Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

FTA69

When did I say Unionism didn't have a right to exist? I said that Unionism is fundamentally undemocratic and rooted in supremacy, which it is.

Souljacker

FTA69 wrote: »

When did I say Unionism didn't have a right to exist? I said that Unionism is fundamentally undemocratic and rooted in supremacy, which it is.

Sorry I was under the presumption you believed sectarianism shouldn't exist.

'The reality is that Unionism implicitly and Loyalism explicitly as ideologies and the politicians that represent them are inherently founded upon sectarianism and concepts of social superiority.'

It's either that or you believe they (Unionism) have a right to pratice scterianism. You can't have your cake and eat it, so which is it?

Unionism is inherently founded upon sectarianism and has a right to exist

OR

Unionism is inherently founded upon secterianism and doesn't have a right to exit.

oscarBravo

FTA69 wrote: »

I said that Unionism is fundamentally undemocratic and rooted in supremacy, which it is.

Sounds like a bog-standard nationalist inferiority complex to me.

dlofnep

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sounds like a bog-standard nationalist inferiority complex to me.

Well it would for you, considering you're a unionist.

His statement is 100% correct.

The division of Ireland was not democratic. Unionism supported the undemocratic division of the country, and is certainly founded on undemocratic principles.

Unionism in the north upheld civil inequality, and therefore is a testament to it's supremacist views - whereby protestants were regarded as upper class and catholics as an inconvenience. Failing to accept these very basic truths is your failure to accept Unionism for what it is.

oscarBravo

dlofnep wrote: »

Well it would for you, considering you're a unionist.

If you would actually bother to read what people write instead of pulling a canned response from your list of pigeonholes, there's a faint danger you might actually respond with something worth reading.

I live in hope.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I have no idea what they have or haven't done to tackle sectarianism. I equally have no idea what nationalist politicians have or haven't done to tackle sectarianism. I'm curious what you feel unionists should be doing

Just maybe they might fully condemn the fact that a guy got kicked to death by a mob of Loyalists / Unionists / Guys in Rangers jerseys without trying to contextualise the attack

dlofnep

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you would actually bother to read what people write instead of pulling a canned response from your list of pigeonholes, there's a faint danger you might actually respond with something worth reading.

I live in hope.

I read what they wrote and I responded accordingly. I offered them rebuttals, did I not?

dlofnep

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just maybe they might fully condemn the fact that a guy got kicked to death by a mob of Loyalists / Unionists / Guys in Rangers jerseys without trying to contextualise the attack

Now there's an idea!

So how about it OscarBravo?

FTA69

Sorry I was under the presumption you believed sectarianism shouldn't exist.

'The reality is that Unionism implicitly and Loyalism explicitly as ideologies and the politicians that represent them are inherently founded upon sectarianism and concepts of social superiority.'

It's either that or you believe they (Unionism) have a right to pratice scterianism. You can't have your cake and eat it, so which is it?

Unionism is inherently founded upon sectarianism and has a right to exist

OR

Unionism is inherently founded upon secterianism and doesn't have a right to exit.

What a load of absolute balls. What I said was that Unionism is based on sectarianism, sectarianism is the raison d'etre of Unionism. Do I feel that people should be prohibited from believing Ireland should be a part of the United Kingdom? No I don't, but that doesn't mean that we should have to put with their anti-democratic sentiment and the violence which accompanies it.

That isn't a hard concept to grasp like.

OB,

Sounds like a bog-standard nationalist inferiority complex to me.

Yeah.

The fact of the matter however though, is that Unionism is a political manifestation of an ascendancy which sought to maintain economic and political hegemony in Ireland, and later the north of Ireland. To that effect they created a two-tier state in the north of this country, and were allowed to do so by successive British governments. That's fact. And that fact won't be altered by you suggesting I have an inferiority complex.

Terrontress

FTA69 wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that a DUP councillor stated on a radio interview that McIlveen would not go to heaven as he was a Catholic. Pure and utter, chest-beating bigotry. If an SDLP politician had made a similar statement he'd be out on his ear in a heartbeat. According to Anne Cadawallader, Unionists are twice as likely to be attacked within their own area while Nationalists are three times as likely to be attacked outside their own area. Sectarian attacks, whether co-ordinated or not are usually undertaken by Loyalists.

Some people portray the whole scenario as one as "sure they're both as bad as each other." The reality is that Unionism implicitly and Loyalism explicitly as ideologies and the politicians that represent them are inherently founded upon sectarianism and concepts of social superiority. Often this takes the form of the religious fundamentalism of the Free Presbyterians or the sheer thuggish bigotry of urban Loyalist paramilitarism. It is all based on a planter mentality rooted in fear and hatred of another people they view as beneath them. You'll see the same mindset in white South Africans or French Algerians.

The records show quite a different story about Paisley and the DUP.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/michaels-legacy-of-peace-one-year-after-his-murder-13439417.html?startindex=-1

I think it is well accepted that Paisley did sterling work for any Catholic or Nationalist constituents who approached him for help.

Nodin

Souljacker wrote: »

So just to be clear here you are arguing that unionism doesn't have a right to exist? How unsecterain of you.

'unionism' isn't a religon...just so you know.

dlofnep

Terrontress wrote: »

The records show quite a different story about Paisley and the DUP.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/michaels-legacy-of-peace-one-year-after-his-murder-13439417.html?startindex=-1

I think it is well accepted that Paisley did sterling work for any Catholic or Nationalist constituents who approached him for help.

Eh, Paisley Junior - Not Paisley.

SirHenryGrattan

How many Nationalists have been killed in this kind of attack since the GFA. And how many Unionists?

Terrontress

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh, Paisley Junior - Not Paisley.

Does it not show Unionist politicians, including the then leader of the more hard line Unionist party, expressing revulsion at a sectarian murder? Also, the head of the Free Ps. I think it's fairly unfair to say that those two organisations reacted to the sickening murder of an innocent schoolboy than the rest of us might. With revulsion, sympathy and sorrow.

dlofnep

Terrontress wrote: »

Does it not show Unionist politicians, including the then leader of the more hard line Unionist party, expressing revulsion at a sectarian murder? Also, the head of the Free Ps. I think it's fairly unfair to say that those two organisations reacted to the sickening murder of an innocent schoolboy than the rest of us might. With revulsion, sympathy and sorrow.

No it doesn't - He did it because he had to. It doesn't change Paisley Junior's sickening comments, or another DUP's attack on a group of youths who were collecting funds for their local GAA club using GAA jerseys - or their requests to ban Easter Lillies in workplaces, while endorsing Poppies. It doesn't change the consistent anti-gay agenda within Unionism, especially the DUP.

Unionist Politicians are petty and reactionary.

gurramok

Where is the outrage at this attack? (another man is seriously ill right now as a result of the mob)

Are the media in Britain and down here plastering this story over their news bulletins just like the Antrim soldier deaths and Craigavon policeman murder???

(Right now on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/default.stm, it is the 8th top story of the day :mad:)

You bet they won't as a civilian's life as a result of loyalist terrorism is worth less than a security force member's life.

dlofnep

If it was a unionist killed, you can be sure that it would be the prime story.. and the likes of OscarBravo would be on here telling us how even Nationalists are.

dlofnep

Ulster Unionist assembly member David McClarty said it was too early to say who was involved.

"We are in a situation here where we have to moderate our language and not go throwing blame where no proof has been given as to who was responsible for this incident.

Already trying to skew the blame.

irish_bob

serfboard wrote: »

This problem of sectarianism is not limited to NI.

When I lived in Scotland the pubs would regularly have signs up saying "No football colours allowed in the bar". A&E's in Glasgow would often have victims of sectarian beatings/stabbings in on a Friday/Saturday night. And this is the reason why, even to this day, Celtic and Rangers never play in Glasgow on the same day, unless they're playing each other.

It's very sad what has happened in this case. Hope they catch the b4stards responsible.

the scotts are the most sectarian people in the world

while working in australia about ten years ago , i was the victim of bulling in the workplace from a scott , the abuse was sectarian in nature , viscious

futurehope

Nodin wrote: »

...all of which was obviously at the forefront of the minds of the well plastered mob who decided to cause havoc after it was announced Rangers won.

They don't need to be at the forefront of their minds, they form the cultural setting in which communal conflict can occur.

Of course, they may be completely irrelevant, people get murdered all over The British Isles for a whole range of reasons and indeed none at all. In which case most, if not all the posts on this thread are completely irrelevant to what took place.

Mike 1972

How many Nationalists have been killed in this kind of attack since the GFA. And how many Unionists?

:rolleyes: To some people the opinions (if any) of a dead person (assuming these can even be determined accurately as opposed to jumping to conclusions) regarding the desirability of Northern Ireland remaining part of the United Kingdom as opposed to becoming part of a United Ireland (and whether the death in question took place before or after some arbitrary date in 1998) seem to matter a lot more than the actual circumstances of that persons death.

And to the rest of us they dont.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Of course, they may be completely irrelevant, people get murdered all over The British Isles for a whole range of reasons and indeed none at all. In which case most, if not all the posts on this thread are completely irrelevant to what took place.

But you can be sure that if it was a unionist who was murdered, you'd be the first to come on here and tell us about it.

FTR: Ireland is not a part of the British Isles. Try stick on topic. Thanks.

futurehope

FTA69 said:

Not to mention the fact that a DUP councillor stated on a radio interview that McIlveen would not go to heaven as he was a Catholic.

SO WHAT!!! The Catholic Church don't believe Protestants will go to heaven. Muslims don't believe Jews or Christians will go to heaven. That's what religions are like - THEY ARE EXCLUSIVIST. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Some people portray the whole scenario as one as "sure they're both as bad as each other." The reality is that Unionism implicitly and Loyalism explicitly as ideologies and the politicians that represent them are inherently founded upon sectarianism and concepts of social superiority.

As opposed to the scum who murdered thousands in the name of a POLITICAL philosophy, something freakish called Irish Republicanism - which in practise couldn't even live up to it's own bizarre ideology, carrying out horrific sectarian atrocities such as Kingsmill and Darkley. :rolleyes:

gurramok

futurehope wrote: »

As opposed to the scum who murdered thousands in the name of a POLITICAL philosophy, something freakish called Irish Republicanism - which in practise couldn't even live up to it's own bizarre ideology, carrying out horrific sectarian atrocities such as Kingsmill and Darkley. :rolleyes:

Do you or do you not condemn today's murder by loyalists without condition?

A Dub in Glasgo

irish_bob wrote: »

the scotts are the most sectarian people in the world

while working in australia about ten years ago , i was the victim of bulling in the workplace from a scott , the abuse was sectarian in nature , viscious

Some Scots are sectarian, not all

Mike 1972

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Some Scots are sectarian, not all

No Dub they all are.

Just like all Unionists (even the Gay ones) dont believe in Gay rights :rolleyes:

futurehope

FTA69 said:

As far as I know Republicans have continuously called for the establishment of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission,

Why do those who slaughtered ten unarmed Protestants at Kingsmill need any sort of commission to tell the truth? Why don't those who ordered this sectarian massacre just come forward and admit what they did and apologise to the families of the ten murdered innocents?

Many were, and bear in mind the Brits have been proven time after time to be complicit in torture of suspects.

Hilarious! Those who specialised most in the torture of suspects were Irish Republicans hunting 'touts'!

A bit like the Unionist aspiration to maintain the Union regardless of the wishes of the majority of the Irish people?

What the hell have the people of The Republic got to do with it? So if the people of The UK vote to bring The ROI back into The UK, then that should happen, regardless of the views of those who actually live in The Republic?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Again, lay the blame at the door of the Taigs. Not the fact that Unionism was built upon and sustained by sectarianism in Ireland.

I think you're talking about The Irish Republic there. :rolleyes:

FTA69

The records show quite a different story about Paisley and the DUP.

No it doesn't. The record shows that Ian Paisley has been involved in sectarian hatemongering ever since he threatened to lead a mob onto the Falls Road in order to tear down a tricolour flag. He also addressed a Loyalist rally in which he named the addresses of "Pope's Men" which were subsequently burned down by mobs. Do I need to dig out the quotes about Catholics "breeding like rabbits"? Paisley himself was involved in setting up no less than three armed organisations, one of which Ulster Resistance, actually imported tonnes of weapons into Ireland from South Africa. Paisley has as much blood on his hands as anyone else in this country.

I think it is well accepted that Paisley did sterling work for any Catholic or Nationalist constituents who approached him for help.

Except when DUP councillors announce on the airwaves that a 15 year old boy who was murdered by psychopaths won't go to heaven because he was a Catholic? Yeah, pure egalitarianism alright.

Futurehope,

SO WHAT!!! The Catholic Church don't believe Protestants will go to heaven. Muslims don't believe Jews or Christians will go to heaven. That's what religions are like - THEY ARE EXCLUSIVIST.

He was speaking in his capacity as a DUP councillor, not as a Protestant, and he wasn't even disowned by the party for his disgusting, inflammatory and hurtful comments. Try and cloud the issue with bullsh*t all you want, you'll only end up coming across as a bit silly.

upthedub

Loyalists scumbags is all anyone can call them !

Terrontress

dlofnep wrote: »

No it doesn't - He did it because he had to. It doesn't change Paisley Junior's sickening comments, or another DUP's attack on a group of youths who were collecting funds for their local GAA club using GAA jerseys - or their requests to ban Easter Lillies in workplaces, while endorsing Poppies. It doesn't change the consistent anti-gay agenda within Unionism, especially the DUP.

Unionist Politicians are petty and reactionary.

Firstly, you might argue that "he had to" make some denouncement but I think most people, including the McIlveen family feel that Paisley and the DUP went beyond their simple obligations as politicians and showed genuine empathy and offered support.

You have provided no link to the "sickening" comments by Ian Og so I cannot comment on them.

I don't want to praise the DUP, or any of its members, for behaving as any right minded person should in speaking out about a murder but think that in relation to the McIlveen murder, they have been misrepresented on this thread.

Gay rights? What has that to do with the topic at hand, i.e. the murder of an innocent in Coleraine based on his religion / the area he lived? Homosexuality was only legalised in ROI in 1993, some 26 years after the UK. Same-sex legal union is not allowed in ROI. Gay people are not allowed to adopt children. I think anti-gay attitudes are not confined to only one portion of the population on this island.