Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

SO WHAT!!! The Catholic Church don't believe Protestants will go to heaven. Muslims don't believe Jews or Christians will go to heaven. That's what religions are like - THEY ARE EXCLUSIVIST. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

"SO WHAT"? :rolleyes:

So you believe it is an appropriate comment to make, while the family could be listening to the show - to state that their beloved son who was murdered won't go to heaven because he is a catholic?

futurehope

dlofnep said:

You're kidding, right? Unless you can prove that it was a direct result of our policies, you don't have a leg to stand on.

I don't need to prove any sort of state compliance to prove a 'cold house' was created for Southern Protestants - although I can obviously point to The Irish Constitution under De Valera among other things. It is more often cultural aspects that matter far more than anything legal. Sorry pal the numbers speak for themselves -

11% Protestant population at partition - 2% now. WHERE DID ALL THOSE PROTESTANTS GO?

futurehope

FTA69 wrote: »

When did I say Unionism didn't have a right to exist? I said that Unionism is fundamentally undemocratic and rooted in supremacy, which it is.

In what way is Unionism undemocratic?

A Dub in Glasgo

futurehope wrote: »

WHERE DID ALL THOSE PROTESTANTS GO?

Across the border to the 'Protestant state for a Protestant people'?

futurehope

dlofnep said:

The division of Ireland was not democratic. Unionism supported the undemocratic division of the country, and is certainly founded on undemocratic principles.

In what way was The division of Ireland undemocratic?

Unionism in the north upheld civil inequality, and therefore is a testament to it's supremacist views - whereby protestants were regarded as upper class and catholics as an inconvenience.

What proof have you that any civil inequality in Ulster was due to supremacist views?

A Dub in Glasgo

futurehope wrote: »

In what way is Unionism undemocratic?

Refusing to recognise the will of the majority of people in Ireland. Creating a state with an in built majority and generally Gerrymandering said state to their advantage.

You see the above as examples of democracy?

futurehope

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just maybe they might fully condemn the fact that a guy got kicked to death by a mob of Loyalists / Unionists / Guys in Rangers jerseys without trying to contextualise the attack

I know what you mean - the people of The UK felt the same about Irish Nationalist politicians for thirty years.

Annoying isn't it?

dlofnep

Terrontress wrote: »

Gay rights? What has that to do with the topic at hand, i.e. the murder of an innocent in Coleraine based on his religion / the area he lived? Homosexuality was only legalised in ROI in 1993, some 26 years after the UK. Same-sex legal union is not allowed in ROI. Gay people are not allowed to adopt children. I think anti-gay attitudes are not confined to only one portion of the population on this island.

We were discussing sectarianism, and issues affecting - civil inequality included.

Regardless of when homosexuality was legalised - No group of people on this Island make statements against the gay community as disgusting as the DUP has.

They include

• Ian Paisley Junior referring to gay relationships as "immoral, offensive and obnoxious". In another interview he stated he was repulsed by the gay community, and hated what they did.
  
• DUP councillor Maurice Mills claiming that Hurricane Katrina was an act of God attacking those who practiced sodomy.
  
• Iris Robinson (Peter Robison's wife and DUP MP) offered to cure homosexuals through her psychiatrist. As if it was a disease.. She then went on to say later that "“There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children".
  
• Peter Robinson calling homosexuality an abomination.

I suppose this is reflected all across Ireland? :rolleyes:

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

11% Protestant population at partition - 2% now. WHERE DID ALL THOSE PROTESTANTS GO?

I asked you to prove that it was a result of the policies in the 26. I await proof. Until then, keep your conspiracy theories for the conspiracy theory forum.

futurehope wrote: »

In what way was The division of Ireland undemocratic?

The majority of the Irish people did not want division. The Irish government was threatened with immediate war if they did not accept a 26 county state. How is that democratic?

The majority of the people in Ireland would opt for Irish Unity, supporting the terms of the GFA in which it can be achieved peacefully.

All Polls ever taken in Britain have always shown support for Irish Unity over the north remaining in the Union in EVERY SINGLE POLL taken since the early 80's. The North remaining in the union isn't even the will of the people of the UK.

futurehope wrote: »

What proof have you that any civil inequality in Ulster was due to supremacist views?

Protestant state for a protestant people. How is that not supremacist?

futurehope

FTA69 said:

What a load of absolute balls. What I said was that Unionism is based on sectarianism, sectarianism is the raison d'etre of Unionism.

If sectarianism is the 'raison d'etre' of Unionism, how do you explain Catholic Unionists?

SirHenryGrattan

futurehope wrote: »

The failure of The ROI to apologise for the huge decline in The Protestant population since partition.

Er, let's put this one to bed. A total of 1 million left Hong Kong before the hand over of sovereignty to China. China is not apologizing. Right here in the UK Trevor Phillips has talked about "white flight" from ethnic suburbs across Britain. Labour is not apologizing. The Hong Kong expats and Hong Chinese left because of fear of the unknown. They had no idea whether China would restrict trade and seize capital. People leave heavily ethnic suburbs in Britain because the area no longer feels British or their understanding of British; “I feel like I am living in different country”. These reasons are perfectly valid but they do not constitute oppression or discrimination as in, I can’t get a job or I cannot express my political views or I cannot walk down the street safely because of who I am. The exodus of Southern Protestants took place between 1911 and 1928. There was a period around the War of Independence when Republicans carries out ethnic killings i.e. murdering Anglo Irish Protestants in reprisal for the murders of Catholics in Northern Ireland as well as killing what they considered spies and informers some of whom were also Anglo Irish. The Protestant population stabilized after that. There was never any state sponsored discrimination against Southern Protestants in the Republic after Independence.

Sleep tight.

futurehope

dlofnep said:

Unionist Politicians are petty and reactionary.

As opposed to SF politicians who claim a job working for The UK state was worth 3500 deaths?

FTA69

futurehope wrote: »

FTA69 said:
If sectarianism is the 'raison d'etre' of Unionism, how do you explain Catholic Unionists?

There'll always be some compliant natives, that's a situation replicated in countless colonial situations.

In what way is Unionism undemocratic?

Ever since the Home Rule crisis it has asserted its supremacist position in Ireland and flouted the wishes of the vast majority of the people of Ireland. Even a cursory look at the way it ran the northern state demonstrates the anti-democratic nature of Irish Unionism.

futurehope

dlofnep wrote: »

But you can be sure that if it was a unionist who was murdered, you'd be the first to come on here and tell us about it.

FTR: Ireland is not a part of the British Isles. Try stick on topic. Thanks.

FTR - I would prefer it if you would now use the phrase British Ulster when referring to Northern Ireland, as I prefer it that way - thanking you in advance.

rant_and_rave

Northern Ireland will never work. It's just another Bosnia. What we have is a long term ceasefire. Joint authority is the only option. Let the ROI and UK share sovereignty AND the bills. Give the Irish Derry. We keep Belfast. The new border runs down the middle. Then we just ethnic cleanse both sides. Job done.

FTA69

futurehope wrote: »

WHERE DID ALL THOSE PROTESTANTS GO?

Tom Barry killed them all. That's why there are still loads landed Protestants in West Cork as well as two thriving Protestant private schools in Cork.

rant_and_rave

Well NI is run by us now with a lot of input from the ROI. So Unionist opinions don't really count and won't unless they find themselves holding the balance of power in Westminster.

Grudaire

We're already at the boarder debate - didn't beat around the bush long lads:

Since we can't seem to keep it to a discussion I often wonder why I bother - oh well *dives headfirst into the fray*:

Lads the policy should be live and let live. There should be a 100% condemnation of the killing - by all, and we can believe whatever we want to about the afterlife (or lack thereof). Until we have both sides abiding by these simple standards this kind of discraceful happens will be part of life up North.

The fact of the matter is persons such as futurehope do nothing to promote a more inclusive and peaceful society. Providing us users of a more nationalistic bias to vent our anger on what is little more than a troll to be honest. This thread was set up to question practices of Unionist politicians, who can be needlessly controversial at times.

I would like us to move from the complete divide that currently exists to condemning events like this together. Sinn Féin are a large part of the problem as well - without a doubt. We need to stop the monopolies that organisations have on each side of the story (Just look at FAIR's website to see the other side of the story (as much as the site stinks of Unionism (a scent Futurehope I'm sure likes, different strokes eh?) it does have a point about the murders that did occur to the unionist community as well)).

Stop the madness lads, the rights and wrongs of the partition of the Island (choice words that don't fully convey my opinions I assure you) has nothing to do with this. Neither has any mad theorys on why there is a Protestant minority here. It's all irrelevant and divisive.

Things that are divisive, and should not be said by politicians:
- support of murder
- religious beliefs at all
'Why?' you might ask - well basically because these people represent everyone in Northern Ireland, NOT their own little community. In effect it legitimises racism(bigotry or whatever they call it today), which is very very wrong. It legitimises murder which is wrong.

An attitude that "There's only so much politicians can do, they can't stop loyalist hardliners who are never going to listen to them." is not acceptable. They can - even if it means locking them all up they most certainly can stop this mindless open and dangerous racism.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

FTR - I would prefer it if you would now use the phrase British Ulster when referring to Northern Ireland, as I prefer it that way - thanking you in advance.

Given that the majority of the people in Ulster identify themselves as Irish, I think I'll refer to it just as Ulster, or Cúige Uladh. If you don't mind of course. .

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Mike 1972 wrote: »

No Dub they all are.

Just like all Unionists (even the Gay ones) dont believe in Gay rights :rolleyes:

I don't have a sectarian bone in my body

I hope these guys are caught and feel the full force of the law they are scum

futurehope

FTA69 said:

No it doesn't. The record shows that Ian Paisley has been involved in sectarian hatemongering

Do you condemn the 'hate mongering' of leading Republicans that led to the slaughter of so many at places like Darkley, Kingsmill and Le Mons?

He was speaking in his capacity as a DUP councillor, not as a Protestant, and he wasn't even disowned by the party for his disgusting, inflammatory and hurtful comments. 

Again, SO WHAT? If his religious opinion is that Catholics go to hell then he is entitled to it? What is your problem?

Try and cloud the issue with bullsh*t all you want, you'll only end up coming across as a bit silly.

I think coming from you, that is quite amusing.

futurehope

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Refusing to recognise the will of the majority of people in Ireland. Creating a state with an in built majority and generally Gerrymandering said state to their advantage.

You see the above as examples of democracy?

I assume you're some sort of comic - but then that would generally apply to any Irish Nationalist who lives in The UK.

Perhaps you can explain to me where it says that self determination could only be applied to the island of Ireland as a whole? :rolleyes:

Erin Go Brath

I hope they catch the vile creatures who commited this crime. A gang of 30 or so drunken hoodlums killing a 49 year old man just going about his business. What a bunch of cowardly animals! Yet the media is barely interested, and of course the unionist politicans give the faintest condemnation they can possibly get away with, and where were the police when this gang was roaming the place?

When a couple of British soldiers in a heavily fortified army base got killed, there was a never ending media barrage about what cowardly sum-human scum would do such a thing.

I guess a loyalist mob killing some middle aged catholic guy in the north isn't really newsworthy enough.

futurehope

dlofnep wrote: »

We were discussing sectarianism, and issues affecting - civil inequality included.

Regardless of when homosexuality was legalised - No group of people on this Island make statements against the gay community as disgusting as the DUP has.

They include

• Ian Paisley Junior referring to gay relationships as "immoral, offensive and obnoxious". In another interview he stated he was repulsed by the gay community, and hated what they did.
  
• DUP councillor Maurice Mills claiming that Hurricane Katrina was an act of God attacking those who practiced sodomy.
  
• Iris Robinson (Peter Robison's wife and DUP MP) offered to cure homosexuals through her psychiatrist. As if it was a disease.. She then went on to say later that "“There can be no viler act, apart from homosexuality and sodomy, than sexually abusing innocent children".
  
• Peter Robinson calling homosexuality an abomination.

I suppose this is reflected all across Ireland? :rolleyes:

Oh no!!! The end is nigh!!! Terrible!!!

Far worse than the 'nonce nuns' and the 'buggery brothers' in that 'free state' paradise.


:rolleyes:

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Perhaps you can explain to me where it says that self determination could only be applied to the island of Ireland as a whole? :rolleyes:

And why couldn't it? When exactly were the people asked what they wanted? And under your skewed terms - why is Derry & Omagh and the likes still under British rule when they are overwhelmingly nationalist?

I await your reply.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Oh no!!! The end is nigh!!! Terrible!!!

Far worse than the 'nonce nuns' and the 'buggery brothers' in that 'free state' paradise.


:rolleyes:

Yeah, great response there. You're a walking cliché. :rolleyes:

I'm glad to see that you think those comments are acceptable, and that it's ok to state on national radio that a murdered child isn't going to go to heaven because he's a catholic.

Grudaire

This has nothing to do with the OP's question, and has been done a whole lot of times

futurehope wrote: »

I assume you're some sort of comic - but then that would generally apply to any Irish Nationalist who lives in The UK.

Perhaps you can explain to me where it says that self determination could only be applied to the island of Ireland as a whole? :rolleyes:

Here we go again:

You never really dealt with my point last time (pre shut down thread)

Le feiceáil anseo/To be found here

Since you seem not to be grasping logic like I do:
- A majority in Ulster want a united Ireland (32 county Republic)
- However: A Majority in the 6 counties want to keep the union (Thus the situation we have today)
- This is where we get into splitting stuff up even more A Majority in Derry want a united Ireland (27 county Republic)
- But sure Derry city has a majority of unionists (I don't think it does - but I'm taking poetic licence here) (27 county republic - less Derry city)
- But the 'Free Derry' area wants to be a united Ireland (27 county Republic - less the unionist half of Derry)

dlofnep

Derry City is nationalist btw

Dudess

FTA69 wrote: »

I said that Unionism is fundamentally undemocratic and rooted in supremacy, which it is.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sounds like a bog-standard nationalist inferiority complex to me.

I think that's utterly disingenuous of you oscarBravo. Why the revisionism among a considerable number of members here? To suggest unionism as an ideology isn't underpinned by sectarianism and superiority and triumphalism is really laughable frankly. Yes I know there are plenty of decent, reasonable, moderate unionists, but that does not negate the fact that one of the original tenets of unionism was the exerting of supremacy over the fenians.

jank

RIP to the man beaten to death by this mob.
Hope they are caught and all sides of the community condems them.