It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

Riskymove

ionix5891 wrote: »

little evidence??!!

how about this thread at the top of the politics forum?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055189047

UK 2-3 months to process a naturalization application
Ireland 3+ years

why??? even the EU and other TD's keep asking this question of the Justice minister about bloat in his dept and questioning the length of time being taken

and thats only 1 section of 20-30 people within the DOJ & FA...

just out of interest is there evidence that the cause of the problem is incompetent or inefficient staff?

could there be other reasons for this state of affairs?

ionix5891

Riskymove wrote: »

just out of interest is there evidence that the cause of the problem is incompetent or inefficient staff?

could there be other reasons for this state of affairs?

the same question gets asked of the minister often, but he just changes the subject

how would you explain similar processes being an order of magnitude faster in other EU countries? apparantely the process involves checking all documentation is in place and requesting a report from gardai hq and social welfare report to ensure the person is of good character and has not milked the state

the gardai report takes up to 6 months, last i checked gardai weren't in the private sector, so if they try to shift the blame then it falls onto another public sector body...

P. Breathnach

ionix5891 wrote: »

little evidence??!!

how about this thread at the top of the politics forum?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055189047
...

That's not clear evidence of anything much: possibly political decisions to go a certain way; possibly an understaffed section; possibly cumbersome procedures; possibly bloody-minded individuals; possibly legal complications...

Yes, it looks bad on the surface, but it is not clear why.

People have jumped on me for mentioning "perceived inefficiencies in the HSE". If I want to write of inefficiencies in the HSE without the "perceived" qualification, I would see it as incumbent on me to cite evidence. It's a simple as that. I didn't have evidence conveniently to hand, and it wasn't germane to what I was saying to develop that point, as it was little more than an aside.

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In a debate, the onus is on any person making a claim to provide the backup evidence.

OECD Economic Survey Ireland 2008

very obscure and probably too badly written for you though.

Riskymove

ionix5891 wrote: »

the gardai report takes up to 6 months, last i checked gardai weren't in the private sector, so if they try to shift the blame then it falls onto another public sector body...

I thought it may be something like that

again i think it comes down to structures and reform, if the gardai spent more time on paperwork like this, the process would likely be speeded up but then the headlines would be about gardai time wasted when they should be on the street etc

things liek this would be helped out by civilianisation of many garda roles

Riskymove

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

OECD Economic Survey Ireland 2008

very obscure and probably too badly written for you though.

Funnily enough if that OECD report is along usual lines it will state that we should be looking for more efficiency (i.e. getting more from what we are putting in) in the public sector and will not be pushing for reduction in funding levels

The OECD Review of the Public Sector in ireland published last year may also be of interest if you are convinvced by OECD publications. It states that Ireland gets great value form money form the Civil Service which performs relatively well and is comparitively small in numbers!!

Riskymove

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that this report was carried out by a Public Servant?;)

given the logic on this thread he must be overpaid, under productive and incompetent!! Therefore the report cannot be trusted!!:pac:

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

OECD Economic Survey Ireland 2008

In support of what claim are you citing this?

very obscure and probably too badly written for you though.

It's written in temperate language, something of which I approve. It has also been overtaken by events, and is out of date already.

Do you have a problem with my writing style?

capsubsidy.com

Riskymove wrote: »

The OECD Review of the Public Sector in ireland published last year may also be of interest if you are convinvced by OECD publications. It states that Ireland gets great value form money form the Civil Service which performs relatively well and is comparitively small in numbers!!

I take it you haven't read it then.

http://www.bettergov.ie/index.asp?locID=220&docID=-1

What it said was the we had a relatively low PS spend relative to our GDP in 2005. 34.4% average of GDP in the middle of our boom. With our current government spend and current GDP that figure is now 44.5%, which is 2% higher than OECD average!

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In support of what claim are you citing this?

This is one of the reports of which you are/were willfully ignorant.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It has also been overtaken by events, and is out of date already.

The HSE has become efficient since 2008? Do you have anything to support that claim?

ionix5891

Riskymove wrote: »

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that this report was carried out by a Public Servant?;)

If it was carried out by any private sector body there be cries of bias...

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Time and again the same few things are posted or linked, some of which are badly-written newspaper pieces.

Earlier you asked "What's Foley's research and publication record like? I hadn't noticed anything by him" and someone replied " Tony Foley is a senior lecturer and is head of the economics finance and entrepreneurship group in dcubs. He was formerly the Director of the Local Government MBA programme and executive MBA inDCU Business School. He is also formerly executive dean and head of executive education. He lectures on the topics of international trade . industrial development and Irish economic analysis. He received his primary degree in economics and politics from UCD and also received a masters in economics (first class honours) from UCD. Tony has extensive professional involvement with the Irish and international public and private sectors. Prior to joining DCU, he worked in the Department of Finance, the National Economic and Social Council (NESC), Dublin Corporation, the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) and the IDA. He has also undertaken a wide range of advisory and consultancy projects for the public sector, including the following: Review of Regional Airports for the Department of Transport; Advisor to Eastern Regional Health Authority on Mental Health Plan (2001); Policy Advisor on indigenous industry to Forfás (1999-2000) and Review of healthcare funding for the North Western Health Board (1995)

Biographical Details "

Is that not good enough for you ? Countless reports and articles have been done on the public service and you doubt them all ?

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

This is one of the reports of which you are/were willfully ignorant.

The HSE has become efficient since 2008? Do you have anything to support that claim?

Are we looking at the same thing? The link you gave does not deal with the HSE. I commented on Economic survey of Ireland 2008

I don't understand what game you are trying to play.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Earlier you asked "What's Foley's research and publication record like? I hadn't noticed anything by him" and someone replied " Tony Foley is a senior lecturer and is head of the economics finance and entrepreneurship group in dcubs. He was formerly the Director of the Local Government MBA programme and executive MBA inDCU Business School. He is also formerly executive dean and head of executive education. He lectures on the topics of international trade . industrial development and Irish economic analysis. He received his primary degree in economics and politics from UCD and also received a masters in economics (first class honours) from UCD. Tony has extensive professional involvement with the Irish and international public and private sectors. Prior to joining DCU, he worked in the Department of Finance, the National Economic and Social Council (NESC), Dublin Corporation, the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) and the IDA. He has also undertaken a wide range of advisory and consultancy projects for the public sector, including the following: Review of Regional Airports for the Department of Transport; Advisor to Eastern Regional Health Authority on Mental Health Plan (2001); Policy Advisor on indigenous industry to Forfás (1999-2000) and Review of healthcare funding for the North Western Health Board (1995)

Biographical Details "

Is that not good enough for you ? Countless reports and articles have been done on the public service and you doubt them all ?

What's that got to do with it? His research was not linked here. Just some bad journalism referring to it (I'm supposing it was bad journalism, because I don't think an academic deserving of any respect would conflate Civil Service and Public Service.)

Have you read Foley's paper? Have you a link to it? Do you read anything other than populist journalism?

capsubsidy.com

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Are we looking at the same thing? The link you gave does not deal with the HSE. I commented on Economic survey of Ireland 2008.

I does deal with it but you have to pay for the report. Pages 69-72 (if I remember correctly)

This discussion is going nowhere. I'm outta here.

P. Breathnach

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

This discussion is going nowhere. I'm outta here.

Byee!

Hasschu

In response to Mccarrick and Capsubsidy. I have worked for 4 gov'ts as an employee directly and indirectly with half a dozen more as a contract employee. I know the fine distinctions all too well. In the country I am in now the public uses the phrase "on the public purse" as a catchall for people paid directly or indirectly by the gov't (taxpayers). For example primary and secondary schools are funded half and half by municipalities and higher levels of gov't. The higher levels of gov't set the pay scales and the municipalities have school boards that manage the day to day affairs of the schools. Universities are subsidised by the higher levels of gov't (25% to 40%). The teachers at primary and secondary schools are "on the public purse" while the university employees are not. Ireland is awash in "Quangos" a Margaret Thatcher concoction to give the illusion that gov't is smaller than it is. There is no getting away from nepotism and cronyism and Ireland has perfected the ways in which politicians can claim to be at arms length from wrong doing. It is technically correct to say that only employees in a chain of command that reports directly to a cabinet minister or a prime minister is a civil servant. The public at large looks at where the money goes and if it goes to an overpaid dysfunctional quango everybody gets tarred with the same brush. Quango means quasi (demi, semi) non governmental organization.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Do you read anything other than populist journalism?

I do indeed. Here is the journalism from Ireland most successful broadsheet newspaper :

"Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.
Public-sector workers earn an average of €50,000 a year -- 32 per cent more than private-sector workers, who are on an average wage of €38,000.
That was before the last round of public pay increases.
As the private sector is decimated by rising unemployment and wage cuts, the study, by Dublin economist Anthony Foley, paints a dramatic picture of runaway expenditure that is soaking up huge amounts of tax and crippling the Irish economy.
"The recent and sudden reduction in tax revenues suggests that the affordability of the public sector is a critical and urgent issue," says Mr Foley.
He adds that public-sector efficiency is another critical matter for Government.
As nurses and teachers protest about pay and conditions, it has emerged that the Departments of Health and Education are at the heart of the country's growing financial crisis.
Between 1998 and 2007 the pay bill for the Department of Health has increased by 193 per cent to (€2.4bn to €7.2 bn) and the Department of Education by 155 per cent (€2.2bn to €5.6bn).
More frightening is that the vast majority of increases in staff numbers in the Department of Health was made up of administrative/management employees and not frontline nurses and doctors.
Mr Foley is a senior lecturer in economics at Dublin City University Business School.
He says: "There is evidence to suggest that public servants in Ireland are higher paid than elsewhere" -- and he includes the EU and the OECD countries in his calculations.
"Public-sector employment growth has greatly exceeded the growth in population," he adds.
His assessment is contained in the current issue of Administration. "

Some people have insisted on giving money back eg many if not all of the RTE presenters such as Ryan, Kenny, etc etc. When will most of the higest paid public servants start giving some of their pay + pensions back ? For example, the head of our central bank for our little country ( which is in the euro after all ) is paid more than any other central banker in the world. When will he hand back some of his salary ? Until people like him do, lesser paid people would resist from doing so too. The only solution is benchmarking, with pay reductions where appropriate sooner rather than later.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

I do indeed. Here is the journalism from Ireland most successful broadsheet newspaper :

"Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.
Public-sector workers earn an average of €50,000 a year -- 32 per cent more than private-sector workers, who are on an average wage of €38,000.
That was before the last round of public pay increases.
As the private sector is decimated by rising unemployment and wage cuts, the study, by Dublin economist Anthony Foley, paints a dramatic picture of runaway expenditure that is soaking up huge amounts of tax and crippling the Irish economy.
"The recent and sudden reduction in tax revenues suggests that the affordability of the public sector is a critical and urgent issue," says Mr Foley.
He adds that public-sector efficiency is another critical matter for Government.
As nurses and teachers protest about pay and conditions, it has emerged that the Departments of Health and Education are at the heart of the country's growing financial crisis.
Between 1998 and 2007 the pay bill for the Department of Health has increased by 193 per cent to (€2.4bn to €7.2 bn) and the Department of Education by 155 per cent (€2.2bn to €5.6bn).
More frightening is that the vast majority of increases in staff numbers in the Department of Health was made up of administrative/management employees and not frontline nurses and doctors.
Mr Foley is a senior lecturer in economics at Dublin City University Business School.
He says: "There is evidence to suggest that public servants in Ireland are higher paid than elsewhere" -- and he includes the EU and the OECD countries in his calculations.
"Public-sector employment growth has greatly exceeded the growth in population," he adds.
His assessment is contained in the current issue of Administration. "

Jimmmy, have you read Tony Foley's report?

I like in particular the Indo's claim that public sector workers are less productive than other EU Countries when Tony's paper, on a number of occassions, highlights the fact that output cannot be properly measured and therefore we cannot really measure efficiency. That is the "critical problem for Government"


It is very clear that most of the increase in numbers and pay are in the Health and Education sectors and thats where work needs to be done

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

Jimmmy, have you read Tony Foley's report?

Yes. And looking at the standards in our hospitals, schools, transportation infrastructure, civil service and other parts of the wider public service it is quite clear to anyone who lives in this country that the taxpayer is not getting value for money. To give you an example ; other teachers in Europe work longer hours and have less holidays....and are paid much less...I was talking to one of our teachers recently + their school teaching is over for this acemedic year ( it seems they are not back long since their Easter holidays - when I know one of her colleagues went to S. Africa for the holidays ! )....they just take it in turns now to go in + supervise school exams. 3 more months of holidays beckons for them now.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Some people have insisted on giving money back eg many if not all of the RTE presenters such as Ryan, Kenny, etc etc. When will most of the higest paid public servants start giving some of their pay + pensions back ? For example, the head of our central bank for our little country ( which is in the euro after all ) is paid more than any other central banker in the world. When will he hand back some of his salary ? Until people like him do, lesser paid people would resist from doing so too. The only solution is benchmarking, with pay reductions where appropriate sooner rather than later.

Sorry jimmy but that is a poor representation of what happened...RTE sought a 10% pay cut from certain people....some of whom accepted and some of whom fought hard against it...notably one of those you mention

on the other hand Ministers and Secretary-Generals of Departments volunteered a 10% paycut in last year's budget...why not give them credit?

one thing is for sure...if I was earning what Pat Kenny or Gerry Ryan was i wouldn't have much issue with a 10% pay drop.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes [to having read Tony Foley's report].

Then why not link that rather than "Ireland most successful broadsheet newspaper"?

And looking at the standards in our hospitals, schools, transportation infrastructure, civil service and other parts of the wider public service it is quite clear to anyone who lives in this country that the taxpayer is not getting value for money. To give you an example ; other teachers in Europe work longer hours and have less holidays....and are paid much less...I was talking to one of our teachers recently + their school teaching is over for this acemedic year ( it seems they are not back long since their Easter holidays - when I know one of her colleagues went to S. Africa for the holidays ! )....they just take it in turns now to go in + supervise school exams. 3 more months of holidays beckons for them now.

So why not link to evidence rather than resort to generalisations and anecdote?

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Yes. And looking at the standards in our hospitals, schools, transportation infrastructure, civil service and other parts of the wider public service it is quite clear to anyone who lives in this country that the taxpayer is not getting value for money. To give you an example ; other teachers in Europe work longer hours and have less holidays....and are paid much less...I was talking to one of our teachers recently + their school teaching is over for this acemedic year ( it seems they are not back long since their Easter holidays - when I know one of her colleagues went to S. Africa for the holidays ! )....they just take it in turns now to go in + supervise school exams. 3 more months of holidays beckons for them now.

jimmy, I agree with your points about standards in hospitals, schools and infrasctructure etc and thats why whats needed is serious action for reform and in particular dealing with the vested interests in some of those sections who have too much power

but I dont see how simply cutting the pay bill is going to change those things...I think we should be looking past the short-term and embark on more lasting changes to the systems and structures in play.

ionix5891

Riskymove wrote: »

but I dont see how simply cutting the pay bill is going to change those things...I think we should be looking past the short-term and embark on more lasting changes to the systems and structures in play.

i don't see how continuing to borrow dozens of billions of money from abroad to pay the public sector and the dole

can be sustainable or is wise

once again we have people focusing on short term profit over long term gain

all that money will have to be paid back at one stage and i don't know how if we keep digging a hole for ourselves


edit: interesting figures and charts here
http://cib.natixis.com/flushdoc.aspx?id=46740

Riskymove

ionix5891 wrote: »

i don't see how continuing to borrow dozens of billions of money from abroad to pay the public sector and the dole

can be sustainable or is wise

once again we have people focusing on short term profit over long term gain

all that money will have to be paid back at one stage and i don't know how if we keep digging a hole for ourselves

But the old tactic of public sector cuts now and then increases when things pick up is the usual manner of action which does not work as our history shows.

inevitably what happens is that cuts affect the services most needed

If we want a sustainable, affordable, efficient, public service going forward then real reform is whats required

achieve a reduction through getting rid of whats not needed, re-consolidating quangos, reducing layers of management in health and education, reduce pay/let go people who under-perform or indeed don't perform at all...etc

Narsil

I'm a Government employee and after 3 1/2 years service my gross pay is €27000. With all the taxes i'm down to about €25000 with a mortgage to pay and bills. We are not all well paid as people think, it's the higher up people who are so i can't stand it when people tar us all with the same brush. Also i worked in one of the most pressurised sections and often fell out the door after a days work utterly exhausted and unable to relax at home after being so wound up. In these bad times the abuse i get at public counters would not be tolerated in some other countries.I have had people curse at me for being in a job and earning ''top wages''. I wish people would just spare a thought for a moment and see how much they are upsetting many low paid workers.

ionix5891

anyone else hear the worlds smallest flute playing?

jokes aside what is the mean and the median wage, if anything statistics course has shown me to be suspicious of figures

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

Sorry jimmy but that is a poor representation of what happened...RTE sought a 10% pay cut from certain people....some of whom accepted and some of whom fought hard against it...notably one of those you mention

on the other hand Ministers and Secretary-Generals of Departments volunteered a 10% paycut in last year's budget...why not give them credit?

Credit to those who have given a pay cut. All of the RTE presenters as far as I know have taken a pay cut. There are many fatcats in secure well paid jobs ( with guaranteed pensions ) who still who have yet to do so....and the amount they should volunteer as a reduction should - I think - be a lot more than the token 10%. "When will most of the higest paid public servants start giving some of their pay + pensions back ? For example, the head of our central bank for our little country ( which is in the euro after all ) is paid more than any other central banker in the world. When will he hand back some of his salary ? Until people like him do, lesser paid people would resist from doing so too. The only solution is benchmarking, with pay reductions where appropriate sooner rather than later."

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

the amount they should volunteer as a reduction should - I think - be a lot more than the token 10%.

ah jimmmy, this is the sort of thing that shows you are just interested in bashing and punishing the public sector

a token 10%?:rolleyes:

jimmmy

Yrs, I believe some peoples pay should be rediced by more than 10%. For example, the head of our central bank , who I referred to and who is paid more than any other central banker in the world, could see his pay drop 10% and he would still be overpaid. And you accuse me of "bashing the public sector" when you see the bashing he and people like him have done to our countries finances ? If you want to see people really bashed, have a look at those who have lost their jobs or are on 3 days weeks.