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Politics and Degeneration
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My apologies. Thought you were a socialist actually!
I actually agree with you; there does need to be more checks and balances than there currently are. But for the present moment they have served us OK. Ireland is one of the few electoral democracies in the world that emerged from the ashes of WWI that has stood all that time in a continuous and unbroken state. Thats quite an achievement - it puts us in the same political culture as the USA and the UK.
And its not that I think we should be apathetic persé. I'm saying that getting hot and bothered about the particulars of party politics is absurd. As long as the base remains secure then we're Ok.
And if anything liberty has increased in Ireland over the 20 years. Dramatically so in fact. Personal liberty has increased exponentially. As has economic liberty. If we're talking about the UK you may have a point but certainly not Ireland.
And we disagree over the fundamentals of government. I see it primarily as a big public service - sort of like a management agency that ties all the complex services we need to have a tolerable standard of living. I'm guessing you desire greater privatisation. But I consider that to be a peripheral difference in the essentials of limiting power, guaranteeing personal liberty and some sort of economic liberty.0 -
My apologies. Thought you were a socialist actually!
Socialism is not my thing.
I am some where between minimalist government Libertarian and free market anarchist.
not very main stream I admit.I actually agree with you; there does need to be more checks and balances than there currently are. But for the present moment they have served us OK. Ireland is one of the few electoral democracies in the world that emerged from the ashes of WWI that has stood all that time in a continuous and unbroken state. Thats quite an achievement - it puts us in the same political culture as the USA and the UK.
You are right that we have a had a pretty stable political system since independence, no Cout de tas here.
Irish people do not go in for extreme politics or rapid changes in policy.
Extreme politics of any kind do have a very small following. In some way that is a good thing.
Not sure the main stream political culture of USA and the UK in recent year is anything to admire.And its not that I think we should be apathetic persé. I'm saying that getting hot and bothered about the particulars of party politics is absurd.
trueAs long as the base remains secure then we're Ok.
not sure what that means.And if anything liberty has increased in Ireland over the 20 years. Dramatically so in fact. Personal liberty has increased exponentially. As has economic liberty. If we're talking about the UK you may have a point but certainly not Ireland.
personnel liberty has increased in the in that the emergency powers the state was run under during the troubles are gone now.
Economic liberty in some ways as it is easier to move money in and out of the country and buying for investment is no legal.
Against that having money in the from of cash in any thing other that small amounts is consider to be almost a crime and not having a bank that can be monitored by the state again is viewed as an indication of criminal activity.
Criminal assets Bureau has decreased our liberty in that it can confiscate peoples assets even if they have not be convicted of a crime.
There is surveillance and phone tapping than before.And we disagree over the fundamentals of government. I see it primarily as a big public service - sort of like a management agency that ties all the complex services we need to have a tolerable standard of living. I'm guessing you desire greater privatisation. But I consider that to be a peripheral difference in the essentials of limiting power, guaranteeing personal liberty and some sort of economic liberty.
You are correct I do have a different view of the functions of government.
Not sure I like how privatisation has been done it seem it changed state monopolies in to private ones.( not much improvement)
as you say personal liberty is very important as is economic liberty.0 -
who else's opinion would I be giving ?
Maybe I could have been clearer here, I mean its your opinion that these policies are incompetent so it is not correct to call the system unfair because you disagree with the opinions of others.Who said I am angry.
Now you are speaking for the majority of the people in Ireland ?
I made the assumption a perceived unfairness might rub you the wrong way.
Im not speaking for the majority in Ireland im referring to the lack of a libertarian/anarchist party in existence in this state.What else would a labour supporter do?
I do not understand that last point. Do you think I am try to purswade people that my ideas are wrong?
I am suggesting that instead of claiming the system is unfair it would be more constructive for you to convince others of your ideology.
Dont see how I suggested you tell people why your ideology is wrong.0 -
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Maybe I could have been clearer here, I mean its your opinion that these policies are incompetent so it is not correct to call the system unfair because you disagree with the opinions of others.
I never said the system was unfair. I think people having different political opinions in normal and a good thing.I made the assumption a perceived unfairness might rub you the wrong way.
Im not speaking for the majority in Ireland im referring to the lack of a libertarian/anarchist party in existence in this state.
Parties in Ireland are personality driven rather than ideology.I am suggesting that instead of claiming the system is unfair it would be more constructive for you to convince others of your ideology.
Dont see how I suggested you tell people why your ideology is wrong.
Again I never said the system was unfair.
The reason I do not promote any ideology in this thread is it would be off topic as the question.Does electoral democracy ultimately always degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?0 -
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I never said the system was unfair. I think people having different political opinions in normal and a good thing.
Parties in Ireland are personality driven rather than ideology.
Again I never said the system was unfair.
The reason I do not promote any ideology in this thread is it would be off topic as the question.
I was assuming your distaste for the way things are was due to unfairness as in when you say " it deprives the people of a real choice".
And your agreement(via thanks) with turgons post "There is everything wrong with that. How can we claim to be so democratic when, given that each of the 3 options are the same, we really dont have a choice?
I disagree that parties are not driven by ideology, I think they do have ideologies but the clarity of the ideologies is skewed due to the civil war.
I wanst suggesting you talk about your ideology here I was suggesting hat instead of giving out about the lack of a libertarian party you garner the support that could be there and set one up in order to give the "deprived people there choice"0 -
I was assuming your distaste for the way things are was due to unfairness as in when you say " it deprives the people of a real choice".
And your agreement(via thanks) with turgons post "There is everything wrong with that. How can we claim to be so democratic when, given that each of the 3 options are the same, we really dont have a choice?
I disagree that parties are not driven by ideology, I think they do have ideologies but the clarity of the ideologies is skewed due to the civil war.
I wanst suggesting you talk about your ideology here I was suggesting hat instead of giving out about the lack of a libertarian party you garner the support that could be there and set one up in order to give the "deprived people there choice"
What are you moaning about? He's entitled to give his opinion without having to constantly qualify it.0 -
What are you moaning about? He's entitled to give his opinion without having to constantly qualify it.
Ive written what Im "moaning" about in my post care to respond to that?
Do you know how a discussion forum works?
And if he cant qualify it(which Im sure he can) he should reconsider it.0 -
I was assuming your distaste for the way things are was due to unfairness as in when you say " it deprives the people of a real choice".
And your agreement(via thanks) with turgons post "There is everything wrong with that. How can we claim to be so democratic when, given that each of the 3 options are the same, we really dont have a choice?
I disagree that parties are not driven by ideology, I think they do have ideologies but the clarity of the ideologies is skewed due to the civil war.
I wanst suggesting you talk about your ideology here I was suggesting hat instead of giving out about the lack of a libertarian party you garner the support that could be there and set one up in order to give the "deprived people there choice"
I did not complain about the lack of a Libertarian party. This not what this thread is about.
My complaint is about the lack of diversity of thought, opinions and ideas in the Dáil including non-libertarian ones.
if the main parties in the Dáil were all Libertarian and the only debate was about personalties this too would not be good.0 -
I did not complain about the lack of a Libertarian party. This not what this thread is about.
My complaint is about the lack of diversity of thought, opinions and ideas in the Dáil including non-libertarian ones.
if the main parties in the Dáil were all Libertarian and the only debate was about personalties this too would not be good.
so would you prefer an affirmative action system?
I dont agree its a bad thing that the majority of people in the Dail reflect the attitude of the majority of those outside it.
I dont see who is being deprived of choice?0 -
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so would you prefer an affirmative action system?
I dont agree its a bad thing that the majority of people in the Dail reflect the attitude of the majority of those outside it.
I dont see who is being deprived of choice?
affirmative action system. Not quite sure what you mean by affirmative action system in an Irish political context.
I am not sure that the majority in the Dáil reflect the attitude of the people outside it.
The elector register is years out of date and open to manipulation.
The Labour party to their credit asked that the elector register be update at the time of the census by asking the census collectors to do both jobs at the same time. FG and FF rejected this idea.
Also other political opinions or ideas tend not to to be discussed in the mainstream media so most people are not aware of them.0 -
affirmative action system. Not quite sure what you mean by affirmative action system in an Irish political context.
I am not sure that the majority in the Dáil reflect the attitude of the people outside it.
The elector register is years out of date and open to manipulation.
The Labour party to their credit asked that the elector register be update at the time of the census by asking the census collectors to do both jobs at the same time. FG and FF rejected this idea.
Also other political opinions or ideas tend not to to be discussed in the mainstream media so most people are not aware of them.
I mean having a quota for representation of certain ideologies, I dont think its workable really, but just thought Id put it out there...
Whatever is on the register would you agree its votes that count? and each persons own initiative to register them selves to vote?
(I think I may be missing how you mean the register can be manipulated could you elaborate please?)
The media argument doesn't quiet float you get every fringe political movement claiming that, isnt it the responsibility of the movement to garner media attention? or do you feel the media is biased in Ireland, if so why?0 -
I mean having a quota for representation of certain ideologies, I dont think its workable really, but just thought Id put it out there...
As you not a good idea.Whatever is on the register would you agree its votes that count? and each persons own initiative to register them selves to vote?
The elector register is suppose to represent the people who are eligible to vote. It does not. I neighbour of mine who has been dead for several years on on the elector register.
if the elector register is not accurate does an election reflect the will of the people.(I think I may be missing how you mean the register can be manipulated could you elaborate please?)
activist for political parties have been removing and adding people to the elector register for many years.The media argument doesn't quiet float you get every fringe political movement claiming that, isnt it the responsibility of the movement to garner media attention? or do you feel the media is biased in Ireland, if so why?
Because they only talk about the ideas of the parties already in the Dail.
When they talk about he economy they only discuss it for the point of view of one school of ecnomic with mention there are others.
Is the media bias? Depend on what you mean by Bias. The media suffer from the same lack of ideas that is present in Irish politics.0 -
The elector register is suppose to represent the people who are eligible to vote. It does not. I neighbour of mine who has been dead for several years on on the elector register.
if the elector register is not accurate does an election reflect the will of the people.
activist for political parties have been removing and adding people to the elector register for many years.
I still dont see how people being registered to vote can be sued to anyone's advantage.Because they only talk about the ideas of the parties already in the Dail.
When they talk about he economy they only discuss it for the point of view of one school of ecnomic with mention there are others.
Is the media bias? Depend on what you mean by Bias. The media suffer from the same lack of ideas that is present in Irish politics.
They talk abut the polices of their own parties because thats what they were voted in for, people choose them because they agree with those polices.
I dont think youll find anyone really looks at things form only one school of economic thought, thats a recipe for trouble. I think youll find the reason things appear populist to you is because modern politics is not as straightforward as it used to be or as political philosophy or the classical separation of ideologies would have you believe.
What we have now are more hybrid parties, and the reason for this is that the original ideologies dont work or arent suitable today, if you believe there is a convergence cant you agree that it is because people see the issues converging as being best dealt with in a certain way.0 -
I still dont see how people being registered to vote can be sued to anyone's advantage.
people are removed for the elector register who are known not to vote for the party of the people that removed. Them people who are lightly to vote for a party are added to the elector register. In some cases multiple times
Who are they ? the media or political parties ?They talk abut the polices of their own parties because thats what they were voted in for,people choose them because they agree with those polices.
If people have never heard any other point of view, they could hardly be giving informed consent.I dont think youll find anyone really looks at things form only one school of economic thought, thats a recipe for trouble.
That is what happen now. Keynesian school of economics is the only school used by the political parties or the media.I think youll find the reason things appear populist to you is because modern politics is not as straightforward as it used to be or as political philosophy or the classical separation of ideologies would have you believe.
From what I can tell Irish political have always been like this. I do not remember a classical separation of ideologies.What we have now are more hybrid parties,
it more all things to all men parties rather than hybrid parties.
and the reason for this is that the original ideologies dont work or arent suitable today,[/QUOTE]
I do not think it is because some ideologies have failed the main Irish parties were never interested in them in the first place.if you believe there is a convergence cant you agree that it is because people see the issues converging as being best dealt with in a certain way.
This would be a good point if there was a reason discussion in the media an else where on the merits of different approach to the issues many points of view.
It practice people are present with one point of view.0 -
people are removed for the elector register who are known not to vote for the party of the people that removed. Them people who are lightly to vote for a party are added to the elector register. In some cases multiple times
So who is rigging the election?
the partiesWho are they ? the media or political parties ?If people have never heard any other point of view, they could hardly be giving informed consent.
They are not being denied the point of view, and the reason they arent many people flouting certain points of view is mainly because they are redundant.
They are not as you said being deprived of anything.That is what happen now. Keynesian school of economics is the only school used by the political parties or the media.
to different ends and for different means I might add, and the reason most people use it, and the reason it is the main system almost all over the world is because it is the most practical and can be used to the greater benefit.
what alternative would you like to see?From what I can tell Irish political have always been like this. I do not remember a classical separation of ideologies.
This can be drawn back to the civil war, still people choose to keep the parties dynamics this way, no one is being deprived.
good help a party that acts beyond classical definitions, you do get that those definitions are used to identify parties for academic or journalism purposes, they are not rules for how a party should act, and a party trying to make as much of the electorate happy is noting to be sneered at as long as they do so responsibly.it more all things to all men parties rather than hybrid parties.I do not think it is because some ideologies have failed the main Irish parties were never interested in them in the first place.
Yes because you had lads going to Spain fighting on two sides for what, once again your fetish for having political parties act according to classical definitions is setting your self up for let down, get over it.This would be a good point if there was a reason discussion in the media an else where on the merits of different approach to the issues many points of view.
It practice people are present with one point of view.
the reason you dont see these points of view is because almost know one is realistically advocating them,0 -
So who is rigging the election?
I never said that the election was rigged. I said that the elector register is open to political parties or others adding or remove people for it.
if the elector register does not accurately reflect the electorate, then how valid is the result of an election based on an unreliable elector register.
This question was asked in Northern Ireland many years ago. They now have an accurate and up-to-date elector register and a system to keep it up to date and accurate.They are not being denied the point of view, and the reason they arent many people flouting certain points of view is mainly because they are redundant.
They are not as you said being deprived of anything.
I did say any one was being denied a point of view or deprived of a point of view. I said they never heard other point of view in the main stream media.
Who decides what ideas are redundant?
I do not think it is chosen because it is the best or most practical. I think it is chosen because people have not heard what the alternative is.to different ends and for different means I might add, and the reason most people use it, and the reason it is the main system almost all over the world is because it is the most practical and can be used to the greater benefit.what alternative would you like to see?
I would like people to hear that are a number of different schools of economics for example not just one. The same should apply to other issues. if the other ones are as useless as you say them people will not choose them, but at least they will be able to make an informed choice.This can be drawn back to the civil war, still people choose to keep the parties dynamics this way, no one is being deprived.
Again I did not say people are being deprived.good help a party that acts beyond classical definitions, you do get that those definitions are used to identify parties for academic or journalism purposes, they are not rules for how a party should act, and a party trying to make as much of the electorate happy is noting to be sneered at as long as they do so responsibly.
I have no objection to a party with mixed policies. The problem is all the main political parties follow more or less the same policies. Variations on a theme. I did not sneer at any political party.
any party trying to make as much of the electorate happy normal normally has only a short term effect.Yes because you had lads going to Spain fighting on two sides for what, once again your fetish for having political parties act according to classical definitions is setting your self up for let down, get over it.
I do not send any one to Spain. Fight on both side of wars is an old and Irish tradition that has nothing to do with political parties.
I did not say any thing about classical definitions of political parties.
I said we need more ideas and diversity, whether that is in a single party or more that one party or from independents does not concern me.the reason you dont see these points of view is because almost know one is realistically advocating them,
No one in Ireland is running for election on any ideas other than those already in the Dail because on one has heard of any other in the main stream media.
The original question was.
Does electoral democracy ultimately always degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?
Yes. Democracy will ultimately tend to degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology.
Is this a good thing ?
I do not thing so, even if I agreed with the ideology or lack of it that such a system produced.0 -
I never said that the election was rigged. I said that the elector register is open to political parties or others adding or remove people for it.
if the elector register does not accurately reflect the electorate, then how valid is the result of an election based on an unreliable elector register.
This question was asked in Northern Ireland many years ago. They now have an accurate and up-to-date elector register and a system to keep it up to date and accurate.
okay the electoral register might not be up to date, this helps who in what way?I did say any one was being denied a point of view or deprived of a point of view. I said they never heard other point of view in the main stream media.
Who decides what ideas are redundant?Yes because it deprives the people of a real choice and is a sign of a failed political system.
Know one is using the idea, it is redundant.I do not think it is chosen because it is the best or most practical. I think it is chosen because people have not heard what the alternative is.
Which alternative?I would like people to hear that are a number of different schools of economics for example not just one. The same should apply to other issues. if the other ones are as useless as you say them people will not choose them, but at least they will be able to make an informed choice.
No one is hiding anything, do you think it is a duty of the government to teach everyone whether they care or not about the different schools of economics?Again I did not say people are being deprived.Yes because it deprives the people of a real choice and is a sign of a failed political system.I have no objection to a party with mixed policies. The problem is all the main political parties follow more or less the same policies. Variations on a theme. I did not sneer at any political party.
any party trying to make as much of the electorate happy normal normally has only a short term effect.
They follow the same policies because they are more or less what people want.
Hence they are all elected on those policies and those offering alternatives are not elected.
There is also a difference between populism and the detriments that can have and the majority of the parties similar school of economic thought.I do not send any one to Spain. Fight on both side of wars is an old and Irish tradition that has nothing to do with political parties.
who was the civil war in Spain fought by, and what was it that lead to Irish fighting on different sides?I did not say any thing about classical definitions of political parties.
I said we need more ideas and diversity, whether that is in a single party or more that one party or from independents does not concern me.
No one in Ireland is running for election on any ideas other than those already in the Dail because on one has heard of any other in the main stream media.
No one is stopping people from learning about other ideologies and no one is stopping anyone from bringing other ideologies into the media, you have noting to complain about other than your disagreement with the choices the Irish people have made through out the history of the state.The original question was.
Does electoral democracy ultimately always degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?
Yes. Democracy will ultimately tend to degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology.
Is this a good thing ?
I do not thing so, even if I agreed with the ideology or lack of it that such a system produced.
And your basing this assumption completely on what has happened in Ireland's short history, whilst completely ignoring the civil war that skewed Irish politics to this day?0 -
"Seven voters in 'empty' house beat deadline to get on register
By Michael Brennan Political Correspondent
Tuesday June 23 2009
FEARS of electoral fraud will be raised in the Dail today after it emerged that seven immigrants were registered to vote at an empty house which had not been lived in for almost three years.
The suspect voters were added to the voting list in Monaghan just days before the deadline for registration expired, an Irish Independent investigation has found.
The voters were registered to a two-bedroomed house in the town of Ballybay.
The man responsible for looking after the house last night confirmed that nobody has lived there for almost three years -- and that the owner is currently in the USA.
Neither of them were aware the house was listed as the address for seven immigrant voters who were added late to the electoral register.
The issue is due to be raised in the Dail today by Fine Gael Cavan-Monaghan TD Seymour Crawford.
The revelation will increase the pressure on Environment Minister John Gormley to look again at the concept of using PPS numbers to ensure the electoral register is accurate.
Mr Crawford said it raised major questions about the operation of the electoral system.
"If suddenly we find there are more people in houses than there is in a normal day and large numbers are being added just weeks before an election, I think the whole electoral system has to be looked at," he told the Irish Independent.
He said he understood the majority of the seven voters registered to the house at 2 Church Street, Ballybay, had voted in the local elections.
Monaghan County Council spokeswoman Carmel Thornton said the council had been unable to check the hundreds of names that were added late to the supplementary register.
"We had about 500 applications received in the last half day of the closing date. It was impossible to check those because the county registrar was waiting to publish the supplementary register," she said.
Monaghan County Council had earlier struck around a dozen immigrant voters off its preliminary electoral register after a fieldworker found they were not living at the address they had supplied.
Resources
It carried out the checks in Carrickmacross and Clones, but not in Ballybay due to a lack of resources.
Many of the forms requiring late registrations were supplied to the local authority by politicians, a practice which is common across the country.
Ms Thornton said all of the voters who were added to the list had provided signed forms, stamped by gardai.
"The only people who were put on the supplement were people who had completed the form which had been signed by a garda and stamped in a garda station. We would have taken it that they would have proved their identities to gardai," she said.
But this raises the question as to how seven immigrant voters got onto the county's supplementary register by giving an address for a house they did not live in.
The keyholder of the house, Noel Saunderson, showed the Irish Independent that the house in Ballybay was empty.
A spokesman for Mr Gormley expressed concern but said that the matter could only be investigated if there was a complaint to gardai or to the local electoral returning officer. "
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-voters-in-empty-house-beat-deadline-to-get-on-register-1784865.html
This not good for Democracy.0 -
"Seven voters in 'empty' house beat deadline to get on register
By Michael Brennan Political Correspondent
Tuesday June 23 2009
FEARS of electoral fraud will be raised in the Dail today after it emerged that seven immigrants were registered to vote at an empty house which had not been lived in for almost three years.
The suspect voters were added to the voting list in Monaghan just days before the deadline for registration expired, an Irish Independent investigation has found.
The voters were registered to a two-bedroomed house in the town of Ballybay.
The man responsible for looking after the house last night confirmed that nobody has lived there for almost three years -- and that the owner is currently in the USA.
Neither of them were aware the house was listed as the address for seven immigrant voters who were added late to the electoral register.
The issue is due to be raised in the Dail today by Fine Gael Cavan-Monaghan TD Seymour Crawford.
The revelation will increase the pressure on Environment Minister John Gormley to look again at the concept of using PPS numbers to ensure the electoral register is accurate.
Mr Crawford said it raised major questions about the operation of the electoral system.
"If suddenly we find there are more people in houses than there is in a normal day and large numbers are being added just weeks before an election, I think the whole electoral system has to be looked at," he told the Irish Independent.
He said he understood the majority of the seven voters registered to the house at 2 Church Street, Ballybay, had voted in the local elections.
Monaghan County Council spokeswoman Carmel Thornton said the council had been unable to check the hundreds of names that were added late to the supplementary register.
"We had about 500 applications received in the last half day of the closing date. It was impossible to check those because the county registrar was waiting to publish the supplementary register," she said.
Monaghan County Council had earlier struck around a dozen immigrant voters off its preliminary electoral register after a fieldworker found they were not living at the address they had supplied.
Resources
It carried out the checks in Carrickmacross and Clones, but not in Ballybay due to a lack of resources.
Many of the forms requiring late registrations were supplied to the local authority by politicians, a practice which is common across the country.
Ms Thornton said all of the voters who were added to the list had provided signed forms, stamped by gardai.
"The only people who were put on the supplement were people who had completed the form which had been signed by a garda and stamped in a garda station. We would have taken it that they would have proved their identities to gardai," she said.
But this raises the question as to how seven immigrant voters got onto the county's supplementary register by giving an address for a house they did not live in.
The keyholder of the house, Noel Saunderson, showed the Irish Independent that the house in Ballybay was empty.
A spokesman for Mr Gormley expressed concern but said that the matter could only be investigated if there was a complaint to gardai or to the local electoral returning officer. "
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-voters-in-empty-house-beat-deadline-to-get-on-register-1784865.html
This not good for Democracy.
very fixable and not very relevant to the topic at hand.0 -
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okay the electoral register might not be up to date, this helps who in what way?
It tends to favour the larger parties.Know one is using the idea, it is redundant.
No one was using a republic or a constitution when the American introduced them.Which alternative?
There are a lots of other ideas on how to rule economics or politics that than the ones we are using.No one is hiding anything, do you think it is a duty of the government to teach everyone whether they care or not about the different schools of economics?
Normally that would be the media and education systems role. I do not think the government should be involved in teaching.They follow the same policies because they are more or less what people want.
Hence they are all elected on those policies and those offering alternatives are not elected.
My point is there are no alternatives offered and Irish politics is personality driven rather than policy driven.
You may be correct if Irish people were aware of other systems of economics, legal system etc and and were given a broad choice , they might think the system they have now is the best and vote for it.There is also a difference between populism and the detriments that can have and the majority of the parties similar school of economic thought.
as you say populism and lack of choice are too different problems.who was the civil war in Spain fought by, and what was it that lead to Irish fighting on different sides?
Not sure what who, were the people who fought the spanish civil war has to do with Irish politics?
The Irish always seem to fight on both sides in wars around the world.No one is stopping people from learning about other ideologies and no one is stopping anyone from bringing other ideologies into the media, you have noting to complain about other than your disagreement with the choices the Irish people have made through out the history of the state.
You are correct this information is not banned, but it is not in the main stream media where most people get their information.
The main stream media tends to reflect the views of the owners of that media.
My point is not that the present system is not the best one, my point is it is the only one that people are offered.
if people were offered informed choice and picked this one , I think that would be fine.And your basing this assumption completely on what has happened in Ireland's short history, whilst completely ignoring the civil war that skewed Irish politics to this day?
It has happen in other countries too. The civil war split the nationalist moment that is true. I am not sure what that has to do with the lack of diversity in Irish politics and the media.
getting back to the original questionDoes electoral democracy ultimately always degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?
The tendency has been in many countries with electoral democracy for there to be a lack of choice in politics and in the media.
the questions that interest me are.
Why this happens.
Is it a good thing?
if it is not a good thing, what could be to to improve the choices people have.
if it is a good thing happy days we keep doing what we are doing now.0 -
It tends to favour the larger parties.
how exactly?, I still dont see any real evidence that this does anything.
these were new ideas many ideas such as communism, libertarianism, fascism have been abandoned as they've proved them selves redundant in that society moved away form them.No one was using a republic or a constitution when the American introduced them.There are a lots of other ideas on how to rule economics or politics that than the ones we are using.
but the ones we are using are best and most common practice, albeit they're being used here inefficiently.Normally that would be the media and education systems role. I do not think the government should be involved in teaching.
what aspect of the government being involved with teaching do you disagree with and who should regulate the education system and monitor the standard of education?
there are alternatives on offer and yes Irish politics is all to often more personality driven rather than policy driven but that's of little relevance to the original point.My point is there are no alternatives offered and Irish politics is personality driven rather than policy driven.You may be correct if Irish people were aware of other systems of economics, legal system etc and and were given a broad choice , they might think the system they have now is the best and vote for it.
any one can offer them an alternative, many have,Not sure what who, were the people who fought the spanish civil war has to do with Irish politics?
The Irish always seem to fight on both sides in wars around the world.
you need to read up on history a bit, the spanish civil war is or relevance to Irish politics because irish people travelled to Spain to fight there based on idealogical principals, and those who travelled were often very much involved in Irish politics at the time.
this refutes your statement "the main Irish parties were never interested in them in the first place. "You are correct this information is not banned, but it is not in the main stream media where most people get their information.
The main stream media tends to reflect the views of the owners of that media.
My point is not that the present system is not the best one, my point is it is the only one that people are offered.
if people were offered informed choice and picked this one , I think that would be fine.
you still haven't proved in any way that the current systems are the only ones that are offered, merely you that you'd prefer ever political opinion be granted broadcast time or something?
No one is stopping any one offering alternatives and no one is stopping people form accepting or seeking out alternatives.It has happen in other countries too. The civil war split the nationalist moment that is true. I am not sure what that has to do with the lack of diversity in Irish politics and the media.
getting back to the original question
You are not sure because you do not appear to know much about Irish political history. In other countries the civil wars at that time were fought between the right and the left, here our civil war was fought between tow nationalist parties. The divisions of these civil wars have resonated into modern politics. That is why Ireland has a 2 and a half party system, and that is why other countries have much clearer party divides, but you have ignored the particulars of the Irish civil war and ignored every other example of governance outside of Europe in reaching your assumptions.
The tendency has been in many countries with electoral democracy for there to be a lack of choice in politics and in the media.the questions that interest me is.
Why this happens.
Is it a good thing?
if it is not a good thing, what could be to to improve the choices people have.
if it is a good thing happy days we keep doing what we are doing now.
you need to reassert your assumptions before you question them.0 -
how exactly?, I still dont see any real evidence that this does anything.
It would need to be be investigated to prove it one way or the other.these were new ideas many ideas such as communism, libertarianism, fascism have been abandoned as they've proved them selves redundant in that society moved away form them.
Republics had been tried in the past in Romans times and before the Americans started theirs.but the ones we are using are best and most common practice, albeit they're being used here inefficiently.
I do agreed the system we are using is very common.what aspect of the government being involved with teaching do you disagree with and who should regulate the education system and monitor the standard of education?
The one you spoke about, the government teaching ecnomic system and political theory.any one can offer them an alternative, many have,
in theory yes in practice no.you need to read up on history a bit, the spanish civil war is or relevance to Irish politics because irish people travelled to Spain to fight there based on idealogical principals, and those who travelled were often very much involved in Irish politics at the time.
this refutes your statement "the main Irish parties were never interested in them in the first place. "
Who said I had not read history ?
The people who travelled to Spain were at the margins of Irish Politics.
It refutes nothing.you still haven't proved in any way that the current systems are the only ones that are offered, merely you that you'd prefer ever political opinion be granted broadcast time or something?
No one is stopping any one offering alternatives and no one is stopping people form accepting or seeking out alternatives.
are you now saying at there is a diversity of options placed before the |Irish people?
granted broadcast time ? by who
you are correct it is not banned. It just does not appear in the main stream media.You are not sure because you do not appear to know much about Irish political history. In other countries the civil wars at that time were fought between the right and the left, here our civil war was fought between tow nationalist parties. The divisions of these civil wars have resonated into modern politics. That is why Ireland has a 2 and a half party system, and that is why other countries have much clearer party divides, but you have ignored the particulars of the Irish civil war and ignored every other example of governance outside of Europe in reaching your assumptions.
The tendency has been in many countries with electoral democracy for there to be a lack of choice in politics and in the media.
Irish politics was split by the civil war granted. I am not talking about the lack of a clear political dvide in Irish political parties.
I am talking about the lack political ideas in Irish politics in general.
Do you have some example out side of Europe in mind?You need to reassert your assumptions before you question them.
What assumption might those be.
For what I can see the main political parties follow similar policies. The only disagreement is what party or parties will be the best a managing these policies.
Democracies have tended to move toward Consensus politics.0 -
Does electoral democracy ultimately always degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?
When you say electoral democracy do you mean one like the UK and New Zealand that are not republics and do not have a written constitution.
The question amuses that a divide between 2 groups at believe in the same ideas is a degenerated form of Democracy.
Does electoral democracy ultimately tend to move toward a personality biased debate on who can manage the activist government better, between two or more groups who fundamentally have the same ideology?
From what I have observed electoral democracy tends to move toward consensus politics based on activist government with the main stream media reflecting this.
This can lead to lack of fresh thinking in Politics and the media.0 -
so its a null point.It would need to be be investigated to prove it one way or the other.
these are not very comparable very much beyond terminology.Republics had been tried in the past in Romans times and before the Americans started theirs.I do agreed the system we are using is very common.
your point?The one you spoke about, the government teaching ecnomic system and political theory.
I think youll find any university teaching a wide variety of economic and political thought, and very little of either in schools but thats another issue.in theory yes in practice no.
no in theory and practice yes, there are socialists,greens, there were pds, there are nationalists, republican socialists, christian democrats and a few others an all thats keeping them back is a lack of mandate.
Who said I had not read history ?The people who travelled to Spain were at the margins of Irish Politics.
It refutes nothing.
it proves your statement "From what I can tell Irish political have always been like this. I do not remember a classical separation of ideologies" is a false simplification.are you now saying at there is a diversity of options placed before the |Irish people?
yes and there were many others at others points in time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Parties_not_officially_registeredgranted broadcast time ? by who
your problem is "it is not in the main stream media where most people get their information" so would you like to force the mainstream media to express any and every political opinions by granting them all broadcasting time?
a lot do thinks dont, its not the media's job to offer them anything.you are correct it is not banned. It just does not appear in the main stream media.
Political movements are responsible for there own headway get over it.Irish politics was split by the civil war granted. I am not talking about the lack of a clear political dvide in Irish political parties.
I am talking about the lack political ideas in Irish politics in general.
"it is not in the main stream media where most people get their information."-
you were.
Ive already shown you there are many ideas out there,
Why?Do you have some example out side of Europe in mind?What assumption might those be.
"My point is not that the present system is not the best one, my point is it is the only one that people are offered."
"Yes. Democracy will ultimately tend to degenerate into a vain and irrelevant ego match between two groups who fundamentally have the same ideology."
"No one in Ireland is running for election on any ideas other than those already in the Dail because on one has heard of any other in the main stream media."
And lets not get started on your contradictions.For what I can see the main political parties follow similar policies. The only disagreement is what party or parties will be the best a managing these policies.
Democracies have tended to move toward Consensus politics.
FG and FF follow similar policies on most things, the rest differ.
And you've got it mixed up the parties generally agree on goals they differ on how they want to achieve these goals.0
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