Michael O Brien on RTE's Q&A

thebman

I'd be up for attending a protest in the city centre on this if one was being organised.

I think it definitely deserves one after watching that Questions and Answers broadcast.

edit---

I think the main problem with the country is we are content with sweeping problems under the rug where we can't see them. Out of sight, out of mind. What it needs is constant pressure and coverage in the media. People want something done about it so a newspaper covering it will get the readers IMO so it is up to them to realise that. Just look at the Maddie case! All they need to do is interview victims about what happened to them that are willing to come forward and once there is a victims face to the abuse to push forward that is willing to stay in the media's eye they can keep pushing it on people until they politicians get the message that it isn't going away and do the right thing.

The government are truely spineless and don't want to lose the catholic vote which is about as disgusting as the abuse itself IMO.

Zuiderzee

Dublin writer, I really feel this single ncident has really shaken the country to the core - it was very moving.

thebman - we are so interconnected now - organise a protest, se this site and others - your email, your phone - put out teh word and see how many people you can gather.

I cant come from over here - but let me know where and I will let people in that area that I know about it.

Zuiderzee

imokyrok wrote: »

I thought you guys might like to see what William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights in the US, is saying about what he calls the "hysteria" surrounding this catastrophic abuse. I warn you you'll need strong stomach.

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/opinion/index.html

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=33611

Furious. I just called the Catholic league croud in the US to give them a piece of my mind.
Mr. Donaghue was busy apparently.
Still - I let them know exactly what I thought of the statement - which is the kind that perpetuates abuse.

http://www.catholicleague.org/contact.php

Victor

thebman wrote: »

One thing that really annoyed me was a comment read that the church were not responsible for the abuse but Irish society and the government were responsible which I felt was a disgusting comment to make.

There are various points of responsibility.

I read the section about Greenmount (c1850-1959) in Cork. I grew up no far from it - several of my friends went to the modern primary school built on part of the site. One part mentions that the children were underfed - this in a school that had its own farm of 39 acres. Another section mentions that the allowance paid by the state for a certain category of ... inmate ... was at one point doubled. Now, prices don't double over night and government departments are never generous for things like this, so I don't think the "after" payment was excessive. Therefore, I can only conclude that children went hungry because the state wouldn't pay.

oscarBravo wrote: »

It occurs to me to wonder: would there be a net cost to the state to take over responsibility for education from religious orders? Is there a cost saving involved in having the church run schools, or is it just inertia?

The state doesn't have the administrative ability to take over all the schools, that is, unless they take on the staff that the various voluntary organisations employ.

netron

Victor wrote: »

The state doesn't have the administrative ability to take over all the schools, that is, unless they take on the staff that the various voluntary organisations employ.

why not make the schools independent & self administering. state standards enforced by inspectors.

which is pretty much what they are now - just remove religious control of them.

netron

one things for sure - it puts the British MP expenses scandal in the shade.

if you want real corruption, scandal, and utter depravity we Irish sure as hell beat the crap out of them.

thebman

Victor wrote: »

There are various points of responsibility.

I read the section about Greenmount (c1850-1959) in Cork. I grew up no far from it - several of my friends went to the modern primary school built on part of the site. One part mentions that the children were underfed - this in a school that had its own farm of 39 acres. Another section mentions that the allowance paid by the state for a certain category of ... inmate ... was at one point doubled. Now, prices don't double over night and government departments are never generous for things like this, so I don't think the "after" payment was excessive. Therefore, I can only conclude that children went hungry because the state wouldn't pay.

The comment didn't state that the catholic church only beared some of the responsibility from what I remember.

It basically tried to absolve them of blame. It seemed clear to me that the person who wrote it won't be placing any blame at the churches door.

That kind of attitude sickens me whoever else was involved, the church is at least partially responsible and that is a fooking understatement if ever I typed one.

RobAMerc

does anyone else feel that too much is being made of the church ponying up more funds and not enough made of the fact that no one ha gone to jail for this ?
We should be carting bodies up the steps of the court houses = not bickering over who's paying what !

The Raven.

There are two interesting clips from last night's Prime Time, which give an insight into the devious methods the Christian Brothers use to protect their assets, and they both present quite a damning report. It looks like these 'holy men' have a lot more money than they will admit, and are intent on keeping it.

Mike Milotte looks at the complex question of the Christian Brothers' attempts to protect their assets

Batt O'Keeffe, broadcaster Mary Raftery and Fr Tom Doyle, canon lawyer, discuss the issue of church assets

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0526/primetime_av.html

eimear1

A very brave man who, like all the victims in this horror deserves our support and action, instead of the disgraceful ordeal he was subjected to by the barristers and others when the case finally came to light.
I hope all of those who colluded to allow this to continue in an effort to cover their own actions and those of their friends and brothers felt truly ashamed of themselves watching this, although given their true lack of humanity when covering up the original crimes i doubt they have a shred of decency left.
Name the perpetrators and their conspirators, and start prosecuting everyone who had anything to do with this. Enough with reports and commissions and delaying tactics about money. We have the facts, now use them!

Victor

netron wrote: »

why not make the schools independent & self administering.

Realise that there are still lots of 1 and 2 class schools out there. While a person may be fine as a teacher, they may not know much about how to get funding for, say, roof repairs.

imokyrok

Victor wrote: »

There are various points of responsibility.

I read the section about Greenmount (c1850-1959) in Cork. I grew up no far from it - several of my friends went to the modern primary school built on part of the site. One part mentions that the children were underfed - this in a school that had its own farm of 39 acres. Another section mentions that the allowance paid by the state for a certain category of ... inmate ... was at one point doubled. Now, prices don't double over night and government departments are never generous for things like this, so I don't think the "after" payment was excessive. Therefore, I can only conclude that children went hungry because the state wouldn't pay.

The state doesn't have the administrative ability to take over all the schools, that is, unless they take on the staff that the various voluntary organisations employ.

I read that the orders were paid 126% of the average social welfare payment of the day for each child. There was a description on the radio of the catering facilities normal for the 700 boys in Artane and the 24 brothers. If I remember correctly there were two staff for the 700 boys and one for the 24 monks.

Heres a description of the food in one Industrial School, Artane I think:

In those places EVERYTHING was part of your punishment. Mealtimes were a PUNISHMENT. Our food was vile, it really would have been illegal AND cruel to feed pigs on what we "survived" on. Our main food really was bread and dripping. And the dripping wasn't the nice white strained stuff you'd see on the shelves of Tesco's all nicely wrapped, nope it was a funny yellow colour.

Funny isn't the right word there - it was a kind of OFF-YELLOW/KHAKI colour. Having that spread on your skinner (slice of bread) in the morning at 7:00am was meant to sustain until 12:30 in the afternoon. I remember getting "porridge" too, note the quotes as when I became an adult and was given porridge I hesitated because what I was being served as an adult didn't look or didn't taste anything like what I got as porridge in those places. I firmly believe that this "porridge" we were given was something that the pigs had refused to eat.

Dinners were another PUNISHMENT. Let me describe a STEW in those places. Imagine a gravy, not too thick now, with soft watery lumps, 3 strands of meat - these strands are THINNER than your laces and about the length of your thumb (this is the thumb of a 10 year old child), 2 round slices of carrot and 1 spud (green tinged of course). But wait now, we also got desserts sometimes, really we did. How ever so posh. May I describe the dessert? OK. Well it was a bread pudding. That's not very posh I hear you say - but hold on now - our bread pudding was also green-tinged AND had that OFF-YELLOW/KHAKI colour. Beat that if you can.

Tea/Supper was the old reliable: Bread and Dripping again but THEY did try to vary our Tea/Supper because we'd get "Oxtail Soup" sometimes. Well THEY called it "Oxtail Soup" and I've watched, with something approaching jealousy, my own children having Oxtail Soup and let me tell you my children's Oxtail Soup is nothing like the "Oxtail Soup" dished up to us in those places. We'll never know what kind of dish it was as the Government of the day didn't have the right to demand from these orders the diet that we were fed on. I'm just talking about our diets in those places being used as way to PUNISH us. But really everything about those places was a PUNISHMENT.

Courtesy of http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/70995-day-life-industrial-school-boy-punishment-perspective.html

netron

Victor wrote: »

Realise that there are still lots of 1 and 2 class schools out there. While a person may be fine as a teacher, they may not know much about how to get funding for, say, roof repairs.

the school board could make such decisions.

The Raven.

RobAMerc wrote: »

does anyone else feel that too much is being made of the church ponying up more funds and not enough made of the fact that no one ha gone to jail for this ?
We should be carting bodies up the steps of the court houses = not bickering over who's paying what !

No, and that is a ridiculous statement. Do you think that 'carting bodies up the steps of the court houses' can be done for free? Of course they should face trial. The indemnity clause of this deal is a disgrace, and has been discussed heres everal times.

I am delighted to hear that victims are calling for the names to be handed over to the gardai. The gardai have already been looking into this.

Victims want abusers' names given to gardaí

A group of survivors of child abuse has called on 18 religious congregations to hand over to gardaí the names of members who violated children and the files they hold on them.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0527/abuse.html

There is very little news on this as yet.

RLJ

jank wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Thanks for uploading that I have to show someone who missed it easy access here

horseflesh

Well, here's my idea....

I have a simple proposal for the ordinary people of Ireland to show both our support for the victims and our disapproval for the stance of the religious orders.
I expect it would be difficult to organise and synchronise a nationwide "protest"; an event in Dublin would automatically rule out over half the country (even arranging a march/protest/vigil in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick would leave many people unable to attend). A nationwide minute of silence, while an apt gesture, is by definition passive.
What I have in mind is a synchronised "walk-out" at 12 o'clock mass this Sunday, in every church in the country. My suggestion is that when the priest comes to the front of the altar at the start of the mass, everyone literally stands up, turns their backs and walks out. It would require that people who are not regular church-goers go to their local church on Sunday to do this. I would also urge people who ARE regular church-goers to show their support in the same way. It would take literally 10 minutes of your time.
I know people will say that the Catholic Church as an organisation is not the direct subject of the Ryan Report, rather the 18 religious orders. However, these orders are under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, the same church that for decades covered up systematic abuse and when offenders' crimes came to light simply moved those offenders elsewhere. The words of Cardinal Brady and Archbishop Martin this week are welcome, but they need to know that it's not enough. People will also say that a walk-out on Sunday is not the right thing to do, that it will demoralise the already dejected ordinary priests of Ireland. It will, but it would pale into infinite insignificance compared to the horror suffered by thousands of Irish children over decades.
We the people of Ireland need to get the message across that we are extrememely unhappy with the Church's inaction, and what better place to do it than on their own doorstep.
It would also challenge all TDs, Senators, and councillors and MEPs either seeking first-time election or re-election next week to show their support. This is your chance to show that you are in touch with the people of Ireland, to put your money where your mouth is. This call in particular goes to Eamon Gilmore and Enda Kenny; I don't want to disrespect anyone by using a sporting metaphor, but this is your chance to step up to the plate. Also to An Taoiseach and the members of his government; I ask you to show your support too, but somehow I expect that you're so tied up with the establishment that you will be found wanting. (by the way I want to make clear that I am not a member of, nor affiliated to any political party or organisation, I am just an ordinary citizen of Ireland).
This is chance for the people of Ireland to both show our support for the victims and to show the Church and the government that we are disgusted with the situation we find ourselves in and that has brought worldwide shame on our wonderful little country. I am asking for direct action, but no one will get hurt and I'm not asking people to burn down their local church. If enough of us do this, maybe the powers that be in both Church and State will sit up and take notice. When the Catholic hierarchy see churches full to the brim at 12 noon, and half empty at 12:02 they will realise the mood of the people.

The Raven.

In these days, people in Ireland complain about Polish and other foreign workers sending money out of Ireland, home to their countries, but money has been flowing slowly and silently abroad out of Irish pockets for many years, without as much as a whimper.

Until recent times it was famously said that the role of the laity was "to pray, pay and obey", a state of submission that suited the Pope in Rome, the bishops in their palaces and the religious orders in their mansions.

Of these three commands, paying financial dues to Rome has been the least examined aspect of the recent history of the Irish Catholic Church.

But it has proved to be a money trail that has filled many a papal coffer.

In the long early decades of an impoverished State, from which its people were emigrating in droves, and many a family dependent on their survival for remittances from emigrants, the bulk of this money was sent by the remaining loyal faithful at home to an already fabulously rich Vatican in the form of the annual Peter's Pence collections.

In return, the Holy Father, or his minions in the Curia, the Vatican's civil service, would flatter bishops by sending them parchments telling them how grateful the Holy Father was for the generosity of Irish Catholics.

Bishops would purr, priests would boast and the docile lay folk in the pews would feel proud of their special place in the affections of the reigning pontiff.

This delusion of Ireland having a special relationship with the Holy See was shattered when an Irish ambassador in Washington reported back to the Government in Dublin the shocking news that he had visited the ailing Cardinal Archbishop of Boston, Richard Cushing, who told him that "Rome does not give a damn about Ireland -- it does not have money."

This one-way money trail from Ireland to Rome is not going to be reversed today if the Dail unites in a solemn appeal to Rome to bail out the religious orders by picking up the additional tab, and helping pay for a bill that will exceed by far the €128m cap on their contribution specified under the infamous 2002 indemnity deal.

With that final bill heading for over €1bn in compensation to clerical abuse victims, it is wishful thinking on the part of the Greens leader, John Gormley, that Pope Benedict will send a cheque in the post via the apostolic nuncio resident in Dublin. No Michaelangelo painting is going to be sold to help compensate the former inmates of Goldenbridge, Artane or Daingean.

Read more…

Mr. Ratzinger, it’s time to cough up !!

netron

Via Horseflesh above:


What I have in mind is a synchronised "walk-out" at 12 o'clock mass this Sunday, in every church in the country.

My suggestion is that when the priest comes to the front of the altar at the start of the mass, everyone literally stands up, turns their backs and walks out.

It would require that people who are not regular church-goers go to their local church on Sunday to do this.

I would also urge people who ARE regular church-goers to show their support in the same way.


( re formatted - so that folks get the point... i hope i've done it justice.. agree 100 per cent. time for a revolution folks...)

netron

horseflesh wrote: »

Well, here's my idea....

I have a simple proposal for the ordinary people of Ireland to show both our support for the victims and our disapproval for the stance of the religious orders.
I expect it would be difficult to organise and synchronise a nationwide "protest"; an event in Dublin would automatically rule out over half the country (even arranging a march/protest/vigil in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Waterford and Limerick would leave many people unable to attend). A nationwide minute of silence, while an apt gesture, is by definition passive.
What I have in mind is a synchronised "walk-out" at 12 o'clock mass this Sunday, in every church in the country. My suggestion is that when the priest comes to the front of the altar at the start of the mass, everyone literally stands up, turns their backs and walks out. It would require that people who are not regular church-goers go to their local church on Sunday to do this. I would also urge people who ARE regular church-goers to show their support in the same way. It would take literally 10 minutes of your time.
I know people will say that the Catholic Church as an organisation is not the direct subject of the Ryan Report, rather the 18 religious orders. However, these orders are under the umbrella of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, the same church that for decades covered up systematic abuse and when offenders' crimes came to light simply moved those offenders elsewhere. The words of Cardinal Brady and Archbishop Martin this week are welcome, but they need to know that it's not enough. People will also say that a walk-out on Sunday is not the right thing to do, that it will demoralise the already dejected ordinary priests of Ireland. It will, but it would pale into infinite insignificance compared to the horror suffered by thousands of Irish children over decades.
We the people of Ireland need to get the message across that we are extrememely unhappy with the Church's inaction, and what better place to do it than on their own doorstep.
It would also challenge all TDs, Senators, and councillors and MEPs either seeking first-time election or re-election next week to show their support. This is your chance to show that you are in touch with the people of Ireland, to put your money where your mouth is. This call in particular goes to Eamon Gilmore and Enda Kenny; I don't want to disrespect anyone by using a sporting metaphor, but this is your chance to step up to the plate. Also to An Taoiseach and the members of his government; I ask you to show your support too, but somehow I expect that you're so tied up with the establishment that you will be found wanting. (by the way I want to make clear that I am not a member of, nor affiliated to any political party or organisation, I am just an ordinary citizen of Ireland).
This is chance for the people of Ireland to both show our support for the victims and to show the Church and the government that we are disgusted with the situation we find ourselves in and that has brought worldwide shame on our wonderful little country. I am asking for direct action, but no one will get hurt and I'm not asking people to burn down their local church. If enough of us do this, maybe the powers that be in both Church and State will sit up and take notice. When the Catholic hierarchy see churches full to the brim at 12 noon, and half empty at 12:02 they will realise the mood of the people.

THAT is the best idea i have ever read about this sorry affair.

so simple, yet very effective.

i've reposted your suggestion in its entiriity on the Peoples Republic of Cork forum. i would suggest that others do the same to their own non boards.ie websites.

aodhank

Do we not all have to take a share of the blame . Did we not all know what was happening.

What is /was the kennedy commission ?

netron

aodhank wrote: »

Do we not all have to take a share of the blame . Did we not all know what was happening.

What is /was the kennedy commission ?

share of the blame? excuse me - but my trade unionist father has fought these bastards all his ****ing life.

my father didnt get his penis out and bugger young boys. the catholic church did. we're not "all to blame" - a lot of us fought the *****.

Martyr

May 13th 2009

The Spanish Bishops’ Conference has begun its campaign to urge people to tick the Catholic Church box in their tax return, as well as the box for other social and charitable aims.

link

Since 1987 each income tax payer must declare whether he wants this "church tax", (at first 0.52% and later 0.70%), to go to the Catholic Church, another denomination or be used for other social purposes. Since 2008, this tax can also be split between a religious denomination and "social purposes". However, due to the large number of Catholic charities, the Church benefits even when someone ticks the "social purposes" box. And that's not all: the state tops up the money from this tax to ensure that the Church receives the same income as it had before the system was introduced at the end of 1987.* This is in accordance with the Finance Concordat which guarantees (in Article 2.3.) that, come what may, "the Catholic Church shall receive funds of a similar amount".

The above is about a movement in Spain to stop public funds going into the pockets of the catholic church.

Ireland should also try to ensure that the Roman Catholic Church never receive a single cent of public money again.

imokyrok

Netron - I see you got the Q and A link onto the Catholic League site. Well done. They didn't post my comment with it at all. Perhaps my pointing out that by his statement William A Donohue had become an abuser of the abused wasn't appreciated. I hope US catloics who read that trash take the time to view the link.

One suggestion I saw regarding mass was to put peanuts on the offertory plate instead of money. Afterall peanuts is what they paid to the victims.

jpfahy

DublinWriter wrote: »

Colour me cynical, but this is, in Ireland, what I call "Outrage of the Week".

I say the following by way of not intending to demean the testimony of those who have suffered at the hands of religious institutions.

Widow's pensions...the state of A&E...politicians pay...this is just another symptom of our deeply dysfunctional society that we'll bray about for a week or so then move onto the next moral outrage.

We'll wring our hands listening to Liveline or watching Questions and Answers, feel a deep since of moral indignation then wake up the next morning to the sound of our gas and electricity bills falling onto the doormat then go about our day as per usual.

I'm finally beginning to realise that we're a nation of talkers, yakers, spoofers and begrudgers who'd rather prop up a bar, albeit sometimes virtual, than actually go out and affect positive action.

So true, so true. In most countries the scandals we have seen recently: Bank Corruption, A+E, Medical Cards, not to mention this current debacle would have sparked huge physical protests that would have led to the Government having to take proper action or fall. I have to think that in France, for example, the Government would be long gone. But us paddies just moan a bit and put up with the governments excuses "ah shure what can they do" and we'll vote most of them back in on June 5th.

jpfahy

For me the most striking thing about Michael O'Briens speech was the part where he tried to wake Minister Dempsey up to the fact that he was the government. FF seem to forget that they are actually in charge. That it is up to them to bring about change. They spend all their time hiding behind excuses: Legal advice/constraints, world economic conditions, private institutions, etc. etc., For years they have governed through consultants reports and buffers like the HSE. They don't realise that it's their job to bulldoze through these obstacles and get the job done.

Amtmann

Can I just ask, who exactly is Michael O'Brien? I gather he was mayor of some place; of where was mayor, and when?

Pedro K

Furet wrote: »

Can I just ask, who exactly is Michael O'Brien? I gather he was mayor of some place; of where was mayor, and when?

He was mayor of Clonmel some time back.
I can't remember exactly when though.

Zuiderzee

My oriinal suggestion was go and dont enter - Horseflesh has a better idea.

We have never been so connected - internet, phones, email etc.

Now - because ifferent maas' go at different paces I suggest that those who wish to protest leave at a specific point - i.e the pofesson of faith as opposed to a fixed hour - its fairly simple, we - at this point - no longer can profess to believe in the catholic church

This is something we have to do, we stood aside before - lets not do it again

thebman

jpfahy wrote: »

For me the most striking thing about Michael O'Briens speech was the part where he tried to wake Minister Dempsey up to the fact that he was the government. FF seem to forget that they are actually in charge. That it is up to them to bring about change. They spend all their time hiding behind excuses: Legal advice/constraints, world economic conditions, private institutions, etc. etc., For years they have governed through consultants reports and buffers like the HSE. They don't realise that it's their job to bulldoze through these obstacles and get the job done.

They know very well they are in charge.

This is a handy excuse for them to wash their hands of it that people seem to buy and the media refuses to pull them on it for some reason.

Overall what it comes down to is they are spineless.

horseflesh

Zuiderzee wrote: »

My oriinal suggestion was go and dont enter - Horseflesh has a better idea.

We have never been so connected - internet, phones, email etc.

Now - because ifferent maas' go at different paces I suggest that those who wish to protest leave at a specific point - i.e the pofesson of faith as opposed to a fixed hour - its fairly simple, we - at this point - no longer can profess to believe in the catholic church

This is something we have to do, we stood aside before - lets not do it again

My idea was to do it at 12 o'clock mass, I can't imagine there's any church in the country that doesn't have a 12 o'clock mass.
And when the priest walks onto the altar and utters his first word; that's when everyone should stand up, turn their backs and walk out.
That way they'll see the effect of having the church full to the brim at 12:00 and half empty at 12:02.
No need for goading or triumphalism or any confrontation, just a simple, silent, dignified act.