Michael O Brien on RTE's Q&A

Het-Field

Most powerful performance by any audience member in the shows history. He made mince meat out of the church and the state. A Brave Brave man

Who saw it ?

thebman

Yeah it was very powerful and filled with emotion and you couldn't help but feel for the guys cause.

Didn't think much of the rest of the show though. One thing that really annoyed me was a comment read that the church were not responsible for the abuse but Irish society and the government were responsible which I felt was a disgusting comment to make.

People will do anything to delude themselves into thinking the church can do no wrong.

siobhan.murphy

poor bastard,but at least he has been able to get himself a lovely wife to help him through a very rough life.

Joey the lips

My father is 72 this year, my father told me that this was known to be going on when he was in his late teens. Welll known! but it was associated with Girls being pregnant, orphens and farmers kids where the mother would die and they would be put into care

There is no doubt in my mind that the church was the overall guilty party But I believe the state was no better in it's role. It had to know! It did nothing, further more that women for the life of me I cannot think of her name! that took the case to the high courts and lost the govermnet of today are sending her case notes to victums in asking them to settle out of court!

While we are not individually guilty as a nation we are all guilty, our goverment of today is guilty our parents were guilty of not stopping it and the baxtards that wear they cloth! if there is a hell I hope to meet them there cause nothing would give me greater pleasure than to watch them burn forever!

Sorry for the rant. Its all sickening. Thanks

ninty9er

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

paddyland

No, the 'state' didn't rape or bugger those children, individuals did.

But there will always be 'individuals' in all walks of life, who perpetrate sickening offence on others, this child abuse being a most horrific example.

Therefore it is the duty of the 'state' to put some order on things, to DEAL with things, as it were. You cannot prevent every horror from occuring, but you can bring sanction on those who perpetrate it, and support to those who are victim to it.

No, the 'state' didn't bugger those children, but the FF party made a good job of buggering the dirty little indemnity deal done with the representatives of the perpetrators.

capsubsidy.com

paddyland wrote: »

No, the 'state' didn't rape or bugger those children, individuals did..

True however the institutions who were aware of the abuse and did nothing about it are complicit. They should have to pay reparations.

I don't see how hard it is. The state should pay the victims then take the institutions for every penny they have.

Villain

I can't remember ever seeing anything like that before, brave brave man who showed that this is far beyond politics and FF and FG need to understand that

Joey the lips

capsubsidy.com wrote: »

True however the institutions who were aware of the abuse and did nothing about it are complicit. They should have to pay reparations.

I don't see how hard it is. The state should pay the victims then take the institutions for every penny they have.

The state might not have done it but they knew it was going on! They just never realised the extent!

BlackWizard

Got this off the property pin.

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22176&p=256499#p256499

It's powerful stuff.

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97i9y3941

i seen that last night,and i say fair play to the man,he took advantage of live tv to tell his frustrations of himself and the public itself of the gov protecting pedos

jank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

I am ashamed of the government, the church and everyone who stood by while this happened to others.
It makes me ashamed that I am Irish.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

The country is morally and financially bankrupt.

irish_bob

Het-Field wrote: »

Most powerful performance by any audience member in the shows history. He made mince meat out of the church and the state. A Brave Brave man

Who saw it ?

i was frozen to the couch , never heard such a powerfull speech in my entire life

spadder

Jesus, powerful stuff. Thanks for the video, Dempsey and Varadker stunned. We need a spokesman like this for the health service

walshb

As bad as those vile creeps were who actually committed the offences, the State knowing and turning a blind eye is the most wicked of the lot!

The perpetrators couldn't help themselves, they are simply evil and despicable
humans. The state however knew of the atrocity and covered and made excuses and actually allowed it to continue. Without the State's approval, it would never have been so widespread and awful!

Fratton Fred

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

"And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations, "

I believe the term "Epic Fail would be appropriate.

snubbleste

Why do i get the feeling he'd vote FF no matter what they did ?

Marshy

snubbleste wrote: »

Why do i get the feeling he'd vote FF no matter what they did ?

Because he basically said so.

But for someone who's been involved with a party for as long as he seem to have been it's obviously a difficult decision to turn his back on them.

Jason Mc

Let's get this straight. The catholic church as an instituition is an absolute disgrace for allowing this to happen to the most vulnerable in our society

This talk about individuals holds no credence. They instituationally hid what was going on and the sooner the numbers that grovel to their altars drop off the better.

What sort of religion teaches it people from an early age that they are sinners? Oh yeah the ones that are sinning themselves...

The state as a whole should be ashamed and every effort should be put in to bring any perpitrators of these deeds to justice.

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

Stop trying to pass the buck.

FF, FG, Lab all parties have a lot to answer.
They must have known something about these homes, these schools but yet it was convenient to do nothing or politically wise not to go against the church.
Irish society has a lot to answer.

The dept of education and justice have a lot to answer.

Yes it was individuals that carried out the evil acts, but they were protected both by the organisaitons of the chruch and the church itself.
To this day organisations such as the christian brothers are still trying to cover up and deny involvement.

They were also protected by the authorities of the state and the crimes were allowed go on for 60 odd years ffs.

A big reason people are angry with FF is because of the shameful contract that the ff government of 1997/2002 drew up with the religious orders.
Even worse it's architect is still defending the indefensible.
The breakdown of who would pay what is bad enough, but the indemnity clause that appears to exist is shocking.
Remove christian brother influence from education, take over the schools. I don't give a flying f*** if the schools are held by a trust named after the founder of the organisation.
He founded an organisation that condoned the rape and abuse of boys round the world.
Do what the Canadians did and bankrupt them.

As the brave speaker on Q&A last night said it is just not the money, it is the way that victims have been treated. Another prominent example is the way the lady who sued the state over being abused by dept of education employed and paid teacher. This time it was pass the buck to the school management.
That case shows how little we learnt from the haemophiliacs case and the way victims of state inadequacies and neglect are treated.
Protect the state at all costs appears to be the motto.


FF should be proud that Michael O'Brien had represented them and still appears to stand by the party, but FFS the party should be ashamed that michael woods was ever a member never mind one of it's government ministers.

vincenzolorenzo

irish_bob wrote: »

i was frozen to the couch , never heard such a powerfull speech in my entire life

+1. Unbelievable speech. Its an absolute disgrace what went on and the church should be punished far more harshly than they have been. yes the state obviously has a duty to pay as well as they didn't do anything about it at the time but they're not 90% liable ffs. Thank you Michael O Brien for your bravery and for telling it like it is

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

bmaxi

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

+1. Unbelievable speech. Its an absolute disgrace what went on and the church should be punished far more harshly than they have been. yes the state obviously has a duty to pay as well as they didn't do anything about it at the time but they're not 90% liable ffs. Thank you Michael O Brien for your bravery and for telling it like it is

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

Church and State were inseparable at the time. I grew up in the north inner city and I can still see the processions of State cars going in to the Archbishop's Palace in Drumcondra, to ask advice of "His Grace".

hellboy99

jmayo wrote: »

FF, FG, Lab all parties have a lot to answer.
They must have known something about these homes, these schools but yet it was convenient to do nothing or politically wise not to go against the church.

Of course they knew and the Gardai did too, but at that time the church had more power and ran the country, they were either afraid to act or had a nice deal going on with the them.
You only have to look back 30 - 40 years to see what our country was like; legal condom sales were allowed for the first time in 1978, Playboy Magazine banned in 1959 and was not made legal to sell until 1996.

The Church preach and teach so called Christian values, morals, to respect one another etc... to all their followers everyday. They now need to take a "leaf from their own book", they should stand up and do a whole lot more, give the names of those who committed such acts to the Gardai and do all in their power to bring justice to all of the victims.

I don't know how anyone could have any respect for the Church now.

Het-Field

ninty9er wrote: »

I agree that it's completely sickening, but to place the nub of blame on either church or state is too simplistic. The real balme lies with the individuals who perpetrated the abuse and the management that did nothing about it.

There is plenty of blame to go around here, but I believe most of it lies with individuals.

Get real. Fianna Fail, Micheal Woods and Bertie Ahern indemnified the Church against any further suits. The people are angry because they are now getting the two fingers from the church again, and the Government are willing to idly sit by. Its incredible, over 70 years after the enactment of buntracht na h'Eireann, and Fianna Fail still have a vested interest in the church.


Remember, also the church and the state were the managers of this matter. They kept it quiet, and kept denying it. I still remember (as a 11 year old) watching Christine Buckley's "Dear Daughter" documentary in 1996, and the next morning listening to one of the impugned nuns on the radio claiming there was no abuse.

This is most certainly Ireland's biggest shame, and lowest ebb.

kc66

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Read even a couple of these 2600 pages and it makes you want to puke. Animals, any of them still alive should be locked up and throw away the key

Theres some sick stuff in there alright. Just read a few pages. What a pity their names are withheld. They should be outed publicly.

Zuiderzee

I dont know all the details, but after watching Q&A and listening to CORI on radio my gut feeling is

1) This Sunday, people should simply not attend mass or give funds to the church

2) If People are angry and upset should use the internet to arrange something like silent peaceful protests outside the churches or parish houses, particularly of the orders who were involved in abuse - sort of like Anonymous arranged.

3) Keep up the boycott until the compensation and apologies are in place
The agreement seems to be ****. Re-negotiate

4) All 18 orders involved in abuse should be asked to consider winding up their work in the state, certainly the CBS should be disbanded.

5) Hierarchy, if they believe, really believe that this Bertie deal should be re-visited then they can join the protests. Or they can choose to resign if they continue to fail in their self appointed duty of care.

Kc66 is right, name the abusers, bring them to court, put them in jail.
I'm sorry - I know I should look at the reports, but I am so upset at Mr. O Briens statement I dont think I can look at any more.

I am in awe of Mr O Briens courage, his achievements in life despite what he went through, and his wife and families support of him.

When Mr. O Brien feels the solution is appropriate, only then people should start returning to church.

I am sorry I do not know all the details, but this is my gut feeling - and I know faith is important to people, but I for one really think that all people need to take a stand on this one.

I have seen it written here that there were failures by the state, by the people etc. - and there is merit in that - so at least lets try to put it right by acting on it.

As for the weaseling in this report!!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0526/morningireland_av.html?2550199,null,209

Sleepy

Zuiderzee wrote: »

All 18 orders involved in abuse should be asked to consider winding up their work in the state, certainly the CBS should be disbanded.

Couldn't agree more.

How our country can allow any religion influence in our education system after our country's history is beyond me...

solice

Sleepy wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

How our country can allow any religion influence in our education system after our country's history is beyond me...

Because if they didnt we wouldnt have had an education system. Dev abdicated all responsibility to education by handing the power to educate to the religious orders. It was always an agreement that the state had with the church, "educate my people and I will give you money, but I will not take responsibility". This was proven in a recent case, the name escapes me, but the state won as the constitution states "The state will provide for an education"* not that the state will provide an education.

Its in our constitution, the government has no responsibility to educate you or me.


*this may not be an exact quote of the constitution but its the jist of it

oscarBravo

It occurs to me to wonder: would there be a net cost to the state to take over responsibility for education from religious orders? Is there a cost saving involved in having the church run schools, or is it just inertia?

InFront

oscarBravo wrote: »

It occurs to me to wonder: would there be a net cost to the state to take over responsibility for education from religious orders? Is there a cost saving involved in having the church run schools, or is it just inertia?

Not sure what you mean, I take it you mean apart from buying school property from the churches? Because as far as I know the state already pays teachers salaries, which presumably is the next biggest and most significant expense.

Interestingly, there has been a deal done on the transfer of educational properties to the state in relation to child abuse reparations, except a legal constraint makes it effectively bogus.

Also, in relation to state complicity, I was looking up something this morning before work and came across this from April 1954, which makes for interesting reading

Dail Debate, April 1954 - Punishment of a schoolboy in Artane Industrial School

vincenzolorenzo

InFront wrote: »

Dail Debate, April 1954 - Punishment of a schoolboy in Artane Industrial School

Ah it was only an accident says the minister for education. Sure thats grand so

FFS:mad: