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It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Please read the report yourself. In the article it says "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets ".....read it yourself to see what it says - if anything lol lol - "about claiming that our civil servants or public servants are not productive." as you write :D

    You cited the piece in such a way as to suggest that it supports the contention in this thread that Ireland has "the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants". Now you are backing off.
    Before you dismiss the long article :rolleyes: ( like you dismiss every other economist / media source / newspaper / report as not being up to standard ) , bear in mind the standing of the magazine and its author Shawn Tully, senior editor at large.

    Am I supposed to be impressed? The writer has a good job with a fairly respectable magazine. He wrote a piece of journalism. It was light on evidence. It's not off the wall, but it is not a serious study. I am seeking evidence in support of the opinions you are advancing or supporting, and all you can point to is other opinion pieces.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    You cited the piece in such a way as to suggest that it supports the contention in this thread that Ireland has "the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants". Now you are backing off.
    .

    Rubbish. Check back through the posts ...you wrote "you just keep linking to the claims put forward by the Indo in their ususal balanced mannerrolleyes.gif"

    I replied " Other papers, economists and magazines do too...look at the current issue of Fortune magazine for example. "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets "

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news...tune/index.htm

    Its in the nature of us Irish to sometimes shoot the messenger if what we hear does not suit us...eg remember the German ambassador making that speech about Ireland 3 or 4 years ago ? He was proved right."


    At least we can now add Shawn Tully, senior editor at large, from
    Fortune ( the global business magazine published by Time Inc.'s Fortune|Money Group.) as another person who you do not agree with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    ...you wrote "you just keep linking to the claims put forward by the Indo in their ususal balanced mannerrolleyes.gif"

    Actually I wrote that jimmmy

    I see you have decided to ignore my questions about Tony Foley's report which you have claimed to have read and move on to some other report which says we need to reduce public expenditure

    perhaps you will eventually come back to my questions about the Indo's claim that Tony Foley's report says we have a public service which is less productive than may in the EU when I believe its apparant from the report it says nothing of the kind!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    jimmmy wrote: »
    The point is we have the EU's highest paid and least productive government employees.

    here's a direct quote from you jimmmy...now please show me where in Tony Foley's report there is any evidence of "least productive government employees"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 pieye


    Anyone else think we should make organizations like the consumers board illegal.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 capsubsidy.com


    smccarrick wrote: »
    expenditure in the public domain is small as a percentage of GDP compared to other OECD countries(third from bottom) but when measured relative to GNI Ireland(40.5%) in 2005 is much closer to the OECD average relative to GDP(42.7%)
    That was 2005. GDP from the close on the height of the property bubble,

    GDP growth in 2006,20007,2008 and forecast 2009 is +5.7%, +6%, -2.3%, -7%. URL="http://www.bankofireland.ie/html/gws/capital_markets/treasury/economic_research/index.html"]reference[/URL

    This will leave 2009 GDP at +1.8% from 2005 figures.

    Government expenditure in 2005 was €41.8b, in 2009 it will be €61bn, this represents a +48% increase.

    This will put our PS spend way ahead of the OECD average.

    If you are using the OECD report to justify the PS spend, you should highlight this in future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    I'm struggling to understand how it expanded so fast.

    Where they just creating jobs to give to people losing jobs in manufacturing or something?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    pieye wrote: »
    Anyone else think we should make organizations like the consumers board illegal.

    illegal?:rolleyes: why?

    could be fun though..."who are you?" ...."Chairman of the Consumer Board"......."Up against the wall scumbag!!"


    If only we could make the Indo illegal....:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    thebman wrote: »
    I'm struggling to understand how it expanded so fast.

    Where they just creating jobs to give to people losing jobs in manufacturing or something?

    The figures refer to total government expenditure not just the public pay bill ..I think thats about €20bn (although that has increased too obviously)

    It includes welfare payments (which is a huge chunk) and all other spending


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 capsubsidy.com


    thebman wrote: »
    I'm struggling to understand how it expanded so fast.

    Where they just creating jobs to give to people losing jobs in manufacturing or something?

    Bertie was buying votes and the electorate were lapping it up
    Linky


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 capsubsidy.com


    Riskymove wrote: »
    The figures refer to total government expenditure not just the public pay bill ..I think thats about €20bn (although that has increased too obviously)

    It includes welfare payments (which is a huge chunk) and all other spending

    That's true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Bertie was buying votes and the electorate were lapping it up
    Linky

    +1

    any analysis of last couple of decades will show significant increases in public expenditure in General Election years


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Riskymove wrote: »

    I see you have decided to ignore my questions about Tony Foley's report which you have claimed to have read and move on to some other report which says we need to reduce public expenditure

    I have answered most of your questions already, one way or another, while some of the questions I asked you remain unanswered.
    Riskymove wrote: »
    perhaps you will eventually come back to my questions about the Indo's claim that Tony Foley's report says we have a public service which is less productive than may in the EU when I believe its apparant from the report it says nothing of the kind!

    Read it again. Do not forget it is the highest paid public service ...that is in the main thrust of the report. Maybe you despite the relatively short working week, the long holidays (eg our teachers get far more holidays than anyone else in Europe ) and our "sickie" rates ( nothing to be proud of there either ) , we are super productive, which justifies our public service pay being the highest in Europe, if not the world ? :rolleyes:

    Only last week I spent hours debating away with a poster on this very forum, grahamo, a public servant, and I asked him how he was on for so long one morning ( 20-25 minutes at least) , and he said it was ok, he was on his tea break !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    That was 2005. GDP from the close on the height of the property bubble,

    GDP growth in 2006,20007,2008 and forecast 2009 is +5.7%, +6%, -2.3%, -7%. URL="http://www.bankofireland.ie/html/gws/capital_markets/treasury/economic_research/index.html"]reference[/URL

    This will leave 2009 GDP at +1.8% from 2005 figures.

    Government expenditure in 2005 was €41.8b, in 2009 it will be €61bn, this represents a +48% increase.

    This will put our PS spend way ahead of the OECD average.

    If you are using the OECD report to justify the PS spend, you should highlight this in future.

    Well said. As far as I remember public expenditure in 2003 was only 30 or 32 billion, but I am open to correction on that.

    When you write "This will put our PS spend way ahead of the OECD average", do not forget we do not have a high military spend , any NATO involvement, conscription, etc in this country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,888 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    I have answered most of your questions already, one way or another, while some of the questions I asked you remain unanswered.

    patently untrue....you have ignored the question completely and simply re=posted the article text

    show me any evidence of the Public service being one of the least productive in the EU in the report


    Read it again. Do not forget it is the highest paid public service ...that is in the main thrust of the report. Maybe you despite the relatively short working week, the long holidays (eg our teachers get far more holidays than anyone else in Europe ) and our "sickie" rates ( nothing to be proud of there either ) , we are super productive, which justifies our public service pay being the highest in Europe, if not the world ? :rolleyes:

    I am not saying we are the most productive..... because there is no evidence.....but that lack of evidence does not stop the Indo claiming, or it seems you welcoming, claims about the public service being one of the least productive in the EU

    double-standards jimmmy


    This "perk" thing you like to go on about all the time is very much like Indo-style reporting...you take every thing you have ever heard about public servants and make out it applies to all the public service...cheap tricks

    I assure you I don't get teacher's holidays, "sickies" or flexi-time
    Only last week I spent hours debating away with a poster on this very forum, grahamo, a public servant, and I asked him how he was on for so long one morning ( 20-25 minutes at least) , and he said it was ok, he was on his tea break !
    [/QUOTE]

    Not the first time you have gotten personal on this thread...very bad form in a debate

    you have no idea how long he works or how productive he is and just make cheap digs based on the idea of a tea break


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Only last week I spent hours debating away with a poster on this very forum, grahamo, a public servant, and I asked him how he was on for so long one morning ( 20-25 minutes at least) , and he said it was ok, he was on his tea break !
    How convenient for you.

    I'm surprised that BBS posting is allowed in the PS (WebMarshall anyone?) as the IP addresses are easily traced and the departments could be liable for the content of the posts.

    Perhaps grahamo was pulling your leg?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Some day when jimmmy has all public servants slaving in his underground sugar caves he'll come on here and give out about all their "perks", like not working in the rain or reduced skin cancer incidences.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Only last week I spent hours debating away with a poster on this very forum, grahamo, a public servant, and I asked him how he was on for so long one morning ( 20-25 minutes at least) , and he said it was ok, he was on his tea break !

    How come you're on so much jimmmy? What's your story? What are you doing to save the economy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    RATM wrote: »
    New research has found that Ireland's civil servants are the highest paid and least productive the in the EU.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-civil-servants-have-best-deal-in-eu-study-shows-1749381.html...

    Right. Back to the original post. I got the opportunity to read Foley's paper. It is a carefully crafted piece of desk research, and the findings are expressed in somewhat tentative terms. In particular, Foley makes the point that it is difficult to measure productivity, and does not take a position on how productive the public service is. One detail is that the public sector grew pretty well in line with the private sector in the period 1998-2007 (slight ups and downs over the years, but a good degree of parallel).

    The piece in the Independent is a distortion of Foley's paper. The tone of the treatment in the Independent is quite different from the measured tone of Foley's piece, and the quotations seem selected to advance a partisan message rather than to reflect Foley's judgements.

    [Did you really read it, jimmmy, or do you think that reading a journalist's representation of it is the same as reading the piece itself?]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    @ jimmmy

    give up, you wont get anyone from the public sector to admit they are redundant or better paid (on average) or have better job security (never get fired) and have cozy pensions (at least they have them)

    let the gravy train roll, the day people outside our country decide to stop buying Irish bonds (or the interest rate gets to high to handle) would be the day that reality will hit home

    we the taxpayer just have to bite our lip and hand over money every time revenue sends a demand for more blood money thru the letter box, and bite our arm every time a the government (a public sector body) decides to hand over money to their banking and builder buddies

    so far i gathered that its not ok to point out at the obvious flab in the public sector, as the people who work in it seem to have forgot the very name and meaning of the title "Serving the public" not "fleecing the public"

    while these people are worried about loosing 10% on their pensions, most of us are worried about whether we will have a job tommorow, whether our companies can survive any longer of this, whether our jobs be outsourced, and whether we will be taxed even more

    :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    True enough ionix. It is interesting to read the major piece about Ireland in Fortune magazine, one of the premier business / economics magazines in the world. http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news...tune/index.htm Outsider experts can sometimes get a better perspective on our economic problems than we can ourselves. I quote from it " Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets "


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jimmmy, I'll draw your attention once again to the rule on "soapboxing", defined as pushing a single agenda without an attempt to seriously engage with opposing points of view.

    In post #170, it was pointed out to you that the article on which this thread was based is at best a distortion of the report on which it was based. I'd like you to respond to that point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    True enough ionix. It is interesting to read the major piece about Ireland in Fortune magazine, one of the premier business / economics magazines in the world. http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news...tune/index.htm Outsider experts can sometimes get a better perspective on our economic problems than we can ourselves. I quote from it " Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets "

    Recycling again, jimmmy? That piece is not evidence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    On the topic, there was a thread a few months ago about teachers pulling in an average of 60k wage yearly. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

    There is no evidence that a teacher can pull this in in any other country in the EU. http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Right. Back to the original post. I got the opportunity to read Foley's paper. It is a carefully crafted piece of desk research, and the findings are expressed in somewhat tentative terms. In particular, Foley makes the point that it is difficult to measure productivity, and does not take a position on how productive the public service is. One detail is that the public sector grew pretty well in line with the private sector in the period 1998-2007 (slight ups and downs over the years, but a good degree of parallel).

    The piece in the Independent is a distortion of Foley's paper. The tone of the treatment in the Independent is quite different from the measured tone of Foley's piece, and the quotations seem selected to advance a partisan message rather than to reflect Foley's judgements.

    Fine lets call it a distortion so if you want to. Pay is more easily measured than productivity, and its interesting that you focus on the productivity angle rather than the pay angle in the headline of the thread
    " It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants ".

    There have been numerous other articles regarding the poor value ( shall we say ) that Ireland is getting from its public service. I showed you the link to the major piece in Fortune magazine. Oh, and yes, our teacher pay is the highest in the EC, and their holidays etc the longest, but I read that in a quality broadsheet, it was not online I read that. Reasearch that yourself if you want , I do not have time to go off on that tangent at the moment. I think there was a thread on that topic about a month ago ?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Sorry forgive me- I don't understand what you're trying to say. What point are you trying to make?

    Cheers,

    S.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    There are 12 different points in my post above. I believe it answers the queries asked by oscarbravo, gurramok etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Fine lets call it a distortion so if you want to. Pay is more easily measured than productivity, and its interesting that you focus on the productivity angle rather than the pay angle in the headline of the thread
    " It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants ".

    It is very reasonable to focus on the claims made about productivity, given that both the thread title and the opening post highlight it -- and do so based on a questionable interpretation of a serious academic study.
    There have been numerous other articles regarding the poor value ( shall we say ) that Ireland is getting from its public service. I showed you the link to the major piece in Fortune magazine. Oh, and yes, our teacher pay is the highest in the EC, and their holidays etc the longest, but I read that in a quality broadsheet, it was not online I read that. Reasearch that yourself if you want , I do not have time to go off on that tangent at the moment. I think there was a thread on that topic about a month ago ?

    It is quite unreasonable to cite bad journalism (the Indo) in support of your position. It is specious to take a respectable piece of journalism (Fortune) and imply that it proves anything -- it is not an effort to prove anything.

    And then you pick up something that gurramok posted, and offer it as if it was something new that you had brought to the discussion.

    I am dealing with the allegation that our public service is unproductive. It's not a tangent. If you cannot adduce evidence that gainsays me, then stop tackling my posts. In particular, stop tackling them with bad rhetoric, inappropriate citations, recycled material from earlier in the thread, and false claims about the relevance of things.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Fine lets call it a distortion so if you want to.
    That falls a long way short of what I consider "taking other people's points on board". The article is a distortion of the report. Have you read the report?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That falls a long way short of what I consider "taking other people's points on board". The article is a distortion of the report. Have you read the report?

    Let's not undervalue progress: it's closer than he has come before.

    And he read the report: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60424738&postcount=111


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