It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 3:18pm

continuing emotional outbursts aside jimmmy, what exactly do you want to see happen to the public sector?

you call for pay reductions...I point out some have happened...you say not enough should be more...

do you want pay for all public servants reduced? if so, by how much?

do you want to see pensions removed or reduced? and if so by how much?

how many guards do you want to fire?
How many nurses?
how many teachers?

what is the appropriate pay for the head of the Central bank?

P. Breathnach · 27-05-2009 3:26pm

Riskymove wrote: »

continuing emotional outbursts aside jimmmy, what exactly do you want to see happen to the public sector? ...

Don't expect an answer until he finds one in the Indo.

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 3:33pm

jimmmy wrote: »

[And you accuse me of "bashing the public sector" when you see the bashing he and people like him have done to our countries finances ? If you want to see people really bashed, have a look at those who have lost their jobs or are on 3 days weeks.[/I]

and where are your posts calling for removal of bankers, stopping of their pensions? if you started a thread based on how how you'd get by on a week of Michael fingleton's pension I'm sure it would be a lot more than 966 burgers

what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?

no, no in jimmmy's world is the regulators sole fault

on that logic guards are responsible for the actions of criminals...

jimmmy · 27-05-2009 3:36pm

Riskymove wrote: »

continuing emotional outbursts aside jimmmy, what exactly do you want to see happen to the public sector?

As I said "The only solution is benchmarking, with pay reductions where appropriate sooner rather than later." The pensions levy is that : a pensions levy. Is it not unreasonable for public servants to pay some or most of the cost of giving them pensions ?
Benchmarking will establish by how much public sector wages + pensions need to be brought down ( or up as the case may be lol ) and to whom. Some public servants will be affected more than others. As regards the pay of the head of our central bank, I suggest the current situation where he is the highest paid central banker in the world is not satisfactory. Some of our public service pensioners are paid more than the average public service pay of any other country in the world - where is the justice in that ?

jimmmy · 27-05-2009 3:44pm

Riskymove wrote: »

if you started a thread based on how how you'd get by on a week of Michael fingleton's pension I'm sure it would be a lot more than 966 burgers

I never said it would not be. However, I never started a thread on any individuals pension.

Riskymove wrote: »

what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?

Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations and prosecutions either, are they ?

Riskymove wrote: »

no, no in jimmmy's world is the regulators sole fault

I never said that. The central bank and government ( because of the way they extended section 23 etc , among other reasons ) also are to blame for the state the country is in.

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 3:46pm

jimmmy wrote: »

As I said "The only solution is benchmarking, with pay reductions where appropriate sooner rather than later." The pensions levy is that : a pensions levy. Is it not unreasonable for public servants to pay some or most of the cost of giving them pensions ?
Benchmarking will establish by how much public sector wages + pensions need to be brought down ( or up as the case may be lol ) and to whom. Some public servants will be affected more than others. As regards the pay of the head of our central bank, I suggest the current situation where he is the highest paid central banker in the world is not satisfactory. Some of our public service pensioners are paid more than the average public service pay of any other country in the world - where is the justice in that ?

you understand how long a benchmarking process would take right?

I find it funny how people complained and complained about benchmarking and how it was not done properly, just an ATM etc but now think it will somehow work properly and recommend something they agree with!

I did not ask about the levy which has been covered already on other threads. My own view is that its not to do with pensions and has simply been a way to extract an extra tax from public sector workers. I'd rather have to pay more (yes more as I already contribute) contirbution to pension in return for concrete entitlements to which I currently have none

with regard to the central bank head, you just think he's overpaid but have no view on whats appropriate right? thats very helpful to the debate

I see you have ignored my other questions

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 3:50pm

I never said it would not be. However, I never started a thread on any individuals pension.

No, you started a thread about how you might get by on €966 a week in order to try and bash the public sector (again:rolleyes:) instead

Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations and prosecutions either, are they ?

you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop

I never said that. The central bank and government ( because of the way they extended section 23 etc , among other reasons ) also are to blame for the state the country is in

of course.....no private sector involvement at all:rolleyes:

jimmmy · 27-05-2009 4:07pm

Riskymove wrote: »

you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop

You were talking about bankers. You wrote "what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?" Was Dunlop a banker ?

jimmmy · 27-05-2009 4:14pm

Riskymove wrote: »

with regard to the central bank head, you just think he's overpaid but have no view on whats appropriate right? thats very helpful to the debate

Its no secret he is the highest paid central banker in the world. However, I do not have the figures to hand ( although I read them a few weeks ago ) on his exact pay relative to the central bank ( or equivalent ) heads in US, UK, Germany, Japan etc, never mind other small countries like us. Like some other "top" public servants , a pay cut of 20 to 40% may be required to bring his pay in to line.....if there was an efficient benchmarking process that can be done asap. Or else, as a German friend suggested recently, a 20% cut across everyone.

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 4:39pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Or else, as a German friend suggested recently, a 20% cut across everyone.

oh well..I mean...if he's German....guess he must be right!!

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 4:42pm

jimmmy wrote: »

You were talking about bankers. You wrote "what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?" Was Dunlop a banker ?

you mentioned that government and employees were not good at investigations...nothing mentioned about bankers...given there's no precedent of this level being uncovered, specifically saying they are not good at investigating bankers is fairly pointless..they are only starting

some banks are currently being investigated by bodies similar to those who investigated Dunlop

jimmmy · 27-05-2009 6:09pm

Riskymove wrote: »

you mentioned that government and employees were not good at investigations...nothing mentioned about bankers...given there's no precedent of this level being uncovered, specifically saying they are not good at investigating bankers is fairly pointless..they are only starting

some banks are currently being investigated by bodies similar to those who investigated Dunlop

You misunderstand. Read back through the posts. You were talking about bankers. You wrote "what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?" I ask you now : Was Dunlop a banker ?

I never said "that government and employees were not good at investigations"...that is different to what I said.
I wrote : "Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations and prosecutions either, are they ? "

P. Breathnach · 27-05-2009 7:11pm

jimmmy wrote: »

... I never said "that government and employees were not good at investigations"...that is different to what I said.
I wrote : "Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, and prosecutions either, are they ? "

Let's see if I can follow this:
jimmmy wrote: "the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations"
Riskymove wrote: "you mentioned that government and employees were not good at investigations" (not representing the words as a direct quote).
jimmmy suggests that what Riskymove wrote is different from what he said. Is that the same jimmmy who, when I cavilled about the Indo conflating the Civil Service with the Public Service, dismissed it with "Thats only nit-picking."?

Riskymove · 27-05-2009 7:50pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's see if I can follow this:
jimmmy wrote: "the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations"
Riskymove wrote: "you mentioned that government and employees were not good at investigations" (not representing the words as a direct quote).
jimmmy suggests that what Riskymove wrote is different from what he said. Is that the same jimmmy who, when I cavilled about the Indo conflating the Civil Service with the Public Service, dismissed it with "Thats only nit-picking."?

+1

sorry for offending you by totally misrepresenting your position:rolleyes:

jimmmy · 28-05-2009 10:53am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

jimmmy wrote: "the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations"

I actually wrote ( in reply to the question about " what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?")
"Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations and prosecutions either, are they ? "

Riskymove answered "you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop"

We were talking about bankers.
Was Dunlop a banker ?

:D:D:D As Riskymove seems unsure about that ( he did not answer the question yet) perhaps PBreatnach can help him out with that one ?

P. Breathnach · 28-05-2009 11:24am

jimmmy, stop throwing handfuls of dust around. You won't blind me to the core issue. You made an allegation that Riskymove had misrepresented what you said. It looks to me as if that was unfair.

Given that you have attributed to me views that I never stated, and don't hold, it is a bit cheeky of you to manufacture a complaint like this out of nothing.

And your badgering style is quite unpleasant. It implies that people here are answerable to you. I do not owe you any answers, nor does anybody else.

Riskymove · 28-05-2009 11:38am

jimmmy wrote: »

I actually wrote ( in reply to the question about " what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?")
"Yes indeed, it is up to the government + its employees to do that, where fraud has occured .....if fraud has occured, the govt and their employees are not very efficient at the investigations and prosecutions either, are they ? "

Riskymove answered "you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop"

We were talking about bankers.
Was Dunlop a banker ? :D:D:D As Riskymove seems unsure about that ( he did not answer the question yet) perhaps PBreatnach can help him out with that one ?

jimmmy, you really are clutching at straws aren't you.:rolleyes:..your attempts to to try and create an illussion of being right and everyone else being wrong really is quite pathethic and you are not doing your credibility any good behaving like a child...

anyway if it makes you feel better about your little infallible existence I think its fairly clear that Frank Dunlop is not a banker...

and so again...sorry for offending you by totally misrepresenting your position :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riskymove · 28-05-2009 11:40am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And your badgering style is quite unpleasant. It implies that people here are answerable to you. I do not owe you any answers, nor does anybody else.

+1

people are free to come here and post or not as they please

jimmmy has no authority to demand any standards and its also none of his business who someone is, where or if they work or when they are spending time on the internet

jimmmy · 28-05-2009 12:02pm

Riskymove wrote: »

anyway if it makes you feel better about your little infallible existence I think its fairly clear that Frank Dunlop is not a banker...

Why bring Mr. Dunlop in to the discussion when the topic that was being discussed was the banks ? You asked "" what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?")" As I said , it is up to the government + its employees to do that. What point are you trying to make by just writing " you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop"
I suggest you and P.Breatnach stop ganging up and going off on a tangent about the banks / Mr. Dunlop, when the core point of the thread is about our public sector, as reported by top economist and discussed in the media etc.

Riskymove · 28-05-2009 12:18pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Why bring Mr. Dunlop in to the discussion when the topic that was being discussed was the banks ? You asked "" what about fraud investigations and prosecutions for some of the outrageous actions by bankers (oh yes private sector workers!!)?")" As I said , it is up to the government + its employees to do that. What point are you trying to make by just writing " you'd be surprised...ask Frank Dunlop"
I suggest you and P.Breatnach stop ganging up and going off on a tangent about the banks / Mr. Dunlop, when the core point of the thread is about our public sector, as reported by top economist and discussed in the media etc.

good grief?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Fine, the core topic

I will mention again that Tony Foley's Paper points out that as we cannot properly measure output we cannot really judge productivity and efficiency and that this is a critical matter which Government should look at. he says there is "evidence to suggest" that our public servants are paid more than EU BUT that they could be producing higher productivity than EU but we cannot know for sure.

The Indo decides to have a headline claiming we have "the most unproductive" Public Servants in the EU...absolutely no evidence or quotes to that effect....typical of the Indo

what would you think of that jimmmy?

Tony Foley's report also makes clear that the sectors responsible for the most expansion and increase in pay are health and education. I have mentioned a few times i think reform is needed in health in particular?
This is far more important than reducing the pay of a few individual top public servants (although that is also being examined)

would you agree jimmmy?

Tony Foley mentions that the public often confuse the idea of the public service and the civil service. Calling for firings and reductions in pay for the civil servants but not those frontline staff in health, security, education etc; ignoring the fact that civil service is less than 10% of the overall public service....hardly going to reduce the costs that way are we?

jimmmy · 28-05-2009 1:17pm

Riskymove wrote: »

what would you think of that jimmmy?

I have answered your intepretation before, and would refer you back to the report, for you to digest properly please :
"Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.

Public-sector workers earn an average of €50,000 a year -- 32 per cent more than private-sector workers, who are on an average wage of €38,000.

That was before the last round of public pay increases.

As the private sector is decimated by rising unemployment and wage cuts, the study, by Dublin economist Anthony Foley, paints a dramatic picture of runaway expenditure that is soaking up huge amounts of tax and crippling the Irish economy."

Riskymove wrote: »

Calling for firings and reductions in pay for the civil servants but not those frontline staff in health, security, education etc; ignoring the fact that civil service is less than 10% of the overall public service....hardly going to reduce the costs that way are we?

Public expenditure has doubled from 32 billion euro in 2003 to approximately 60 odd billion today.....it seems obvious that everyone in the public service will have to be brought in to line with international pay rates and productivity. This applies for people from the head of our central bank ( the highest paid central banker in the world ) to everyone else , inc teachers etc ( who are paid more + work less hours + have more holidays than teachers in any other European country, as was proven in a thread several weeks ago ).

Riskymove · 28-05-2009 1:28pm

jimmmy wrote: »

I have answered your intepretation before, and would refer you back to the report, for you to digest properly please :
"Irish public-sector workers are better paid and are less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries, according to a study conducted by a leading Irish academic.

Public-sector workers earn an average of €50,000 a year -- 32 per cent more than private-sector workers, who are on an average wage of €38,000.

That was before the last round of public pay increases.

As the private sector is decimated by rising unemployment and wage cuts, the study, by Dublin economist Anthony Foley, paints a dramatic picture of runaway expenditure that is soaking up huge amounts of tax and crippling the Irish economy."

Jimmmy please answer the question...Tony Foley's report does not say anything about the public service being unproductive...let alone "less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries" as the Indo so claims

you just keep linking to the claims put forward by the Indo in their ususal balanced manner:rolleyes:.

I have read Tony Foley's report and you claimed to have read it too, please point out to me where it says or even alludes to Irish Public Servants being "less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries"

P. Breathnach · 28-05-2009 1:38pm

Riskymove wrote: »

... I have read Tony Foley's report and you claimed to have read it too, please point out to me where it says or even alludes to Irish Public Servants being "less productive than civil servants in other European Union countries"

Is it available online? Can you link it, please?

Riskymove · 28-05-2009 1:47pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is it available online? Can you link it, please?

Not that I am aware of, I have a hard copy

The_Conductor · 28-05-2009 1:59pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is it available online? Can you link it, please?

Its in the current edition of Administration (the IPA quarterly magazine). Riskymove's assessment is accurate.

jimmmy · 28-05-2009 2:16pm

Riskymove wrote: »

you just keep linking to the claims put forward by the Indo in their ususal balanced manner:rolleyes:.

Other papers, economists and magazines do too...look at the current issue of Fortune magazine for example. "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets "

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news/international/tully_ireland.fortune/index.htm

Its in the nature of us Irish to sometimes shoot the messenger if what we hear does not suit us...eg remember the German ambassador making that speech about Ireland 3 or 4 years ago ? He was proved right.

P. Breathnach · 28-05-2009 2:59pm

smccarrick wrote: »

Its in the current edition of Administration (the IPA quarterly magazine)...

Thanks. It's not on the newsstands out here in the sticks.

P. Breathnach · 28-05-2009 3:12pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Other papers, economists and magazines do too...look at the current issue of Fortune magazine for example. "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets "

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news/international/tully_ireland.fortune/index.htm...

Where is the research data in that piece?

I want to know the basis on which people here are suggesting or claiming that our civil servants or public servants are not productive.

jimmmy · 28-05-2009 3:35pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where is the research data in that piece?

I want to know the basis on which people here are suggesting or claiming that our civil servants or public servants are not productive.

Please read the report yourself. In the article it says "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets ".....read it yourself to see what it says - if anything lol lol - "about claiming that our civil servants or public servants are not productive." as you write

Before you dismiss the long article :rolleyes: ( like you dismiss every other economist / media source / newspaper / report as not being up to standard ) , bear in mind the standing of the magazine and its author Shawn Tully, senior editor at large.

Fortune is a global business magazine published by Time Inc.'s Fortune|Money Group. Founded by Henry Luce in 1930, the publishing business, consisting of Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated, grew to become Time Warner. In turn, AOL grew as it acquired Time Warner in 2000 when Time Warner was the world's largest media conglomerate.[1] Fortune's primary competitors in the national business magazine category are Forbes, which is also published bi-weekly, and BusinessWeek. The magazine is especially known for its annual features ranking companies by revenue. CNNMoney.com is the online home of Fortune, in addition to Money and Fortune Small Business.

The_Conductor · 28-05-2009 3:52pm

Jimmmy- the OECD report that Tony refers to has as its findings:

Irish public spending increased faster than any other OECD country apart from South Korea between 2000 and 2005.
expenditure in the public domain is small as a percentage of GDP compared to other OECD countries(third from bottom) but when measured relative to GNI Ireland(40.5%) in 2005 is much closer to the OECD average relative to GDP(42.7%)
the public sector is a major employer providing jobs for 16% of the labour force in 2007 or 363.9K persons.
the public sector workforce is relatively low by OECD standards and very low relative to Norway, Sweden, France, Finland and Belgium
public sector employment increased by 30% between 1995 and 2005 but declined as a percentage of the labour force
most of the public sector employment growth was in health and education
compensation costs of public sector employment has declined as a percentage of GDP
compensation costs per public sector employee have increased more rapidly than in the economy as a whole and this has been justified as a catch up process
public sector employment growth has not kept up with population.

How does this support your argument?

It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

Comments