Muslims view on Jews

markopantelic

Obviously the jewish population here isn't that big, but would you be ok with being friends with one? My best friend is Muslim, and I'm Jewish, we get on great but he always telling me that he would prefer if I wasn't Jewish.

For whatever reason I don't find it offensive or anything but just wanna know the general concensus.

InFront

Jews are considered ahlul-kitab, people of the book. We share a certain tradition and the Qur'an says what can be translated as to say:

Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo ! Allah loveth the just dealers. Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them (All) such are wrong doers.” - (Al-Mumtahanah: 8-9)

Some people like to quote a different verse (not above) from the Holy Qur'an as saying what means in English not to take the Jews as friends. the Qur'an (as far as I know, not being a scholar) doesn't actually say that so much as not to rely upon Jews and Christians as Leader-Protectors.

When your friend says he would prefer if you were not of a different religion maybe he means that he wishes you could both share in Islam as opposed to simply being opposed to your beliefs for the sake of it.

Zaynzma

I have non-Muslim friends, it wouldn't any more of an issue if one of them was Jewish rather than Christian or athiest. There's a lot of similarities with Judaism and Islam, and in the practice of the respective religions (eg we can eat their kosher meat because it's slaughtered the same way).

I do feel quite strongly about the Israeli occupation of Palestine, so I don't think I could be friends with someone who was a great supporter of Israel whether they were Jewish or Christian or anything else. Not that I would be hostile to them or rude in any way, but I couldn't bring myself to love them as a buddy.

That's the only reason I can think of for possible Muslim/Jewish tension. There is nothing in the religion of Islam itself to prevent treating Jewish friends and neighbors very well.

wes

Have no issues with Jews or there Religion. In fact Judaism, as mentioned above is very similar to Islam, its probably shares more similarities with our Religion than Christianity.

Sonic_exyouth

markopantelic wrote: »

Obviously the jewish population here isn't that big, but would you be ok with being friends with one? My best friend is Muslim, and I'm Jewish, we get on great but he always telling me that he would prefer if I wasn't Jewish.

For whatever reason I don't find it offensive or anything but just wanna know the general concensus.

In a word, Israel.

In 3 words, still no palestine.

You cannot seperate the hostilities of the middle east, even though it seems so irrelevent, to the daily meanderings of jewish-muslim connections.
When it the christians who had the land, the general muslim-christian understanding was a it's lowest too.

InFront

Not all Jews believe in Zionism and nor do they all take pleasure in IDF actions. If you are not familiar with him already, look up Norman Finkelstein, he just hapens to be a famous example but they do exist:).

Zaynzma

Met some Jewish ladies on the demonstration against Israel in London in January. Also noticed boards with signs like 'Jews against Zionism' there. If it's a subject that interests anyone, they can check out the Neturei Karta website, a group of orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism and the state of Israel for religious reasons.
They're often photographed at demonstrations burning the Israeli flag, it really freaks people out because obviously they are wearing all the traditional orthodox Jewish clothes and hairstyles.

Sonic_exyouth

InFront wrote: »

Not all Jews believe in Zionism and nor do they all take pleasure in IDF actions. If you are not familiar with him already, look up Norman Finkelstein, he just hapens to be a famous example but they do exist:).

True, and not all jews believe in god.

But, the qustion related to the muslim antipathy to jews and the reason for that is, solely, Israel.

Bat_Ami

markopantelic wrote: »

Obviously the jewish population here isn't that big, but would you be ok with being friends with one? My best friend is Muslim, and I'm Jewish, we get on great but he always telling me that he would prefer if I wasn't Jewish.

Aha, shalom there! I had the exact same issue. I was friends with a Muslim guy and we'd chat away at lunchbreaks but when I made the decision to convert he didn't want any of it. It's a pity because he was a lovely and very personable fellow and I never saw his religion as an issue. I was fairly offended to be honest, because I never bought into the hype around Muslims and I've always tried to have an open mind with other religions in general.
If he really is your friend, he shouldn't see your religion as a big deal and certainly shouldn't say that he wishes you weren't a Jew. That's like me walking up to one of my friends and saying "gee, you're very nice and all, but I sure do wish you weren't black" - crazy.

Zaynzma wrote: »

They're often photographed at demonstrations burning the Israeli flag, it really freaks people out because obviously they are wearing all the traditional orthodox Jewish clothes and hairstyles.

I really despise it when people burn other countries' flags- and particularly the Israeli flag. It's pretty much saying to everyone "I'm petty and I don't have the intelligence to use words to make an argument so I think I'll just act irrationally and try to shock people."

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

True, and not all jews believe in god.

Yeah it's not a requirement for the more liberal streams of Judaism like conservative, reform and (surprise surprise) secular Judasim

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

But, the qustion related to the muslim antipathy to jews and the reason for that is, solely, Israel.

My personal belief on Israel is that the violence that's happening there is just completely wrong and should not be happening- and doesn't have a mandate from either side to use that kind of brutality. Also, I don't agree with the illegal settlements being built by the Israelis on Palestianian land. However I do have a number of friends who are / have been in the IDF and I can assure you that they're not monsters. A lot of the problems come from bad decisions being made by higher authorities.
However, I do believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland and many people are forgetting the history behind the conflict and a lot seem unable to recognise that hamas and bad decisions on Palestine's behalf have worsened the problem considerably. Palestine was offered their land (which is a lot bigger than it is now) after WW2 and while Israel accepted the offer, the Palestinians rejected it and went to war with Israel and lost, leaving them with the much smaller Gaza Strip and West Bank. They then went to war with Israel again, losing another considerable amount of land in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as losing Jerusalem.
Now Hamas (ie a terrorist organisation) have been democractically elected and are using violence for political aims. There has since been a very bloody civil war, an economy meltdown and the standard of living (especially in Gaza) has gone wayyy downhill. I just don't know if they are ready to get independence. Will giving the likes of Hamas more power solve their problems? Or are we going to be looking at a complete meltdown as they try and establish their seperateness from Jewish Israel by become more extreme in their Islamic ideals and impose harsh laws which impinge on peoples' human rights? It doesn't seem the best option to me, at least not until Palestine gets some stable leadership in order.

BTW, is it true that the Koran says Jews are apes and swine?

wes

Bat_Ami wrote: »

However, I do believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland and many people are forgetting the history behind the conflict and a lot seem unable to recognise that hamas and bad decisions on Palestine's behalf have worsened the problem considerably. Palestine was offered their land (which is a lot bigger than it is now) after WW2 and while Israel accepted the offer, the Palestinians rejected it and went to war with Israel and lost, leaving them with the much smaller Gaza Strip and West Bank. They then went to war with Israel again, losing another considerable amount of land in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as losing Jerusalem.

The Palestinians had every right to reject Zionists from Europe. They are the indigenous population, and a group of Europeans coming and demanding there own state is an invasion. It should also be noted that the father of Zionism Theodre Hertzl (probably mangled the spelling there), made it pretty clear the only way a Jewish state could be created was by kicking out the Palestinians. The Palestinians were defending themselves plain and simple.

Also, the land was always the Palestinians, the British and other racist Western powers had no right to give away land that did not belong to them.

It was the Zionists who were the aggressors and they had no right to go to someone else's country, with the express intention of colonizing it and ethnically cleansing the indigenous population. To present the situation, as just being Jews having a right to a state is simply disingenous, there were people already in Palestine, who had every right to reject the creation of a state of Europeans against there will.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Now Hamas (ie a terrorist organisation) have been democractically elected and are using violence for political aims. There has since been a very bloody civil war, an economy meltdown and the standard of living (especially in Gaza) has gone wayyy downhill. I just don't know if they are ready to get independence. Will giving the likes of Hamas more power solve their problems? Or are we going to be looking at a complete meltdown as they try and establish their seperateness from Jewish Israel by become more extreme in their Islamic ideals and impose harsh laws which impinge on peoples' human rights? It doesn't seem the best option to me, at least not until Palestine gets some stable leadership in order.

Israeli's elected Ariel Sharon, the man that Israel's own Kahan report found has a personal responsiblity for Sabra and Shatilla and lets not forget the current elected leaders. Also, all of Israel early leaders were terrorists themselves. So I think it a bit rich for you to think the Palestinians aren't ready for independence, based on who they elected. The various leaders of Israel are quite frankly no better than Hamas, and they have used the IDF to engage in state terrorism, then there is the siege against 1.5 million people of Gaza and dropping white phosphrous on peoples heads.

Also, Israel regularly violates Palestinian Human Rights all the damn time. Its funny that you seem to think that Hamas are the sole issue here. Hamas, are basically a mirror image of the Zionists that they hate so much. I personally find it funny when Israel goes on about Hamas, when what Hamas wants to do to Israel, is what Zionists did to the Palestinians. So basically, as far as I am concerned a plague on both there houses.

Sonic_exyouth

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Aha, shalom there! I had the exact same issue. I was friends with a Muslim guy and we'd chat away at lunchbreaks but when I made the decision to convert he didn't want any of it. It's a pity because he was a lovely and very personable fellow and I never saw his religion as an issue. I was fairly offended to be honest, because I never bought into the hype around Muslims and I've always tried to have an open mind with other religions in general.
If he really is your friend, he shouldn't see your religion as a big deal and certainly shouldn't say that he wishes you weren't a Jew. That's like me walking up to one of my friends and saying "gee, you're very nice and all, but I sure do wish you weren't black" - crazy.


I really despise it when people burn other countries' flags- and particularly the Israeli flag. It's pretty much saying to everyone "I'm petty and I don't have the intelligence to use words to make an argument so I think I'll just act irrationally and try to shock people."


Yeah it's not a requirement for the more liberal streams of Judaism like conservative, reform and (surprise surprise) secular Judasim


My personal belief on Israel is that the violence that's happening there is just completely wrong and should not be happening- and doesn't have a mandate from either side to use that kind of brutality. Also, I don't agree with the illegal settlements being built by the Israelis on Palestianian land. However I do have a number of friends who are / have been in the IDF and I can assure you that they're not monsters. A lot of the problems come from bad decisions being made by higher authorities.
However, I do believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland and many people are forgetting the history behind the conflict and a lot seem unable to recognise that hamas and bad decisions on Palestine's behalf have worsened the problem considerably. Palestine was offered their land (which is a lot bigger than it is now) after WW2 and while Israel accepted the offer, the Palestinians rejected it and went to war with Israel and lost, leaving them with the much smaller Gaza Strip and West Bank. They then went to war with Israel again, losing another considerable amount of land in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as losing Jerusalem.
Now Hamas (ie a terrorist organisation) have been democractically elected and are using violence for political aims. There has since been a very bloody civil war, an economy meltdown and the standard of living (especially in Gaza) has gone wayyy downhill. I just don't know if they are ready to get independence. Will giving the likes of Hamas more power solve their problems? Or are we going to be looking at a complete meltdown as they try and establish their seperateness from Jewish Israel by become more extreme in their Islamic ideals and impose harsh laws which impinge on peoples' human rights? It doesn't seem the best option to me, at least not until Palestine gets some stable leadership in order.

I don't really want to get into a political debate here, just saying that current Muslim antipathy towards Jews, to whatever degree it exists, exists solely because of Israel. When The Israeli/Palestinian issue is solved, that antipathy will subceed.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

BTW, is it true that the Koran says Jews are apes and swine?

It does not say "the jews are pigs and monkeys", what it says in
7.166 - is that some folks within the 12 tribes ignored the sabbath, altered and ignored their holy texts and generally abandoned faith. They are "as apes".. make of that what you will, but 7.170 confirms "As to those who hold fast by the Book (Torah) and establish regular prayer,- never shall We suffer the reward of the righteous to perish."

Pretty much the same story with 2.65
"And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Bat_Ami

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

I don't really want to get into a political debate here, just saying that current Muslim antipathy towards Jews, to whatever degree it exists, exists solely because of Israel. When The Israeli/Palestinian issue is solved, that antipathy will subceed.

True, it will subceed but I can't imagine that Muslim's hatred of the Jews will ever completely go away (then again, maybe it would be idealistic thinking to say it ever would.) For example, Obama has gone into the Muslim world promising peace and better friendships and whatnot and while many Muslim's anger towards Americans may slightly subside, there will always be a number of militant groups who simply won't let it go.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

It does not say "the jews are pigs and monkeys", what it says in 7.166 - is that some folks within the 12 tribes ignored the sabbath, altered and ignored their holy texts and generally abandoned faith. They are "as apes".. make of that what you will, but 7.170 confirms "As to those who hold fast by the Book (Torah) and establish regular prayer,- never shall We suffer the reward of the righteous to perish."
Pretty much the same story with 2.65
"And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

ohhh okay, thanks for that, it's just that if anyone gets an English translation of the Koran and looks at the index at the back, the topics under Jews are "became apes and swine" , "cursed" , "greedy of life" , "slew prophets" , "unbelief and blasphemy of" , "took usury" and probably worst of all "write the book with their own hands". So as you can imagine it's a little offputting if someone doesn't explain the context of these statements fully!

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians had every right to reject Zionists from Europe. They are the indigenous population, and a group of Europeans coming and demanding there own state is an invasion.

Invading countries... isn't that what the prophet Muhammad did for much of his adult life? Isn't that exactly how Islam actually spread? With that kind of thinking, Pakistan and Bangladesh should move out the band wagon and the entire populations of the Americas should give the land back to the Native Americans and nearly every country needs to set down tools and get out of there.
Invasion and capture of land is all part of the natural process of land ownership and Islam most definitely isn't unaware of this fact. Muslim scholars all agree that the Arab Islamic armies attacked all the Persian lands and part of the Byzantine territories and occupied them. They could tell you how these armies took over Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, and, of course, Libya and all of Africa until the Muslim army reached the borders of China and the regions of Iran. Even Spain had fallen into their hands for hundreds of years. They proceeded then toward France, but they were stopped in the battle of Tours at the hands of Charles Martel. These wars were offensive wars of the first degree.
Of course they are allowed to defend themselves- that's fair war tactics, but once they lose (twice) it's rather time to stop the suicide bombings, hijackings and all that and make the most of the land they actually do have and establish a stable democracy.

wes wrote: »

It should also be noted that the father of Zionism Theodre Hertzl (probably mangled the spelling there), made it pretty clear the only way a Jewish state could be created was by kicking out the Palestinians. The Palestinians were defending themselves plain and simple.

Anywhere that the Jews were going to establish a state was going to be populated by other people unless they went to the most crazily inhospitable place on the planet. The EU gave them a deal, they rejected it and chose to go to war twice. Even your Koran explicitly says, "Allah promises you much booty (spoils of war) that you will capture" (Chapter 48:20). Now I acknowledge that they want to defend their land but it's one thing to be defending land and it's quite another to start hijacking airplanes going to Israel and whatnot.

wes wrote: »

Also, the land was always the Palestinians, the British and other racist Western powers had no right to give away land that did not belong to them.

Actually, the land wasn't always the Palestinians'. In "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" by Dr. Abu Zayd Shalabi he discusses the Islamic wars which were initiated by the four caliphs who succeeded Muhammad and who, at the same time, are his favored relatives; Abu Bakr, ’Umar, ’Uthman and ’Ali. On pages 35-38, Dr. Abu Zayd remarks, "Muhammad had prepared an army to invade the borders of Syria. When Muhammad died Abu Bakr sent an army headed by Usama Ibn Zayd and ’Umar Ibn al-Khattab. The army marched towards southern Palestine and invaded some parts of the land, frightened the people and captured some booty."
It is clear that Jews were the first inhabitants of Palestine because Judaism predates Islam by approx. 1,000 years.

wes wrote: »

It was the Zionists who were the aggressors and they had no right to go to someone else's country, with the express intention of colonizing it and ethnically cleansing the indigenous population..

As I explained above, Muhammad and his men were well used to being the aggressors tresspassing on other peoples' countries. Muhammad is known to have ethnically cleansed the Jews from Medina- for more info see http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2005/08/mohammeds-ethnic-cleansing.html At least the Jews weren't so cruel as to systematically execute them by the sword! They were given their land, rebelled and lost even more land- it's time to accept that a war has taken place, the Jews won and the land is now theirs.

wes wrote: »

Israeli's elected Ariel Sharon, the man that Israel's own Kahan report found has a personal responsiblity for Sabra and Shatilla and lets not forget the current elected leaders. Also, all of Israel early leaders were terrorists themselves. So I think it a bit rich for you to think the Palestinians aren't ready for independence, based on who they elected. The various leaders of Israel are quite frankly no better than Hamas, and they have used the IDF to engage in state terrorism, then there is the siege against 1.5 million people of Gaza and dropping white phosphrous on peoples heads.

I have already said that I am completely against any murders of this kind (after all, thou shalt not kill is pretty high up there in the commandment stakes) and that it is totally unacceptable. The Israeli government is far from perfect, but for such a young state it has been managed extremely well and that I will give them. Yet the corruption in Israel is nowhere near as violent as in Palestine and my fear would be that if Palestine was give autonomy, they would see that terrorist tactics paid off and continue this until what will be left? The same applies to the message below- I don't support terrorism on either side.

wes wrote: »

Also, Israel regularly violates Palestinian Human Rights all the damn time. Its funny that you seem to think that Hamas are the sole issue here. Hamas, are basically a mirror image of the Zionists that they hate so much. I personally find it funny when Israel goes on about Hamas, when what Hamas wants to do to Israel, is what Zionists did to the Palestinians. So basically, as far as I am concerned a plague on both there houses.

wes

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Invading countries... isn't that what the prophet Muhammad did for much of his adult life? Isn't that exactly how Islam actually spread?

So? I fail to see the relevance. The Palestinian are the indigenous population. They have always been there. Them changing there Religion doesn't change that.

When Christians ran the place, the majority converted to Christianity. When Muslims ran the place, they converted to Islam. Doesn't change the fact they are the indigenous population.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

With that kind of thinking, Pakistan and Bangladesh should move out the band wagon and the entire populations of the Americas should give the land back to the Native Americans and nearly every country needs to set down tools and get out of there.

Um, what are you talking about? The people of Pakistan and Bangladesh are the indigenous populations of those places. Them changing there religion doesn't mean that magically changes. Also, India as a single country was first a reality under the British, before that it was various warring nations. While, partition was certainly a tragic mess, it does not magically mean that the Pakistani's and Bengali's took anything from anyone, as they are the indigenous populace.

As for the Native American's, it would be impossible for them to get all there land back, but at least they have equal rights and the right to live anywhere within the borders of there own country and also they are not currently being murdered bombed and are not currently being dispossessed.

So your hardly comparing like with like at all.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Invasion and capture of land is all part of the natural process of land ownership and Islam most definitely isn't unaware of this fact. Muslim scholars all agree that the Arab Islamic armies attacked all the Persian lands and part of the Byzantine territories and occupied them. They could tell you how these armies took over Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, and, of course, Libya and all of Africa until the Muslim army reached the borders of China and the regions of Iran. Even Spain had fallen into their hands for hundreds of years. They proceeded then toward France, but they were stopped in the battle of Tours at the hands of Charles Martel. These wars were offensive wars of the first degree.

What the hell are you talking about? How are the Palestinian magically responsible for all ancient Islamic invasions? Would you hold Jews today responsible for the genocide of the Canaanites?

You are being completely ridiculous here. Nothing you said bears any relevance to anything I said.

Again, the Palestinians are the indigenous population. They have lived there for centuries. Just, because they converted away from Judaism, to Christianity and then Islam, does not change there status.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Of course they are allowed to defend themselves- that's fair war tactics, but once they lose (twice) it's rather time to stop the suicide bombings, hijackings and all that and make the most of the land they actually do have and establish a stable democracy.

Sure, I agree the Palestinians should stop there violence, but they can hardly set up a state as Israel keeps stealing there land. Which is a major problem, as they land they have left isn't enough to create a viable state.

You see Israel is putting major obstacles in the way of the creation of a viable Palestinian state, what with the colonialism. Its simple, Israel is still engaging in aggression as well (continued land theft, attacks, and the siege on Gaza being examples) as the likes of Palestinian groups, such as Hamas. The Palestinians have every right to defends themselves against the IDF as such, which they can be either violent or non-violent, with non-violence being the better option imho. Of course any attacks on civilians are clearly wrong and not legitimate self defense.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Anywhere that the Jews were going to establish a state was going to be populated by other people unless they went to the most crazily inhospitable place on the planet. The EU gave them a deal, they rejected it and chose to go to war twice. Even your Koran explicitly says, "Allah promises you much booty (spoils of war) that you will capture" (Chapter 48:20). Now I acknowledge that they want to defend their land but it's one thing to be defending land and it's quite another to start hijacking airplanes going to Israel and whatnot.

So? Its hardly the Palestinians fault European Jews didn't have a state. I fail to see why they should have to give up there land for foreigners.

There was no EU back then btw, you must mean the UN. Also, it was not there land to give away, just because the theft of Palestinian land was supported by foreign powers, doesn't magically make it right. They defended themselves from a racist colonial invader. Again, they had every right to reject the nonsense from racist western powers. In fact, none of those state would have accepted such a situation themselves.

Also, I was explicitly talking about 1948 and I agree hijacking planes are wrong, but that came much later. Also, as you point out that Israel stole Palestinian land via war, then why do you have an issue with Hamas trying to do the same? Its either ok for both of them to do it, or wrong for both, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also, I think you will find the old testament calls for genocide, if you want start comparing statements from peoples holy books.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Actually, the land wasn't always the Palestinians'. In "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" by Dr. Abu Zayd Shalabi he discusses the Islamic wars which were initiated by the four caliphs who succeeded Muhammad and who, at the same time, are his favored relatives; Abu Bakr, ’Umar, ’Uthman and ’Ali. On pages 35-38, Dr. Abu Zayd remarks, "Muhammad had prepared an army to invade the borders of Syria. When Muhammad died Abu Bakr sent an army headed by Usama Ibn Zayd and ’Umar Ibn al-Khattab. The army marched towards southern Palestine and invaded some parts of the land, frightened the people and captured some booty."
It is clear that Jews were the first inhabitants of Palestine because Judaism predates Islam by approx. 1,000 years.

The first inhabitants were the Canaanites, but the Israelites wiped them out as per the Bible.

Also, the Palestinian are the descendants of the Jewish populace. They just converted to other religions, when various empires invaded the place. Genetic tests have already proven this. So the land was theres and Islamic invasions are completely irrelevant.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

As I explained above, Muhammad and his men were well used to being the aggressors tresspassing on other peoples' countries. Muhammad is known to have ethnically cleansed the Jews from Medina- for more info see http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2005/08/mohammeds-ethnic-cleansing.html At least the Jews weren't so cruel as to systematically execute them by the sword! They were given their land, rebelled and lost even more land- it's time to accept that a war has taken place, the Jews won and the land is now theirs.

What the hell are you talking about again? Nothing you said bear any kind of relevance to anything I said.

Also, read your Bible. Plenty of genocide there, if you want talk about which religious group is crueler. I could easily start quoting the Bible, if you like? It would be completely irrelevant to the current topic, but I think you know that nobody will come out of such a conversation looking good.

It is very simple, the Palestinians are hardly responsible for the situation you describe and to suggest some kind of collective guilt, is nothing short of repugnant. Would you accept that all Jews are responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine or Israel murdering Women and children with white phosphorus? Of course, you wouldn't accept such a repugnant claims of collective resposibility.

The Palestinians, did not rebel, they defended themselves from a invader. If you think it ok to steal other peoples land by force, then you are in no position to say it wrong when the Palestinian try it. If its ok for Zionists to steal land by force, then its ok for Palestinians to try do so, also. I would be against it for everyone, but clearly you seem to think it fine because some people who didn't own the land decided to give it away, which is absurd.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I have already said that I am completely against any murders of this kind (after all, thou shalt not kill is pretty high up there in the commandment stakes) and that it is totally unacceptable. The Israeli government is far from perfect, but for such a young state it has been managed extremely well and that I will give them. Yet the corruption in Israel is nowhere near as violent as in Palestine and my fear would be that if Palestine was give autonomy, they would see that terrorist tactics paid off and continue this until what will be left? The same applies to the message below- I don't support terrorism on either side.

The state of Israel was founded by terrorists and the 10 commandments are irrelevant to the discussion, plus there is plenty in the Bible to contradict them, not least of which is that there is actually more than 10 commandments.

Also, Israel has murdered plenty of Palestinians and to suggest that just because Israel is well run, that some how there murderous rampages and state terrorism is irrelevant is laughable. Israel has used violence to gets it way again and again. You seem to think the Palestinian only use violence to get there way, which is absurd, when Israel is stealing more and more land, again and again. If the Palestinians aren't ready to govern themselves due to there choice of leaders then Israels choice of, mass murderers, racists and terrorists would suggest they aren't ready either. If Israel can elect such people, then so can the Palestinians. I reject your ridiculous double standard.

For the conflict to end, both sides to need to stop the violence and not just the Palestinians.

Its very simple, either the Palestinians get a state or equal rights. The current apartheid situation is simple intolerable and simply indefensible and to defend it in anyway shape or form, is quite simple racism.

Also, the vast majority of your points are irrelevant. I described the motivation of Zionists and you simply ignored this and tried to somehow suggest the Palestinian had it coming, due to some kind of collective guilt, due to some ancient Islamic invasions, which they may or may not have had anything to do with, but I am sure you don't care, as you are looking for anything to excuse the murderous ethnic cleansing to create Israel (the state and not every single person living in it, as a state is an entity unto itself).

Its very simple, it is now well known, that Zionist intended to kick the Palestinians out of there homes. What some ancient Islamic empires did a over a 1000 years ago, has no relevance in this discussion. If someone comes to your country to drive your from your home and you fight them, that is self defense. To call this aggression is absurd nonsense. You have simple refused to address this simple point, and rather try and blame the Palestinians on every single things that Muslims have done wrong through out history instead, to try and justify the actions of Zionist colonists.

**EDIT**
Also, the are Palestinians who aren't Muslims. Quite a few a Christian, are they also responsible for ancient Muslim invasions? Honestly, your have presented one of the most ridiculous arguements to defend Zionism, I have ever heard. Anything else you want to hold the Palestinians responsible for, to justify them being kicked out of there homes?

**FURTHER EDIT**
Also here are some quote from the Bible advocating genocide:
Deuteronomy 7:2 says, "And when the Lord your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them."

Joshua 10:40 states, "So Joshua smote the whole land; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

Now, those quotes are completely irrelevant to the discussion, but seeing as you are rather insistent on bring up such quotes, I taught what the hell, may as well get in on the act. I could easily make the same absurd argument you are trying to make, but seeing as that I know that those 2 quotes are irrelevant, as not all Zionists believe in the Bible (even among believers not all would take the above literally, or consider it valid in this day and age) and quite a few more secularly minded and as such, it make sense to judge them on there own ideology and there own actions and not something some of there ancestors may or may not have done.

Bat_Ami

wes wrote: »

So? I fail to see the relevance. The Palestinian are the indigenous population. They have always been there. Them changing there Religion doesn't change that.

When Christians ran the place, the majority converted to Christianity. When Muslims ran the place, they converted to Islam. Doesn't change the fact they are the indigenous population.

Of course the fact that Muhammad invaded lands is relevant. The only difference between what he did and what happened when Israel was formated is that the Jews didn't put pressure on the indigenous population (through taxes, the sword or otherwise) to convert. Would that have been more acceptable to you?

'Indigenous' doesn't necessarily mean that they own the place- ownership of land is a constantly evolving thing, you can't simply say "this is my land, because I got here first" for the simple reason that unless they've been there since the stone age, they haven't been there first. That's what happens when people lose wars- they lose land fair and square. Native Americans, Aborigines etc are technically the 'indigenous' people of their countries, yet it is still widely accepted that they had land and lost it. People would be horrified if these indigenous people started bombing and hijacking in an effort to get the land back.

wes wrote: »

Um, what are you talking about? The people of Pakistan and Bangladesh are the indigenous populations of those places. Them changing there religion doesn't mean that magically changes. Also, India as a single country was first a reality under the British, before that it was various warring nations. While, partition was certainly a tragic mess, it does not magically mean that the Pakistani's and Bengali's took anything from anyone, as they are the indigenous populace.

Well if we're going to get technical about who really belongs there, the Dravidians are the 'indigenous' people of these regions and were pushed down by Indo-Europeans, therefore they weren't the 'indigenous' people.

wes wrote: »

As for the Native American's, it would be impossible for them to get all there land back, but at least they have equal rights and the right to live anywhere within the borders of there own country and also they are not currently being murdered bombed and are not currently being dispossessed.

So your hardly comparing like with like at all.

So if we made it impossible for the Palestinians to get their land back, it'd be all good so? I don't agree with people being murdered and not allowed to move around and I don't think it's a necessity for Israel to be ONLY Jewish people, but it's not a one-way street and there's plenty murdering and bombing going on from the Palestinian side. Perhaps if they weren't using their own people as human shields and hiding like cowards in civilian areas, there wouldn't be as many deaths of innocent people. The simple fact is that because Israel has such small numbers and is literally surrounded by enemies, their only real form of defence is complete out-in-out attack and this tactic has its concequences.

wes wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? How are the Palestinian magically responsible for all ancient Islamic invasions? Would you hold Jews today responsible for the genocide of the Canaanites?

I'm not saying they're responsible in the slightest- I'm just saying that it seems a tad contradictory that if Muhammad does something it's all well and good, but if the Jews do the same thing yet are MUCH more humane in their treatment of the inhabitants, people go haywire

wes wrote: »

Sure, I agree the Palestinians should stop there violence, but they can hardly set up a state as Israel keeps stealing there land. Which is a major problem, as they land they have left isn't enough to create a viable state.

You know where there is lots of land? The entire Muslim nation. It's massive. Absolutely huge and a thousand time larger than the extremely modest Israel. What's wrong with that land? G-d has given this land to the Jews and that's how it's meant to be. If they want to live among the Jews, do, but don't go demanding a seperate entity and try to split it.

wes wrote: »

Of course any attacks on civilians are clearly wrong and not legitimate self defense.

Attacks on civilians are wrong, hands down. No disagreement there.

wes wrote: »

So? Its hardly the Palestinians fault European Jews didn't have a state. I fail to see why they should have to give up there land for foreigners.

Because they defeated them perhaps? Israel wasn't just handed on a plate, the palmach fought a lot of bloody wars against the Palestinians and won- over and over. There comes a time when they've got to decide- are they better off going somewhere that shares their beliefs and needs, or will they constantly burden Israel, despite having lost wars over the land.

wes wrote: »

There was no EU back then btw, you must mean the UN. Also, it was not there land to give away, just because the theft of Palestinian land was supported by foreign powers, doesn't magically make it right. They defended themselves from a racist colonial invader. Again, they had every right to reject the nonsense from racist western powers. In fact, none of those state would have accepted such a situation themselves.

Racist? I really, really don't see how you could call them 'racist'. If they are 'racist western powers' then surely they would have been stupid to tell the Arabs to leave, only to replace them with African, Eastern European and Arab Jews. Way to make it a bigger melting pot.

wes wrote: »

Also, I was explicitly talking about 1948 and I agree hijacking planes are wrong, but that came much later. Also, as you point out that Israel stole Palestinian land via war, then why do you have an issue with Hamas trying to do the same? Its either ok for both of them to do it, or wrong for both, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Israelis used war, Hamas used terrorism- see the difference? You see, if they were actual men who had a brave bone in their bodies they would form a legitimate army and have an all-out battle with them, rather than sneakily taking hostages, doing suicide bombings etc, but obviously they can't muster up the courage to take the Israelis on.

wes wrote: »

The first inhabitants were the Canaanites, but the Israelites wiped them out as per the Bible.

Simply proving the cycle that is land ownership

wes wrote: »

Also, the Palestinian are the descendants of the Jewish populace. They just converted to other religions, when various empires invaded the place. Genetic tests have already proven this. So the land was theres and Islamic invasions are completely irrelevant.

Then it's a pity for them that G-d promised Israel to the Jews, now isn't it?

wes wrote: »

Also, read your Bible. Plenty of genocide there, if you want talk about which religious group is crueler. I could easily start quoting the Bible, if you like? It would be completely irrelevant to the current topic, but I think you know that nobody will come out of such a conversation looking good.

I don't particularly care who has the bloodier book to be honest- my point is that Muhammad took no issue in settling already inhabited lands- what's so different about Palestine, except for the fact that they were on the losing side?

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians, did not rebel, they defended themselves from a invader. If you think it ok to steal other peoples land by force, then you are in no position to say it wrong when the Palestinian try it. If its ok for Zionists to steal land by force, then its ok for Palestinians to try do so, also. I would be against it for everyone, but clearly you seem to think it fine because some people who didn't own the land decided to give it away, which is absurd.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to take land by force- it's how practically every land boundary on this earth was decided on. Palestinians, as I have already said, have tried to steal back the land, yet they are unable to get it though war, as they have proven. Now, they're changing to terrorist tactics- and that I don't agree with. If you're going to war, do it the noble way and have a backbone.

wes wrote: »

If the Palestinians aren't ready to govern themselves due to there choice of leaders then Israels choice of, mass murderers, racists and terrorists would suggest they aren't ready either. If Israel can elect such people, then so can the Palestinians. I reject your ridiculous double standard.

Where exactly are these racists?! If you look at the IDF, you'll see people of all colours, so don't even try the race card. Israel is running pretty damn well, yes- unlike the rest of the Mulslim-dominated Middle East, they're more liberal and welcoming of all kinds of people. I think it's a pretty obvious answer if you ask someone if they would rather be homosexual or female in Israel or Saudi. Yes, Israel must resort to some measures to protect themselves and the welfare of their state, but that's life. Show me a Palestine that is actually running the land they have as a productive society and maybe then when they gain a bit of credibility they'll be taken seriously.

wes wrote: »

For the conflict to end, both sides to need to stop the violence and not just the Palestinians.

I agree- I don't believe that militarising both side is the answer to the problem, but for as long as there is a threat, there will be people arming themselves against their enemies.

wes wrote: »

Its very simple, either the Palestinians get a state or equal rights. The current apartheid situation is simple intolerable and simply indefensible and to defend it in anyway shape or form, is quite simple racism.

I fully agree with Palestinians getting equal rights within Israel, but I really doubt that if they did get a seperate state based on the land they have that they would ever be satisfied. If anything, it would only feed their idea that by revolting they could get more and more land. Again, the racism thing, I'm wondering what the hell. If it's racism against Arabs, that's simply madness, I know countless Arab Jews who are fully accepted.

wes wrote: »

Its very simple, it is now well known, that Zionist intended to kick the Palestinians out of there homes. What some ancient Islamic empires did a over a 1000 years ago, has no relevance in this discussion. If someone comes to your country to drive your from your home and you fight them, that is self defense. To call this aggression is absurd nonsense. You have simple refused to address this simple point, and rather try and blame the Palestinians on every single things that Muslims have done wrong through out history instead, to try and justify the actions of Zionist colonists.

I'm not blaming the Palestinians for what Muslims have done- I am simply stating that it is a method of aquiring land which is used by everyone- Muslim, Christian and Jewish alike. Self defense happened a long time ago- now they have been conquered and it's time to get over it and stop playing the martyr card. Instead of crying about land they lost in fair war(s), they should think about setting up some kind of society and yes, of course they should get equal rights if they choose to stay in Israel and live within the Zionist state, but if they do not wish to live there simply because they have nothing in common with those in powers (like I would never want to live in Saudi, not because I'm not allowed but because my ideals are completely opposed to those of that country) then they should move on. Jews have been kicked out from loads of countries and they moved on- it's not an impossible thing to do. Is it fair? War isn't fair, losing isn't fair, but if we're getting into talks on what is fair and ethical then the Jews never would have had to resort to this to get a homeland, but they have and now they have a home which has been promised by G-d and if anyone deserves it, it's them.

wes

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Of course the fact that Muhammad invaded lands is relevant. The only difference between what he did and what happened when Israel was formated is that the Jews didn't put pressure on the indigenous population (through taxes, the sword or otherwise) to convert. Would that have been more acceptable to you?

If what Muhammad did is relevant, than the extermination of the people of Cannan is also relevant. So is it ok to engage in genocide to take land then? Yes, I do realize, I answered a silly question, with another silly question, but that really is only way to respond. Basically, a taste of your own medicine.

Having said that, what your saying is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what Zionists did to Palestinians. Sure, why not bring up Genghis Khan for instance. Basically, you can't defend what Zionists did, so your trying to change the topic, but it has failed miserably.

Also, the whole look some other guys did the same thing is no defense at all.

Btw, you do realize, you arguing against something that no one in this thread is arguing right? No one has take the position your arguing against, hence why it is irrelevant.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

'Indigenous' doesn't necessarily mean that they own the place- ownership of land is a constantly evolving thing, you can't simply say "this is my land, because I got here first" for the simple reason that unless they've been there since the stone age, they haven't been there first. That's what happens when people lose wars- they lose land fair and square. Native Americans, Aborigines etc are technically the 'indigenous' people of their countries, yet it is still widely accepted that they had land and lost it. People would be horrified if these indigenous people started bombing and hijacking in an effort to get the land back.

So its ok to steal land as long as you win? So by your logic if indigenous groups win, than they take back there land fair and square.

So, to be perfectly honest, you are no position to morally condemn Hamas, if that is your position.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Well if we're going to get technical about who really belongs there, the Dravidians are the 'indigenous' people of these regions and were pushed down by Indo-Europeans, therefore they weren't the 'indigenous' people.

So if we made it impossible for the Palestinians to get their land back, it'd be all good so? I don't agree with people being murdered and not allowed to move around and I don't think it's a necessity for Israel to be ONLY Jewish people, but it's not a one-way street and there's plenty murdering and bombing going on from the Palestinian side. Perhaps if they weren't using their own people as human shields and hiding like cowards in civilian areas, there wouldn't be as many deaths of innocent people. The simple fact is that because Israel has such small numbers and is literally surrounded by enemies, their only real form of defence is complete out-in-out attack and this tactic has its concequences.

So you defend Israel state terror, but condemn the Palestinians. So the ends justify the means. I think you will find Hamas share the exact same position.

Also, Israel is not surrounded by enemies. The peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, show your statement to be the purest nonsense. The Palestinians can not destroy Israel and are the ones who are being oppressed. Stop making excuses for your sides violence, it is indefensible, just like Hamas's violence against Israeli's is indefensible.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I'm not saying they're responsible in the slightest- I'm just saying that it seems a tad contradictory that if Muhammad does something it's all well and good, but if the Jews do the same thing yet are MUCH more humane in their treatment of the inhabitants, people go haywire

You are again talking utter nonsense. The conflict, we are talking about it happening now. Again, why not bring up the genocide of the people of Cannan then? Was that ok? Was that "Humane"?

Seriously, its very simple. What is going on with the Palestinians is happening right now and I fail to see how you can call the mass murder of Woman and children by the IDF during the recent conflict in Gaza "Humane". How can you call the collective punishment of 1.5 million people "Humane", which has resulted in the malnutrition of thousands of children "Humane"? Do yourself a favor and look up the word "Humane".

Bat_Ami wrote: »

You know where there is lots of land? The entire Muslim nation. It's massive. Absolutely huge and a thousand time larger than the extremely modest Israel. What's wrong with that land? G-d has given this land to the Jews and that's how it's meant to be. If they want to live among the Jews, do, but don't go demanding a seperate entity and try to split it.

Complete and utter extremist nonsense. This is the sort of crap, we hear from the Taliban and Hamas. Thank your for showing us, that Zionists and Hamas, are more a like than either will ever admin.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Attacks on civilians are wrong, hands down. No disagreement there.

Good, at least we can agree on that.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Because they defeated them perhaps? Israel wasn't just handed on a plate, the palmach fought a lot of bloody wars against the Palestinians and won- over and over. There comes a time when they've got to decide- are they better off going somewhere that shares their beliefs and needs, or will they constantly burden Israel, despite having lost wars over the land.

So you would be alright if the Palestinian won a war and took back there land then? As long as they win a war, then everything is morally correct? Interesting position really.

As for burdening Israel, well tough **** for Israel that the natives won't just roll over and die and give in to what racists Zionists want. Personally, the Palestinians should inconvenience Israel the same way Doctor Martin Luther King and Ghandi, inconvenience the racist US and British empire. They deserve justice, just like the kind Doctor King and Ghandi achieved.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Racist? I really, really don't see how you could call them 'racist'. If they are 'racist western powers' then surely they would have been stupid to tell the Arabs to leave, only to replace them with African, Eastern European and Arab Jews. Way to make it a bigger melting pot.

So, giving someone else lands to punish them for the crimes of Europeans isn't racist? You do realize that the Western powers, gave Israel to Zionists out of guilt for the Holocaust (strange they didn't punish the Europeans who exterminated 6 million Jews) and they wanted to get rid of Jews themselves? I would call that pretty damn racist.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Israelis used war, Hamas used terrorism- see the difference? You see, if they were actual men who had a brave bone in their bodies they would form a legitimate army and have an all-out battle with them, rather than sneakily taking hostages, doing suicide bombings etc, but obviously they can't muster up the courage to take the Israelis on.

Israel used cowardly terrorism, when it suited them, you really need to read some history and not Zionist propoganda. Also, how brave is it to bomb a target from a bomber, with 0 chance of being shot down? I would say thats not very brave at all.

Also, a war of aggression isn't any better than terrorism. In fact, a war of aggression, tends to kill more people than terrorism in general. Go read a history book and you will easily see this confirmed.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Simply proving the cycle that is land ownership

Then it's a pity for them that G-d promised Israel to the Jews, now isn't it?

Hamas justify there violence by invoking God as well. Strange that you can't see that Hamas and Zionists are basically the same.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I don't particularly care who has the bloodier book to be honest- my point is that Muhammad took no issue in settling already inhabited lands- what's so different about Palestine, except for the fact that they were on the losing side?

Once again, irrelevant. Also, how about those Cannanites? Also, you specifically decided to bang on about one group being crueler than the other, so yeah, you do care. Otherwise, why would you bring it up? Also, you do realize, you contradict yourself left right and center right? You are in no way consistent at all.

Also, I fail to see why you think the Palestinian responsible for stuff that happened 100's of years ago. It really is rather puzzling. Also, puzzling why you keep ignoring all those murdered Cannanintes? Is that you find it irrelevant as well? Which is the main reason I brought it up of course.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I think it's perfectly acceptable to take land by force- it's how practically every land boundary on this earth was decided on. Palestinians, as I have already said, have tried to steal back the land, yet they are unable to get it though war, as they have proven. Now, they're changing to terrorist tactics- and that I don't agree with. If you're going to war, do it the noble way and have a backbone.

You think War is noble? You really are talking nonsense.

Honestly, terrorism and war really aren't that different. Except that in wars more people tend to die. So basically, you are in no position to condemn Hamas. You are no better than them and stop pretending you are.

Honestly, you are completely contradicting yourself and its amazing you think Zionists better than Hamas. Your position is one massive contradiction and quite frankly nonsensical.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Where exactly are these racists?! If you look at the IDF, you'll see people of all colours, so don't even try the race card. Israel is running pretty damn well, yes- unlike the rest of the Mulslim-dominated Middle East, they're more liberal and welcoming of all kinds of people. I think it's a pretty obvious answer if you ask someone if they would rather be homosexual or female in Israel or Saudi. Yes, Israel must resort to some measures to protect themselves and the welfare of their state, but that's life. Show me a Palestine that is actually running the land they have as a productive society and maybe then when they gain a bit of credibility they'll be taken seriously.

Lets see the fact that Israel calls itself a "Jewish" state for one. That pretty much proves it right off the bat. Then there is the fact the Palestinian in Israel, aren't allowed to live in most of the country, as they aren't Jewish. However, so nice of you to ignore all this. I will take Israel serious, when the things you are true. So the race card is already in play. Here go look at Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch, or a Israeli Human Rights group, they expose plenty of racism in Israel.

Also, a lot of Israel methods have feck all to do with self defense and more to do with land theft.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I agree- I don't believe that militarising both side is the answer to the problem, but for as long as there is a threat, there will be people arming themselves against their enemies.

True enough, but if everyone just put down there guns, then maybe they could talk things out.

Yes, there will be nuts on both sides who will want to fight, but here is a novel idea. Lets not have fringe nuts run the show.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I fully agree with Palestinians getting equal rights within Israel, but I really doubt that if they did get a seperate state based on the land they have that they would ever be satisfied. If anything, it would only feed their idea that by revolting they could get more and more land. Again, the racism thing, I'm wondering what the hell. If it's racism against Arabs, that's simply madness, I know countless Arab Jews who are fully accepted.

The operative word in your sentence is "Jews" btw. Also, Arab Jews, do complain of discrimination, so your not right.

Also, again either the Palestinian get equal rights or a state. Israel has no right to deny them equality. The current inequality is what causes the violence. Its simple the Palestinians have nothing to lose, so some people decide to use violence, as they have nothing to lose at that point. So stop making excuses for the inexcusable. You pick a fight with someone, then you shouldn't be surprised that when they fight back.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I'm not blaming the Palestinians for what Muslims have done- I am simply stating that it is a method of aquiring land which is used by everyone- Muslim, Christian and Jewish alike.

If you want to live in the Middle Ages, go right ahead. I will stay here in the 21st Century with international law and what not.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Self defense happened a long time ago- now they have been conquered and it's time to get over it and stop playing the martyr card. Instead of crying about land they lost in fair war(s), they should think about setting up some kind of society and yes, of course they should get equal rights if they choose to stay in Israel and live within the Zionist state, but if they do not wish to live there simply because they have nothing in common with those in powers (like I would never want to live in Saudi, not because I'm not allowed but because my ideals are completely opposed to those of that country) then they should move on.

Oh, your nonsense really knows no bounds. There is no such thing as a fair war. Going to someone else country and attacking them is called a war of aggression, it a supreme crime in international law (something we have here in the 21st century), so it was hardly "fair". Also, why should they leave? Zionisms is a racist ideology, no different than the apartheid ideology of South Africa. The Palestinians should not more accept it, than Black South Africans should accept apartheid. The Palestinians should not more leave, than Black people should have left South Africa. It is there home and they have every right to be there, regardless of whether racists like it or not.

As for Saudi Arabia, people who rights are being taken from them there, should fight against it. Women should demand there equal rights there, just like the Palestinians should do against Zionism. It doesn't really matter where oppression occurs, people should fight for there rights.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Jews have been kicked out from loads of countries and they moved on- it's not an impossible thing to do. Is it fair? War isn't fair, losing isn't fair, but if we're getting into talks on what is fair and ethical then the Jews never would have had to resort to this to get a homeland, but they have and now they have a home which has been promised by G-d and if anyone deserves it, it's them.

Are you being serious? How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Zionism is hardly getting over anything, its an ideology based on stealing land, because God said so for the Religious and for the secular because there ancestors may or may no have lived there 2000 years ago. Zionism is not getting over things and for your say the Palestinians should get over it, is laughable. Honestly, do you read what you type? Are you purposefully creating some kind of insane parody?

Also, again with the violent extremist, God given right to violence. You are hilarious. You complain about Hamas doing the same bloody thing and call them cowards and terrorists and claimed Zionists are heroes, when they were cowardly racists, and terrorists just like Hamas. There is no difference between the 2 and the fact you think yourself morally superior is laughable. You really do yourself a great dis-service and basically give away the moral high ground, with all your excuse for murderous aggression for your "side".

Honestly, you really make this very very easy.

getz

this is not a easy subject-islam has always been anti /jewish,within the koran and its interpretations, many islamic scholars have remarked on this, yet it hasent been anti/christain in the same way, now the christain church,in a strange way has not been anti/jewish, the protestant church is pro/jewish as jesus said the only way to god was by moses law,yet the catholic christian church has alway been very uneasy with the jew, even to the 1940s many catholic countrys [ireland] did not want to take in jewish orphan children untill they were shamed into it,it was not that long ago that the only safe haven for the jew in europe was protestant countrys-most of the spanish jews had to flee to gibraltar,

wes

@Getz,

I would suggest that your read up on Protestant reformer Martin Luther, who wrote a rather disturbing Anti-Semetic treatise, back in the day.

Zaynzma

getz wrote: »

this is not a easy subject-islam has always been anti /jewish,within the koran and its interpretations, many islamic scholars have remarked on this, yet it hasent been anti/christain in the same way, now the christain church,in a strange way has not been anti/jewish, the protestant church is pro/jewish as jesus said the only way to god was by moses law,yet the catholic christian church has alway been very uneasy with the jew, even to the 1940s many catholic countrys [ireland] did not want to take in jewish orphan children untill they were shamed into it,it was not that long ago that the only safe haven for the jew in europe was protestant countrys-most of the spanish jews had to flee to gibraltar,

@ getz, I'm surprised you say that Islam/qur'an has always been anti-Jewish, I don't find that to be the case at all. As for the Christian church not being anti-Jewish...Christianity has a long and bloody history of being anti-Jewish, with torture, forced conversions, killings, burnings, slaughterings of Jews (and Muslims), wasn't it the Christians who marched to the Holy Land where people of all 3 faiths were living together in peace, and ended up literally knee deep in the blood of Jews and Muslims.

wes

Zaynzma wrote: »

and ended up literally knee deep in the blood of Jews and Muslims.

Orthodox Christians were slaughtered as well btw.

Regardless, I don't think there any need to bring up the Crusades.

Bat_Ami

@ Zaynzma, the Muslims have also been anti-semitic, as is evidence from the slaughter of 900 Jews in Medina, so I don't think it's fair to single out the Christian church alone

I don’t know if anyone here got a chance to see it, but there was a really amazing documentary on this topic a few nights ago on RTE called "To See If I'm Still Smiling"- it’s not politically motivated or anything, it’s just people like you or me talking about their time spent in the IDF and the mental impact it has had on them. It’s really hard to watch, very sad- for everyone. I couldn’t find the entire thing online, but here is one of the IDF girls who took part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq7K0zwWWls

Since you have made it clear that you have an interest in the story of the Canaanites, I would be happy to share it with you. G-d created the world and promised Israel to Abraham, then to Isaac, Jacob and Moses. When the Jews came to Canaan, they offered the Canaanites to leave unharmed or remain and live in a society which was ruled by God’s laws. Some of them did leave PEACEFULLY, namely the Girgishítes. It was the Canaanites who chose to battle. The Canaanites weren’t the ‘original owners’ either- they took it from other nations, also through war. What we must remember is, the true original owner of all land is G-d and He can choose to do with it what he wishes. In fact, He felt it was such an important topic that He devoted an entire book to the Bible for the sole purpose of proving that:
“Whenever Israel was bereft of Jews the land shrivelled up, becoming barren, inhospitable and filled with malaria infested swamps”
In essence, by refuting the Jew’s right to Israel, one is saying that the entire book of Genesis doesn't belong in the Torah. The only reason G-d included the book of Genesis is to tell us that he has decided to give his Holy-Land to the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as an eternal inheritance. Interestingly, this was documented by the French Rabbi Rashi during the first Crusade period when the Christians were battling with the Muslims over Israel. It is therefore not by human might that Jews came to Israel but by Divine right. Neither political prowess nor military power brought us to Israel, rather by Divine grace. Indeed ever since Joshua conquered the land from the Cannanites over 3300 years ago, there has never been an independent nation in Israel other than Jews. The Israeli occupation is NOT genocide. They are simply defending the land that has been given to them. And if you think that my opinion on the subject is ‘extreme’ (even though it’s a pretty basic part of the Jewish faith and isn’t taking things beyond the bounds in the slightest), then you’re entitled to your thought on it.

I have EVERY right to morally condemn Hamas. They use their OWN PEOPLE as human shields, strap themselves with bombs and completely undermine the stability of Israel. Maybe if more people condemned Hamas we wouldn’t have so much extremism and kids thinking that blowing themselves up is a reasonable response to something they dislike.

I understand that there are reasons for people's sympathy for the Palestinian situation, and sympathy they do deserve. From the birth of Israel, the Palestinians have been abandoned by their Arab brethren and used as pawns in a political game. Their Arab neighbours have all been complicit in their suffering, either directly, or through their idleness. Yet who is complaining about this? Where has all the ‘aid money’ the neighbouring Arab countries are sending the Palestinians gone? Why was it up to the UN to build schools and hospitals while Arafat's wife lives in Paris and shops at Dior? Where was the world's condemnation of Arafat who walked away from a Palestinian state so he could remain "King of a travesty" instead of a "has been" in a homeland? Where were all the demonstrations and placards and burning effigies about these issues?
There are a million questions to be asked which remain unanswered- is the terrorizing of Israelis with 60 rockets a day acceptable? If people realized that this averages as one rocket every 24 minutes of every day of every week of every month, would it make a difference? Are the rocket attacks a non-event to the world because the Israeli casualty rate is low in comparison to the number of attacks? Do people really think that's just good luck? Don't they realize that Israel has been proactive in protecting its population and that the reason the Palestinian side has greater casualties is because Hamas uses their families as human shields? Where is the outrage at this monstrous act? Would the rocket attacks on Israel suddenly have some political weight if they travelled further, or had nuclear capability, or killed lots more Jews? Do Jews have to be destroyed in large numbers before it matters?

When an enemy fires one rocket, the opposing will respond with two or three times heavier, so as to win. It's tragic about all the innocent victims on the Arabs side. But their leaders used the citizens as human shields. Hamas are setting up innocent men, women, and children to be killed by Israel's military.

Israel uses defence- the Palestinians are using terror. How many Israelis have wandered into crowded streets with bombs strapped to them in order to prove a point? It’s so typical of this propaganda crap that Israel is constantly shown as the aggressors, yet the media doesn’t show what pre-empts the explosion of violence. People don’t give a crap about Israel, namely because they don’t understand the real situation. How many times have we seen images of Jewish kids who have been fired on by qassam rockets? I’ve never once seen an injured Israeli shown in the media. Ever. And is isn’t as if they DON’T have causalities- people are just trying to portray this romanticised image of the ‘evil Jews’ coming in and stealing land- yet how could they steal something that was and will always be theirs? Muhammad had no qualms about obliterating 900 Jews from Medina- luckily these days we are in a more civilised society and can negotiate land (despite the fact that a separate state within Israel goes against all teachings and beliefs of the people), yet the Palestinians are closed to making any concessions whatsoever. They were offered a STATE – I mean, my goodness, isn’t that what they’ve always wanted?! Yet then just because they can’t have an army to bombard Israel with more bombs, all deals are off the table. The Palestinians will never be satisfied- so long as Israel keeps its defences up, they have a problem until ever single Jew has been murdered and for as long as that continues, I don’t think they even deserve to sit at the same table as these people who are willing to negotiate the core beliefs of their faith to accommodate THEM.

LOL, the Palestinians can’t destroy Israel?! Why do you think Israel has compulsory conscription? For the good of their health? To look big and strong? No- the Israelis are far outnumbered by the amount of Arabs who want their heads on a plate, therefore they must constantly aim to have the best weapons, the best training and the greatest pool of talent at hand to keep themselves afloat.

I would think that the idea of these ‘peace treaties’ having worked as some kind of magical solution to the issues between Israel and its neighbours is very idealistic and quite naïve, really. It’s impossibly to erase hostilities that have lasted so long and have had such bloody consequences by simply signing a document. The main impact (and, very likely, the main reason) of these agreements is economic- neither side wants to lose money by being cut off completely.

In response to you saying that the IDF is conducting a “mass murder of women and children by the IDF during the recent conflict in Gaza” I completely disagree with you and I think it completely undermines the entire purpose of the IDF- it’s not the Israeli Lets-Be-Terrorists-And-Get-Revenge Force, it’s the Israeli DEFENCE Force, and if terrorists insist on hiding their cowardly selves behind their OWN women and children, what can we do? Wait until the next round of suicide bombers come prancing in, hiding behind the next little lady? The IDF isn’t perfect, but they strive to be. There’s only so much one can expect when an army of kids just out of secondary school are given guns and told to restore peace in a place with so many problems. It’s devastating for them both physically and mentally and, consequently impacts the Palestinians with whom they do most of their dealings with at border patrols etc. I jus think it’s completely wrong that they are training kids for this kind of situation, but at the same time, it’s obvious that they wouldn’t do it if there was not the need to. It comes at a great cost to put people who are still emotionally immature with little life experience in such a high position of authority and no doubt it leads to bad news, but it would be extremely wrong to tar them all with the same brush.
“Burdening Israel” isn’t because they won’t ‘just roll over and die’ (but very mature take on it, I must say). They are completely undermining any stability or sense of normalcy within Israel by using violence to express their views and so long as they pose a security threat, the IDF will have no other alternative but the defend themselves and put checkpoints, constant searches and all these things which are simply wasting the time of everyone involved because some people think this kind of terrorism actually works. Palestinians aren’t ‘defending’ themselves with Hamas, they’re seeking revenge. As for you saying that the “Palestinians should inconvenience Israel the same way Doctor Martin Luther King and Ghandi, inconvenience the racist US and British empire.” Excuse me, but did Ghandi and Martin Luther King’s method of ‘inconveniencing’ involve terrorist attacks? No. If Palestinians put down the burning flags for five minutes and if they DID take the peaceful protest route they might gain some kind of credibility in the eyes of the Israelis.

I couldn’t BELIEVE it when I read your:
“So, giving someone else lands to punish them for the crimes of Europeans isn't racist? You do realize that the Western powers, gave Israel to Zionists out of guilt for the Holocaust (strange they didn't punish the Europeans who exterminated 6 million Jews) and they wanted to get rid of Jews themselves? I would call that pretty damn racist.”
Do you know what racism is??? Like seriously! Jews have ALWAYS lived in Israel- it just so happens that there have been Muslims and Christians there TOO. And what the hell do you mean by “strange they didn’t punish the Europeans who exterminated 6 million Jews”- what were the Nuremburg Trials supposed to be? What do you want them to do? Wipe out the entirety of Germany and a vast proportion of their neighbours for being idle during the holocaust?! As for “wanting to get rid of the Jews themselves”- nobody FORCES Jews to go to Israel- Jews CHOSE to go to Israel because it is their homeland. This apparent ‘racism’ you say that the Jews have towards their OWN fellow Jews of Arab origin- that is COMPLETELY wrong. I have 2 friends of Arab origin myself who also happen to be Jews and they said that neither of them has ever in their life experienced discrimination because of their origins. A Jew is a Jew and wherever they’re from, that doesn’t matter. It’s also a pretty rich thing to say from a Muslim living in Ireland where Muslims are notorious for dividing themselves along lines of ‘who’s from where’. You yourself made this point earlier: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60229632&postcount=6 “The problem here, is that any progressive group of Muslims would be very difficult to put together here in Ireland due to a very much splintered community. There is a lof crap that goes on between the various ethnic groups.”

There is such a thing as a just war- jihad, holy war, whatever name you want to give it, it exists. It is a just reason for war- I’m not saying that the outcome of war is bright and rosy in the slightest. The Jews were not ‘going to someone else’s country’- they were reclaiming the land that was rightly theirs. Fight for their rights? The Jews are defending their right and that’s to have one place on earth that they can say is their home. Muslims have a huge chunk of the globe, yet the Jews simply want a small strip of land- they should fully defend it against those who threaten their right to it by all accounts. As for the conflict itself, I will readily admit that I don’t support all of the Israeli government policy- but not supporting the entirety of the war and not supporting Israel’s right to exist and two VERY different things. The Palestinians say they desire to govern a land they can call their own. The Israelis say they want to live safely. For over two thousand years Jews have constantly been threatened, attacked and evicted, and the Israelis say enough is enough.

That’s all I have to say on the matter and I’m not expecting positivity or agreement in any remote shape or form. I just think there are two sides to this story and it isn’t simply black and white, good and bad. I have many issues with how the Israeli government is choosing to deal with the situation, not only because it is unfair on the Palestinians but also because it is contributing nothing towards making Israel a safer place to live.

wes

Bat_Ami wrote: »

@ Zaynzma, the Muslims have also been anti-semitic, as is evidence from the slaughter of 900 Jews in Medina, so I don't think it's fair to single out the Christian church alone

Ok, but right below you um defend genocide by your Religious group. Do you really expect to be taken seriously?

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Since you have made it clear that you have an interest in the story of the Canaanites, I would be happy to share it with you. G-d created the world and promised Israel to Abraham, then to Isaac, Jacob and Moses. When the Jews came to Canaan, they offered the Canaanites to leave unharmed or remain and live in a society which was ruled by God’s laws. Some of them did leave PEACEFULLY, namely the Girgishítes. It was the Canaanites who chose to battle. The Canaanites weren’t the ‘original owners’ either- they took it from other nations, also through war. What we must remember is, the true original owner of all land is G-d and He can choose to do with it what he wishes. In fact, He felt it was such an important topic that He devoted an entire book to the Bible for the sole purpose of proving that:
“Whenever Israel was bereft of Jews the land shrivelled up, becoming barren, inhospitable and filled with malaria infested swamps”
In essence, by refuting the Jew’s right to Israel, one is saying that the entire book of Genesis doesn't belong in the Torah. The only reason G-d included the book of Genesis is to tell us that he has decided to give his Holy-Land to the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as an eternal inheritance. Interestingly, this was documented by the French Rabbi Rashi during the first Crusade period when the Christians were battling with the Muslims over Israel. It is therefore not by human might that Jews came to Israel but by Divine right. Neither political prowess nor military power brought us to Israel, rather by Divine grace. Indeed ever since Joshua conquered the land from the Cannanites over 3300 years ago, there has never been an independent nation in Israel other than Jews. The Israeli occupation is NOT genocide. They are simply defending the land that has been given to them. And if you think that my opinion on the subject is ‘extreme’ (even though it’s a pretty basic part of the Jewish faith and isn’t taking things beyond the bounds in the slightest), then you’re entitled to your thought on it.

Oh dear, you really don't have a clue what I am saying.

So, let me get this straight, its ok for Jews to kill in the name of God, but not for Muslims? I personally, don't see any difference. As, I mentioned earlier, I fail to see how Muslims are any more crueler than Jews, considering the genocide, which you actually try to excuse.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I have EVERY right to morally condemn Hamas. They use their OWN PEOPLE as human shields, strap themselves with bombs and completely undermine the stability of Israel. Maybe if more people condemned Hamas we wouldn’t have so much extremism and kids thinking that blowing themselves up is a reasonable response to something they dislike.

You just defended Genocide, and seem to think it ok to take land via war. Sorry, again you are in no position to claim moral superiority over Hamas. You call Hamas extreme, but you opinion are just as extreme as theres.

The old saying of those who live by the sword will die by it, applies here imho. If you engage in violence, you really shouldn't be surprised when the other guy responds in kind. Quite frankly, the Israeli's happily used terrorism when it suited them and still use's today, just on a far larger scale, for instance the collective punishment of 1.5 million people.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I understand that there are reasons for people's sympathy for the Palestinian situation, and sympathy they do deserve. From the birth of Israel, the Palestinians have been abandoned by their Arab brethren and used as pawns in a political game. Their Arab neighbours have all been complicit in their suffering, either directly, or through their idleness. Yet who is complaining about this? Where has all the ‘aid money’ the neighbouring Arab countries are sending the Palestinians gone? Why was it up to the UN to build schools and hospitals while Arafat's wife lives in Paris and shops at Dior? Where was the world's condemnation of Arafat who walked away from a Palestinian state so he could remain "King of a travesty" instead of a "has been" in a homeland? Where were all the demonstrations and placards and burning effigies about these issues?

Well, seeing as the main culprit is Israel, a culprit you forget to mention.

Your right other Arab states don't care about the Palestinians, but its Israel that is occupying the Palestinians and not those guys.

Oh and while Arafat was a idiot, he didn't walk away from a Palestinian state. The Israeli's great offer is a myth, that they perpetrated, to try and totally blame one side for peace talks falling a part, when it was due to a break down on 2 sides.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

There are a million questions to be asked which remain unanswered- is the terrorizing of Israelis with 60 rockets a day acceptable? If people realized that this averages as one rocket every 24 minutes of every day of every week of every month, would it make a difference? Are the rocket attacks a non-event to the world because the Israeli casualty rate is low in comparison to the number of attacks? Do people really think that's just good luck? Don't they realize that Israel has been proactive in protecting its population and that the reason the Palestinian side has greater casualties is because Hamas uses their families as human shields? Where is the outrage at this monstrous act? Would the rocket attacks on Israel suddenly have some political weight if they travelled further, or had nuclear capability, or killed lots more Jews? Do Jews have to be destroyed in large numbers before it matters?

Actually, you will find that the Palestinian weapons are rubbish and hence the low casualty rate. Still, the attacks are indefensible and no one here has attempted to defend them.

Having said that, Israel regularly use's Palestinian as Human shields as well, so there hardly any better.

As for Hamas, yes they have done so, but to blame all the the civilian deaths on Hamas is absurd. Israel has no regards for the lives of Palestinians, and plenty of Human rights organizations have shown this.

Again, you seem to think that there is no occupation and that Palestinian actions are happening in a vacuum.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

When an enemy fires one rocket, the opposing will respond with two or three times heavier, so as to win. It's tragic about all the innocent victims on the Arabs side. But their leaders used the citizens as human shields. Hamas are setting up innocent men, women, and children to be killed by Israel's military.

I think you will find a lot of civilian deaths are directly due to Israel and not Hamas.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Israel uses defence- the Palestinians are using terror. How many Israelis have wandered into crowded streets with bombs strapped to them in order to prove a point? It’s so typical of this propaganda crap that Israel is constantly shown as the aggressors, yet the media doesn’t show what pre-empts the explosion of violence. People don’t give a crap about Israel, namely because they don’t understand the real situation. How many times have we seen images of Jewish kids who have been fired on by qassam rockets? I’ve never once seen an injured Israeli shown in the media. Ever. And is isn’t as if they DON’T have causalities- people are just trying to portray this romanticised image of the ‘evil Jews’ coming in and stealing land- yet how could they steal something that was and will always be theirs? Muhammad had no qualms about obliterating 900 Jews from Medina- luckily these days we are in a more civilised society and can negotiate land (despite the fact that a separate state within Israel goes against all teachings and beliefs of the people), yet the Palestinians are closed to making any concessions whatsoever. They were offered a STATE – I mean, my goodness, isn’t that what they’ve always wanted?! Yet then just because they can’t have an army to bombard Israel with more bombs, all deals are off the table. The Palestinians will never be satisfied- so long as Israel keeps its defences up, they have a problem until ever single Jew has been murdered and for as long as that continues, I don’t think they even deserve to sit at the same table as these people who are willing to negotiate the core beliefs of their faith to accommodate THEM.

Your comments concerning the media are sheer nonsense. I have seen plenty on Israel suffering in the media. Honestly, do you really think you can get away with such rubbish?

Again, one word occupation. To say Israel isn't a aggressor is laughable nonsense.

Also, Israel regularly murder Palestinian civilians. Just, because they use a tank or a plane, doesn't make any difference and to suggest it does is pure nonsense.

Again, to call what the Palestinians were offered a state is laughable. You clearly don't know what a state is. Also, the Palestinian have as much right to defend themselves from a bunch of violent nutter Zionists who are out to steal there land and kick them out of there homes. You again seem to ignore the constant land theft. I know you believe God said it was ok, but then Hamas would say the same, so to be honest you are no better.

Also, you keep banging on about Muhammad, but you defended Genocide and acquisition of land via war? Why is it suddenly wrong for Palestinian to use war and terror, just like Zionists? You seem to think it only ok for Zionists to use those tactics for some odd reason. Seems bloody inconsistent to me.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

LOL, the Palestinians can’t destroy Israel?! Why do you think Israel has compulsory conscription? For the good of their health? To look big and strong? No- the Israelis are far outnumbered by the amount of Arabs who want their heads on a plate, therefore they must constantly aim to have the best weapons, the best training and the greatest pool of talent at hand to keep themselves afloat.

Um, do you purposefullly deny reality or something?

Ok. once again, Israel has made peace deals with both Egypt and Jordan. Syria are willing to make peace in exchange for the Golan. Lebanon is a huge mess and not capable of much. The Palestinian are a occupied people, who have been attack by Israel and has there homes stolen from them by Israel and are in no position to destroy Israel. The other Arab state have also offered peace.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I would think that the idea of these ‘peace treaties’ having worked as some kind of magical solution to the issues between Israel and its neighbours is very idealistic and quite naïve, really. It’s impossibly to erase hostilities that have lasted so long and have had such bloody consequences by simply signing a document. The main impact (and, very likely, the main reason) of these agreements is economic- neither side wants to lose money by being cut off completely.

So? Hardly matters, seeing as both Egypt and Jordan haven't attacked Israel since signing peace treaties. Looks like a damn success to me. Again, why are you ignoring reality to excuse the continuation of bloody pointless conflict? The treaties work, we know they work due to the ones already signed.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

In response to you saying that the IDF is conducting a “mass murder of women and children by the IDF during the recent conflict in Gaza” I completely disagree with you and I think it completely undermines the entire purpose of the IDF- it’s not the Israeli Lets-Be-Terrorists-And-Get-Revenge Force, it’s the Israeli DEFENCE Force, and if terrorists insist on hiding their cowardly selves behind their OWN women and children, what can we do?

I can call myself Batman, doesn't make me Batman. The IDF are vile pack of murderer. We all seen what happened in Gaza, despite Israel attempts to hide there crimes. Plenty of Human Rights organizations have documented the IDF crimes and people won't believe Israel absurd lies anymore.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Wait until the next round of suicide bombers come prancing in, hiding behind the next little lady? The IDF isn’t perfect, but they strive to be. There’s only so much one can expect when an army of kids just out of secondary school are given guns and told to restore peace in a place with so many problems. It’s devastating for them both physically and mentally and, consequently impacts the Palestinians with whom they do most of their dealings with at border patrols etc. I jus think it’s completely wrong that they are training kids for this kind of situation, but at the same time, it’s obvious that they wouldn’t do it if there was not the need to. It comes at a great cost to put people who are still emotionally immature with little life experience in such a high position of authority and no doubt it leads to bad news, but it would be extremely wrong to tar them all with the same brush.

Its not wrong to tar an organization that regularly murders civilians as murderers and terrorists. I am btw, directly targettingthe organization and not individuals, with my criticism.

Also, the IDF are not a defense force. They are an active part of stealing Palestinians, which is to put it simply aggression and not defense. So quite frankly I have no sympathy for the IDF.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

“Burdening Israel” isn’t because they won’t ‘just roll over and die’ (but very mature take on it, I must say).

Calling a spade a spade is all. You have made it clear only Zionist can use war and terror to get there way and it only wrong when a Palestinian does so.

Me, I tend to think it wrong for everyone.

You see Palestinian violence is due to Zionist waging war on them. With Zionists starting a war to take something that didn't belong to them, there would be no conflict.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

They are completely undermining any stability or sense of normalcy within Israel by using violence to express their views and so long as they pose a security threat, the IDF will have no other alternative but the defend themselves and put checkpoints, constant searches and all these things which are simply wasting the time of everyone involved because some people think this kind of terrorism actually works.

Terrorism worked for Zionist in creating there state. Oh wait you deny Zionist terrorism, as its inconvenient to your world view. Must be nice to ignore facts that show you to be wrong.

Also, again Israel is very much a aggressor in the conflict. Pretending land theft isn't taking place is pure and utter nonsense. Israel btw, make it there business to destroy the normalcy of Palestinian existence. So the old kettle situation here if you ask me.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Palestinians aren’t ‘defending’ themselves with Hamas, they’re seeking revenge. As for you saying that the “Palestinians should inconvenience Israel the same way Doctor Martin Luther King and Ghandi, inconvenience the racist US and British empire.” Excuse me, but did Ghandi and Martin Luther King’s method of ‘inconveniencing’ involve terrorist attacks? No. If Palestinians put down the burning flags for five minutes and if they DID take the peaceful protest route they might gain some kind of credibility in the eyes of the Israelis.

Wow, I was advocating that the Palestinian use peaceful resistance. Your take on what I said, couldn't possibly be more wrong. Why, the hell would I suggest the Palestinian emulate people who used non-violent resistance, if I was actually advocating violence? Honestly, do try and read what I say and not what you wish I said.

Oh and maybe if Israel stopped stealing land, they would gain some credibility as well. You know, both sides need to stop there violence, not just one. Regardless of who is right or wrong, both side need to stop the violence. Otherwise, peace can never be achieved. One side having a monopoly on violence will never result in peace.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

I couldn’t BELIEVE it when I read your:
“So, giving someone else lands to punish them for the crimes of Europeans isn't racist? You do realize that the Western powers, gave Israel to Zionists out of guilt for the Holocaust (strange they didn't punish the Europeans who exterminated 6 million Jews) and they wanted to get rid of Jews themselves? I would call that pretty damn racist.”
Do you know what racism is??? Like seriously! Jews have ALWAYS lived in Israel- it just so happens that there have been Muslims and Christians there TOO.

So? Seriously, so what? What does that change? Oh wait it doesn't change a bloody thing now does it. Zionist came from Europe. Jews were very much a minority before Zionist colonists showed up from Europe, with the express intention of setting up there own state. When people do this, its called an invasion.

Again, its racist to kick people from there homes if there a different race from you. Stop pretending doing so isn't racist.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

And what the hell do you mean by “strange they didn’t punish the Europeans who exterminated 6 million Jews”- what were the Nuremburg Trials supposed to be? What do you want them to do? Wipe out the entirety of Germany and a vast proportion of their neighbours for being idle during the holocaust?!

Maybe, make the people who actually tried to exterminate Jews give up there land, so they could have a state maybe? As opposed to people who have nothing to do with it? I know its a bizarre idea to suggest that people who nothing to do with should be left alone.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

As for “wanting to get rid of the Jews themselves”- nobody FORCES Jews to go to Israel- Jews CHOSE to go to Israel because it is their homeland. This apparent ‘racism’ you say that the Jews have towards their OWN fellow Jews of Arab origin- that is COMPLETELY wrong. I have 2 friends of Arab origin myself who also happen to be Jews and they said that neither of them has ever in their life experienced discrimination because of their origins.

They took advantage of a situation that presented itself. The reason they gave Palestinian land away, was to take advantage of the situation.

Also:
Rabbi Yosef’s son: Sephardic girls discriminated against


Stop pretending that Israel doesn't discriminate. Its nonsensical and easily disproved by a quick Google search.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

A Jew is a Jew and wherever they’re from, that doesn’t matter. It’s also a pretty rich thing to say from a Muslim living in Ireland where Muslims are notorious for dividing themselves along lines of ‘who’s from where’.

What are you on about? Seriously what the hell?!?

Bat_Ami wrote: »

You yourself made this point earlier: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60229632&postcount=6 “The problem here, is that any progressive group of Muslims would be very difficult to put together here in Ireland due to a very much splintered community. There is a lof crap that goes on between the various ethnic groups.”

I fail to see the relevance. Why are you trying to change the subject, while ignoring reality?

As you can see from my quote above, I don't ignore reality and try and present a false narrative to make excuse for things.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

There is such a thing as a just war- jihad, holy war, whatever name you want to give it, it exists. It is a just reason for war- I’m not saying that the outcome of war is bright and rosy in the slightest. The Jews were not ‘going to someone else’s country’- they were reclaiming the land that was rightly theirs.

Except it wasn't theres. It belonged to the people living there. What Zionists did was theft plain and simple.

Its hardly just to go and steal something that doesn't belong to me. Religious extremism is no excuse for it either.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Fight for their rights? The Jews are defending their right and that’s to have one place on earth that they can say is their home.

After, stealing it from the indigenous population and taking there homes from them, but they are sub-humans to Zionists so that makes it fine.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

Muslims have a huge chunk of the globe, yet the Jews simply want a small strip of land- they should fully defend it against those who threaten their right to it by all accounts.

How much land Muslims have is irrelevant, as I explained earlier not all Palestinians are not Muslims. The Palestinian had a small patch of land that they lived on and it was stolen from them. This is a indefensible crime.

Bat_Ami wrote: »

As for the conflict itself, I will readily admit that I don’t support all of the Israeli government policy- but not supporting the entirety of the war and not supporting Israel’s right to exist and two VERY different things. The Palestinians say they desire to govern a land they can call their own. The Israelis say they want to live safely. For over two thousand years Jews have constantly been threatened, attacked and evicted, and the Israelis say enough is enough.

The Palestinians are descendants of the Jewish populace. The Israeli's kicked them out. What part of this do you not understand? Is it just that you deny reality when it doesn't jibe with your absurd rationalizations for terrorism, apartheid, war and murder?!?

Bat_Ami wrote: »

That’s all I have to say on the matter and I’m not expecting positivity or agreement in any remote shape or form. I just think there are two sides to this story and it isn’t simply black and white, good and bad. I have many issues with how the Israeli government is choosing to deal with the situation, not only because it is unfair on the Palestinians but also because it is contributing nothing towards making Israel a safer place to live.

I never said anything was black on white. Plenty of shades of grey.

Your right there are 2 stories, doesn't mean there both equally valid. The Zionists narrative, is racist nationalist nonsense in the same vein as European racist nationalism from the 18th and 19th century, in fact Zionism was directly inspired by racist European nationalism. The Zionist narrative, has long since been thorn to shreds and exposed as a pack of worthless lies.

Its nice that you don't agree wit the Israeli government, but to be honest, you completely undermine your position, by making excuses for Israel murderous aggression against the Palestinians and you quite frankly bizarre defense of genocide. Your positions are in no way consistence and your condemnation of Hamas ring hollow, when your own position is a mirror image of theres.

I honestly, don't expect anything from someone who actively denies facts, when they don't fit in with your world view and who constantly excuses murderous violence from one side, while condemning the other as being evil, when there is really no difference between the 2, as both happily murder innocent civilians. Either its wrong for both, or right for both. You can't have you cake and eat it too. Me, personally would think both wrong, and while you may disagree with this, at least its consistent.

Also, tbh, you do more to undermine yourself than any argument that I have presented. You have exposed Zionism for what it is, and that Zionists are no better than the likes of Hamas. For this, I thank you. I really couldn't have done it better myself.

getz

Zaynzma wrote: »

@ getz, I'm surprised you say that Islam/qur'an has always been anti-Jewish, I don't find that to be the case at all. As for the Christian church not being anti-Jewish...Christianity has a long and bloody history of being anti-Jewish, with torture, forced conversions, killings, burnings, slaughterings of Jews (and Muslims), wasn't it the Christians who marched to the Holy Land where people of all 3 faiths were living together in peace, and ended up literally knee deep in the blood of Jews and Muslims.

please read my thread i said the protestant [christian]church hasent been ati/jewish as for the holy wars they started because of the invasion of islam of palestine. if you want to see the connection to the christian/islam read sura 19.2 this tells us jesus began preaching islamic theologe the moment he was born-- it also says that the disciples were muslims 5/6,there are many other strange statements in the suras

A Primal Nut

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

True, and not all jews believe in god.

But, the qustion related to the muslim antipathy to jews and the reason for that is, solely, Israel.

Its stupid for some muslims to hate jews on the basis of Israel - when clearly muslims or their governments around the world cause just as much problems (terrorism, suppression of other religions, wars) as jews and christians. Christians don't go around hating Muslims because many of their governments suppress Chrisitianity or because Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and Kuwait, this would be considered rediculous; yet for many muslims it seems acceptable to hate jews on the basis of whats happening in problems Palestine. When a recent dutch mep candidate said he would ban the Koran there was outrage, while worse discrimination against Christians in the Middle East is ignored and indeed, tolerated.

There also those Muslims who tend to blame all their problems on Isreal and America, when in fact in many cases their greatest enemies are their own governments; yet it is quite rare to hear them express antithesis towards their own government to anything like the degree like they do towards Isreal. Iran is a recent exception and shows they are starting to realise that Israel isn't their only enemy.

Sonic_exyouth

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Its stupid for some muslims to hate jews on the basis of Israel - when clearly muslims or their governments around the world cause just as much problems (terrorism, suppression of other religions, wars) as jews and christians. Christians don't go around hating Muslims because many of their governments suppress Chrisitianity or because Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and Kuwait, this would be considered rediculous; yet for many muslims it seems acceptable to hate jews on the basis of whats happening in problems Palestine. When a recent dutch mep candidate said he would ban the Koran there was outrage, while worse discrimination against Christians in the Middle East is ignored and indeed, tolerated.

There also those Muslims who tend to blame all their problems on Isreal and America, when in fact in many cases their greatest enemies are their own governments; yet it is quite rare to hear them express antithesis towards their own government to anything like the degree like they do towards Isreal. Iran is a recent exception and shows they are starting to realise that Israel isn't their only enemy.

Yes, but...

Israel is a nation predominantly made up of immigrants, or offspring of immigrants, living in traditional Palestine. For most of it's existance it has occupied the palestinian territories, and failed miserably to give them anythin resembling equal rights, and legally allows an American Jew to come to the occupied territories and steal a palestinians home... by virtue of nothing more than their jewishness.

Compare it to the northern protestant distaste for all things papal. Would the anti-papacy really be as strong and extreme where it not for the republican link to the catholic religion?
I put it to you that it would not.

Also, there are far far more anti-muslim political parties in traditionally Christian countries than anti-christian parties in Muslim ones. If your argument was supposed to be 'aren't christians great, aren't muslims horrid', it really doesn't add up.
Also, when it comes to Iran, it has been one of the most open and democratic of middle eastern nations. It always allowed desent, but I'm afraid thats going to be cut down in future.
Compare the allowance of desent in Iran, to the lack of allowance to desent in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc .. the other difference here being that Saudi, Egypt, Jordan, etc are all american allies, so there brutal actions are tolerated, while Irans are condemned - it's hypocracy of the highest order. The natural democracies in the region include Lebanon, who were allowed to have their southern shia areas bombed to bits in a pathetic showing of israeli futile rage when Hezbollah had the audacity to capture and kill some israelis - the same israelis occupying the Lebanese Shebaa farms - despite Israel doing the same with impunity to lebanon and the palestinians. If it's wrong for lebanon, why is it not wrong for israel too?

Aziz Dweik, the palestinian speaker of parliament, was kidnapped in 2006 but only released on june 23rd just gone. Do you honestly think that is Hamas did the same to Reuven Rivlin that there wouldn't be hell to pay ?

Can you see how the hypocracy of the way the Israelis treat arabs, and muslims, can lead to Muslims dislike of all things Israeli, israel being "homeland of the jews", a "jewish democracy" and all non-israeli jews living in "diaspora".
A palestinian who was born in Jaffa does nt have the right of return to go home there..
but a jew who has never set foot in Jaffa, can settle there if they wat, under the "law of return". Why - Because they're a Jew, thats all that is needed.

philologos

wes wrote: »

@Getz,

I would suggest that your read up on Protestant reformer Martin Luther, who wrote a rather disturbing Anti-Semetic treatise, back in the day.

Indeed, Von den Juden und Ihren Lugen (The Jews and their Lies). Wasn't the nicest of books.

However, this doesn't excuse the anti-Semitic screed that has been propogated by Hamas (to children especially, seriously take a youtube search) and others in the Occupied Territories in the past, or holding the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as factual as Hamas do officially.

Edit: The difference is that the anti-Semitism that plagued and corrupted Christianity for centuries is that by and large it is gone. It has left us (not entirely but on the most part), we have truly understood that the Gospel is a Gospel revealed by Jews as a blessing to the Gentiles. However anti-Semitism is still hugely prevalent in the Islamic world.

getz

wes wrote: »

@Getz,

I would suggest that your read up on Protestant reformer Martin Luther, who wrote a rather disturbing Anti-Semetic treatise, back in the day.

wes you can not blacken all protestant churches by one of them who may have had ant/jewish ideas-just to note the number of different different protestant churches is now upto 23,000 and still growing

wes

getz wrote: »

wes you can not blacken all protestant churches by one of them who may have had ant/jewish ideas-just to note the number of different different protestant churches is now upto 23,000 and still growing

I wasn't trying to, I was just pointing that there were Protestants that were Anti-Semetic.

wes

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, Von den Juden und Ihren Lugen (The Jews and their Lies). Wasn't the nicest of books.

However, this doesn't excuse the anti-Semitic screed that has been propogated by Hamas (to children especially, seriously take a youtube search) and others in the Occupied Territories in the past, or holding the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as factual as Hamas do officially.

I never mentioned Hamas in my post at all. Just pointing something out was all.

Jakkass wrote: »

Edit: The difference is that the anti-Semitism that plagued and corrupted Christianity for centuries is that by and large it is gone. It has left us (not entirely but on the most part), we have truly understood that the Gospel is a Gospel revealed by Jews as a blessing to the Gentiles. However anti-Semitism is still hugely prevalent in the Islamic world.

True enough, but you can't pretend that the hatred in that part of the world isn't a 2 way street. Just look at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, which is in largely motivated by a similar irrational hatred. This doesn't make either side right to hate one another in anyway, but both sides do hate each other.

philologos

wes wrote: »

I never mentioned Hamas in my post at all. Just pointing something out was all.

No, I brought them in, my bad

wes wrote: »

True enough, but you can't pretend that the hatred in that part of the world isn't a 2 way street. Just look at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, which is in largely motivated by a similar irrational hatred. This doesn't make either side right to hate one another in anyway, but both sides do hate each other.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. There are certain attitudes amongst Jews that are hateful towards Palestinian. They seem to be found more in ultra-Orthodox settlers rather than in the general Israeli population. However strong political opinions concerning the Palestinians can be found across the board from Avigador Lieberman saying that the Palestinians should be expelled in the past, right down to Baruch Goldstein who killed Muslims praying during Eid in the Cave of the Patriarchs, where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, Leah, and Joseph are thought to have been buried if we deal from the Genesis account.

So yes, I will concede that Jewish attitudes towards Palestinians can be far from favourable in a lot of cases. However, I'm merely saying that the pervasive attitude of anti-Semitism in Islam remains, but it has long departed Christianity.

I hope I make sense, if I am not coherent, it is probably because I should be asleep

Sonic_exyouth

Jakkass wrote: »

No, I brought them in, my bad



Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. There are certain attitudes amongst Jews that are hateful towards Palestinian. They seem to be found more in ultra-Orthodox settlers rather than in the general Israeli population. However strong political opinions concerning the Palestinians can be found across the board from Avigador Lieberman saying that the Palestinians should be expelled in the past, right down to Baruch Goldstein who killed Muslims praying during Eid in the Cave of the Patriarchs, where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, Leah, and Joseph are thought to have been buried if we deal from the Genesis account.

So yes, I will concede that Jewish attitudes towards Palestinians can be far from favourable in a lot of cases. However, I'm merely saying that the pervasive attitude of anti-Semitism in Islam remains, but it has long departed Christianity.

I hope I make sense, if I am not coherent, it is probably because I should be asleep

Apologies, but I disagree with the Ultra Orthodox bit.

It's been my observence that the most anti-palestinian, and indeed anti-arab, have been (Paradoxically) the Arab Jews - the Sephardi and Mizrahi, as well as the Faux Jews from the former USSR and the immigrants from the USA. The settlers, who are overwhelmingly immigrants, being the most vociferous.

And, actually, I have observed that the Haredi (Or Ultra Orthodox as people like to call them) are the most anti-israeli israelis and pro-palestinian.

philologos

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

It's been my observence that the most anti-palestinian, and indeed anti-arab, have been (Paradoxically) the Arab Jews - the Sephardi and Mizrahi, as well as the Faux Jews from the former USSR and the immigrants from the USA. The settlers, who are overwhelmingly immigrants, being the most vociferous.

Yes, but many of these settlers are ultra-Orthodox if not most.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

And, actually, I have observed that the Haredi (Or Ultra Orthodox as people like to call them) are the most anti-israeli israelis and pro-palestinian.

You seem to be referring to the Neutra Karta, they are by far a minority within Orthodox Judaism. They feel the Israeli settlement is against the Torah on the grounds the Messiah hasn't come yet. That's their main objection. When the one who they consider to be the Messiah comes, trust me, many of them will be just as vocal.