European legislation. That means that of Irish legislation from 1992 to 2009, then, only 3,164 out
    of 11,313 Acts and Instruments contain any reference whatsoever to European legislation. The actual total is 27.97%, far off the mythical 80%.

    Very similar to the figure quoted by Generation Yes, and I get the feeling that Fine Gael only bothered to check out the stats after GenYes posted their findings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    getz wrote: »
    75% of all new laws in ireland are now made in the eu, by politicians from other countrys (sic)

    Free from the cronyism, the nepotism, the nods and winks, the sheer amateurism that defines Irish Politics - What a shame its not 100%


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