Learning off answers.

rebel girl 15

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

I totally agree with the statement - people memorise the beat the system. Teacher encourage it because it works. And the system is where the flaw lies.

I agree, somewhat. But, I don't believe that people should be encouraged to learn off answers. It shouldn't be about beating the system; it should be about your education.

The thing you said about educating yourself, schools don't give you a full education. You don't need a two thirds of the stuff that you learn in school in life.

There's no such thing as a full education: every bit of knowledge you can get your metaphorical hands on will add to your education.

Of course you don't need two thirds of the stuff that you learn. You don't need 99% of the information you could learn. The point of giving yourself an education isn't about attaining knowledge for the sake of its purpose; it's about attaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge. If we learnt by the school of thought that you imply, would there be poetry? Would there be most of pure mathematics? Would there be music? Would there be art? No. The point of learning isn't for its usable attributes; it's for the sake of learning.

At least that's my stance on education anyway.

rebel girl 15

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

The HEAR issue has been done to death here. And anyway, they don't take "regular" places: HEAR students have a number of places set aside. So, they're not taking places from people with higher points.

those places could be set aside as regular places, thats where I was coming from. I know the places are set aside, but I wanted sligos opinion on it.

rebel girl 15

Dmann, that is the attitude that thousands of students have this year, and for the last 50 years! It works - and I still don't understand why people call it cheating!

rebel girl 15

Jammy Dodger, I love your statement about it being about the sake of learning.

Learning should be about broadening your horizons, taking on new information, a permanent revoultion. Education is what you learn every day, but the school system in Ireland could help instill life skills in students - you see students who get 600 points, but cannot present themselves in an interview properly. Some useful life skills would be great to see in schools, so that students come out as rounded individuals.

You mention poetry, maths, music and art - the answer to your question is yes. I'm not saying just have education about life skills, but make things a little more pertinant to life in general. Students end up resenting subjects like English because of the way the system is. I used hate poetry with a passion, but now I have an appreciation for it, because I am open minded. The system closes the minds of students.

Educate that you may be free is a phrase that springs to mind. But what do we define as education, and what do we define as freedom.

Denerick

students learn pointless information that they will never use again

What would you rather do? Learn about how to make a Madeira Cake? Thats pretty much what they're doing in the UK and their A Level system is a piece of piss - For example, I only got 485 points in my LC, but I did get an A1, two A2s and a B1. Those four marks make me Oxbridge material in England. That is just pointless.

The Irish education is well rounded, you come out of it with good basic literacy in maths, English, and a couple of business or science subjects. Its only meant to be the start of the development of your minds, but at least it gives you a broad enough platform to work with.

HQvhs

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Some useful life skills would be great to see in schools, so that students come out as rounded individuals.

Most people have perfectly good life skills. Schools give you knowledge and, more importantly, the ability to get more knowledge. You can develop your own life skills through friends, clubs, hobbies etc.

You mention poetry, maths, music and art - the answer to your question is yes. I'm not saying just have education about life skills, but make things a little more pertinant to life in general. Students end up resenting subjects like English because of the way the system is. I used hate poetry with a passion, but now I have an appreciation for it, because I am open minded. The system closes the minds of students.

And how would you improve on the system? I love poetry and english in general. Always have. Now, for the life of me I cannot write up a beautifully crafted essay on the spot in an exam. But, thanks to classes discussing english I can make good observations and put them down and still get a decent grade because I'm answering the question on the paper. Examiners don't want to see a work of literary genius in the exam, they want to see what you know and what you have learned. Language is only 20% of paper 2 and as long as you have a decent grasp of syntax you get most of them.
The "system" does not close the mind of the students. It's your (and not the school's) responsibility to broaden your horizons. You can take an interest in art if you so wish. You can go home and read a novel or poetry at night in bed if you want. You can take up an instrument or read up on something that interests you. I don't see how the "system" stops you from doing that. It hasn't stopped me and it hasn't stopped anyone else I know.

Nanaki

Personally, I'm against learning by rote. It's memorising, not necessarily understanding. Sure, if that's what gives you and understanding of something, by all means, do what works for you. But if you're simply learning reams of text off, well, I guess you'll get the marks you deserve.

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

you will end up having grammer mistakes, which lower your mark

:pac:

rebel girl 15

Nanaki wrote: »

Personally, I'm against learning by rote. It's memorising, not necessarily understanding. Sure, if that's what gives you and understanding of something, by all means, do what works for you. But if you're simply learning reams of text off, well, I guess you'll get the marks you deserve.


:pac:

I'm against rote learning, but it is what works for people, so students do it. Can I get an answer to why rote learning is dishonest? Learning off answers is cheating? I really don't understand what peoples problem with it is.

Nanaki

I never said it's dishonest nor cheating, once its your own work in the exam.
But imo it doesn't give an understand of a topic, whatever it may be. Hence I consider it more useful to actually learn the material.
Imo this is what keeps honours maths classes smaller in most schools. You can't regurgitate your textbook onto the answer booklet, you need an understanding of what you've been taught, not just a memory of it.

Also, I'm all for people doing whatever works for them. I'm just giving my thoughts. Fairly sure I stated that

rebel girl 15

Nanaki wrote: »

I never said it's dishonest nor cheating, once its your own work in the exam.
But imo it doesn't give an understand of a topic, whatever it may be. Hence I consider it more useful to actually learn the material.
Imo this is what keeps honours maths classes smaller in most schools. You can't regurgitate your textbook onto the answer booklet, you need an understanding of what you've been taught, not just a memory of it.

Also, I'm all for people doing whatever works for them. I'm just giving my thoughts. Fairly sure I stated that

I agree with that - and that is the only subject is which it happens! Which then shows that rote learning is used in other classes.

Rote learning does not give an understanding, definately does not - It is well known that when you do anything, unless you understand its actual circumstances, its nature and its relations to other things, you will not know the laws governing it, or know how to do it, or be able to do it well.

that question about honest isn't directed at u Nanaki, there is a few who posted here who say that rote learning is dishonest, and haven't really explained their stance on it.

SligoBrewer

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

that question about honest isn't directed at u Nanaki, there is a few who posted here who say that rote learning is dishonest, and haven't really explained their stance on it.

Cause I have a little Leaving Cert to be studying for.

There are things which have to be learned off, quotes to back up an essay, proofs in maths and formulae and definitions in the sciences.

However, the blatent learning of 3 page long essays on Desertification, or Urban Renewal or an essay on Kingship on Macbeth to regurgitate on the day is horrible, and dishonest, cheating not only my own mind but someone one else out of a college place.

At the end of this blasted Leaving Cert, I'd like to study Philosophy and Irish. To get this course, should be based on my ability to swallow and regurgitate but to fully think for myself and to come up with an understanding of Macbeth, Eutrophication or whatever. There are only so many places in the Philosophy TSM course in TCD, lets say 60 (I'm probably wrong),and if I got the sixtieth place by learning off an A1 essay on the Scottish play, I would feel awful. Yeah, great I got my course Yeow etc etc. But there is someone else out there who a better natural ability at learning, who has suffered at the expense of my method of "learning".

If I missed out on my course due to random selection or by 5 points, I would be disgusted. Because I know that on that course is a person who has got there by sheer cheating. The English course is built to examine a student's understanding of texts, not to ****ing learn off essays.

Yeah it's a means to an end, and it's cruel, dishonest and doesn't reward students with natural ability.
To "beat the system" is a paraphrase for cheating. The system despite all its faults, is a system of examination, there to be respected.

SligoBrewer

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

those places could be set aside as regular places, thats where I was coming from. I know the places are set aside, but I wanted sligos opinion on it.

The HEAR system is great. Long live the HEAR system. It's a system, has a purpose, and it's great.

Yeow. It's great.

rebel girl 15

Sligo, I can't believe that you call that cheating. You would feel awful for doing it? I did it, got my course and I'm delighted that I did. I didn't care how I got my course once I got it!!!!! I know there are people in my class that all they did was rote learn off stuff, and their natural ability is for that course, not for study!


So in the case of desertification, what is someone supposed to do? How are they supposed to learn that, other than learning off paragraphs on it? Understanding it is all well and good, but can you get the required number of SRP's from it just by understanding it. You have to learn off information!


the person with the natural ability for learning will get on grand for the leaving cert - they are the people to which learning and regurgitating information comes easily to Anyway, how will you know if that person who may knock you out of your course has natural ability or not? More often that not, the people with natural ability for a course get screwed - I know of a case of a girl who wanted nursing, but did not achieve the required marks, she did not have a natural gift for learning in school. anyway, strings were pulled to get her into the course - after her years of training she came out with a number of awards, including the overall graduate nurse in IRELAND! She had natural ability - but not for learning.


Look at medicine and the changes that they have had to bring in - those people who have a natural ability for learning, and get very high points tended to want the prestigious courses such as medicine, but many of them had to drop out and change courses because medicine was not for them - there would be more personality in rocks than some of them FFS!!


You call that sheer cheating, then you have never experience sheer cheating in your life!

happydayz182

haha this has got to be a joke...everything you study is bascially learning off answers! break them down and there just points on a page. Learning off answers in english paper 1 just shows ones lack of ability to compose but they have to work at learning off an answer then. For history i tend to take sample essays break them down into points of fact and then rewrite them including thos facts in my own words. Its still learning off. To feel guilty about learning off after putting in their effort is a bit far fetched

nkay1985

Hey,

I got an A2 in English a few years back. There is no way to learn off answers for English.

But sample answers can be of great benefit to you. For example if you've got a sample answer for X being a central theme of POET A's work and you got a Leaving Cert question of Y being a central theme of POET B's, then the structure of the sample answer will be very useful to know.

If you've got two or three sample answers on a poet that you could snip bits from to form an answer in the LC, that would be beneficial.

But if I can give any advice on English whatsoever, it's to answer the question that you're asked, not the one you wanted to be asked.

Denerick

Of course studying is about learning off things. Learning off entire chunks of sample essays are just wrong - you're not writing down your own consciousness but someone else's. Some people have an autistic mind and others do not (I for example am very bad with specifics and quotes etc.) Its unfair to use what is essentially a disability (Having a freakish ability to memorise entire paragraphs) to the detriment of others who actually understand the theme in question and answer it with honesty and real analysis. Just my two cents.

happydayz182

Its not a freakish ability like i wish i had it but it the same as being really good at maths or art it just a benfit you should take advantage of. There is ways to improve your memory!

Denerick

happydayz182 wrote: »

Its not a freakish ability like i wish i had it but it the same as being really good at maths or art it just a benfit you should take advantage of. There is ways to improve your memory!

It is a freakish abilitity when someone doesn't even understand the concept or has really analysed the novel on its own merits. A guy in my class got an A2 in English and hadn't even read the novel for the LC.

bythewoods

Denerick wrote: »

It is a freakish abilitity when someone doesn't even understand the concept or has really analysed the novel on its own merits. A guy in my class got an A2 in English and hadn't even read the novel for the LC.

Ahaaaa, I haven't read all of Macbeth (Haven't a clue of the storyline), one of my comparative texts, or most of Lizzie bishop's poems.
A1 on paper 2 in the mocks though :P
YUSSS! :P

Learning off answers (Or even plans for answers) is indeed the way to go.
Like, I write the essays myself, so they ARE my own work, they're just not... fabricated the day of an exam.
I don't see it as cheating at all tbh...
I don't care if it is anyway, I have no morals- just a burning desire for an A1.

bythewoods

bythewoods wrote: »

Ahaaaa, I haven't read all of Macbeth (Haven't a clue of the storyline)

For shame, for shame! There's no point having Shakespeare on the course if people aren't going to read his work. I only wish there was more of his writing on it, to be honest. Nothing can beat good old 16th century English.

implausible

Denerick wrote: »

Some people have an autistic mind and others do not....Its unfair to use what is essentially a disability (Having a freakish ability to memorise entire paragraphs) to the detriment of others

Denerick wrote: »

It is a freakish abilitity when someone doesn't even understand the concept or has really analysed the novel on its own merits.

There are so many problems with these post, I don't know where to start!

1. It is suggesting that having a disability i.e. autism, is somehow cheating.
2. It is insulting to people with autism by describing them as 'freakish'.
2. I suspect that what you are talking about is people who have a photographic memory, not people who are autistic.
3. At the end of the day, learning off essays will not get you an A1, as you still have to adapt the essay to the question.

oh look...I did know where to start!

phic

SligoBrewer wrote: »

However, the blatent learning of 3 page long essays on Desertification, or Urban Renewal or an essay on Kingship on Macbeth to regurgitate on the day is horrible, and dishonest, cheating not only my own mind but someone one else out of a college place.

I actually don't understand how you study if not by "blatent learning off"? Is that not what studying is? If on the day an essay came up on Kingship in Macbeth for example, are you planning on thinking the whole thing up on the spot? With the time constraints in the exam I don't see how thats possible?

Also you're not doing anyone out of a college place, everyones free to learn essays off if they wish, its not as though you have an unfair advantage!

SligoBrewer

phic wrote: »

I actually don't understand how you study if not by "blatent learning off"? Is that not what studying is? If on the day an essay came up on Kingship in Macbeth for example, are you planning on thinking the whole thing up on the spot? With the time constraints in the exam I don't see how thats possible?!

A quick brainstorm, followed with quotes and references to back up points made in the essay isn't hard or time intensive.

phic wrote: »

Also you're not doing anyone out of a college place, everyones free to learn essays off if they wish, its not as though you have an unfair advantage!

It ain't learning imo. College places shouldn't be given out an ability to learn off essays.

Denerick

deemark wrote: »

There are so many problems with these post, I don't know where to start!

1. It is suggesting that having a disability i.e. autism, is somehow cheating.
2. It is insulting to people with autism by describing them as 'freakish'.
2. I suspect that what you are talking about is people who have a photographic memory, not people who are autistic.
3. At the end of the day, learning off essays will not get you an A1, as you still have to adapt the essay to the question.

oh look...I did know where to start!

Oh God, political correctness is a horrid curse. I AM SORRY TO ALL POTENTIAL AUTISTIC READERS OF THIS THREAD!!!!!!

Piste

Even worse than it being insulting to suggest everyone with a good memory has autism, it's just downright incorrect. Also pretty laughable to say something like a photographic memory which is obviously a huge advantage is a "disability" (unless you see a murder or something gruesome)

rebel girl 15

SligoBrewer wrote: »

A quick brainstorm, followed with quotes and references to back up points made in the essay isn't hard or time intensive.

But how many teachers actually encourage this - for English it is an easier thing to do, what about other subjects?? Students find it much easier, and faster to have an essay learned off to be able to write it down.



It is not learning imo. College places shouldn't be given out an ability to learn off essays.


College places are given out on the basis of being able to remember parts of subjects, be it in whole chunks of text, ie an essay or quotes/facts. It is in essence a test of memory! You are tested on liguistic and logical intelligences for courses that need other intelligences, as well as those

Thats the way the system is, students find the easiest way to get do well in their subjects is to prepare answers and learn them off - I'd be surprised if you did not do something similiar for your oral exams.

Students will do it because it works for them, unlike you Sligo, some people will want to see the back of Shakespeare! Despite some people on here quite liking his work, many other people just want to know what to write down in order to get past an exam, to get into a college course which will have nothing to do with the present English course.

Its not the way that the syllabus was laid out, but it is the way that it is being approached. the fact is that you can take whatever approach you want, be it just learning off quotes or learning off a whole essay. It is not cheating, no matter what way you look at it. It is a method of learning off stuff that has to be put on a page in June.

Your method above works for people who are good at composing, other people are not, so they will learn off the essay.

As for the previous autistic remark, there is no joking about that - or the political correctness of it. It was a highly insulting remark by even implying it.

Denerick

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

As for the previous autistic remark, there is no joking about that - or the political correctness of it. It was a highly insulting remark by even implying it.

Oh for god sake... It was an off hand comparison for people with photographic memories. I have a first cousin who has Down Syndrome so don't even try the moral high ground game. I'm sure you have referred to unpleasant tasks as 'gay', without it being offensive to homosexuals, or called someone an 'arsehole' without implying they were walking around with an arse for a face!. Get over it!

rebel girl 15

Denerick wrote: »

Oh for god sake... It was an off hand comparison for people with photographic memories. I have a first cousin who has Down Syndrome so don't even try the moral high ground game. I'm sure you have referred to unpleasant tasks as 'gay', without it being offensive to homosexuals, or called someone an 'arsehole' without implying they were walking around with an arse for a face!. Get over it!

Actually I have not - I also have relations who have Down Syndrome, and I also volunteer with people who have intellectual disabilities. Thats why I was touchy on it - also I have quite a good photographic memory, but I'm not autistic!

rebel girl 15

The learning off of answers happens less for the composition in English, but more in paper 2 from my experience.

I did learn off full essays and answers for my Leaving, did it for English, Irish, Business and Geography. My Irish essay was one that I had prepared myself from notes that I got and learned off, about violence. I did not care as to whether anybody else was doing it, I was doing what I knew worked for me, what I knew would get me my college course. I was extremely glad to see the back of poetry and prois in Irish, and poetry and Shakespeare in English. TBH I didn't care what I had to learn off, I didn't want to have to understand it because I knew I wasn't going to need it in college! There are more important things for me to understand, though in Sligos case, English is what they want to do, so they would want to understand it.

For my exams, I looked over my answers, I also had the exam timing down to a tee, as well as knowing each paper inside out e.g. knowing what questions came up in what section, knowing exactly what marks went for what areas, how the marking was broken down. I had it down to an exact science! Would you call that cheating?

One of my friends failed his Summer English exam in 5th year, but he was of the opinion, what the hell do I need Shakespeare for if I want to become an engineer!!


I know a lot of my friends had answers learned off for subjects. i know that most of my college class learned off answers. It works for people, thats why they do it - it is not cheating. If you think it is not happening all over the country, that students are not learning off prepared answers then you are quite naiive. I call that being prepared, and nothing else

Fince

The leaving cert is basically a memory test.
i can only comment on the subjects i'm doing (maths, english, applied maths, DCG, accounting, physics).
in all of them your trying to REMEMBER how you've done the questions before, ergo if you can remember whole essays, you deserve to pass the test.

If the Dept. of Education wanted it to be different, they'd have to bring in some class of continuous assesment.