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Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

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    #182
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    T runner wrote: »
    Those policemen should be investigated and jailed if this is true.
    If true, It is more proof that the bad old days have not gone. Sickening

    In fairness if there was 40 people in the mob and two police officers they were probably waiting for back up. We'd probably just have 2 more deaths or badly beaten people if they had gone in on their own.


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    #183
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    As the wagon-circling is beginning, this thread is heading rapidly towards its sell-by date.


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    #184
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    For once I agree with Oscar.

    In summary before the thread is closed;

    Loyalists murder innocent man, and claim to be members of the UDA to said man's protestant wife. They then beat the holy bejaysus out of her and her pregnant friend.

    All this happens while the PSNI look on and do absolutely nothing while the son pleads for help - which obviously brings the state of the PSNI into question.

    A bit of banter ensues.

    All in a day's work for boards.ie/politics

    I think that about covers it.


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    #185
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    futurehope wrote: »
    Well that's fascinating Rebelheart. I've news for you - if you see your father's brains blown out over the kitchen wall, it doesn't matter what his killers motivation is - religious, political, criminal, psychopathic, or otherwise - he's still dead.

    And that has what, precisely, to do with my point?
    futurehope wrote: »
    By the way Rebelheart - how do you feel about the sort of scum who murder soldiers and policemen - or do you not regard that as murder, let alone 'sectarian'?

    I've always condemned murders of Irish soldiers by British mercenaries. How dare you imply otherwise. Indeed, I'm not exactly a big fan of the latter when they do the same to other peoples either. I trust this clarifies matters.


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    #186
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I apologise for having the temerity to inject an alternative viewpoint into an all-unionists-are-bastards rantfest. Clearly entrenched and immovable viewpoints are the way to lasting peace.

    Expressing some sadness at the murder of an innocent man by Loyalists/Rangers fans is not the same as engaging in an all-unionists-are-bastards rantfest. In fact, doing so while arguing against these invisible ranters is probably not a bad idea.


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    #187
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    dlofnep wrote: »
    All this happens while the PSNI look on and do absolutely nothing while the son pleads for help - which obviously brings the state of the PSNI into question.

    I think the PSNI issue deserves proper debate. It is wrong to just assume they were sitting by doing nothing when they were most likely waiting for back up.

    Would it have happened differently if it was in the south? Would the gardai have lept in to save the day?


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    #188
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    thebman wrote: »
    I think the PSNI issue deserves proper debate. It is wrong to just assume they were sitting by doing nothing when they were most likely waiting for back up.

    It is not wrong to assume - They were not doing anything. Waiting for backup while a man is being murdered? What sort of nonsense is that. They are paid to protect, and should have intervened.

    It is their job to protect communities. A man was being kicked to death, and died as a result of their failure to stop the assault.

    If the Gardaí saw some lad being kicked to death, you can be sure that they would do whatever they could to stop it.

    So - Let's debate the issue. The man's son witnessed 4 PSNI members in the area who sat back and watched his father be murdered. They made no attempts to stop it. What exactly is there to debate?


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    #189
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    thebman wrote: »
    I think the PSNI issue deserves proper debate. It is wrong to just assume they were sitting by doing nothing when they were most likely waiting for back up.

    Would it have happened differently if it was in the south? Would the gardai have lept in to save the day?
    Well the PSNI are a heavily armed police force, they should have had no trouble stopping a man being kicked to death. The rules for the discharge of police weapons specifically cover the situation where a life is in immediate danger. They did nothing. Well that's not quite true, they were accessories through inaction.
    As for what the Gardaí might have done in a similar situation I'm not 100% sure what unarmed men could have done in that situation but I think they would have made some effort. I would rather put my trust in the Gardaí.


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    #190
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    What exactly is there to debate?
    Nothing, I guess. I don't even understand why there's a police ombudsman in Northern Ireland. Clearly it's possible to determine the full facts of any situation from a single unsubstantiated account.


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    #191
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't even understand why there's a police ombudsman in Northern Ireland.
    Neither do I, any half decent painter's apprentice with a can of whitewash could do the job just a well.


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    #192
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Nothing, I guess. I don't even understand why there's a police ombudsman in Northern Ireland. Clearly it's possible to determine the full facts of any situation from a single unsubstantiated account.

    You want accountability from a police-force which stood back and watched a man being kicked to death, according to his son?

    It hurts you to accept that the PSNI might have allowed an innocent man to die.


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    #193
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Hagar wrote: »
    Neither do I, any half decent painter's apprentice with a can of whitewash could do the job just a well.
    Oops, I forgot - Nuala O'Loan doesn't recite Sinn Féin mantras, so she's a unionist.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You want accountability from a police-force which stood back and watched a man being kicked to death, according to his son?
    You don't?
    It hurts you to accept that the PSNI might have allowed an innocent man to die.
    Yes, I'd hate to think that were the case. I'll wait for an independent finding, taking all sides into account, then I'll pass judgement.

    It hurts you to even contemplate the idea that there might be another side to the story, doesn't it?


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    #194
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You don't?

    Of course I do - But whether anything is done about it is another thing.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It hurts you to even contemplate the idea that there might be another side to the story, doesn't it?

    I'll trust a man who watched his father die over a shady police force, riddled in corruption.


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    #195
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Hagar wrote: »
    Well the PSNI are a heavily armed police force, they should have had no trouble stopping a man being kicked to death. The rules for the discharge of police weapons specifically cover the situation where a life is in immediate danger. They did nothing. Well that's not quite true, they were accessories through inaction.
    As for what the Gardaí might have done in a similar situation I'm not 100% sure what unarmed men could have done in that situation but I think they would have made some effort. I would rather put my trust in the Gardaí.

    Just because they are armed does not mean they have the right to use arms on a crowd of people whenever they want.

    There are rules and procedures they must follow. What are the rules for this situation? Where they broken? Maybe they should have engaged but we might just have more blood on our hands and then we'd be talking about a very different incident and they'd still be in trouble I'd bet and they'd probably still have been rushed, guns taken off them and we might have dead police officers on our hands too. Its not an easy situation to say that they are guilty by inaction. It isn't that black and white, not by a long way.

    I don't think the Gardai would have acted differently in the situation although it would be interesting to hear what their procedure is in the above situation when they are outnumbered and would be putting themselves in extraordinary danger.


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    #196
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    So, do you feel it was ok for them to sit back while a man was being murdered? Is that your vision of appropiate policing?

    And - If they can't use force to protect someone from having their head stomped in - when exactly can they? They are more than happy to use physical force against Republicans without any just cause but can't to protect a man from being butchered like an animal?


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    #197
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Of course I do - But whether anything is done about it is another thing.
    In your ideal world, would the officers in question be suspended? Fired? Locked up? Executed? Tortured? On the say-so of a single distressed witness, without any further investigation, or even asking them their side of the story?
    I'll trust a man who watched his father die over a shady police force, riddled in corruption.
    I'd rather trust an independent ombudsman tasked with ascertaining all the relevant facts and weighing them up.

    It doesn't have the visceral satisfaction of a kangaroo court followed by a lynching, I'll grant you.


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    #198
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In your ideal world, would the officers in question be suspended? Fired? Locked up? Executed? Tortured? On the say-so of a single distressed witness, without any further investigation, or even asking them their side of the story? I'd rather trust an independent ombudsman tasked with ascertaining all the relevant facts and weighing them up.

    By all means, I would like to see accountability and a fair system of questioning - But faith in the PSNI from the nationalist communities is not very high. Why do you think this is? I would love to see a really impartial and just policing system in the North - but it's not there yet. 4 PSNI officers watching a man being murdered doesn't exactly help their case.

    Are you suggesting that the man's son is lieing?


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    #199
    Highsider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭Highsider


    Scumbags. That is all


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    #200
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So, do you feel it was ok for them to sit back while a man was being murdered? Is that your vision of appropiate policing?

    And - If they can't use force to protect someone from having their head stomped in - when exactly can they? They are more than happy to use physical force against Republicans without any just cause but can't to protect a man from being butchered like an animal?

    Well you don't even know if they could clearly see that going on.

    I'd rather wait until we had the full facts before we declare that the police are corrupt and acted inappropriately.

    Your very quick to jump to that conclusion IMO.


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    #201
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Oops, I forgot - Nuala O'Loan doesn't recite Sinn Féin mantras, so she's a unionist.
    Neither do I, and I didn't accuse anybody of being a Unionist, bad cops and untrustworthy public servants, certainly, unionists, not in my post.


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    #202
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    dlofnep wrote: »
    By all means, I would like to see accountability and a fair system of questioning - But faith in the PSNI from the nationalist communities is not very high. Why do you think this is? I would love to see a really impartial and just policing system in the North - but it's not there yet. 4 PSNI officers watching a man being murdered doesn't exactly help their case.

    Are you suggesting that the man's son is lieing?

    Nobody is saying he is lying, he could be mistaken or it could be crappy procedures that stopped the officers going in that are going to need reform.

    We just don't know but you seem to have made up your mind.


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    #203
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    thebman wrote: »
    Well you don't even know if they could clearly see that going on.

    I'd rather wait until we had the full facts before we declare that the police are corrupt and acted inappropriately.

    Your very quick to jump to that conclusion IMO.

    Well let's take an eye witness report then, shall we?
    Ryan McDaid, one of the dead man’s sons, claimed that police stood by and did nothing during the attack. “The police sat and watched as Dad died, they never moved,” he said.

    “There were four police officers in a car and they sat and watched from Pates Lane. They never moved, never came, never helped.

    “Before I rang the police on my mobile I was shouting at them [the police in the waiting patrol car]. They didn’t want to know, they were 100 yards away. They saw the whole thing and did nothing.

    “He died in my arms, dad was staggering up the road, he had gone out to help Damien. Damien was getting beaten and I rang the police on my mobile. Four or five times I rang 999. They said they were coming.

    Hmmm?


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    #204
    allin-king
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭allin-king


    I hope some sort of Republican unofficial squad is set up in Coleraine to protect Catholics as the PSNI are clearly not going to help, considering they stood by and watched a man being beaten to death. Personally I'd love a few Republicans to catch the little mob trying to attck someone else;)


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    #205
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    thebman wrote: »
    Nobody is saying he is lying, he could be mistaken or it could be crappy procedures that stopped the officers going in that are going to need reform.

    We just don't know but you seem to have made up your mind.

    Oh he must be mistaken, is he? What sort of procedures could be put in place that would not allow PSNI officers to PREVENT MURDER?


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    #206
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    By all means, I would like to see accountability and a fair system of questioning...
    Why don't you believe the ombudsman will give this?
    ...But faith in the PSNI from the nationalist communities is not very high. Why do you think this is?
    Historical inertia, for the most part. There's a percentage of nationalists that refuse to acknowledge that anything has changed.

    The irony of expecting them to risk their lives to help a nationalist, while constantly berating them at every turn, appears to be lost on you.
    Are you suggesting that the man's son is lieing?
    Are you suggesting that there's no possibility that there are any other aspects to the story? Would you be completely comfortable with sacking the officers in question on the basis of what you know?

    Do you even know why the concept of a police ombudsman exists?


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    #207
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    allin-king wrote: »
    I hope some sort of Republican unofficial squad is set up in Coleraine to protect Catholics as the PSNI are clearly not going to help...
    They could call it the IRA, or something. They'd need to be well armed. They'd probably need explosives, just in case they need to protect Catholics in Coleraine by blowing up shopping centres in England.

    I can't see any flaws in your brilliant scheme.


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    #208
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    oscarBravo, what people object to is the way there is a bunch of wannabe Conor Cruise O'Briens who regularly ridicule/sneer at even moderate republican thinking on the Politics forum. I don't think you're a unionist and I certainly don't subscribe to the nonsensical notions such as "Boards is unionist", "all the mods are unionists", "republicans are silenced on Boards" :rolleyes: (usually that crap is spouted by people who are pretty blatant supporters of provo violence - and anyone who celebrates same here deserves to get permabanned). I think I know where you stand - you'd rather there wouldn't be a united Ireland because of the conflict this could lead to, and I'd be inclined to agree. My heart wants a united Ireland but my head doesn't.

    But, I don't know... It's as if, in an effort to show how progressive we are down here, how much we've moved on etc, every type of nationalism/moderate republicanism has to be dismissed, even equated to supporting the IRA - it appears to have become the "right on" thing to do... including by people who'd be appalled by Israel, despite the major parallels between there and Northern Ireland (ok, things have improved immeasurably but while there's moving on, which I'd support, I have no time for the revisionist culture that has gained impetus in recent years down here). And then what goes hand in hand with that is pretty much lickarsery of even hardcore unionists. And if people are condemning of same, the usual "look at what the IRA did" is trotted out, as if there is some sort of altruistic allegiance to unionists.
    It's dismaying that people are so willing to forget the utter vileness of the hegemony in the North, how there is a disproportionate condemnation of republican paramilitarism over loyalist paramilitarism... it's something you'd expect from the likes of the DUP, but by Irish people... I'm not usually concerned with Irishness but I don't think it's unreasonable to consider this something of a betrayal to nationalists in the North.
    It's possible to subscribe to some aspects of republican ideology and abhor the violence. I despise the IRA and Sinn Féin (if Adams and McGuinness even just admitted to their links with the provos I might feel less animosity towards them, but until then, I will have absolutely zero time for them). I despise anti Englishness, people who harp on moronically about "west Brits" etc (I've been the recipient of quite the abusive personal messages in relation to same).

    Yet I've been sneered at on this forum as if I'm an IRA apologist - because of course anyone who believes catholics were treated like **** and things were disgustingly unjust in the North for decades and decades... is a would-be terrorist. :rolleyes: It's pathetic. What makes me laugh is, despite all these concessions for even hardline unionists, to them, the Irish are the enemy - sympathetic to their cause or not.

    And while I've no time for SF, I will still concede at least they're not as grotesquely bigoted (dissenters and scumbag ra-head supporters aside) as some unionist parties (and I don't include the PUP or now disbanded UDP) yet to say that here, you'll get rubbished for "not moving on"...


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    #209
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Hagar wrote: »
    Neither do I, and I didn't accuse anybody of being a Unionist, bad cops and untrustworthy public servants, certainly, unionists, not in my post.
    What's your problem with Nuala O'Loan?


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    #210
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Well let's take an eye witness report then, shall we?

    Hmmm?

    He sounds emotional which is understandable. He could be exaggerating the distance, the view the police had etc... or he could genuinely believed that they were that close but they weren't because he was out of his mind because of what was happening.

    All of that would be completely understandable and again they could have sat there because procedure prevents them from getting involved without sufficient back up or they feared for their lives or that they would only make the situation worse if they got out and opened fire and more people would be hurt.

    You don't know what happened, you can't know what happened so we'll have to wait until we have more facts. I'd like to see CCTV footage of the event if it is available.


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    #211
    allin-king
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭allin-king


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They could call it the IRA, or something. They'd need to be well armed. They'd probably need explosives, just in case they need to protect Catholics in Coleraine by blowing up shopping centres in England.

    I can't see any flaws in your brilliant scheme.

    As opposed to your flawless PSNI and formerly RUC, sure you said yourself in a previous post why would they help a Catholic while he's being beaten to death. I personally think a Republican unofficial squad would be more effecient in protecting Catholic people in Coleraine, surely you must agree with me here? (Never said anything about the IRA BTW).


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