Imagine billing you for your bill !!

Shelflife

Just got my phone bill from imagine and included on it was a charge of €1.25 for a paper bill. €1.25 they charge me to post out my bill crazy.

i rang them and they said that they informed us of this weeks ago and we could get them emailed to us. i never got that letter.

told them i would leave if they didnt refund and cease the charge, "sales manager " getting back to me later.

jor el

A lot of telecos charge for paper billing (or sometimes they call it a discount for e-bill). BT have been doing it for about 5 years. My O2 bill is e-bill, but I don't know if they charge extra for paper. I find the e-bills handier.

kcb

Shelflife wrote: »

Just got my phone bill from imagine and included on it was a charge of €1.25 for a paper bill. €1.25 they charge me to post out my bill crazy.

i rang them and they said that they informed us of this weeks ago and we could get them emailed to us. i never got that letter.

told them i would leave if they didnt refund and cease the charge, "sales manager " getting back to me later.

It's a joke alright isin't it.

Keep pushing them, I did, and it worked in the end. Got money back. Twas the principle rather than the couple of euro.

Also NOTE, the "Unlimited" calls is only unlimited up to an hour. They start charging you after 60 mins. So hang up and call back on 59 mins if you are making long calls!

Cabaal

I personally wish the likes of ESB charges customers for bills as well and offered discounts for people willing to use on-line billing,

I'd certainly wish that all ISP's charge for paper bills and allowed on-line billing as then they'd be no excuse

daheff

As far as I know there is a legal requirement to provide a bill/invoice for services provided (mainly for VAT purposes). Not sure if this requirement means that they can charge for providing a hard copy.

Soft copies are not generally acceptable because not everybody has a printer!

Cabaal

daheff wrote: »

Soft copies are not generally acceptable because not everybody has a printer!

which is why they provide a paper bill option for a charge

carbsy

Three charge €4.50+vat for a paper bill iirc. :rolleyes:

Shelflife

Just to clarify this isnt for a copy , this is for the original bill, Cabaal id have to problem with a discount for e billing but not an extra charge for sending me the bill to which i am entitled.

Cabaal you need to remember that if your in business you would have to print off the bill, so you would need to factor in the cost of paper, ink , the printer cost and the cost of the wage of the person that has to print if off.

TheBigLebowski

Shelflife wrote: »

Cabaal id have no problem with a discount for e billing but not an extra charge for sending me the bill

What's the difference? Some companies call it a discount for e-bill, some call it extra charge for paper. Same thing.

antoinolachtnai

To be fair to Imagine, you do have to pay for having the bill posted to you with all providers. It is only a matter of the charge being itemised.

I can see (and well believe) that they didn't communicate this very well.

Shelflife

Its not the same thing, if we both use €100 of phone time , if you choose to get an ebill and they give you a discount of €1. you pay €99 and i pay €100 . Thats fine by me as you have incurred costs in printing a bill off. i dont see why i should have to pay extra for a bill.

Nody

Shelflife wrote: »

Its not the same thing, if we both use €100 of phone time , if you choose to get an ebill and they give you a discount of €1. you pay €99 and i pay €100 . Thats fine by me as you have incurred costs in printing a bill off. i dont see why i should have to pay extra for a bill.

Imagine could also have charged you 99 EUR for the calls and 1 EUR for paper bills and then offer 1 EUR discount for e-billing and call it 100 EUR telecom calls and you'd not be here complaining.

All they have done is make it clear what extra options you're paying for by breaking down the actual costs on the bill more clearly. This gives you the chance to choose what extra options you wish to have/pay for.

admiralofthefleet

upc/ntl charge €3 for non direct debit payment of bills

delllat

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

upc/ntl charge €3 for non direct debit payment of bills

those knackers also charge another fee for NOT taking their tv package if you have their broadband

Cabaal

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

upc/ntl charge €3 for non direct debit payment of bills

which is a separate issue and not to be confused with this, lads atleast try keep things on topc

Shelflife

Nody wrote: »

Imagine could also have charged you 99 EUR for the calls and 1 EUR for paper bills and then offer 1 EUR discount for e-billing and call it 100 EUR telecom calls and you'd not be here complaining.

All they have done is make it clear what extra options you're paying for by breaking down the actual costs on the bill more clearly. This gives you the chance to choose what extra options you wish to have/pay for.

i understand what your saying nody but if signed up to a €100 package and the bill was included in this price , now they say that they informed me of a change in T&C and introduced a new charge. i didnt get any notification and i didnt agree to accept the new T&C or the new charge.

i just think its a bit underhanded and def unfair to alot (esp elderly) of customers who wouldnt have internet access.

if you asked for a receipt in the local shop and they charged you you wouldnt come back.

Cabaal

Perhaps it was outlined in the first set of T&C's...they simply did not enforce it?
Common enough for company's to do this

[EDIT]

T&C's say

6.3.5 The Customer agrees that Imagine shall not be obliged to provide a paper copy of any bill. Customers will be issued a summary itemised bill on-line. If the customer opts for a paper bill a charge of €1.25 per month (inc VAT) shall apply.

http://www.imagine.ie/Terms-and-conditions/Residential-voice-terms-and-conditions

I queried this with Imagine via their on-line chat have the voice Terms & Conditions been amended or changed recently and they agent stated as far as she is aware that section has always been present they have simply started to enforce it recently.

Nothing wrong with this imho as it would be no different to Eircom charging people for going over their Broadband cap, at present they don't but the T&C's state they do.

If people don';t like such things in the T&C's of services they sign up to they should not agree to the T&C's, its as simple as that

Shelflife

"as far as she is aware "

Cabaal the agent i spoke to agreed that this was a new agreement and that i was notified of this with my last bill ( i wasnt) , even if they did send me the new terms i should have to sign a new agreement if they want to change the original one.

a non response should not imply acceptance. I still think that its a sly and petty charge.

Cabaal

Shelflife wrote: »

"as far as she is aware "

I did say as far as she is aware, she is not giving a official company response here

Cabaal the agent i spoke to agreed that this was a new agreement and that i was notified of this with my last bill ( i wasnt) ,

Fair enough, atleast thats been cleared up

even if they did send me the new terms i should have to sign a new agreement if they want to change the original one.

a non response should not imply acceptance. I still think that its a sly and petty charge.

Thats not normal practice in the industry and not in-line with Imagines T&C's, companys will notify you of T&C's changes if you don't opt out within say a set period like 30 days then you are bound by the new T&C's.

It would be an administration nightmare for a company to request ALL customers to sign and return documents at the same time.

Also under your suggested model say a customers acceptance letter is delayed by An Post, the company marks this as non-acceptance and accordingly cancels all the services...this would piss off the customer big time but then the company wouldn't be doing anything wrong

Imagine T&C's state

11.3 imagine reserves the right to alter any terms of this agreement, the Services or any part thereof and the imagine Rate Guide(s) upon 14 days notice to the Customer

You agreed to this section, as such you can't expect T&C's to sign and return you simply should expect notification.

The best you can hope from this is OPT-OUT of Imagines services by not agreeing to the T&C's changes which if you can prove they did not notifiy you you'd have 14 days from the day they DO notify you,

However if you want to remain an imagine customer then you must accept their new charges.

So bottom line, remain a customer and pay or leave Imagine and don't pay

Walkman

carbsy wrote: »

Three charge €4.50+vat for a paper bill iirc. :rolleyes:

You recall incorrectly. That is for not paying DD, there is no charge for paper billing.

Walkman

€1.25 seems fair enough. I reckon the money covers the cost of their envelopes, stamps, paying people to sort and send bills, etc.


Can you not just ask them to e-mail you your bill from now on?

Walkman wrote: »

You recall incorrectly. That is for not paying DD, there is no charge for paper billing.

Correct.

snappieT

jor el wrote: »

I find the e-bills handier.

Can you use them from proof of ID?

AIB have been trying to push e-statements onto me for months, but I'm very aware that if I needed to open a new bank account, xtravision account etc. I would need (recent) proof of address, and I'm scared of losing that...

Shelflife

Cabaal i understand what your saying and yes it would be a logistical nightmare, but the fact reamains that its a sly way of doing it, they were very quick to accept that i didnt get the notification so i wonder they they send it out to everyone or just a token few.

the fact remains that i have an agreement/contract with imagine, if they want to alter that agreement they can ask, if i dont agree to the change then they should honour the original agreement.

Its not the €1.25 its the principle of them charging you for the bill, in my case its handy enough for me to print out the email, but for alot of people like my parents who dont have internet access then its an extra charge that alot of them wouldnt notice.

where will it end, as soon as the other utility companies see them getting away with this they will all start doing it and then the cost will increase every year.

I just dont think that we should have to pay to get a bill.

Cabaal

Shelflife wrote: »

the fact remains that i have an agreement/contract with imagine, if they want to alter that agreement they can ask, if i dont agree to the change then they should honour the original agreement.

I know thats what you want but thats not what you agreed to so if you don't like the new terms your only option is to cancel your service simple as.

If we had a system where if people didn't agree to new Terms they stayed on old terms you'd have 100's of different tiers for thousands of different customers with every company, in addition you'd have some customers with an agreement for companys that no longer exist because they refused to agree to the new Terms which state the company has been bought for example.

It would be a crazy and totally unworkable situation,

Its not the €1.25 its the principle of them charging you for the bill, in my case its handy enough for me to print out the email, but for alot of people like my parents who dont have internet access then its an extra charge that alot of them wouldnt notice.

where will it end, as soon as the other utility companies see them getting away with this they will all start doing it and then the cost will increase every year.

I just dont think that we should have to pay to get a bill.

I'd agree its not ideal for some people, but at the end of the day a company is entitled to cover its costs and printing colour letters and postage is not free

foggy_lad

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

upc/ntl charge €3 for non direct debit payment of bills

but do they charge an extra fee for sending out your bill? afaik a company/business must provide an invoice to their customers and an email is not a proper invoice, the invoice should be posted out and be for the amound due but anyone availing of online billing can usually get a reduction of a few euros in their bill.

also all these companies call themselves businesses so they should act accordingly and invoice people properly for goods and services supplied!

Cabaal

Lads the UPC DD charge is a completely seperate issue to the OPS post

Hagar

Imagine T&C wrote:

11.3 imagine reserves the right to alter any terms of this agreement, the Services or any part thereof and the imagine Rate Guide(s) upon 14 days notice to the Customer

That clause basically means that they can change anything and everything in the contract you signed at their whim and you have no say in the matter. Surely that's an unreasonable clause unenforceable in court.

Cabaal

Hagar wrote: »

Imagine T&C wrote:

11.3 imagine reserves the right to alter any terms of this agreement, the Services or any part thereof and the imagine Rate Guide(s) upon 14 days notice to the Customer

That clause basically means that they can change anything and everything in the contract you signed at their whim and you have no say in the matter. Surely that's an unreasonable clause unenforceable in court.

Its not that different to BT Ireland

http://www.btireland.ie/terms.shtml

15.4 BT reserves the right to alter any terms of this Agreement upon 30 days notice to the Customer. In the event of any such alteration, the Customer shall have the ability to terminate the Service without penalty, by giving notice to BT within 30 days of notification by BT of such alteration, subject to payment by the Customer in full of all charges due prior to the date of receipt of such notice by BT.

Eircom - http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/BBStandardTandCsv2.pdf

Smart Telecom - http://84.203.253.201/termsandconditions.pdf

Need I go on

You do have a say in the matter, if they change the agreement you don't have to accept the new agreement which you can simply do by opting-out by canceling your service. If you accept the agreement you continue using the service.

This is pretty standard stuff and yes it'll hold up as they are giving you a opt-out in this manner.

In fact if you did want to nit pick I'd be very concerned about the eircom agreement as it effectively says they can use pop-ups to notify you of stuff and thats ok, they don't even have to e-mail you or send you letters!

Hagar

Cabaal wrote: »

You do have a say in the matter, if they change the agreement you don't have to accept the new agreement which you can simply do by opting-out by canceling your service.

This is pretty standard stuff and yes it'll hold up as they are giving you a opt-out in this manner

Isn't the whole idea of a contract two parties entering a binding agreement? The whole idea of one party being able to say later "I'm unilaterally changing the agreement and if you don't like it you are free to fnck off" is contrary to the the idea of a contract. If both parties don't agree to the change surely the enforceable terms of the original contract are still binding?

Cabaal

Hagar wrote: »

Isn't the whole idea of a contract two parties entering a binding agreement? The whole idea of one party being able to say later "I'm unilaterally changing the agreement and if you don't like it you are free to fnck off" is contrary to the the idea of a contract. If both parties don't agree to the change surely the enforceable terms of the original contract are still binding?

For example:
So how do you suggest a company change hands if it bought if the customer is entitled to keeping the old contract with the old and now non-existent company with contact details outlineed in the first contract that are not valid anymore?

A contract is binding but if a customer reads it and agrees to a contract which has clauses allowing the company to change it then how can the customer complaint when the company exercises these clauses?

The company isn't doing anything wrong, its simply that the customer may not like when the company does this....this in itself does not make it illegal as its the customers personal view.

Hagar

Cabaal wrote: »

For example:
So how do you suggest a company change hands if it bought if the customer is entitled to keeping the old contract with the old and now non-existent company with contact details outlineed in the first contract that are not valid anymore?

Isn't that akin to selling a property with a sitting tenant? The tenancy continues as per the original agreement just the benficiary of the rent changes.

Cabaal wrote: »

A contract is binding but if a customer reads it and agrees to a contract which has clauses allowing the company to change it then how can the customer complaint when the company exercises these clauses?

Isn't there the concept in law of unfair, restrictive, unenforceable clauses? Don't major companies rely on public ignorance of the law to work contracts such as these to their advantage? They know full well an individual hasn't got the budget to take them on in court to have the clause nullified. Does that make such clauses right or legal? I don't think so.