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It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants

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    #182
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Its not as if nobody else has ever come to the same conclusion about our "public service"...eg in the major article in the current article of Fortune magazine "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets"
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news...tune/index.htm


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    #183
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Its not as if nobody else has ever come to the same conclusion about our "public service"...eg in the major article in the current article of Fortune magazine "Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets"
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/13/news...tune/index.htm

    Nothing new, jimmmy? Has nobody else supplied you with a link to present as if you had actually found something?


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    #184
    capsubsidy.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24 ✭capsubsidy.com


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Fine lets call it a distortion so if you want to. Pay is more easily measured than productivity, and its interesting that you focus on the productivity angle rather than the pay angle in the headline of the thread
    " It's Official: we have the EU's highest paid and least productive civil servants ".
    Start a new thread would be your best bet now


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    #185
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Nothing new, jimmmy?
    Apart from that fortune report during the week, by one of America leading economists, which said ""Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets". That was just the latest report ....the article in the Independent was another.....maybe they are all wrong...maybe the pay and pensions of our public service should stay the highest in Europe. As a public service pensioner I am sure you will not be complaining if they do anyway. Or maybe you will follow the lead of some politicians and RTE people and give back some of your income ? After all, why should someone now receive more as a public service pension than the earnings of some workers , and more than they ever contributed to ?


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    #186
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Apart from that fortune report during the week, by one of America leading economists, which said ""Prime Minister Cowen needs to lower headcounts and reduce public-sector pay far more than the modest reductions so far to meet his targets". That was just the latest report ....the article in the Independent was another.....maybe they are all wrong...

    It has been shown to you that the article in the Independent was wrong; you claim to have read the paper on which it was based, so you should know it was wrong. The Fortune piece was descriptive writing by a journalist, not by "one of America leading economists". So then, nothing new, and a failure to take account of what you are being told here.
    maybe the pay and pensions of our public service should stay the highest in Europe. As a public service pensioner I am sure you will not be complaining if they do anyway. Or maybe you will follow the lead of some politicians and RTE people and give back some of your income ? After all, why should someone now receive more as a public service pension than the earnings of some workers , and more than they ever contributed to ?

    You're getting personal, jimmmy. I let it be known that I am a public service pensioner because it is good practice to disclose any interest that might affect what I say or do. Readers who pay attention might have observed that I try not to put that interest ahead of the general good. How I live my life, and what I do with my income, is none of your business.


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    #187
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    It has been shown to you that the article in the Independent was wrong; you claim to have read the paper on which it was based, so you should know it was wrong. .

    The article in the independent was generally not wrong...if it was, you should take it up with those responsible for the article. Next thing is, you will say public servants in Ireland are not the highest paid in Europe ! lol lol.

    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    The Fortune piece was descriptive writing by a journalist, not by "one of America leading economists"..

    It was a major, detailed piece by author Shawn Tully, senior editor at large. He is widely respected, as is the magazine, , Fortune, which is is a global business magazine published by Time Inc.'s Fortune|Money Group. ( Founded by Henry Luce in 1930, the publishing business, consisting of Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated, grew to become Time Warner. In turn, AOL grew as it acquired Time Warner in 2000 when Time Warner was the world's largest media conglomerate.[1] Fortune's primary competitors in the national business magazine category are Forbes, which is also published bi-weekly, and BusinessWeek. The magazine is especially known for its annual features ranking companies by revenue. CNNMoney.com is the online home of Fortune, in addition to Money and Fortune Small Business. ).

    Its interesting you have not disagreed with what was written in the very long article
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I let it be known that I am a public service pensioner because it is good practice to disclose any interest that might affect what I say or do.
    Nobody - least of all I - asked you what you did for a living, or if you were retired. However, its no secret you are a retired public service pensioner, and as such get money from the public purse. As long as the govt is in a position to keep giving that money to people like yourself, you can spend it on what you like, and its none of my business what you spend it on. Just because some people have taken a voluntary reduction does not mean everyone has to.


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    #188
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmmy wrote: »
    The article in the independent was generally not wrong...

    Yes it was, and you have been told how it was. You're back in making-things-up territory.
    It was a major, detailed piece by author Shawn Tully, senior editor at large. He is widely respected, as is the magazine, , Fortune, which is is a global business magazine published by Time Inc.'s Fortune|Money Group. ( Founded by Henry Luce in 1930, the publishing business, consisting of Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated, grew to become Time Warner. In turn, AOL grew as it acquired Time Warner in 2000 when Time Warner was the world's largest media conglomerate.[1] Fortune's primary competitors in the national business magazine category are Forbes, which is also published bi-weekly, and BusinessWeek. The magazine is especially known for its annual features ranking companies by revenue. CNNMoney.com is the online home of Fortune, in addition to Money and Fortune Small Business. ).

    Its interesting you have not disagreed with what was written in the very long article

    Jaysus! It is a piece of journalism in a respected business publication. It is not a research exercise; it is not work of scholarship; it has no significant amount of hard data; it is painting a picture. Don't try to pass it off as more than it is.
    Nobody - least of all I - asked you what you did for a living, or if you were retired. However, its no secret you are a retired public service pensioner, and as such get money from the public purse. As long as the govt is in a position to keep giving that money to people like yourself, you can spend it on what you like, and its none of my business what you spend it on. Just because some people have taken a voluntary reduction does not mean everyone has to.

    What a dishonest paragraph! You now say that it's none of your business what I spend my income on. Just after suggesting that I should volunteer to give some of it back to the government (despite your knowing almost nothing about my personal circumstances). Now how about trying the honourable thing: your suggestion was inappropriate, and you should acknowledge that it was.


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    #189
    grahamo
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    Hear! Hear! I'm sick of attempting to debate with jimmmy, he has absolutetly no idea of what the real world is like!


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    #190
    KINGVictor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭KINGVictor


    Hasschu wrote: »
    In response to Mccarrick and Capsubsidy. I have worked for 4 gov'ts as an employee directly and indirectly with half a dozen more as a contract employee. I know the fine distinctions all too well. In the country I am in now the public uses the phrase "on the public purse" as a catchall for people paid directly or indirectly by the gov't (taxpayers). For example primary and secondary schools are funded half and half by municipalities and higher levels of gov't. The higher levels of gov't set the pay scales and the municipalities have school boards that manage the day to day affairs of the schools. Universities are subsidised by the higher levels of gov't (25% to 40%). The teachers at primary and secondary schools are "on the public purse" while the university employees are not. Ireland is awash in "Quangos" a Margaret Thatcher concoction to give the illusion that gov't is smaller than it is. There is no getting away from nepotism and cronyism and Ireland has perfected the ways in which politicians can claim to be at arms length from wrong doing. It is technically correct to say that only employees in a chain of command that reports directly to a cabinet minister or a prime minister is a civil servant. The public at large looks at where the money goes and if it goes to an overpaid dysfunctional quango everybody gets tarred with the same brush. Quango means quasi (demi, semi) non governmental organization.



    With all the hammering on Jimmy...I never saw a responce to this....:pac:


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    #191
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    KINGVictor wrote: »
    With all the hammering on Jimmy...I never saw a responce to this....:pac:

    So?

    I didn't respond because I couldn't make out what the point was. It seems to have little to do with Ireland.


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    #192
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    So?

    I didn't respond because I couldn't make out what the point was. It seems to have little to do with Ireland.

    P. Breathnach

    for future historical reference

    can we have you on record saying

    that Irish public sector is not bloated and overpaid


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    #193
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    P. Breathnach

    for future historical reference

    can we have you on record saying

    that Irish public sector is not bloated and overpaid

    No. Nor can you validly infer the opposite from my answer.


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    #194
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    No. Nor can you validly infer the opposite from my answer.

    youve just ensured this thread will run for another 10 pages at least


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    #195
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    i just wanted closure and someone to quote when more trustworthy figures emerge

    nvm

    carry on


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    #196
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Perhaps people might consider what this thread is actually about: it's an effort to conflate the issue of pay in the public service with productivity. They are not one issue, and people are trying to treat them as one.

    There are side issues:
    - a failure to understand that the civil service and the public service are not the same thing;
    - the misinterpretation of an academic paper, and an inappropriate use of the writer's prestige to advance a view that he did not put forward;
    - a disregard of any idea of evidence;
    - an amount of unnecessary unpleasantness.


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    #197
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    that Irish public sector is not bloated and overpaid?
    No more so than the private sector. A small bottle of Chardonnay (about a glassful) in a mediocre Louth restaurant - €7.50.

    A buggy operating system with features you don't want and that slows down your PC & which is a mandatory purchase when you buy one? $$$

    International data roaming charges..kaching!


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    #198
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    No more so than the private sector. A small bottle of Chardonnay (about a glassful) in a mediocre Louth restaurant - €7.50.

    A buggy operating system with features you don't want and that slows down your PC & which is a mandatory purchase when you buy one? $$$

    International data roaming charges..kaching!

    your missing one glaring point young jedi :D

    if you dont like it you can move on (eat in Supermacs or install free Linux) as theres competition, if a monopoly/cartel exists (roaming charges) EU steps in and slaps companies around (Intel, Microsoft paying huge fines)

    you cant do that with public sector, your money disappears one way or another, thats why taxpayers want better value for money for the services received.

    is it clear now?? :cool:


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    #199
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    ionix5891 wrote: »
    ... if a monopoly/cartel exists (roaming charges) EU steps in and slaps companies around (Intel, Microsoft paying huge fines)...

    You mean the highly-paid and unproductive public servants in the EU?


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    #200
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    You mean the highly-paid and unproductive public servants in the EU?

    Ha ha. Excellent!


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    #201
    ionix5891
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭ionix5891


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    You mean the highly-paid and unproductive public servants in the EU?

    if a private company does that there would be a conflict of interest...

    it is the EUs main job to ensure a fair and common market

    neither did mention I anything about the eu public servants productivity, most of them are not paid by ireland either...

    this thread is about the "fat" irish public sector thats needs billions in continuing borrowing to mantain


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