Locke was never meant to be Leader?

PirateShampoo

Locke was never meant to be the Leader.

The whole Locke becoming leader follows the compass time loop.

Richard tells Locke he's the Leader in present, Lock goes back in time and tells Richard that he is the leader because Richard told him in the future and the Loop continues.

Locke died at the end of his time loop which is when Esua takes over his fake leader position.

conchubhar1

if locke is now ''esau'' why does he ask ben why did he fake his convo with jacob

just ****in with the mans mind? it was already easy to convince him to kill jacob anyway...

ArmaniJeanss

conchubhar1 wrote: »

if locke is now ''esau'' why does he ask ben why did he fake his convo with jacob

just ****in with the mans mind? it was already easy to convince him to kill jacob anyway...

I think he was just 'covering the bases', repeatedly reminding Ben how badly he'd been treated by Jacob over the years. Effectively humiliated.

'Esau' has spent, what, 150+ years building up to this loophole. So he isn't leaving anything to chance.

conchubhar1

i suppose

i wouldnt count jacob out of here, he didnt fight off the stabbing - in fact i say he wanted to be stabbed as he knew he was provoking him by that stinging ''what about you''

tok9

I was thinking of the opening scene of the finale.... and i was wondering if jacob had killed esau...

i thought this because jacob said yes when esau(Mr.X/UnLocke) said "do you know how much i want to kill you"

jashin

locke also wouldnt have known he had to die,if imposter locke didnt tell richard to tell him,when he flashed to the future.

i think if jacob is now dead he will enter lockes body,this 'esau' guy no longer needs to be in lockes form

Jay Ru

thats pretty interesting, i cud see Jacob using lockes body. it aud be a nice ending for Locke if it was to work out that way

purple_hatstand

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Locke was never meant to be the Leader.

The whole Locke becoming leader follows the compass time loop.

Richard tells Locke he's the Leader in present, Lock goes back in time and tells Richard that he is the leader because Richard told him in the future and the Loop continues.

Locke died at the end of his time loop which is when Esua takes over his fake leader position.

In 1977, it was Jack who told Richard not to give up on John. Richard had already discounted him as potential leader material.

In 2007, Un-Locke tells Locke (via Richard) hat he has to die - could this be the loop-hole? Esau's deception of Richard and the means by which he can obtain a trustworthy, respectable vessel (Locke's body)?

uncleoswald

purple_hatstand wrote: »

In 1977, it was Jack who told Richard not to give up on John. Richard had already discounted him as potential leader material.

In 2007, Un-Locke tells Locke (via Richard) hat he has to die - could this be the loop-hole? Esau's deception of Richard and the means by which he can obtain a trustworthy, respectable vessel (Locke's body)?

Sorry but I've asked this before but have got no answer so I'll ask again: Why do people think that the whoever Smokey/Esau/Jacob impersonates have to be dead? Walt wasn't dead when he appeared those couple of times. Is it not simply a case that if you take the form of a dead person it has a little more impact on the person you are trying to influence? Nobody is going to argue with the dead. And its not like Esau is actually using Lockes body is it (unlike Christian Shepard perhaps.)

So while I agree that Richard had to be deceived I think John having to die was part of this deception, so he could appear to have been resurrected. Richard (and Ben) were not going to doubt his "special" status after that.

jashin

uncleoswald wrote: »

Sorry but I've asked this before but have got no answer so I'll ask again: Why do people think that the whoever Smokey/Esau/Jacob impersonates have to be dead? Walt wasn't dead when he appeared those couple of times. Is it not simply a case that if you take the form of a dead person it has a little more impact on the person you are trying to influence? Nobody is going to argue with the dead. And its not like Esau is actually using Lockes body is it (unlike Christian Shepard perhaps.)

So while I agree that Richard had to be deceived I think John having to die was part of this deception, so he could appear to have been resurrected. Richard (and Ben) were not going to doubt his "special" status after that.

thats because walt was special,back in season 2 i remember bea (an other) asking michael has his son ever appeared places where he wasnt,and the others were very reluctant to let him go,hopefully walt is in it next season,and we might find out more about him

PirateShampoo

Think ur all missing the point about my post.

Its nothing to do with Jacob/Esau/Smokey.

Its to do with the fact that Locke was never meant to be the Others leader.

2004 - Locke meets Richard and is told he is there Leader.

1954 - Locke goes back in time, meets Richard and tells him that he is the Leader because Richard told him in the Future.

So during the 50 odd years Richard keeps tabs on John and realises he's a idiot, but jack tells him to keep faith.

What im basically saying is that it was Originaly Johns suggestion to Richard in 54 that he is the leader. It seems like a big miss understanding between the 2. Basicaly its the chicken and the egg situation.

Sad Professor

Depends what you mean by "meant".

"Meant to be", "supposed to be", etc — it's about fate, right? Well what better example of fate than a causal loop? Cause and effect are in a loop - there is no beginning or first origin, nothing can be changed, everything simply is or was meant to be.

Locke travelled back in time and told Richard that he was their leader. This was not coincidence; it was predestination. Locke was meant to go back in time. In which case he was also meant to be the leader.

However the involvement of Jacob and Esau does complicate this some what, as we don't know what powers or awareness either of them have in the causal loop.

uncleoswald

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Richard keeps tabs on John and realises he's a idiot,

ssssshh, people have been shot round these parts for less.

I think this is one of things to be relieved next season. Was everything that convinced John he was special a construct of Esau as part of his plan or is there really more to John Locke. The line "you have no idea what it took for me to be here" suggests the former but then Jacob did visit Locke after his accident.

At the moment I think you are right about the loop not making a whole lot of sense but as the post above indicates the presence of some god like beings complicates things and I'm sure it is not a mistake by the writers.

cos!!

well heres my in put!could be totaly off because i dont remember properly sorry!locke is special no?remember an episode a good while back think it was season 4!richard visits locke in his house when he is a kid, and puts a few items on the table and tells him to pick one (hoping he picks the compass i presume?) but when locke dosnt know what to pick and picks the wrong one richard gets annoyed and walks out?but after hes gone the camera focuses in on what young locke was drawing and it looked like smokey?or something to that effect?:o

Sonic_exyouth

My understanding... is that none of that actually happened because in the past they detonated a big feck-off nuclear bomb.

And unlike previous attempts to change the course of history (Which were like pebbles in a stream) the bomb will succeed (like a bolder in a steam changes it's course). This was the allusion repeated 4 times in the podcasts.

uncleoswald

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

My understanding... is that none of that actually happened because in the past they detonated a big feck-off nuclear bomb.

And unlike previous attempts to change the course of history (Which were like pebbles in a stream) the bomb will succeed (like a bolder in a steam changes it's course). This was the allusion repeated 4 times in the podcasts.

Perhaps that is true (i have never listened to the Podcasts) but why would the exact same thing not have already happened in the past? You mention previous attempts been like pebbles in the stream i.e. too small to change the future, but is it not clear from the show that they didn't change the future because this occurances already happened and in fact contributed to the future?

And, as pointed out here many times, if the bomb succeeds will it just not mean that Flight 815 never crashes on the island and we then have no show?

bob04

uncleoswald wrote: »

Perhaps that is true (i have never listened to the Podcasts) but why would the exact same thing not have already happened in the past? You mention previous attempts been like pebbles in the stream i.e. too small to change the future, but is it not clear from the show that they didn't change the future because this occurances already happened and in fact contributed to the future?

And, as pointed out here many times, if the bomb succeeds will it just not mean that Flight 815 never crashes on the island and we then have no show?

The bomb is the reason the hatch had to be built in order to contain that pocket of energy (the bomb made it every bigger ??)

Or maybe the pocket of energy and the bomb going off caused more time travel and everyone will just be transported back to 2007 ?

Mr.Nice Guy

bob04 wrote: »

Or maybe the pocket of energy and the bomb going off caused more time travel and everyone will just be transported back to 2007 ?

That is what I think will happen. I don't think the past can be changed because "what's done is done" but I think the bomb will be of significance as it will transport Jack and the rest to 2007.

Sonic_exyouth

bob04 wrote: »

The bomb is the reason the hatch had to be built in order to contain that pocket of energy (the bomb made it every bigger ??)

I don't think so. Faraday knew exactly why the Hatch was built, and it was not because of a bomb.

Also, that which happened when the numbers where not entered into the machine is exactly what happened when the drill went too far.

I think it's fair to see that the bomb is new, and was not detonated before.

bob04 wrote: »

Or maybe the pocket of energy and the bomb going off caused more time travel and everyone will just be transported back to 2007 ?

Now.. on the POdcast they said to watch JJ's 'Star Trek' film.

In Star Trek a new, alternate stream of time was created by the time travelling alien destroying Vulcan.
The possibility of an alternate stream of history is now possible in Lost, with Jack et.. having somehow survived a nuclear detonation.. traped in the past trying to get back 'on stream' with the help of the immortals.

Rose and Bernard, for what its worth, I believe are Adam and Eve

Sonic_exyouth

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That is what I think will happen. I don't think the past can be changed because "what's done is done" but I think the bomb will be of significance as it will transport Jack and the rest to 2007.

But.. you're forgetting about the variables

n.catenthusiast

uncleoswald wrote: »

And, as pointed out here many times, if the bomb succeeds will it just not mean that Flight 815 never crashes on the island and we then have no show?

Don't think so cause as far as I know the bomb has already gone off and I still remember seeing the show.