What do you think of Kevin Myers/Immigration?

InFront · 24-05-2009 1:56pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

if they cant detach their beliefs from an imaginary entity that doesn't exist then one can question their right to vote

Can you actually be serious...? Making the rights of freedom of religions and the right to vote mutually exclusive? Things like this give atheism its bad name.

As for Myers, some of what he says is fair, but I can't help but feel he loves the immigration notoriety.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 2:23pm

InFront wrote: »

Can you actually be serious...? Making the rights of freedom of religions and the right to vote mutually exclusive? Things like this give atheism its bad name.

As for Myers, some of what he says is fair, but I can't help but feel he loves the immigration notoriety.

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

wes · 24-05-2009 2:44pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

Denying people the right to vote, regardless of how crazy there beliefs is a road would inevitably lead to some pretty messed up things.

The way I see it anyone who is an adult has a right to vote, no matter how crazy what they believe is.

Also, how do you define what is a crazy belief btw? Who get to decide this? If we were to go down this road. Do we ban communists (or even regular Socialists) from voting as Capitalists think there economic system is crazy and unworkable, or vice versa? Its a slippery slope to ban people from voting imho.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 2:54pm

wes wrote: »

Denying people the right to vote, regardless of how crazy there beliefs is a road would inevitably lead to some pretty messed up things.

The way I see it anyone who is an adult has a right to vote, no matter how crazy what they believe is.

Also, how do you define what is a crazy belief btw? Who get to decide this? If we were to go down this road. Do we ban communists (or even regular Socialists) from voting as Capitalists think there economic system is crazy and unworkable, or vice versa? Its a slippery slope to ban people from voting imho.

so why dont we allow kids to vote for the National Santa Claus Party

if someone places the law of God above the law of the state then why should they have a say in the running of such a state?

most religious people understand the separation between the state and church, and thats quite fine, keep religion in churches and politicians in the parliament

btw all these issues are being played out now in Turkey (the country hated by Kevin), where the state was founded on secular ideas. NOT on religious beliefs as the as church (Islamic one) is trying to make

.

InFront · 24-05-2009 3:02pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

Put it this way

would you allow a 10 year old to vote?

no?

why??

A ten year old does not usually have the awareness of economic, social or European issues that an adult might because he or she is busy being a kid andcan't take these things into account when choosing a Government. Meh, I think you know you're talking rubbish tbh.

Firetrap · 24-05-2009 3:05pm

I don't necessarily agree with everything that he says but there should definitely be a reasoned debate on the issues.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 3:10pm

InFront wrote: »

A ten year old does not usually have the awareness of economic, social or European issues that an adult might because he or she is busy being a kid andcan't take these things into account when choosing a Government. Meh, I think you know you're talking rubbish tbh.

look i realize some people are slightly religious and they can separate their political opinions from the religious ones

but what about the people who cant? those heavily religious people who think:
* kids should we all be allowed to be molested
* our women have to wear duvets head to toe
* got to war because god said so

yes a kid is too busy growing up and learning, but some adults are too busy worshiping a non existent entity represented by a religious cartels

InFront · 24-05-2009 3:16pm

Yes the Government should be allowed to take away your right to vote. Great idea. I' surprised it hasn't been done like in history and stuff?

wes · 24-05-2009 3:22pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

so why dont we allow kids to vote for the National Santa Claus Party

if someone places the law of God above the law of the state then why should they have a say in the running of such a state?

most religious people understand the separation between the state and church, and thats quite fine, keep religion in churches and politicians in the parliament

btw all these issues are being played out now in Turkey (the country hated by Kevin), where the state was founded on secular ideas. NOT on religious beliefs as the as church (Islamic one) is trying to make

.

Why are you just going after ultra-religious people? Sure, would not a crazy ultra nationalists be just as bad a any crazy religious nut. Both groups have caused a lot of trouble for people. The same goes for communists.

Also, who gets to decide who craziness is so crazy they have to be stripped of the right to vote? Its a huge slippery slope.

Also, I think you know the difference between a child and adult

and how there very different from the above groups.

Basically, taking away people rights to vote is nuts, so should we ban those guys too

? Basically we would end up in a crazy situation were everybody would be trying to take away everyone else voting rights and to be honest, you idea reminds me of Starship Troopers.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 3:22pm

InFront wrote: »

Yes the Government should be allowed to take away your right to vote. Great idea. I' surprised it hasn't been done like in history and stuff?

why the governemnt?

why not have a Driving License type of institution?

get your voting card if you can:
* show commitment to the state (above other concerns)
* know the differences between left and right in politics
* show basic knowledge of how the political system works at local/national/eu levels
* tell difference between representative and direct democracy

driving licenses are issued as not knowing the rules of the road and how to drive can kill people

well electing the wrong people can kill even more people (Nazi Germany), start wars (USA in Iraq) and force misery on nation (N. Korea), or bankrupt a country (Ireland)

so here we have a Political Driving/Voting License test

wes wrote: »

, you idea reminds me of Starship Troopers.

do we get giant space faring bugs

wes wrote: »

Why are you just going after ultra-religious people? Sure, would not a crazy ultra nationalists be just as bad a any crazy religious nut. Both groups have caused a lot of trouble for people. The same goes for communists.

Also, who gets to decide who craziness is so crazy they have to be stripped of the right to vote? Its a huge slippery slope.

yes I agree it is a slippery slope, and no im not singling out religious people (just the extreme nuts), but i think history has shown as to what can happen if extremists like Church in Middle Ages, Nazis or Communists last century, come to power

.

P. Breathnach · 24-05-2009 3:39pm

Firetrap wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree with everything that he says but there should definitely be a reasoned debate on the issues.

You mean something like the discussion here?

MikeC101 · 24-05-2009 4:06pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

well electing the wrong people can kill even more people (Nazi Germany), start wars (USA in Iraq) and force misery on nation (N. Korea), or bankrupt a country (Ireland)
.

Don't think there were ever elections in North Korea in fairness - there's an example of what can happen when the state takes away citizens right to vote.

InFront · 24-05-2009 4:19pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

yes I agree it is a slippery slope, and no im not singling out religious people (just the extreme nuts), but i think history has shown as to what can happen if extremists like Church in Middle Ages, Nazis or Communists last century, come to power

The set up state institutions to take away civil liberties and the right to vote?

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 4:42pm

MikeC101 wrote: »

Don't think there were ever elections in North Korea in fairness - there's an example of what can happen when the state takes away citizens right to vote.

true point my bad, cant find many examples of communists being voted in voluntarily, but nazis where voted in

InFront wrote: »

The set up state institutions to take away civil liberties and the right to vote?

an institution to administer exams to citizens to make sure they are aware of how politics works, which is meant to be the job of CSPE course in schools? before granting them a right to vote. not to take away rights but to ensure that people have understanding of the system and what can go wrong

in a similar manner as driver license tests ensure citizens can drive vehicles safely at high speed without killing others

for example last years referendum was filled with lies that would be obvious to anyone with a slight knowledge of politics

.

The Raven. · 24-05-2009 5:42pm

Back on topic:

I have great admiration for Kevin Myers. He is a great supporter of freedom of speech, and refuses to be bullied by ignorant accusations of racism.

His main argument in this interview is centred on the fact that, as the immigration policies in Ireland are somewhat incoherent in terms of future planning, this situation requires open debate and analysis. I find nothing wrong with that aspiration.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 5:45pm

The Raven. wrote: »

Back on topic:

I have great admiration for Kevin Myers. He is a great supporter of freedom of speech, and refuses to be bullied by ignorant accusations of racism.

His main argument in this interview is centred on the fact that, as the immigration policies in Ireland are somewhat incoherent in terms of future planning, this situation requires open debate and analysis. I find nothing wrong with that aspiration.

is mr Kevin Myers even Irish?

The Raven. · 24-05-2009 5:49pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

is mr Kevin Myers even Irish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 5:58pm

The Raven. wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Myers

so he wasnt born nor grew up here... and his parents were immigrants ....

funny how someone with his background like that would have such views on immigration :rolleyes:

im sorry but this guy is a nut case, reading the controversies he caused are particularly insightful

.

The Raven. · 24-05-2009 6:21pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

so he wasnt born nor grew up here... and his parents were immigrants ....

'Myers was born to an Irish emigrant family in Leicester.' He has been living in Ireland since the sixties at least: over 40 years. Have you been here that long

?

funny how someone with his background like that would have such views on immigration :rolleyes:

What 'background'? What views on immigration? Can you be more specific?

im sorry but this guy is a nut case, reading the controversies he caused are particularly insightful

.

You are entitled to your views and freedom of speech, just as he is. My view is that he is certainly not a 'nut case'. He is highly intelligent and well educated.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 6:23pm

The Raven. wrote: »

'Myers was born to an Irish emigrant family in Leicester.' He has been living in Ireland since the sixties at least: over 40 years. Have you been here that long ?

What 'background'?

You are entitled to your views and freedom of speech, just as he is. My view is that he is certainly not a 'nut case'. He is highly intelligent and well educated.

oh so its ok for us to emigrate out of this country but not for others to immigrate here, no matter how bright they are

what if the British weren't so tolerant of the Irish immigrants back then (or listened to the likes of himself), where would he be now?

him discussing immigration is hippocrisy

.

The Raven. · 24-05-2009 6:31pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

oh so its ok for us to emigrate out of this country but not for others to immigrate here, no matter how bright they are

Have you even listened to what he said on the interview with Pat Kenny? What you are saying is totally inaccurate, and twisting things completely :rolleyes:!!

what of the British weren't so tolerant of the Irish immigrants back then (or listened to the likes of himself), where would he be now?

him discussing immigration is hippocrisy

This is nonsense!

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 6:33pm

The Raven. wrote: »

Have you even listened to what he said on the interview with Pat Kenny? What you are saying is totally inaccurate, and twisting things completely :rolleyes:!!

This is nonsense!

how is it?

if the British ~50 years ago didn't allow his Irish parents in, where would this guy be now?

The Raven. · 24-05-2009 6:40pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

how is it?

if the British ~50 years ago didn't allow his Irish parents in, where would this guy be now?

He'd be here in his home in Ireland: an Irishman, who loves his country

!!

Nodin · 24-05-2009 6:42pm

The Raven. wrote: »

He'd be here in his home in Ireland: an Irishman, who loves his country !!

Well....the former.

ionix5891 · 24-05-2009 6:48pm

The Raven. wrote: »

He'd be here in his home in Ireland: an Irishman, who loves his country !!

yah who knows, we had molesting priests

back then running the show

P. Breathnach · 24-05-2009 8:43pm

The Raven. wrote: »

He'd be here in his home in Ireland: an Irishman, who loves his country !!

I don't think Kevin Myers loves anybody or anything. His purpose in life seems to be rage and fulmination.

rant_and_rave · 24-05-2009 10:39pm

Affable wrote: »

I saw this guy on youtube..RTE. It's interesting, in Britian I don't think it gets openly discussed.

Anyone, just wondered what you thought of him and his views.

Should Kevin Myers emigrate. Yes!

wes · 24-05-2009 11:12pm

ionix5891 wrote: »

why the governemnt?

why not have a Driving License type of institution?

get your voting card if you can:
* show commitment to the state (above other concerns)
* know the differences between left and right in politics
* show basic knowledge of how the political system works at local/national/eu levels
* tell difference between representative and direct democracy

driving licenses are issued as not knowing the rules of the road and how to drive can kill people

well electing the wrong people can kill even more people (Nazi Germany), start wars (USA in Iraq) and force misery on nation (N. Korea), or bankrupt a country (Ireland)

so here we have a Political Driving/Voting License test

do we get giant space faring bugs

Well, a test for who can vote you suggest above is similar to Starship Troopers, except in there case the test was military service. The idea is imho very similar and I think it a bad idea overall.

I get your point, but I think your cure is just as bad as the disease.

Also, sadly no giant bugs, maybe someone will finally come up with some FTL or warp drives and we will find some.

ionix5891 wrote: »

yes I agree it is a slippery slope, and no im not singling out religious people (just the extreme nuts), but i think history has shown as to what can happen if extremists like Church in Middle Ages, Nazis or Communists last century, come to power.

Well, in the case of the Communists and the Church they weren't democratically elected in a lot of cases, they came to power using other means. Now the Nazi's did come to power via the ballot box, but there rather the exception than the rule.

Democracy is by no mean perfect, but its the best system we have. There needs to be a check on power in a democracy, I agree with that. However your method is not the way imho and rather hard to implement. Even if I agreed with what you said, it would be far to difficult to actually implement.

I think this check needs to be at the governmental/party political level, as opposed on the voters.

2-D Man · 25-05-2009 12:50am

An English immigrant (and columnist) lecturing Irish people on immigration......

Well if he's an example of the influx we can expect we should close the borders now

ionix5891 · 25-05-2009 12:53am

wes wrote: »

I think this check needs to be at the governmental/party political level, as opposed on the voters.

fair enough you are right it would be hard for the public sector to get anything right

on time or budget, was just an interesting idea i taught up of since the lack of interest in politics has got this country into a wee mess

anyways not to detract from the subject at hand of Mr Myers

2-D Man wrote:

An English immigrant lecturing Irish people on immigration......

hes not the only one... Mr Ganley from Libertas springs to mind in recent weeks ...

What do you think of Kevin Myers/Immigration?

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