Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

thebman

I don't think mainland Britain actually gives a crap one way or another about NI. They do care about a British soldier or British Police Officer being killed. It makes for a good headline since people actually give a crap about those people offering service for their country and don't want to see them killed.

People die every day all over Britain so one person in NI isn't more significant than another anywhere else just because of the groups involved.

Its harsh but the truth IMO and explains the lack of media coverage of this event. I'm just disgusted that this type of thing is still going on and that society never seems to learn.

Grudaire

dlofnep wrote: »

Derry City is nationalist btw

I think you said that last time as well

@thebman: The difference is that a lot of it is truly avoidable up in the 6-counties - THAT's the difference

2-D Man

Why is this in the political section?

This poor man was beaten to death by a bunch of sectarian thugs.

It wasn't politically motivated.

Souljacker

FTA69 wrote: »

What a load of absolute balls. What I said was that Unionism is based on sectarianism, sectarianism is the raison d'etre of Unionism. Do I feel that people should be prohibited from believing Ireland should be a part of the United Kingdom? No I don't, but that doesn't mean that we should have to put with their anti-democratic sentiment and the violence which accompanies it.

That isn't a hard concept to grasp like.

‘Sectarianism is the raison d’etre of Unionism’ What exactly am I not able to grasp?

I asked a perfectly straight forward question and I think in your little sectarian rant above you answered my question perfectly. Well done you!

The desire for the retention of the union is the reason unionism exists, just like the desire for a united Ireland is the reason Republicanism exists. It’s fundamental to each political stance and each position must assume the other inferior by their very nature. This is the life blood of parties like the DUP and Sinn Fein.

Nodin wrote: »

'unionism' isn't a religon...just so you know.

And you're telling me this because? Are you trying to picking me up on semantics? because that really would be pathetic.

SirHenryGrattan wrote: »

How many Nationalists have been killed in this kind of attack since the GFA. And how many Unionists?

Do you think it’s some sort of competition or something? What the hell does it matter?? Are you trying to argue the Republican paramilitaries are justified in murdering people just so long as the Loyalist paramilitaries have killed more???

The reality is a father has lost his life because of a lynch mob of cowards. What quite a few of the republican posters on this thread seem to forget is that the vast majority of people in NI, unionists included abhor what these cowardly hate filled, small minded people just as the vast majority of people here where disgusted by the cowardly sectarian hate filled, small minded people who murdered unarmed army engineers.

But some people who don’t give 2 f**ks about this man or his family murdered is such a brutal way. They just want to use his death to post their sectarian drivel to attack and implicate a whole section of people in NI who legitimately consider themselves unionists, because they're unionist. And yes Nodin I consider those sentiments sectarian.

It's as bad as people like Willie Fraizer implicating all nationalists for the actions of the provos.

thebman

Cliste wrote: »

I think you said that last time as well

@thebman: The difference is that a lot of it is truly avoidable up in the 6-counties - THAT's the difference

I know its avoidable but my point was that it is the reason the media won't cover it. People in Britain don't care about NI. Most deaths are avoidable period if people acted responsibly.

Soldie

How tiring, I see the same old faces digging their trenches yet again. In the future, perhaps we should simply edit the initial content of older threads to save people from posting, all the replies are the same anyway.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

How tiring, I see the same old faces digging their trenches yet again. In the future, perhaps we should simply edit the initial content of older threads to save people from posting, all the replies are the same anyway.

Great contribution to the thread.

I see we have the same old faces adding nothing to the thread, but having a poke for the craic of it anyways. :rolleyes:

2-D Man

From the looks of some of the newspaper reports coming out this morning it would appear that the hooligan scum/Unionist murder gang the UDA were responsible.

Apparently some of those arrested are known to be members or ceonnected to the group in some way.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Have heard locally they were chanting U-D-U-D-A while they were bludgeoning the two guys. Obviously not Gospel but frightening if true.

Seven guys are being held

http://www.thisisdorset.co.uk/westerngazette/news/nationalnews/held-sectarian-mob-killing/article-1020414-detail/article.html

Can't believe that isn't reported on BBC site. What's worse is the killing isn't even a main headline on the UK section of the BBC site

Apparantly these are currently more important headlines:


Cameron pledges shake-up of power
Johnson urging electoral reform
Cameron reopens hopeful list
Cameron leads payback
Rehab industry 'facing clean up'
Young face 'tough job prospects'
New motorbike test is under fire
MP pair to step down at election
MP urges probe into HBOS loans
Oxford poet resigns over vote row
'Delight' at EU fish quota moves
Over 50s 'needing to work longer'

I really hope they aren't chosen by someone and its designated by how many people read them. If its the former I'm gonna avoid the BBC website in future.

Still nothing about the second man who's been assaulted so hopefully he's pulling through.

I'm not trying to backseat mod but there's already far too many posts to report - perhaps something this serious could be further discussed somewhat on-topic without resorting to bickering about loyalists being worse than republicans. That's been done so many times.

I'm hoping this will put pressure on government to take immediate action about disbanding loyalist groups and force the bigger groups to decommission. I can see the Real/Cont IRA taking advantage of the tensions this is causing and the 12th is only just around the corner.

Terrontress

2-D Man wrote: »

From the looks of some of the newspaper reports coming out this morning it would appear that the hooligan scum/Unionist murder gang the UDA were responsible.

Apparently some of those arrested are known to be members or ceonnected to the group in some way.

Just as the dissidents who recently murdered the soldiers and that policeman were connected to SF?

Terrontress

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Have heard locally they were chanting U-D-U-D-A while they were bludgeoning the two guys. Obviously not Gospel but frightening if true.

Seven guys are being held

http://www.thisisdorset.co.uk/westerngazette/news/nationalnews/held-sectarian-mob-killing/article-1020414-detail/article.html

Can't believe that isn't reported on BBC site. What's worse is the killing isn't even a main headline on the UK section of the BBC site

Apparantly these are currently more important headlines:


Cameron pledges shake-up of power
Johnson urging electoral reform
Cameron reopens hopeful list
Cameron leads payback
Rehab industry 'facing clean up'
Young face 'tough job prospects'
New motorbike test is under fire
MP pair to step down at election
MP urges probe into HBOS loans
Oxford poet resigns over vote row
'Delight' at EU fish quota moves
Over 50s 'needing to work longer'

I really hope they aren't chosen by someone and its designated by how many people read them. If its the former I'm gonna avoid the BBC website in future.

Still nothing about the second man who's been assaulted so hopefully he's pulling through.

I'm not trying to backseat mod but there's already far too many posts to report - perhaps something this serious could be further discussed somewhat on-topic without resorting to bickering about loyalists being worse than republicans. That's been done so many times.

I'm hoping this will put pressure on government to take immediate action about disbanding loyalist groups and force the bigger groups to decommission. I can see the Real/Cont IRA taking advantage of the tensions this is causing and the 12th is only just around the corner.

There are teenage kids being murdered on the streets of London at a rate of at least one per week and they don't get top billing on the BBC news website either.

The reason why the recent killings by the dissidents got such press was due to the potential of destabilising the peace process in the North.

As further news emerged that those arrested have or have had strong links with a party in UK government furthered the news comments.

If some former Scottish National Party candidates murdered a cop in an armed robbery, you can bet it would make the news.

Deedsie

Disgusting act. Should be condemned to the same extent as the Murder in Newry and the two soldiers in the barracks.

Celtic and Rangers FFS what a stupid reason to result in the murder of an innocent man.

Is sectarianism illegal? I mean can you be prosecuted for it? Perhaps 6 months in jail for it would stop it.

Nodin

futurehope wrote: »

Why (......)there.

futurehope wrote: »

I assume you're some sort of comic - but then that would generally apply to any Irish Nationalist who lives in The UK.

futurehope wrote: »

Oh no!!! The end is nigh!!! Terrible!!!
Far worse than the 'nonce nuns' and the 'buggery brothers' in that 'free state' paradise.

Off again, are we?

Souljacker wrote:

And you're telling me this because? Are you trying to picking me up on semantics? because that really would be pathetic.

You implied another poster was sectarian for their rejection of unionism. Unionism is not a religon. Rejection of it is not sectarian, nor is it intrinsically linked to a rejection of the religon of the majority of its followers in NI.

Deedsie wrote:

Celtic and Rangers FFS what a stupid reason to result in the murder of an innocent man.

Indeed.

FTA69

Souljacker wrote: »

I asked a perfectly straight forward question and I think in your little sectarian rant above you answered my question perfectly. Well done you!

Sectarian rant? I point out that Unionism as a political ideology is underpinned by supremacy and has its roots in bigotry and that equates with me hating Prods? You're a gas man.

The desire for the retention of the union is the reason unionism exists

Indeed. That's fairly obvious like, its just a shame you're incapable of expanding your statement into the reasons why they desired the union. The reason being it allowed them to establish a political, social and economic hegemony in Ireland and later in the northern state. While some, more plural strands of neo-unionism may be emerging the bible thumping, primordial philosophy of Loyalists and the DUP is still very much evident.

Although apparently that's not the case. I'm just sectarian and I hate Prods.

futurehope

There is no difference between hating someone because of their political views as opposed to hating someone because of their religious views.

There is no difference between hating a political ideology and hating a religious ideology.

There is no difference between killing someone because of their political views and killing someone because of their religious views.

Political bigotry is not superior to religious bigotry.

FTA69

First of all I don't "hate" anybody.

There is no difference between hating a political ideology and hating a religious ideology.

So for instance if I decided I didn't particularly like neo-fascism or the BNP, I would be a "bigot" in the same sense as if I didn't like Buddhists? :rolleyes:

We're reaching new levels of hilarity now.

gurramok

futurehope wrote: »

There is no difference between hating someone because of their political views as opposed to hating someone because of their religious views.

There is no difference between hating a political ideology and hating a religious ideology.

There is no difference between killing someone because of their political views and killing someone because of their religious views.

Political bigotry is not superior to religious bigotry.

Do you condemn without condition this murder of an innocent Catholic by the UDA?
Oh and by the way, they beat his Protestant wife and a pregnant neighbour as well, all for Ulster of course.:rolleyes:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eykfcwmhcwql/rss2/

jimmmy

futurehope wrote: »

11% Protestant population at partition - 2% now. WHERE DID ALL THOSE PROTESTANTS GO?

Part of the reason was the attitudes in Ireland, where at best it was a cold house for Protestants and other minorities...see post below.

jimmmy

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm just sectarian and I hate Prods.

Its obvious. You have also called unionism supremist, anti-democratic etc...if that was the case why do quite a number of Catholics in N.I. wish to remain part of the UK ?

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

Do you condemn without condition this murder of an innocent Catholic by the UDA?

Everyone has condemned the murder by the drunken mob ; including politicians on all sides.

gurramok

jimmmy wrote: »

Everyone has condemned the murder by the drunken mob ; including politicians on all sides.

I was asking futurehope who defelcted discussion into a border issue rather than focus on the murder itself.

Do you condemn it and condemn the beating of his Protestant wife as condemnation seems to be thin on the ground in this thread.

jimmmy

gurramok wrote: »

Do you condemn it

Of course I do. Everyone has the right to life, and to live free from intimidation etc.

oscarBravo

dlofnep wrote: »

I read what they wrote and I responded accordingly. I offered them rebuttals, did I not?

You responded to my post #28 by calling me a unionist again. That doesn't suggest to me that you have any interest in even contemplating the validity of a point of view that doesn't perfectly coincide with your Republican fundamentalism.

dlofnep wrote: »

Now there's an idea!

So how about it OscarBravo?

I think it's an excellent idea. I think it should be adopted, unconditionally, by everyone on both sides of the mind-numbingly pointless divide in Northern Ireland. I think everytime a murdering scumbag - whether he's a loyalist murdering scumbag or a republican murdering scumbag - takes the life of another human being, that every politician on both sides should call it for what it is - the act of a murdering scumbag - and stop right there without trying to provide any kind of political context or historical justification. Every time someone says "this person was murdered because of blah blah the other side's intransigence blah blah" it just entrenches the bigotry - on both sides.

dlofnep wrote: »

If it was a unionist killed, you can be sure that it would be the prime story.. and the likes of OscarBravo would be on here telling us how even Nationalists are.

Let me spell this out for you, as clearly as I know how.

I don't think nationalists are evil.
I don't think republicans are evil.
I don't think unionists are evil.
I don't think loyalists are evil.
I think loyalists who murder people are murdering scum.
I think unionists who murder people are murdering scum.
I think republicans who murder people are murdering scum.
I think nationalists who murder people are murdering scum.
I think Irish people who murder people are murdering scum.
I think English people who murder people are murdering scum.
I think Japanese people who murder people are murdering scum.
I think little green men from Alpha Centauri who murder people are murdering scum.

I also think that people who attempt to justify any murder - whether it's unionists trying to blame this murder on people putting up tricolours, or nationalists claiming that security forces are legitimate targets - are morally complicit in those and subsequent murders.

I'm sure you'll find some way to interpret this that proves I'm a unionist, but that says a hell of a lot more about you than me.

Dudess wrote: »

I think that's utterly disingenuous of you oscarBravo. Why the revisionism among a considerable number of members here? To suggest unionism as an ideology isn't underpinned by sectarianism and superiority and triumphalism is really laughable frankly. Yes I know there are plenty of decent, reasonable, moderate unionists, but that does not negate the fact that one of the original tenets of unionism was the exerting of supremacy over the fenians.

And one of the original tenets of Irish Republicanism was that blood sacrifice is a necessary, wholesome and healing thing.

Decent, reasonable and moderate unionists are the norm, as are decent, reasonable and moderate nationalists. To describe a decent, reasonable and moderate political ideology as being underpinned by superiority and triumphalism is to guarantee the entrenchment of the divisions that just lead to more and more bloodshed.

dlofnep

jimmmy wrote: »

Everyone has condemned the murder by the drunken mob ; including politicians on all sides.

I see you've yet to condemn the UDA. Do you condemn the UDA for their acts? Drunken mob isn't going to cut it.

FTA69

jimmmy wrote: »

Its obvious.

Except for the fact that half of my family are Church of Ireland and my auld fella is a border Protestant. Perhaps I should go and shoot myself in the name of Republican sectarianism? Not that I wish to get caught up in religion, I think it's all a load of b*llocks.

You have also called unionism supremist, anti-democratic etc

It is. That's the historical reason for Unionism, to maintain the privilege of an ascendancy. The whole "Ulster Unionism" lark only came about in 1920 when Carson and Craig realised they couldn't keep the whole of Ireland out of Home Rule so they would retreat to Ulster, the area of critical mass.

dlofnep

OscarBravo - Then why do you always come head-first into Republican threads attacking Republicans, but came into this thread with questioning someone for posing a question a specific way (even though there was merit in their logic), instead of condemning the act (which you could be sure you'd have done if it was a nationalist attack)?

You see - You are a unionist. And not because of this thread, but because of your actions in related threads over the past few months. Don't think I've just come to this conclusion over one of two posts made by you. Deep down inside, you're a closet-unionist. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions have demonstrated a much greater sense of sympathy/empathy towards unionism than republicanism. Take it for what it's worth, or continue to deny it. I don't care. Your political views are of no importance to me.

Thank you for condemning the act by the way - It only took you, what.. 8 pages to do so?

oscarBravo

dlofnep wrote: »

You see - You are a unionist.

You're a funny, funny guy.

jimmmy

dlofnep wrote: »

I see you've yet to condemn the UDA. Do you condemn the UDA for their acts? Drunken mob isn't going to cut it.

I have only made a couple of posts and never even mentioned the UDA. Of course I condemn the UDA for any murders or illegial acts they were ever involved in, just I would condemn the IRA or UVF or INLA for the same sort of activity. I always condemned all paramilitary and / or terrorist or illegial activity. I also condemn all drunken mobs everywhere who beat up, murder, or whatever. Whoever it was, I condemn fully. Lets hope whoever committed the murder is brought to justice, the same as all murderers.

dlofnep

Good man Jimmmy.

FTA69

oscarBravo wrote: »

To describe a decent, reasonable and moderate political ideology as being underpinned by superiority and triumphalism is to guarantee the entrenchment of the divisions that just lead to more and more bloodshed.

Not really. It's simply the truth. The moderate Unionism to which you are alluding has always been intrinsically linked to sectarian violence. Whether that be the state organisations like the B Specials or the UDR or the paramilitaries like the UVF, Third Force and Ulster Resistance, of which both Paisley and Trimble were leading members. Similarly I remember in the not too distant past where Trimble and Paisley swore blind they'd never talk to terrorists but had no problem sitting on the Loyalist Commission which included the UVF and UDA.