Man Beaten To Death by Loyalist Mob

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote: »

What's your problem with Nuala O'Loan?

I don't trust her. Is there a law somewhere that says I have to? Am I guilty of an offence for thinking that politicians often have agendas that are at variance to what the public believe they are supposed to be doing?

dlofnep

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why don't you believe the ombudsman will give this? Historical inertia, for the most part. There's a percentage of nationalists that refuse to acknowledge that anything has changed.

Some elements have changed, some remain the same. Have you actually been to the North to a nationalist community to see how nationalists have been treated under the PSNI?

oscarBravo wrote: »

The irony of expecting them to risk their lives to help a nationalist, while constantly berating them at every turn, appears to be lost on you.

Where does it state he was a nationalist? It said he was a catholic, his wife was protestant. Even if he was a nationalist - it is their job to protect the said person. I don't berate them at every turn. Infact, this is the first thread I have ever discussed the PSNI AFAIA.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you suggesting that there's no possibility that there are any other aspects to the story? Would you be completely comfortable with sacking the officers in question on the basis of what you know?

If the allegations are true, then they should be not only fired but sent to prison. I'm curious as to why you would doubt the word of this man who watched his father die. Did he just make it up for the craic? Do you accept the possibility of it being true?

If I have any sort of negative views of the PSNI, it is because of my own accounts with them and the treatment I have seen them give to nationalists. The fact that policing & justice is still not devolved means that there is no real accountability for the force.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Do you even know why the concept of a police ombudsman exists?

I do - It doesn't mean that the ombudsman, or the PSNI will offer real accountability and in the past, they have proven this. Although, I doubt you'd know any of this sitting in the comfort of your chair in Mayo.

oscarBravo

allin-king wrote: »

As opposed to your flawless PSNI and formerly RUC, sure you said yourself in a previous post why would they help a Catholic while he's being beaten to death.

No, I didn't. If you have to resort to misquoting people to try to make a point, you don't have a point worth making.

I personally think a Republican unofficial squad would be more effecient in protecting Catholic people in Coleraine, surely you must agree with me here? (Never said anything about the IRA BTW).

Jesus. The mind boggles.

Hagar wrote: »

I don't trust her. Is there a law somewhere that says I have to? Am I guilty of an offence for thinking that politicians often have agendas that are at variance to what the public believe they are supposed to be doing?

She's not a politician. She's an independent adjudicator. What has she done to make you believe that she has such an agenda?

You obliquely accused her of whitewashing earlier. Why?

dlofnep wrote: »

Some elements have changed, some remain the same. Have you actually been to the North to a nationalist community to see how nationalists have been treated under the PSNI?

Yes, I have. I don't remember any complaints.

What do you propose? Disband the entire force? Recruit a new force, barring anyone who's ever been a member of the force in the past, including the current Catholic members?

Just how much ground has to be conceded before republicans will begrudgingly concede that there has been positive change?

If the allegations are true, then they should be not only fired but sent to prison.

How do we determine the truth of the allegations? Who do you trust to do that?

I'm curious as to why you would doubt the word of this man who watched his father die. Did he just make it up for the craic? Do you accept the possibility of it being true?

Of course. Do you accept the possibility that there's another side to the story?

If I have any sort of negative views of the PSNI, it is because of my own accounts with them and the treatment I have seen them give to nationalists. The fact that policing & justice is still not devolved means that there is no real accountability for the force.

Of course there's accountability. What the hell do you think the ombudsman's job is?

I do - It doesn't mean that the ombudsman, or the PSNI will offer real accountability and in the past, they have proven this. Although, I doubt you'd know any of this sitting in the comfort of your chair in Mayo.

So nobody can have an opinion or know anything about Northern Ireland unless they live there?

How unbelievably arrogant.

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote: »

She's not a politician. She's an independent adjudicator. What has she done to make you believe that she has such an agenda?

You obliquely accused her of whitewashing earlier. Why?

Yes, I have. I don't remember any complaints.

What do you propose? Disband the entire force? Recruit a new force, barring anyone who's ever been a member of the force in the past, including the current Catholic members?

Just how much ground has to be conceded before republicans will begrudgingly concede that there has been positive change? How do we determine the truth of the allegations? Who do you trust to do that? Of course. Do you accept the possibility that there's another side to the story? Of course there's accountability. What the hell do you think the ombudsman's job is? So nobody can have an opinion or know anything about Northern Ireland unless they live there?

How unbelievably arrogant.

She is a political appointee. That means she suits the needs of the people that appointed her not necessarily the needs of those she is supposed to be protecting.

Nothing oblique about it at all.

The rest of your ideas are quite good but I don't think the Unionists will go for them.

There are of course two sides to every story, some day we will hear the truth, not soon but someday.

dlofnep

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yes, I have. I don't remember any complaints.

Up surveying nationalists on their dealings with the PSNI, were you?

oscarBravo wrote: »

What do you propose? Disband the entire force? Recruit a new force, barring anyone who's ever been a member of the force in the past, including the current Catholic members?

Devolution of policing & justice for one, as promised.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Just how much ground has to be conceded before republicans will begrudgingly concede that there has been positive change?

Of course there has been change - But there are still bad elements within the PSNI, and it still has alot of work. The fact that you do not accept this leads me to believe that you are undeniably naive in regards to the issue.

oscarBravo wrote: »

How do we determine the truth of the allegations? Who do you trust to do that?

The man who watched his father die, opposed to the 4 PSNI officers who sat back and did nothing. Instead of debating the issue - you're doing everything in your power to pretend it didn't happen.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course. Do you accept the possibility that there's another side to the story?

No, it sounds pretty convincing to me, unless the lad alter his statement.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course there's accountability. What the hell do you think the ombudsman's job is?

Oh, you've experienced it - have you?

oscarBravo wrote: »

So nobody can have an opinion or know anything about Northern Ireland unless they live there?

Anyone can have an opinion on anything - But unless you've experienced the ongoing BS that occurs; Then you're not really in a position to have any weight behind your opinion.

You sit back on your arse, in the boglands of Mayo and comment on a situation that you've a little understanding of.

oscarBravo wrote: »

How unbelievably arrogant.

Opposed to the benevolent and modest OscarBravo?

dlofnep

Hagar wrote: »

some day we will hear the truth, not soon but someday.

You might want to tell the families of Bogside that They are still waiting for the truth.. It's only been what, a few decades?

allin-king

Look, I'm actually sick of the bias on this forum, Catholic man gets beaten to death by bunch of Loyalist Scumbags and its all "British Ulster" and "IRA scumbags".

If a Protestant Man was to be beaten to death by Republican scumbags, we'd actually be hearing the exact same stuff.

Many times I've seen on this forum the if you're a tad nationalist "you're a celtic jersey wearing scumbag" . Oh and to Futurehope I'd rather if you call the IRA Freedom Fighters(Like Peter Mandelson did), and not terrorists. Thank you

futurehope

Dudess said:

It's dismaying that people are so willing to forget the utter vileness of the hegemony in the North,

Well at least the 'vile' Unionists didn't cover up the rape of their own children.

Yet I've been sneered at on this forum as if I'm an IRA apologist - because of course anyone who believes catholics were treated like **** and things were disgustingly unjust in the North for decades and decades... is a would-be terrorist.

A lot of those who ranted and raved about things being 'disgustingly unjust in the North' actually were terrorists.

:rolleyes: It's pathetic. What makes me laugh is, despite all these concessions for even hardline unionists, to them, the Irish are the enemy - sympathetic to their cause or not.

No, The Irish are not the enemy of Unionism - only those who seek to tear Unionists from their own country - by hook or by crook.

And while I've no time for SF, I will still concede at least they're not as grotesquely bigoted (dissenters and scumbag ra-head supporters aside) as some unionist parties

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

futurehope

allin-king wrote: »

I hope some sort of Republican unofficial squad is set up in Coleraine to protect Catholics as the PSNI are clearly not going to help, considering they stood by and watched a man being beaten to death. Personally I'd love a few Republicans to catch the little mob trying to attck someone else;)

Are you going to join this group yourself? Or are you a 'free state we won't stand idly by' type?

Jesus1222

futurehope wrote: »

Dudess said:Well at least the 'vile' Unionists didn't cover up the rape of their own children.

Disgusting sectarian stereotyping, no place for it here imo.

Jesus1222

futurehope wrote: »

Dudess said:
A lot of those who ranted and raved about things being 'disgustingly unjust in the North' actually were terrorists.

The majority were ordinary decent citizens and included some Protestants, unfortunately Unionists moved to end any possibility of improved conditions for Catholics and launched campaigns against them. Those who organised those campaigns threatened violence if the Catholics received civil rights and often acted on it. That's before we get to Bloody Sunday.

Dudess

Oh my god, what a pathetic comeback.

futurehope wrote: »

Well at least the 'vile' Unionists didn't cover up the rape of their own children.

I mention the hegemony in the North (which I notice you don't disagree with) and you respond with something completely unrelated. Brilliant.

A lot of those who ranted and raved about things being 'disgustingly unjust in the North' actually were terrorists.

And? Of what relevance is that? Did I SAY that wasn't the case? Or are you seriously suggesting that because terrorists have ranted and raved about things being unjust in the North, that means I doing the same thing is kinda supporting terrorism - in which case, LOL.
And so what if terrorists have ranted and raved about these injustices? That doesn't make them any less of a reality. Do you deny these injustices or something?

No, The Irish are not the enemy of Unionism - only those who seek to tear Unionists from their own country - by hook or by crook.

We are to hardline unionists/loyalists.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Please advise me as to what Sinn Féin's bigoted policies are which mirror those of the DUP/UUP. Thank you.

Nice selective quoting by the way...

futurehope

allin-king wrote: »

Oh and to Futurehope I'd rather if you call the IRA Freedom Fighters(Like Peter Mandelson did), and not terrorists. Thank you

You regard The IRA as freedom fighters? Freedom to do what - smuggle fuel and work as touts or crown ministers for The UK state?

amacachi

futurehope wrote: »

Well at least the 'vile' Unionists didn't cover up the rape of their own children.

Yup, exact same thing.:rolleyes:

A lot of those who ranted and raved about things being 'disgustingly unjust in the North' actually were terrorists.

Wonder if it was the fact that their families and they themselves were not being allowed to vote, getting the last scraps of any resource or jobs, housing, never mind the gerrymandering going on that no-one from outside was doing anything to change.


Bloody hell I'm sick of the anti-nationalist and anti-republican bull**** on this forum, and agree almost completely with Dudess's post above. There's always been ridiculous amounts of anti-Northern-Irish people in areas of the Republic, right from the 60s and 70s.
My dad moved here from the North back in the early 70s, so I know all about what life was like down there. Do I see there was a need for change? Yes. Do I think that everything the IRA did during the troubles was justified? **** no. Most of it wasn't, but something had to be done, and the same kind of sneering ***** who existed in the Republic back then and would do nothing to help are still very much around, except now they'll gladly take advantage of cheaper prices on food, drink and health services north of the border.

And don't get me wrong, I'm sure Sinn Féin will jump on anything the police did wrong, even though it almost certainly wasn't for sectarian or political reasons, I've often seen Gardaí ignore fights and attacks on the street, is that for sectarian reasons? No, it's because they're worried they'll get the **** kicked out of them if they go in to break up a fracas when they're outnumbered, why would the PSNI be any different. Who knows, maybe I'll be proved wrong.

But for God's sake all that should be needed to be said on this thread is that those who carried out the attack are pure scum and hopefully won't be released at any point in the future. And of course RIP to the murdered man and my thoughts are with his family, and with the man still critical in hospital who hopefully can make a full recovery.

Hagar

futurehope wrote: »

No, The Irish are not the enemy of Unionism - only those who seek to tear Unionists from their own country - by hook or by crook.

On the contrary I would very much like to see the Unionists living happily in their own country, Scotland wasn't it?

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Well at least the 'vile' Unionists didn't cover up the rape of their own children.

Jaysus, he's busted us. We're all closet-pedos!

I'm willing to go out on a limb and state that you are getting into sectarian territory with that rhetoric.

futurehope

Jesus1222 wrote: »

The majority were ordinary decent citizens and included some Protestants, unfortunately Unionists moved to end any possibility of improved conditions for Catholics and launched campaigns against them.

Actually genius, the Northern Ireland Civil Rights movement actually contained UNIONISTS. You learn something new every day don't you?;)

I wonder why they eventually dropped The 'NI' bit of The 'NICRA'? Oh, could it be because Northern Ireland doesn't exist in the eyes of Republicans, such as those who ran The Civil Rights Movement? :rolleyes:

Souljacker

allin-king wrote: »

Look, I'm actually sick of the bias on this forum, Catholic man gets beaten to death by bunch of Loyalist Scumbags and its all "British Ulster" and "IRA scumbags".

If a Protestant Man was to be beaten to death by Republican scumbags, we'd actually be hearing the exact same stuff.

Many times I've seen on this forum the if you're a tad nationalist "you're a celtic jersey wearing scumbag" . Oh and to Futurehope I'd rather if you call the IRA Freedom Fighters(Like Peter Mandelson did), and not terrorists. Thank you

People will always post their opinions and unfortunately however much you wish they'd think differently it ain't going to happen. It’s called freedom of expression.

I live in NI, my family comes from South Armagh and have experienced Provo 'freedom' first hand. Tell me who's freedom were the provos fighting for when the shot 10 work men in cold blood for no other reason than their religion? Kingsmill Massacre. What noble work did they do when they robbed Jean McConville's 10 children of a mother when they shot her in cold blood and destroyed her family’s lives by spreading rumours that she abandoned her children to run away with a British soldier when they knew they made her walk to a shallow grave when stole her freedom to live? When the Provo member stabbed Robert McCartney and threatened a bar full of people who's freedom was he fighting for.
Given the Provo campaign of bombings, abductions retaliation attacks terrorist is a far more apt description and I’ll make no apologies for calling the Provos terrorists.

I abhor the loyalist scumbags who murdered this man but completely and utterly reject the argument that the any pseudo or real Provo security force in any way would be welcome as an alternative to the PSNI, unless you think fascism, intimidation and extortion should be the main principles of those who protect and serve.

futurehope

Hagar wrote: »

On the contrary I would very much like to see the Unionists living happily in their own country, Scotland wasn't it?

I'm afraid that's more Irish junk. Unionists in Ulster come from a variety of backgrounds including English, Huguenot and Irish. Nice try, but don't give up the day job (or dole?).

upthedub

futurehope wrote: »

Actually genius, the Northern Ireland Civil Rights movement actually contained UNIONISTS. You learn something new every day don't you?;)

I wonder why they eventually dropped The 'NI' bit of The 'NICRA'? Oh, could it be because Northern Ireland doesn't exist in the eyes of Republicans, such as those who ran The Civil Rights Movement? :rolleyes:

Are you from the north??Possibly a prod??

Dudess

Judging by your lack of response to me, I'm guessing you agree your original comeback was hilariously pathetic?

oscarBravo

Wagons circled. Trenches dug. Thread locked. As usual.

GuanYin

NOTE TO ALL -

There are 232 posts here, I am going to review every post in this thread later today. Any post that violates the forum charter, in even the slightest way, will be sanctioned.


These threads are becoming a vicious circle that I want ended with this one.

GuanYin

Also...

as I will read every post:

THERE IS NO NEED TO REPORT POSTS!!!!!

GuanYin

OK, I've made a list and I'm checking it twice. Expect sanctions in approx 7 hours.

GuanYin

OK -
The following posters have been sanctioned for their contributions on this thread:

T-Runner

dlofnep

Jesus122

kev_ps3

Nodin

Hagar

upthedub

futurehope

Dudess


Their contributions are part of the problem in discussing these issues. In future Nothern Ireland threads, anyone on this list found breaking the rules or continuing the problems (trolling, flaming, baiting, off topic posting, emotive attacks, name calling, attacking posters) will receive a straight red card and 1 month ban from the forum.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Sounds like a bog-standard nationalist inferiority complex to me.

On reflection, this was a stupid and inflammatory thing to say. Apologies specifically to FTA69 to whom it was directly addressed, and to other nationalists who were offended by association.