Michael O Brien on RTE's Q&A

InFront

I think this portion of the minister's speech was particularly prophetic

I hope it will never happen again. I have not neglected full inquiry into the working of these schools at any time. There are conditions that should be created in all these schools, they are deficient in many things; but that will cost a good deal more money from the State than the relatively small amount that is paid now.

Given that this wa recorded in 1954, is there any clearer evidence of an abrogation of duty than

I can assure them that nothing of the like will happen again. While giving this as a guarantee to parents and knowing the difficult conditions under which the school is run, I would point out to parents that any guarantee I give them of full protection for their children is no licence to any of the children to do what they like.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.20 p.m. sine die.

goldenbrown

do not know this, remarkable piece of television history....I like Noel Whelan's observatiuon that he does not like the word 'abuse' when we are talking about rape, assault and neglect

Agent Smith

Mr. Chairman, I’m surprised at the minister there now.

First of all Mr Minister (directed at Minister Noel Dempsey) you made a bags of it in the beginning by changing the judges. You made a complete bags of it at that time, because I went to the La Foy commission and ye had seven barristers there, questioning me and telling that I was telling lies, when I told them that I got raped of a Saturday, got a merciful beating after it, and then stuffed…

… he came along the following morning and put holy communion in my mouth.

You don’t know what happened there. You haven’t the foggiest, you’re talking through your hat there. And you’re talking to a Fianna Fáil man, a former councilor and former mayor you’re talking to, that worked tooth and nail or you, for the party that you’re talking about now. Ye didn’t do it right, ye got it wrong.

Admit it.

And apologize for doing that. Because you don’t know what I feel inside me. You don’t know the hurt I am.

You said it was non-adversarial.

My God.

Seven barristers.

Throwing questions at us.

Non-stop.

I tri.. attempted to commit suicide, there’s the woman who saved me from committing suicide, on me way down from Dublin, after spending five days at the commission. Five days I spent at the commission. They brought a man over from Rome, ninety odd years of age, to tell me I was telling lies.

That I wasn’t beaten for an hour, non-stop by two of them.

By two of them.

Non-stop from head to toe without a shred of cloth on my body.

My God minister.

And could I speak to you (comment directed to Leo Varadkar, Fianna Gael), and ask your leader, would you stop making a political football of this.

You hurt this when you do that.

You tear the shreds from inside our body.

For God’s sake, try and give us some peace.

Try to give us some peace and not to continue hurting us.

That woman will tell you how many times I jump out of the bed at night with the sweat pumping out of me. Because I see these fellas at the end of the bed with their fingers doing that (gestures) to me. And pulling me in to the room, to rape me, to bugger me and bate the ****e out of me. That’s the way it is.

And you know what?

You know what, sometimes I listen to the leader of Fianna Fáil. I even listened to the apology. T’was mealy mouthed, but at least t’was an apology.

At least t’was an apology.

The Rosminians said in the report, they said they were easy on us. The first day I went to them. The first day to Rosminians in my home which is Ferryhouse in Clonmel, ’cause its the only home I know. He said “you’re in it for the money”.

We didn’t want money.

We didn’t want money. We wanted the pr… someone to stand up and say “yes, these fellas were buggered, these people were ra…”

Little girls. My daughter, oh sorry, my sister. A month old when she was put in to an institution. Eight of us from the one family, dragged by the ISPCC cruelty man. Put in to two cars, brought to the court in Clonmel. Left standing there without food or anything, and the fella in the long black frock and the white collar came along and he put us in to a van.

Not a van, a scut truck, I don’t know what you call it now. And landed us below with two hundred other boys. Two night later I was raped.

How can anyone…

You’re talking about constitution. These people would gladly say “yes” to a constitution to freeze the funds of the religous orders.

This state, this country of ours, would say “yes” to that constitition if you have to change it.

Don’t say you can’t change it.

You’re the governement of this state. You run this state. So for God’s sake stop mealy mouthing. ‘Cause I’m sick of it.

I’m sick of it.

You’re turning me away from voting Fianna Fáil which I have done from the first day that I could vote. Because. And you know me. You know me Mister Minister. You’ve met me on a number of ocassions. So you know what I’m like.

A Transcript from last Nights Q&A

Lee72

Watching Q&A last night really brought home what went on, not just listening to reports on the news or reading about it in the papers, but actually hearing that man, a man you might know or work with or see in the street telling it like it was. We hear about the compensation for victims but it's not like even at this stage that they're given a break. I mean what sort of country and people are we. Really ashamed of being Irish, does it even count for anything anymore. Would really like to see and be part of some public action as suggested earlier.

irish_bob

while i dont attend mass myself , those who do , if they really give a fig about the victims should boycott mass untill the church front up with what they owe , you dont have to go to mass to worship god , to borrow one from minister lenehan , it is nothing less than a patriotic call to duty to boycott church

thebigcheese22

After watching that clip, I was transifxed.


All I can say is wow, what bravery that man has, I hope he truly finds peace.

walshb

Was anyone listening to Joe Duffy today?

There was a man on who said he was put into
one of the institutions aged 3 for not attending
school; yes, not attending school?

It went straight over clueless Duffy's head.
He never copped that a child aged 3 would never
have been legally required to attend school.

He never mentioned it or queried it at all.
The fact is that the state and the Gardai
were complicit in all of this. It was the Gardai
who came to take the child with a court order
for not attending school.

So, anyone saying this was all to do with the perpetrators
and them alone, is far far off the mark!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ProperDeadly

Does anyone have a list of these 18 religous orders?
I've tried looking, but cant' seem to find one

juuge

kc66 wrote: »

Theres some sick stuff in there alright. Just read a few pages. What a pity their names are withheld. They should be outed publicly.

These savage rapists walk among us, they pass us on the street they walk with impunity. This has to be our worst nightmare!

Het-Field

juuge wrote: »

These savage rapists walk among us, they pass us on the street they walk with impunity. This has to be our worst nightmare!

Sickest of all is the fact that they used those same hands to offer the sacrament of communion to those unfortunates. How dare they !

Firetrap

I only heard what he said on the radio this morning and it's been haunting me all day. I'm not easily shocked but what he said certainly did the job. We've heard an awful lot of about what went on but when you see and hear an ordinary man explain in such a heartfelt articulate manner exactly what happened to him and how it has affected his life, it makes it all the more chilling.

It's a disgrace that such appalling treatment of children was allowed to go on. I don't buy for one second that nobody in authority knew. I remember my late grandmother telling me years ago (long before any stories broke) about how badly the orphans in the day school she attended were treated. It's not as if things were that hidden.

I don't think people like Michael O'Brien necessarily want money. Their lives have been scarred by the monsters into whose "care" they were entrusted. I get mad when I think of the deal Bertie Ahern & Co struck with the religious orders. These people are being denied something that should be available to all citizens of this country - justice.

Zuiderzee

Make him a senator, now, to help give the survivors some voice in the Government - the numbers are so staggering there is no question of support.
That is of course only if he is willing to work for a state that has failed him so badly as a child and an adult.

FF can ask one of the quango ex TD senators to step down if they have a shread of regret for the deal done - enough spineless bull****.

I wish more of our legal, spiritual and political reps had half the courage and decency of Mr. O Brian.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

Zuiderzee

irish_bob wrote: »

while i dont attend mass myself , those who do , if they really give a fig about the victims should boycott mass untill the church front up with what they owe , you dont have to go to mass to worship god , to borrow one from minister lenehan , it is nothing less than a patriotic call to duty to boycott church

I think people should do an Anonymous type protest.
Go to the church - but stay outside for the duration of the Mass in silent protest.
If people are of faith, then have a prayer meeting outside.

If the heirarchy and politicians really mean what they say, they can join people outside - if not - resign

citizensimon.blogspot.com

jimmycrackcorm

The whole thing will die down in a couple of days unless the Sunday papers can keep it going for another few days next week.

Pedro K

the_dark_side wrote: »

2. PICKET THE CHURCH GATES AS STRIKERS DO, ANYONE WHO PASSES IS A SCAB

While I hate the docile, seemingly spineless at times, nature of the Irish electorate I don't agree with this at all.

I have said in another post before that I wish we were more like the French, and kicked up stink.

But are you seriously telling me that picketing a church is a good idea?

No doubt the people who cross that picket would come in for some abuse and heckling by the picketeers?

No. There are people have been going to church all their lives (My mother and grandmother for example) and I certainly would not like my Mam to come home upset because she was heckled for trying to go to mass! I'd flip!

There are good people in the church. Look at the likes of Father Mernagh, who walked from his parish in munster to Dublin to protest against the churches handling of the abuse scandals, and the fact that the church tried to cover up. He's obviously a little more in the spotlight than others, but I'm sure a lot of people have memories of their local priest doing something to help out the family or community.

I'm not a religious person at all. I belong to no religious order and I pray to no God. But that being said, I still acknowledge that my local church did, and still does, do a fair amount of good work in the community. Be it, staging a bonfire at hallowe'en or helping out with the community games.

And I'm sure a lot of people posting here had a good relationship with the local priest when they were growing up, or when they were in a national school.

Likewise, I'm sure there are some people on here who suffered abuse at the hands of some of these people SCUMBAGS .

But picketing a church wouldn't help at all man.


EDIT AGAIN: Also. Fair play to Michael O Brien. That was tough to watch, and no doubt, unbelievably tough to say. Something I do not, and more than likely will not ever understand because such attrocities haven't been done to me.

Michael O Brien is a champion.

Zuiderzee

Perdro K, you are very correct in sayng there are really decent people in the church, as there are in politics.

But the organisation needs to get its act together.

The politicians have - yet again - abdicated their responsibility for this current impasse to the orders who have caused such pain.

The hierarchy are also trying to shift responsibility to those orders.

But something has to be done. I am not advocating pickets - But I do think that enough people, standing in silent protest outside during mass will make a difference. People like Father Mernagh can join them outside.

The country bears a responsibility for what happened - its time to stand for the survivors, not stand by like sheep as we did before - the hierarchchy wont do it, the politicians wont do it, we are the only ones left who can work for change.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

Pedro K

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Perdro K, you are very correct in sayng there are really decent people in the church, as there are in politics.

But the organisation needs to get its act together.

The politicians have - yet again - abdicated their responsibility for this current impasse to the orders who have caused such pain.

The hierarchy are also trying to shift responsibility to those orders.

But something has to be done. I am not advocating pickets - But I do think that enough people, standing in silent protest outside during mass will make a difference. People like Father Mernagh can join them outside.

The country bears a responsibility for what happened - its time to stand with the survivors, not go on like sheep as we did before - the hierarchchy wont do it, the politicians wont do it, we are the only ones left who can work for change.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

I think that would be a good idea. Much better than picketing certainly!

The only thing is, what's to stop the sdummers who perpetrated rape and buggery from standing outside too. They haven't been named!


With regards to the part of your post I have put in bold!

Too right! Couldn't agree more.

gazzer

If tens of thousands of pensioners can march onto the dail to protest about the medical card cuts then why the hell is the population of Ireland not having a march to show our absolute horror at what happened to these poor children and the continuous trauma that they are experiencing as adults.

I cant get my head around the fact that we are not marching on the dail and demanding that these bastards get put in jail. What is wrong with us? I am utterly ashamed to be Irish after hearing the stories of the last week. Gardai, Priests, TD's all have a part to play in this and we should be roaring at the top of our voices until justice is served.

If this doenst rise the people of Ireland up I really despair for this country.

Zuiderzee

One step at a time Pedro - First we must force change.

Once the church and politicians see that the agreement reached by Bertie is simply unaceptable then they can change it.

Then the police and the judiciary need to deal with these - and I hesitate in using the word - people.
I dont see how - in any case - that the abusers can avoid legal charges for such brutal crimes.

citizensimon.blogspot.com

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Jason Mc

I think the main question people need to ask themselves is can these people ever be trusted again??

My response to that is I know I would never leave my kid/kids in the care of an instituition with a track record like that


As for all the good work the church has done. I honestly can't think of anything apart from riddleing people with a sense of guilt and taking what little pittance the poor have off them when the basket goes round

Zuiderzee

With reference to Mr Crummeys letter,
I went to a boarding school from 1984 to 1990.
Corporal punishment was a pretty much daily for the first 3 years.
I was never personally excessivley punished, but there were others who took some fierce, humiliating beatings.

We were told that there was an exemption in the law - 'in loco parentes' - that deans and teachers were allowed to use physical punishment while acting in the place of the parents.
After the intercert, a new head dean took charge and the levels dropped sharply.
From that school, one man has served time for sexual abuse, another - who was a brute but who left after my first year - I have been told is under Garda investigation.
Both these men had important posts in the dioces.

Even outside specific orders there has been, if not colusion, certainly coverups.

My point is, the Dept. of Ed and the hierarchy have tried to foist the entire current debacle onto the orders, when there was failure and blame across the entire system.

Jason Mc

I know there has been issues in the states with child abuse. Has this happened in many other countries as well?

Or was it to do with the way the church had so much power here.


It really stills baffles me as to why these orders which I'm sure most people believed were there doing good were such evil vicious monsters.


Was it because of the celibacy?? What made these people do these acts? Maybe we'll never know.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

imokyrok

I thought you guys might like to see what William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights in the US, is saying about what he calls the "hysteria" surrounding this catastrophic abuse. I warn you you'll need strong stomach.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33611

netron

Historic moment.

Thank you Michael O'Brien.

What a brave brave man.

imokyrok

netron wrote: »

Historic moment.

Thank you Michael O'Brien.

What a brave brave man.

I tried this morning to post the link to the Michael O'Brien interview as a comment to the catholic league article above. It never appeared. What a surprise.

netron

congrats are in order for the Irish Times - they transcribed what he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0527/1224247503289.html


“Mr Chairman, I am surprised at the Minister now. First of all Minister you made a bags of it in the beginning by changing the judges. You made a complete bags of it at that time because I went to the Laffoy Commission and ye had seven barristers there questioning me, telling me that I was telling lies when I told them that I got raped of a Saturday, got an merciful beating after it and he then came along the following morning and put Holy Communion in my mouth. You don’t know what happened there . You haven’t the foggiest. You’re talking through your hat there, and you are talking to a Fianna Fáil man, and a former councillor and a former mayor that worked tooth and nail for the party that you are talking about now. You didn’t do it right. You got it wrong. Admit it and apologise for doing that because you don’t know what I feel inside me. You don’t know the hurt I have.

You said it was non-adversarial. My God, seven barristers throwing questions at us non-stop. I attempted to commit suicide, [turning to his wife] there’s the woman who saved me from committing suicide on my way down from Dublin after spending five days at the commission . They brought a man over from Rome – 90 odd years of age – to tell me I was telling lies and that I wasn’t beaten for an hour non-stop by two of them from head to toe without a shred of cloth on my body. My God, Minister.

[Turning to Fine Gael TD Leo Varadkar] Can I speak to you and ask your leader to stop making a political football out of this. You hurt us when you do that. You tear the shreds from inside our body. For God’s sake, try and give us some peace, try and give us some peace, and not continue hurting us.

[Turning to his wife]

That woman will tell you how many times I jump out of bed at night with the sweat pumping out of me because I see these fellows at the end of the bed with their fingers pulling me into the room to rape me, to bugger me and to beat the ****e out of me. That’s the way it is, and sometime, you know what, I listen to the leader of Fianna Fáil. I even listened to the apology. It was mealy-mouthed but at least it was an apology. The Rosminians said in the report that they were easy on us. The first day I went there, the first day I went to the Rosminians in my home which is Ferryhouse in Clonmel, the only home I know, he said you’re in it for the money. We didn’t want money. We wanted someone to stand up and say ‘yes these fellows were buggered, these people were robbed’.

Little girls, my sister, a month old when she was put into an institution, eight of us from the one family were dragged by the ISPCC cruelty man, put into two cars and brought to the court in Clonmel. We were left standing there without food or anything and the fellow in the long black frock and white collar came along and he put us into a scut-truck and landed us below with 200 other boys. Two nights later I was raped.

How can anyone, you’re talking about the Constitution, these people would gladly say yes to a Constitution to freeze the funds of the religious orders. This State, this country of ours will say yes to that Constitution if you have to change it.

Don’t say you can’t change it. You are the Government of this State. You run this State. So, for God’s sake, stop mealy-mouthing because I am sick of it. You are turning me away from voting Fianna Fáil, which I have done from the day I could vote.

You know me Minister and you have met me on several occasions, so you know what I am like. Remember Wexford?”

DublinWriter

Colour me cynical, but this is, in Ireland, what I call "Outrage of the Week".

I say the following by way of not intending to demean the testimony of those who have suffered at the hands of religious institutions.

Widow's pensions...the state of A&E...politicians pay...this is just another symptom of our deeply dysfunctional society that we'll bray about for a week or so then move onto the next moral outrage.

We'll wring our hands listening to Liveline or watching Questions and Answers, feel a deep since of moral indignation then wake up the next morning to the sound of our gas and electricity bills falling onto the doormat then go about our day as per usual.

I'm finally beginning to realise that we're a nation of talkers, yakers, spoofers and begrudgers who'd rather prop up a bar, albeit sometimes virtual, than actually go out and affect positive action.