The Rule on the Black

red_ice

Was playing pool with a new bunch of lads last night and we started getting whopped.

They were on the black which was positioned on the edge of the pocket, we had 4 balls on the table.

I hit the white at a slight angle against the cushion (10:00 to 2:00), hitting the inside of my ball, pushing it up in front of the black, the white bounced and hit another ball right up against the black. the white rolled out to center table. The shot was played exactly how i wanted it.

I forced a basic rule of the game, one which in every circle of players i've played against has never been contested. 3 strokes on the black = lost game. The other team said i was making up rules and it got so heated that one of the other players was about 2 inches from my face calling me a liar, saying that i was making stuff up to suit my game.

the point im making is, do you play that rule? I honestly feel that i played the perfect shot in that scenario. The only way they could pot the black was through my balls, i had 2 other balls to play on the table which if they played left them with 3 foul strokes and a lost game.

mickdw

There does seem to be different rules played in different parts of the country. Its fine when playing with your own gang but when mixed with different people it can get stupid.

celticfc

I've never heard of this "rule" & I'd be of the same opinion as the people that the OP was playing against.

However, there may well be some official variation of pool with that rule.

The problem with pool (8 ball anyway) is that it has so many different variations, people get mixed up with the rules of each. Because of this many people make up their own type of house rules (some very strange) and others then presume that it's the proper way of playing etc., and it just goes on from there.

I've seen it happen so many times that it just gets ridiculous.

celticfc

Just noticed something...

In the poll it says 3 fouls on the black and in your post it says 3 strokes, which is it?

red_ice

celticfc wrote: »

I've never heard of this "rule" & I'd be of the same opinion as the people that the OP was playing against.

So you think that they can just play my teams balls 3 times forcing us to get two shots, and leaving us to have to play the black?

How would you end that situation? These rules make the game flow, not linger. Theres nothing more annoying than a game thats going nowhere.

What would you do in that situation?

Michael Collins

I have heard of the "rule", most people play that way in my experience. I myself don't play it as I try to stick as close as possible to the official 8-ball rules, and as far as I know there's no such rule in the official game.

Could you not have used your two shots to try and remove your ball from the vicinity of the pocket (cushin first if necessary)?

If you really think about it, it isn't a great "rule". The other player had nearly won, and you turned it into a situation whereby he couldn't win - which isn't really fair.

red_ice

apologies - fouls on the black

ArmaniJeanss

Is there not a set of printed 'house rules' where you play?

To answer your question I've never heard of nor played that rule, and in the situation you've described I would declare a 'stalemate/rerack' as it appears that neither side can win the game.

By the way you shouldn't assume that the rules you play are the 'correct rules', as there are about *846 variations of pool rules in this country.
My favourite was a country pub where you had to pot the black into the opposite pocket to where you'd potted your last spot/stripe, and they genuinely seemed to think that this was the correct rule.


* rough guess !

Michael Collins

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

...My favourite was a country pub where you had to pot the black into the opposite pocket to where you'd potted your last spot/stripe, and they genuinely seemed to think that this was the correct rule...

Ha, what a crazy rule. Very much designed to help the weaker player.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

I've heard of that rule on the black about the 3 fouls, and anybody I have played in the last few years knew it aswell!

Rowley Birkin QC

I've heard of it aswell but never seen it enforced or had anyone try to use it in a game I've played.

arnhem44

heres a link to the Irish pool associations website showing the rules

http://www.irishpoolassociation.ie/Rules.htm

red_ice

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

To answer your question I've never heard of nor played that rule, and in the situation you've described I would declare a 'stalemate/rerack' as it appears that neither side can win the game.

By the way you shouldn't assume that the rules you play are the 'correct rules', as there are about *846 variations of pool rules in this country.
My favourite was a country pub where you had to pot the black into the opposite pocket to where you'd potted your last spot/stripe, and they genuinely seemed to think that this was the correct rule.


* rough guess !

Im not assuming that my rules are correct. The rules i play with make sense and make for a fairer more tactical game thats all. A stalemate/rerack is imo a waste of time when if said rule is enforced it means both teams have to play a good game to win.

ArmaniJeanss

red_ice wrote: »

A stalemate/rerack is imo a waste of time when if said rule is enforced it means both teams have to play a good game to win.

In the situation you've described its impossible for your opponent to win (if as I understand it you've got the black surrounded such that he can't hit it ?).

So how can your opponent now 'play a good game to win'?

Out of interest I don't see anything in the link posted by Arnhem to suggest that this rule is in the IrishPoolAssociation rules (I've searched the link for 'three' and '3' and haven't spotted it?)

arnhem44

The first thing about the Irish Pool Associations website is its the official rules if you were playing in a tournament,these rules come from the World Pool Assosciation,if you look on the link and look up the impossible shot then it will tell you what should be done in the senario of the original posters opponents dilema.Its widely known that theres many variations in the rules wherever you go.As we all know rules vary up and down the country when it comes to club or pub play and lets face it most of us have come upon these problems at some stage.Right been right there should be a poster up on the wall stating the rules to save any agro afterwards.As I said there is rule variations and here is something I found on Wiki just to add to the confusion


Three-foul rule

In Irish standard pool and English billiards, it is a loss of game if a player commits a third foul while shooting at the black.

red_ice

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

In the situation you've described its impossible for your opponent to win (if as I understand it you've got the black surrounded such that he can't hit it ?).

So how can your opponent now 'play a good game to win'?

Out of interest I don't see anything in the link posted by Arnhem to suggest that this rule is in the IrishPoolAssociation rules (I've searched the link for 'three' and '3' and haven't spotted it?)

Thats the point, it forces the game to end. I played what is in all honesty a fantastic shot, which if anyone who knew the rule would be impressed with. It took alot of chalk and strutting around the table to plan the shot and when it came off the lads just didnt know what to do.

Its not impossible to win the game, im sure if he hit it at what ever angle he could have magically knocked the black out - stranger things have happened in the game of pool.

arnhem44 wrote: »

The first thing about the Irish Pool Associations website is its the official rules if you were playing in a tournament,these rules come from the World Pool Assosciation,if you look on the link and look up the impossible shot then it will tell you what should be done in the senario of the original posters opponents dilema.Its widely known that theres many variations in the rules wherever you go.As we all know rules vary up and down the country when it comes to club or pub play and lets face it most of us have come upon these problems at some stage.Right been right there should be a poster up on the wall stating the rules to save any agro afterwards.As I said there is rule variations and here is something I found on Wiki just to add to the confusion


Three-foul rule

In Irish standard pool and English billiards, it is a loss of game if a player commits a third foul while shooting at the black.

On another note...

I've always thought that chipping the ball was fair game. Everyone that i played that night didnt agree.. i should show them this clip

celticfc

red_ice wrote: »

So you think that they can just play my teams balls 3 times forcing us to get two shots, and leaving us to have to play the black?

How would you end that situation? These rules make the game flow, not linger. Theres nothing more annoying than a game thats going nowhere.

What would you do in that situation?

True enough, but it would probably end up in a stalemate and a re-rack be called.

red_ice wrote: »

Its not impossible to win the game, im sure if he hit it at what ever angle he could have magically knocked the black out - stranger things have happened in the game of pool.

An earthquake may have done the job or another sort of act of God.

ArmaniJeanss

red_ice wrote: »

On another note...

I've always thought that chipping the ball was fair game. Everyone that i played that night didnt agree.. i should show them this clip

Chip shot is a no-no, jump shot is allowed in 9ball pool and is a thing of beauty.

Most clubs/pubs don't allow it though as 99% of people can't do it properly and the risk of damage to the cloth is to much.

red_ice

its so much fun tho

RocketRonnie

I always thought this would be a re-rack!!
The player on the black has no possible shot on, surely that 3-shot rule doesn't apply in this situation.....

premierstone

Its a re-rack everyday of the week and methinks this thread is more of a boast than anything :rolleyes:

red_ice

premierstone wrote: »

Its a re-rack everyday of the week and methinks this thread is more of a boast than anything :rolleyes:

How is explaining a shot a boast. Muppet.

Dave147

You only lose when both players are on the black. If there are still yellows or reds on the table then you can foul on the black ten times and the game is still not over.

red_ice

Dave147 wrote: »

You only lose when both players are on the black. If there are still yellows or reds on the table then you can foul on the black ten times and the game is still not over.

From the looks of it it seems that if you foul 3 times in a row at any stage in the game its game over, it just so happens i've only witnessed it on the black.

k123flynn666

that rule is not true, there is no rule sayin u only have three shots to hit the black if u snookered. my advice check up the offical rules.....

whirlwind

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

My favourite was a country pub where you had to pot the black into the opposite pocket to where you'd potted your last spot/stripe, and they genuinely seemed to think that this was the correct rule.

There is a rule which i have found quite widespread the pocket you pot your last ball in you have to pot the black into as well- last ball last pocket its called. Put if your opponent has already taken a pocket and you pot your last ball into the same pocket you switch to the one on the opposite side of the table. I have no idea where it came from and personally i hate it and don't play it

Regards the three fouls on the black again i have found this pretty common when i play but both players have to on the black then it stops the game going on and on.


But in any game, especially a money the rules should be agreed first.

The amount if times i have had people disputing rules.
the most common ones being over

-people taking 2 shots on the black - no
-playing backtable- no
-the 3 fouls on the black- if agreed
-the last pocket rule- not if i can help it
-2 shots carrying after a pot - yes
-freeball-yes except theres one bar where i play pool were the owner will not allow much to my digust
of course not everyone agrees with want i think but thats just the thing i have always played for whatever reason

the best think of course when playing with new people is just to ask at the start over the most common dispute rules because the variations can just be daft

I don't like that ''no back table'' rule, more so when somebody says it out after they've sunk the white:rolleyes:

There are two more common rules that come up over here.

One is the ''Two shots carry?'', the odd place won't let you, load of crap really, how is it two shots then?, not your fault if your capable of potting the first attempt.... it's seldom you'll encounter it though.

The second been ''Pick a pocket'' on the black, where you have to say what pocket your going to pot the black in, if you sink it in another you lose, your not stuck with though, just for each shot, another stupid rule and more common then the other two.

I've never read the official rules but would hazard a guess that picking a pocket and two shots not carrying are made up rules?..... what about the back table one though?

All to me just seem like cop outs to give the fouling/weaker player more chances to win, the football equivalent would be, been forced to take a penalty with your weaker foot(even though you should be given the advantage and not your opponent)...

celticfc

gilberto_eire wrote: »

I don't like that ''no back table'' rule, more so when somebody says it out after they've sunk the white:rolleyes:

In many places I've played, we've just used "no back on black" where you only have no backtable when playing the 8 ball.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

One is the ''Two shots carry?'', the odd place won't let you, load of crap really, how is it two shots then?, not your fault if your capable of potting the first attempt.... it's seldom you'll encounter it though.

I think it increases the skill factor to be honest when shots don't carry, i.e. you use your "free shot" to set the balls up for a clearance like removing one from the cussion etc. When shots do carry it would tend to favour the less skilled/weaker player as he has an opertunity to miss a ball.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

The second been ''Pick a pocket'' on the black, where you have to say what pocket your going to pot the black in, if you sink it in another you lose, your not stuck with though, just for each shot, another stupid rule and more common then the other two.

It's quite rare when this rule isn't played in many areas, it stops players from just lashing the 8 ball around the table playing for flukes. It's never nice when a game is won on a fluke (be it intentional or not).

I've played "stick on a pocket" before aswell (where you have to play the same pocket each time) and this can be very difficult, but it can make more black ball games but it can also drag on a bit. I'm not a huge fan.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

All to me just seem like cop outs to give the fouling/weaker player more chances to win, the football equivalent would be, been forced to take a penalty with your weaker foot(even though you should be given the advantage and not your opponent)...

I think they give the skilled/better player the advantage to be honest, but that's just my point-of-view.

premierstone

Celtic in relation to the ''shots dont carry'; rule, do you not find that when this is in force it firstly encourages intentional fouls and secondly doesnt punish a foul sufficently? I would agree with gilberto here tbh and it annoys me in places when they inforce it.

Back table I have no real issue with it but if pushed I think it should be allowed and I've never seen anyplace that didnt allow a free-ball, is that common in some places??

celticfc

premierstone wrote: »

Celtic in relation to the ''shots dont carry'; rule, do you not find that when this is in force it firstly encourages intentional fouls and secondly doesnt punish a foul sufficently?

Perhaps it does, I've never really noticed. Some might say that the american way of ball-in-hand after a foul instead of two shots punishes the foul moreso, it's all a matter of opinion I suppose.

Intentional fouls can certainly be involved frequently when no back-table is enforced. It's just part of the game really, albeit not a nice part.

ArmaniJeanss

celticfc wrote: »

I think they give the skilled/better player the advantage to be honest, but that's just my point-of-view.

In theory they make it more difficult for the stronger player as for example 'shots not carrying' makes a runout more difficult.
In practice however the stronger players will interpret and react to any quirky rule better than a weaker player and results will tend to be the same over a long sample.

In my opinion all these weirder rules (no back table, shots don't carry, stick pocket, only oneshot after a foul on the black) were all artificially created to prolong the game, to increase the chances of players getting value for their 20p (or whatever a game costs nowadays).

Slightly OT.
Looking at the 8-ball World Championships on Sky last night, they were playing the 'must hit cushion' rule, I've never seen this played in Ireland in pub games???

Derrence

My understanding of da rule is that it wud hav 2 b a re-rack, when u can not make contact with the black ball. In the fairness of the game i think.

Muppet Man

I dont play pool anymore cos while I am a competent snooker player I got sick of getting beaten by total imbeciles playing pool. More often than not it was the variation of rules were beating me combined with rediculous luck by opponents and bad luck by me.

The "local" table I used to play on (20 years ago) was - no carrying shots, stick to the pocket on the black and no playing back the table and no intentional foul strokes (how do you measure intentional?)

It was on this rediculous table that I had a black in the jaws of the pocket and my oponent (4 reds left) managed to cover the black in a nice semi cirlce of reds. It was impossible to even hit the black. He called an intentional foul stroke and I lost the game. I had to leave the pub, I was almost apoplectic. The variation of "house" rules is sickening - I've played follow the last ball on the black and I've played opposite pocket on the black. I've never in my life played "3 fouls" of any description (but I have heard people asking for clarification of it before a game starts, "how many fouls on the black, 3?").

Ever since, I always ask for a description of house rules before I sart. Invariably now, it is carrying shots and any pocket for the black and playing back table allowed. When both players are on the black, a foul by one player on the black means the other person wins. When there are are balls left on the table... any number of fouls are allowed on the black with 2 shots to the opponent.

Muppet Man.

fintonie

I never heard of this rule and being playing along time, it sounds a bit Americanized

Gumble01

There are two pool organisations the IPA which the world championship was on sky during the week, and the European Blackball Association , in both potting the black does not matter as long as you hit it and put it in a pocket, if you are on the balck and you opponent fouls you will get 2 shots. In IPA rules if your opponent fouls you get 2 shots which carry, in European Blackball Association you get 2 shots which do not carry but you can lift the white ball up and place it behind the baulk line and play (pot) your opponents ball. In these rules there is also a skill shot, once you hit your own ball first and pot it you can pot your opponents ball in the same shot also if your on your last colour you can do this with the black ball. Blackball rules are here http://www.ebapool.com/downloads.php?cat_id=2
IPA rules cant find atm but site is here http://www.propool.org/

Brabazone

Hi guys never posted on the pool forum but I have been playing the game for years so I thought I would add my two cents.

Have seen all those weired rules that you have mentioned but for me I play these rules.

1 Two shots carry
2 Free ball on any ball including the black, must nominate ball.
3 back table
4 only nominate pocket on black ball and pocket can change every shot.
5 one shot on the black but only because my local says so.
6 no hop shots because most people cant play them.
7 white ball must make contact with a cushion if playing a snooker, any twit can roll up to a ball, there's no skill there, IMO this rule should be enforced everywhere.
8 three foul rule on the black but only if both players are on the black.

As for the first post I have seen this happen so many times and no-matter what way you look at it its a re-rack everyday of the week. Basically the problem here is that the player has an impossible shot because his black ball is totally covered. I understand that the shot you played was probably a outstanding one but it does not change the end result. I have played this shot myself as a means of getting a re-rack because I could not win. I have always accepted the rule that it is a re-rack no-matter what ball I'm on.

Now I have a question for you guys basically because its the only rule no one could ever answer for me with any degree of certainty

If you are snookered on your ball by means of the jaws of the pocket and your opponent has just fouled, do you have a free ball or do you have to attempt to play you own ball and risk giving a foul shot.?

ROCKMAN

Lads its simple if you're playing away from your local pub/club, When you're racking up ask about the house rules :eek: FOR-ARMED etc etc


As for the question about cushion snooker , Free ball is what I always played.

Jackobyte

I hadn't heard of 3 foul rule until Irish College this year but it makes sense... When you're playin stick pocket it does anyway... We were playin stick pocket and we had both picked opposite corner pockets... Then, purely accidentally, I put the black on a pocket which neither of us had picked... It was hanging over pocket... Neither of us had any fouls previously so the person had to draw the fouls before me... So I ended up winning by default... Otherwise neither of us would ever had hit the black...

Derrence wrote: »

My understanding of da rule is that it wud hav 2 b a re-rack, when u can not make contact with the black ball. In the fairness of the game i think.

Although this seems like a fair point too...^^^

Dave147

Brabazone wrote: »

Hi guys never posted on the pool forum but I have been playing the game for years so I thought I would add my two cents.

Have seen all those weired rules that you have mentioned but for me I play these rules.

1 Two shots carry
2 Free ball on any ball including the black, must nominate ball.
3 back table
4 only nominate pocket on black ball and pocket can change every shot.
5 one shot on the black but only because my local says so.
6 no hop shots because most people cant play them.
7 white ball must make contact with a cushion if playing a snooker, any twit can roll up to a ball, there's no skill there, IMO this rule should be enforced everywhere.
8 three foul rule on the black but only if both players are on the black.

As for the first post I have seen this happen so many times and no-matter what way you look at it its a re-rack everyday of the week. Basically the problem here is that the player has an impossible shot because his black ball is totally covered. I understand that the shot you played was probably a outstanding one but it does not change the end result. I have played this shot myself as a means of getting a re-rack because I could not win. I have always accepted the rule that it is a re-rack no-matter what ball I'm on.

Now I have a question for you guys basically because its the only rule no one could ever answer for me with any degree of certainty

If you are snookered on your ball by means of the jaws of the pocket and your opponent has just fouled, do you have a free ball or do you have to attempt to play you own ball and risk giving a foul shot.?

Your rules look like a variant of World Rules, however there is two shots on the black at all times, If one person is on the black then it's hardly fair that his opponent who still has colours left on the table can foul away "accidentally", it's only stupid backwards crap pub rules which have this and this no back table carry on. Where-o-where did that tripe come from?