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Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

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    #152
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Personally I think it's an absolute disgrace for a 49 year old man to attack a group of 40 happy-go-lucky Rangers supporters harmlessly celebrating the outcome of the match. Some witnesses told the Irish Indo that the football fans were so terrified of him that they had to carry baseball bats and pickaxe handles in self defence.

    The very least the PSNI can do is charge him with assault in abstentia so that his victims at least can claim some kind of compensation later. I certainly hope he and others like him learn a lesson from this.


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    #153
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    Well done for bringing the thread taking the usual route of dragging Nationalists/Republicans into it.

    We've had ten years of the GFA, part of this process was to deal with SECTARIANISM, which has blighted loyalist communities in the North over the years. Imo, sectarianism is one of the biggest problems in the north. I believe there are community workers in these areas trying to improve things. But should there be a lot more done by the political representatives of these areas? Why is sectarianism still such an issue in loyalist areas?


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    #154
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I have no idea what they have or haven't done to tackle sectarianism. I equally have no idea what nationalist politicians have or haven't done to tackle sectarianism.

    I await evidence for sectarianism in the nationalist community that is comparable to what exists in the unionist community. There is no comparison. Unionists, more specifically loyalists, view the conflict in much more religious terms. Anti-Catholicism is far more prevalent in that community than anti-Protestantism is in the nationalist or republican community. It is not a mimetic relationship. Burning children alive or beating men to death on the street precisely because they are Catholic is acceptable because there remains a strand in the loyalist community which views Catholics as subhuman. It is a continuation of the colonial tradition where murdering an Irish person was not possible in English law in Ireland because the Irish were not deemed to have the same human value. This time it's their Catholicism rather than their "wilde Irishe" status, and now it's illegal.

    It is time to be honest about this. Try reading Anti-Catholicism in Northern Ireland: the mote in the beam by John Brewer for some solid academic research on differences between the two communities in terms of sectarianism.


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    #155
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Can'tseeme wrote: »
    Why is sectarianism still such an issue in loyalist areas?
    I'll take a wild guess at this one.
    Is it because the Loyalist people are sectarian by nature and vote in sectarian politicians to represent their bitter twisted viewpoints?


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    #156
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Anti-Catholicism in Northern Ireland: the mote in the beam by John Brewer is not on Google Books but this discussion of the differences between both communities in terms of sectarianism came up:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Sign2i-CGOMC&pg=PA103&dq=Anti-Catholicism+in+Northern+Ireland&ei=x_8bSsD7Lp_EzASix7HzDA


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    #157
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    When you can demonstrate the same ability to condemn mudering scum on both sides of the divide as unequivocally as that, you'll earn my respect.

    It's taken you 10 pages of a thread to get to this point. You didn't mention your remorse at the start. Instead you had a go at somebody for identifying a possible lack of leadership on the issue of sectarianism in Loyalist communities in Coleraine, saying it is divisive (the boys in the lab are still working on this gem).

    It was a valid question the OP posed. You decided to attack him for it. When you show a little bit of even handedness and show you can think about the victims on both sides with some equality perhaps you will earn people's respect. I say this somebody who a: dislikes Sinn Féin and b: has no problem with any other posters' points taking up either side in this thread.


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    #158
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    I only found out about this because over on front page of The Irish Times at the moment there is a terrible picture of Kevin McDaid's wife with bruises on her eyes. She apparently was beaten up while trying to defend her man.

    Barbarians.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/


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    #159
    Can'tseeme
    Registered Users Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Can'tseeme


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I only found out about this because over on front page of The Irish Times at the moment there is a terrible picture of Kevin McDaid's wife with bruises on her eyes. She apparently was beaten up while trying to defend her man.

    Barbarians.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/

    Horrific. My heart goes out to her.


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    #160
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I await evidence for sectarianism in the nationalist community that is comparable to what exists in the unionist community.
    There are good and bad people on both sides. If you think otherwise you have been indoctrinated. What happened in Coleraine was horiffic, but there is eveidence to suggest all the hatred was never on just one side ...Kingsmill, Darkly etc etc are all proof of that. The thugs who murdered in Coleraine are thugs and I hope they are caught and rot in jail.


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    #161
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Hagar wrote: »
    I'll take a wild guess at this one.
    Is it because the Loyalist people are sectarian by nature and vote in sectarian politicians to represent their bitter twisted viewpoints?

    I've never heard of a Catholic loyalist up north but there have been a few Protestant republicans, surprise surprise.


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    #162
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    There are more than a few Catholic unionists around too i.e. people who want the N of Ireland to remain part of the UK. Some even south of the border. Long live democracy. I respect anyones right to think / vote as they want.


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    #163
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    It's taken you 10 pages of a thread to get to this point. You didn't mention your remorse at the start.
    Neither did you. I think it's reasonable to deduce from this that you're a loyalist paramilitary and a Rangers supporter.

    I don't know why I even read threads like this, never mind participate in them. All they do is (a) raise my blood pressure, and (b) cement ever more firmly my conviction that I never, ever, ever want that basket case of a province in my country.


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    #164
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    jimmmy wrote: »
    At least you made an honest attempt at answering the question. As regards Catholics wanting N.I. to remain part of the UK, more than a few people fall in to the category. I am not saying it is a majority of Catholics, but its far from the 0% you seem to suggest. I am not sure what point you are making about " protestants send their children to Catholic schools " or not...the point is unionism to many people means a preference to remaining part of the UK. Historically there was a thought that being part of the "free state" was Rome Rule....not a fear without foundation given much of what happened in Ireland in early / mid 20 century Ireland.....even in the media in recent days details of the cover ups only relatively recently are coming to light. 11% does not drop to 2 or 3% without good reasons.

    And I have given those reasons. Many protestants worked in the British Army and many moved to NI or Britain to marry or some may have preferred to live there for political reasons. The people who moved because they worked with the British Army would apply in any situation once the British Army withdrew.

    Even the most prominent Unionist historian agrees that Protestants were in general treated well in the Free State.

    Bringing this in as an argument to balance out the sectarian atrocity that occured in Coleraine is out of order. All sectarian murder is repulsive and none of it can be excused.


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    #165
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    It appears that the PSNI were present and did absolutely nothing to stop this man being murdered. Questions will need to be answered.

    This is a picture of his wife's face.

    widow_97025t.jpg
    Added his widow who suffered severe bruising to her face and body and has a large wound on her head had to have a brain scan: “They called themselves the UDA.

    “I came across to help and they beat me where they beat him. My neighbour had to step in to save me. She was pregnant and they beat her too. She shouted ‘I am pregnant’ and they didn’t care.

    As far as the PSNI goes.
    Ryan McDaid, one of the dead man’s sons, claimed that police stood by and did nothing during the attack. “The police sat and watched as Dad died, they never moved,” he said.

    “There were four police officers in a car and they sat and watched from Pates Lane. They never moved, never came, never helped.

    “Before I rang the police on my mobile I was shouting at them [the police in the waiting patrol car]. They didn’t want to know, they were 100 yards away. They saw the whole thing and did nothing.

    “He died in my arms, dad was staggering up the road, he had gone out to help Damien. Damien was getting beaten and I rang the police on my mobile. Four or five times I rang 999. They said they were coming.


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    #166
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    It's taken you 10 pages of a thread to get to this point. You didn't mention your remorse at the start.

    Why does he need to express his remorse from the off? He is not responsible, does not represent anyone responsible and as with any normal human, I'd take his revulsion as a given.


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    #167
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't know why I even read threads like this, never mind participate in them. All they do is (a) raise my blood pressure, and (b) cement ever more firmly my conviction that I never, ever, ever want that basket case of a province in my country.

    The reason you dont want that province in your country is because you believe it to be "British" as you have implied many times on related threads.

    To denounce NI and all the people in it as "basket" cases is simplistic and insulting. When you have an endemic sectarian society it is usually the people at the lower margins who carry out the murder. It is up to those who have power (including all civilians who can) to try and weed out sectarianism from that society and from future societies.

    As Irish people from the republic we should have a huge interest in this succeeding. Your Ostrich like comments smacks of ignorance of Irish history.

    This type of large gang murder has been a recurring theme for over 200 years in Ulster. Contrary to all hopes the sectarianism that drives this has not gone away. On the contrary it is festering.


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    #168
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Can'tseeme wrote: »
    Well done for bringing the thread taking the usual route of dragging Nationalists/Republicans into it.

    We've had ten years of the GFA, part of this process was to deal with SECTARIANISM, which has blighted loyalist communities in the North over the years. Imo, sectarianism is one of the biggest problems in the north. I believe there are community workers in these areas trying to improve things. But should there be a lot more done by the political representatives of these areas? Why is sectarianism still such an issue in loyalist areas?

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'sectarianism'. The conflict in 'The North' was over national identity and whether Ulster was part of The UK or part of Ireland. Given the continued presence within Ulster of political parties whose stated goal is to drag Ulster's Unionists into a United Ireland against their will, it is inevitable that some Unionists will feel resentment against The Nationalist community that supports these parties, including one party (SF) that has amongst it's membership convicted IRA terrorists, including those found guilty of murder.

    The recent murders of two soldiers and a police officer by militant Republicans have also strained community relationships.

    Community relations are also not helped by organisations such as The GAA naming cups after Republican terrorists belonging to organisations such as those that carried out sectarian atrocities targeted at innocent Protestants such as at Kingsmill, Darkley and La Mon, to name only a few.

    It would also help community relations if Nationalists would recognise that religious organisations have the right to parade anywhere within The UK, including Portadown.

    Should these and similar issues be addressed, then I would predict a massive improvement in cross-community relationships.

    I hope this can happen for the good of all who live in British Ulster.


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    #169
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    T runner wrote: »
    The reason you dont want that province in your country is because you believe it to be "British" as you have implied many times on related threads.
    It's part of the UK. That's not a question of belief, but of fact. And I'll welcome it into my country when its inhabitants start to demonstrate some form of empathy towards each other.
    To denounce NI and all the people in it as "basket" cases is simplistic and insulting. When you have an endemic sectarian society it is usually the people at the lower margins who carry out the murder. It is up to those who have power (including all civilians who can) to try and weed out sectarianism from that society and from future societies.
    ...but it's only up to those who have power on each side to try to weed out sectarianism from that side, apparently. Which is the idea I took issue with at the start.
    As Irish people from the republic we should have a huge interest in this succeeding. Your Ostrich like comments smacks of ignorance of Irish history.
    I have an interest in it succeeding, only insofar as murdering scum stop murdering ordinary decent human beings. As for Irish history - with which I'm all too familiar - if we took a fraction of the energy we waste on the past and invested it in the future, we might be a lot better off.


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    #170
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Rebelheart said:
    I await evidence for sectarianism in the nationalist community that is comparable to what exists in the unionist community. There is no comparison. Unionists, more specifically loyalists, view the conflict in much more religious terms. Anti-Catholicism is far more prevalent in that community than anti-Protestantism is in the nationalist or republican community.

    Well that's fascinating Rebelheart. I've news for you - if you see your father's brains blown out over the kitchen wall, it doesn't matter what his killers motivation is - religious, political, criminal, psychopathic, or otherwise - he's still dead.
    It is not a mimetic relationship. Burning children alive or beating men to death on the street precisely because they are Catholic is acceptable because there remains a strand in the loyalist community which views Catholics as subhuman.

    As opposed to slaughtering 10 Protestant workers at Kingsmill precisely because they're Protestant? Or murdering 3 Protestant elders during a church service precisely because they're Protestants? You really do have a funny view of life don't you?
    It is a continuation of the colonial tradition where murdering an Irish person was not possible in English law in Ireland because the Irish were not deemed to have the same human value. This time it's their Catholicism rather than their "wilde Irishe" status, and now it's illegal.

    It's illegal is it? Holy cow! I'd have thought reading some of the posts on here that murdering Catholics was actively encouraged by The UK state.:rolleyes:

    By the way Rebelheart - how do you feel about the sort of scum who murder soldiers and policemen - or do you not regard that as murder, let alone 'sectarian'?


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    #171
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I see nobody has attempted to comment on the PSNI watching a man dieing and not doing one iota to stop it.


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    #172
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    futurehope wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'sectarianism'.
    The conflict in 'The North' was over national identity and whether Ulster was part of The UK or part of Ireland.


    The conflict in the North Eastern part of Ireland has been going on for over 400 years and is sectarian in nature. The fact that you say otherwise may mean you are ignorant as Irish history is not taught in your schools or it may be for some other reason also.

    Given the continued presence within Ulster of political parties whose stated goal is to drag Ulster's Unionists into a United Ireland against their will, it is inevitable that some Unionists will feel resentment against The Nationalist community that supports these parties, including one party (SF) that has amongst it's membership convicted IRA terrorists, including those found guilty of murder.

    But SF and others have signed up to the various agreements which guarantee consent. What are you atlking about? Making more excuses for these scum, eh?

    It would also help community relations if Nationalists would recognise that religious organisations have the right to parade anywhere within The UK, including Portadown.

    Yes and instead of parading down the street in a triumphalist sectarian march your boys are now forced to adhoc parading and murdering in catholic areas.

    It is the British state that doesnt recognise it, and rightly so.
    Should these and similar issues be addressed, then I would predict a massive improvement in cross-community relationships.

    Stop condoning murder
    I hope this can happen for the good of all who live in British Ulster.

    More loyalist antagonism. The same antagonism that drives men to enter estates and murder innocent people only because they come from a different religion to you.

    Hey MODs do you not think this posters use of the loyalist phrase "British Ulster" is deliberately inciteful in view of the fact that this thread is about the murder of an innocent by loyalists? Lets see some even handedness here!!!!!!


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    #173
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I only found out about this because over on front page of The Irish Times at the moment there is a terrible picture of Kevin McDaid's wife with bruises on her eyes. She apparently was beaten up while trying to defend her man.

    Barbarians.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/

    Have you any 'close ups' of the two soldiers and the policeman recently murdered by Irish Nationalists?

    Or any words from their families?


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    #174
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    gurramok wrote: »
    I've never heard of a Catholic loyalist up north but there have been a few Protestant republicans, surprise surprise.

    There's far more Catholics in Ulster support The Union, than Protestants in Ulster oppose it.

    Surprise, surprise.


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    #175
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I see nobody has attempted to comment on the PSNI watching a man dieing and not doing one iota to stop it.
    I'm sure Nuala O'Loan will have plenty to say about those allegations, in due course.


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    #176
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I see nobody has attempted to comment on the PSNI watching a man dieing and not doing one iota to stop it.

    Those policemen should be investigated and jailed if this is true.
    If true, It is more proof that the bad old days have not gone. Sickening


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    #177
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Neither did you.

    I only got involved at page 9 and it was clear I had sympathy for the victim. It is clear some people were only interested in silly pointscoring.


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    #178
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    T runner wrote: »
    Stop condoning murder
    Stop accusing people of condoning murder.
    Hey MODs do you not think this posters use of the loyalist phrase "British Ulster" is deliberately inciteful in view of the fact that this thread is about the murder of an innocent by loyalists? Lets see some even handedness here!!!!!!
    If you have a problem with a post, report it. For the record: no, I don't see a problem with it.

    But if you want, I'll start banning people for using any phrases that any other person might find offensive in some way - and I'll be very even-handed about it.

    Also, I've told you that if you have a problem with moderation, to take it up on the Help Desk. Despite your vague threats earlier, you don't appear to have done so. If you complain about moderation here again - even obliquely - I'll ban you.

    Back on topic.


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    #179
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Jesus1222 wrote: »
    I only got involved at page 9 and it was clear I had sympathy for the victim. It is clear some people were only interested in silly pointscoring.
    I apologise for having the temerity to inject an alternative viewpoint into an all-unionists-are-bastards rantfest. Clearly entrenched and immovable viewpoints are the way to lasting peace.


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    #180
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    T runner said:
    The conflict in the North Eastern part of Ireland has been going on for over 400 years and is sectarian in nature. The fact that you say otherwise may mean you are ignorant as Irish history is not taught in your schools or it may be for some other reason also.

    I'm glad you accept that Catholic sectarianism has been rampant for 400 years - 1641 was a particular low point for these bigots I believe.
    It is the British state that doesnt recognise it, and rightly so.

    So you applaud The British Government for it's even handed approach?
    More loyalist antagonism. The same antagonism that drives men to enter estates and murder innocent people only because they come from a different religion to you.

    What drives men to murder soldiers and policemen and commit atrocities like Darkley where Protestants where murdered by Irish Republicans whilst singing hyms?

    I can still hear that tape ringing in my ears.


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    #181
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    T runner wrote: »
    Those policemen should be investigated and jailed if this is true.
    If true, It is more proof that the bad old days have not gone. Sickening

    We knew the 'bad old days' had not gone when Republicans murdered two soldiers and a policeman. Sickening.


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