It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

ionix5891

halkar wrote: »

Will we ever see the day Cowen working for 1 Euro. :rolleyes:

ahahahahahahahahaaaa

sigh

Mr. Presentable

OP, the civil service is only part of the PS. So I humbly request to take the blatant trolling lies out of your post title and replace them with the truth.

ionix5891

nipplenuts wrote: »

OP, the civil service is only part of the PS. So I humbly request to take the blatant trolling lies out of your post title and replace them with the truth.

did you even see the link and particularly the title in the national newspaper?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-civil-servants-have-best-deal-in-eu-study-shows-1749381.html

P. Breathnach

nipplenuts wrote: »

OP, the civil service is only part of the PS. So I humbly request to take the blatant trolling lies out of your post title and replace them with the truth.

To be fair (something that appears to be exceptional behaviour in any discussion here relating to the public service) the inaccuracy -- blatant trolling lies, if you prefer that terminolgy -- started in the Independent.

One or two people here seem to think it is not an issue.

The_Conductor

ionix5891 wrote: »

did you even see the link and particularly the title in the national newspaper?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-civil-servants-have-best-deal-in-eu-study-shows-1749381.html

Just because the Indo are trolling- doesn't make it accurate or fair to perpetuate their baiting......

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

To be fair (something that appears to be exceptional behaviour in any discussion here relating to the public service) the inaccuracy -- blatant trolling lies, if you prefer that terminolgy -- started in the Independent.

One or two people here seem to think it is not an issue.

Look the independent obviously is looking for a grabbing headline which is more tabloid worthy

but they are onto something

and thats the fact that the sector of the economy that is not directly involved in the wealth producing activity in this country are getting paid more than comparable sectors in other countries, at a time when this country is gone down the gutter

smccarrick wrote: »

Just because the Indo are trolling- doesn't make it accurate or fair to perpetuate their baiting......

funny how the public sector employees posting here rather nitpick on the title than address the issue at hand

if this wasn't true it wouldn't be hard to disprove it right?

.

The_Conductor

P. Breathnach wrote: »

To be fair (something that appears to be exceptional behaviour in any discussion here relating to the public service) the inaccuracy -- blatant trolling lies, if you prefer that terminolgy -- started in the Independent.

One or two people here seem to think it is not an issue.

Sigh- I knew it was a bad idea refreshing my 'ignore' list......

The_Conductor

ionix5891 wrote: »

Look the independent obviously is looking for a grabbing headline which is more tabloid worthy

but they are onto something

and thats the fact that the sector of the economy that is not directly involved in the wealth producing activity in this country are getting paid more than everywhere else at a time when this country is gone down the gutter




funny how the public sector employees posting here rather nitpick on the title than address the issue at hand

if this wasn't true it wouldn't be hard to disprove it right?

.

The opening sentence of the article is

Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.

It would be equally as accurate to modify it to:

Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in any European Union country, including Ireland, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.

Of course- this does not suit the agenda that the Indo have......

The_Conductor

ionix5891 wrote: »

funny how the public sector employees posting here rather nitpick on the title than address the issue at hand

if this wasn't true it wouldn't be hard to disprove it right?

Its a misrepresentation of the facts- plain and simple.
With respect of public sector employees and pensioners posting in this thread- those who have identified themselves as such- are in agreement that there should be a cut in gross pay (in effect a reverse benchmarking) to be focused on a reflection of pension rights and job security and based on a similar exercise to the original scheme- whereby each grade would be accessed seperately.

The reason I'm not going into a hell of a lot of detail- is because I have done so several times previously in this forum and elsewhere- with the selfsame proponents arguing against me. Just google my posts in here. I don't see any point in repeating myself needlessly- as obviously it doesn't matter how much effort and time I put into my research- Jimmmy (and others) will never acknowledge that I might have a point. If valid information is researched and posted- it just gets ignored. Some people do not want to acknowledge that their concrete viewpoints, may in fact not have a basis in fact. I'm tired of it all.

Hasschu

Buying votes is a game that is as old as the Irish hills. The fact that they are overstaffed and over managed is related to their being overpaid. Once a government gets a sense of entitlement as great as the one our elected representatives have then they are compelled to keep the gravy train running. If the Taoiseach is worth $400,000 plus frills then every minor functionary in the CS is worth over $100,000 of course the "professionals" teachers, nurses et al are worth a lot more in their own minds. Until the ECB or IMF takes over the reckless spending will continue.

The_Conductor

Hasschu wrote: »

Buying votes is a game that is as old as the Irish hills. The fact that they are overstaffed and over managed is related to their being overpaid. Once a government gets a sense of entitlement as great as the one our elected representatives have then they are compelled to keep the gravy train running. If the Taoiseach is worth $400,000 plus frills then every minor functionary in the CS is worth over $100,000 of course the "professionals" teachers, nurses et al are worth a lot more in their own minds. Until the ECB or IMF takes over the reckless spending will continue.

Why are people insisting on delibertly mispresenting the public sector as the civil service. The civil service is a very small subsection of the Irish public sector- at present less than 8% of the public sector- and getting smaller by the day. It is the smallest civil service per head of population in the OECD. I have rephrased this in 3 differnent ways on this thread thus far- but people seem to prefer the snappy headline from the Irish Indo.

Certainly there are overpaid people in the civil service- however the most highly ranking officers in the civil service get paid less than 1/5 as much as do government appointees in the public sector (the Irish civil service is considered to be free from political interferance- though it took the misbehaviour of the 1980s to establish the the Civil Service Commission etc.)

Personally I would welcome the IMF into the country. The politicians do not have the guts to take the decisions that need to be made. Have not doubts though- yes the public sector at large would be gutted- but so too would our welfare state, our capital expenditure programmes and every single area of government expenditure. The recent government sponsored IMF report- did focus on the public sector (not the civil service), however, and very unusually- it contained a rebuttal of many of the myths perpetuated in the media- particularly about the civil service- and it also strayed into territory such as our welfare state. Needless to say- the report has *not* been published.

capsubsidy.com

smccarrick wrote: »

Why are people insisting on delibertly mispresenting the public sector as the civil service. The civil service is a very small subsection of the Irish public sector- at present less than 8% of the public sector- and getting smaller by the day. It is the smallest civil service per head of population in the OECD. I have rephrased this in 3 differnent ways on this thread thus far- but people seem to prefer the snappy headline from the Irish Indo.

Reading the CS wikipedia page it seems the categorization of CS seems very arbitary between countries.

In any case, can we move away from the CS/PS discussion? Its going nowhere.

The real discussion should be what the tax payers are paying for and if they are getting good value for money for it.

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

Reading the CS wikipedia page it seems the categorization of CS seems very arbitary between countries.

In any case, can we move away from the CS/PS discussion? Its going nowhere.

The real discussion should be what the tax payers are paying for and if they are getting good value for money for it.

Read the thread title, and check the link in the original post. Both refer to the Civil Service. If you want a discussion of public service pay and productivity (yet another one), than have it. But it's not fair to pillory the Civil Service for any perceived inefficiencies in the HSE, or schools, or policing, or a range of other public service activities.

I would give more weight to the opinions of critics who seemed to have regard for truth and accuracy, and who adduced evidence rather than rhetoric in support of their arguments.

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I would give more weight to the opinions of critics who seemed to have regard for truth and accuracy, and who adduced evidence rather than rhetoric in support of their arguments.

That's fair enough.

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

perceived inefficiencies in the HSE

Perceived? Are you kidding me?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

perceived inefficiencies in the HSE

:D:D always good for a laugh

If the economic situation was not so serious in this little country, I would laugh instead of just grin at all these serving and retired public servants trying to justify what is arguably the most overpaid public service in the world.

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

Perceived? Are you kidding me?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perceived Definition 1b comes closest to the sense in which I was using the word. That does not mean that I deny the possibility that there are inefficiencies in the HSE.

It is perceived inefficiency unless and until some evidence is adduced.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

:D:D always good for a laugh

If the economic situation was not so serious in this little country, I would laugh instead of just grin at all these serving and retired public servants trying to justify what is arguably the most overpaid public service in the world.

I perceive that you are riding on somebody else's coat-tails again, jimmmy.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I perceive that you are riding on somebody else's coat-tails again, jimmmy.

lol lol If agreeing with another poster at an incredible statement from you is " riding on somebody else's coat-tails ", I do not mind at all.



please answer the question below, which you have still not answered :


Quote:
Originally Posted by ionix5891
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionix5891
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

When did you stop beating your wife?

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

When did you stop beating your wife?

You seem to have a fixation with "wifebeating". Indeed it is a subject you have mentioned before , and nobody else has ever even hinted at the subject, or responded to you about same. I never mentioned if I had a wife, husband or partner, and as far as I know nobody else did either. I suggest its a little bit distasteful.

oscarBravo

jimmmy wrote: »

please answer the question below, which you have still not answered

When you have a track record of engaging earnestly and genuinely in discussions, including answering every question that's asked of you and taking on board points that are made in rebuttal of yours, you can start badgering people to answer your questions. Until then, don't. Consider this a warning.

jimmmy

I have taken on board other peoples points, and I consider them very valuable. Please can you tell me what question I did not answer , and I will try to answer it. Thanks for the warning; I will not "badger" P.Breathnach to answer that question again.

oscarBravo

jimmmy wrote: »

I have taken on board other peoples points, and I consider them very valuable.

Excellent - we can assume that you won't be mixing up the civil and public services again, then.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionix5891
does the taxpayer not have the right to point out bloat and/or demand better value for money?

Jimmmy, of course the taxpayer has the right to demand value for money for the services they pay for......but that does not mean that simply cutting pay or firing a load of public sector workers will result in value for money...I think the history around An Bord Snip in the 1980s would show that

such moves are liekly to result in a reduction in services rather than any improvement in value for money

what's required in the public sector above all is reform of its structures and systems...the most obvious being the bizarre restructuring of the health Boards into the HSE without a single redundancy at management level. Given the numbers and money going into it needs to be tackled seriously.

Further, real change is required across the Public Sector with regard to the management of poor performing staff, up to and including being fired. More power needs to be in the hands of managers (as well as support from HR etc) to deal with such problems.

PMDS needs to be refined and properly implemented

There are a number of issues with the payments, expenses etc to politicians which needs to be reformed.

with regard to pay levels we have previously agreed that the level of increases was mainly down to actions of politicans, notably Bertie Ahern. His "throw money at everyone to keep them happy" approach has harmed Ireland as the current situation shows.

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It is perceived inefficiency unless and until some evidence is adduced.

There is plenty evidence available, that you are not aware of any, can only be described as willful ignorance.

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

There is plenty evidence available, that you are not aware of any, can only be described as willful ignorance.

In a debate, the onus is on any person making a claim to provide the backup evidence.

Those who consistently attack the public service on this forum adduce very little evidence in support of their positions.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Those who consistently attack the public service on this forum adduce very little evidence in support of their positions.

Time and time again different surveys and reports have been produced to show how overpaid it is, for example.....probably the highest paid in the world. Yet you do not take on board any of this evidence and think pay needs to be cut substantially, considering Irelands economic situation ?

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Time and time again different surveys and reports have been produced to show how overpaid it is, for example.....probably the highest paid in the world.

Time and again the same few things are posted or linked, some of which are badly-written newspaper pieces.

Yet you do not take on board any of this evidence and think pay needs to be cut substantially, considering Irelands economic situation ?

Clearly you don't read what I say. Several times you have attempted to represent my position, and done it incorrectly.

ionix5891

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In a debate, the onus is on any person making a claim to provide the backup evidence.

Those who consistently attack the public service on this forum adduce very little evidence in support of their positions.

little evidence??!!

how about this thread at the top of the politics forum?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055189047

UK 2-3 months to process a naturalization application
Ireland 3+ years

why??? even the EU and other TD's keep asking this question of the Justice minister about bloat in his dept and questioning the length of time being taken

and thats only 1 section of 20-30 people within the DOJ & FA...