Can we trust Fine Gael?

truebluedub

Can we trust Fine Gael?

There are two issues at the core of this issue: a history of racism and a history of corruption, I will deal with the former first and return to the latter in a later post. If anyone wants to complain about other parties please set up another thread.

Racism

How do we demonstrate racism? A scientific paper by Dr. Amanda Hanyes, Dr. Eoin Devereux and Dr. Michael Breen has shown that several frames of racist discourse generally exist. This [FONT=&quot]is available at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://www.ul.ie/sociology/docstore/workingpapers/wp2004-03.pdf. While the frames mentioned are used to refer to asylum seekers and refugees they can for the most part be generalised to other groups.[/FONT]
The frames:
Illegitimacy
Threat to National or Local Integrity
Social Deviancy
Criminal Element
Economic Threat

FG
Leaving aside Enda Kenny's racist joke which shows nothing more than that he is oblivious to the connotations of what he said there are several verifiable examples of racism coming from FG. This racism is aimed at two groups travelers and immigrants.

I am a bit wary of using the example of travellers in discussion having seen what happens to my students when I mention travellers - even the most liberal of them turns into a racist.

Monday, September 24, 2007

Invasion
by Mary Frances Ryan

FORMER CHAIRMAN of Enniscorthy Town Council, Fine Gael Cllr. Paddy Kavanagh shocked Enniscorthy Town Council on Monday night when he launched into an outburst of invectives against Travellers.

“They will rape and pillage the area around them for the weekend and leave their dirt and filth for the Council to clean up,” he said.

His outburst followed the weekend encampment of up to 30 caravans, vans and horseboxes at the Promenade in Enniscorthy.

Describing the Travellers as “visitors from afar”, Cllr. Kavanagh said that, if he had his way, he would put them out “in the middle of the sea, most of those fellows”.

Maintaining that it was not just a local issue but a national one, he said: “These Travellers, these mobile business people coming into a town have to be legislated for nationally.”

Enniscorthy had been given a huge display of wealth in the form of vans and caravans in the encampment at the weekend such that he thought he was at a motor exhibition, Cllr. Kavanagh continued.

“People will say we have to be politically correct but they are leeches on society. They pay no tax.”

Pointing out that this was not just happening in Enniscorthy, he referred to the fact that a similar encampment had set up recently in Courtown, believed to have involved the same people.

“We as tax payers have rights in this country. Our right is to be able to go about our business without being interrupted by these cowboys.”

http://www.enniscorthyecho.ie/news/story/?trs=cwqleymhsn

That one spoke for itself

WHILE politicians are notably slow to defend travellers, they often seem equally reluctant to speak out against anti-social behaviour from members of the travelling community. A few weeks ago, Fine Gael's Olivia Mitchell sought legislation to end travellers' invasions of private property, and called on travellers to live up to the 'Citizen Traveller' slogan by accepting their responsibilities as well as claiming their rights. "The recent unpublicised encampment by five traveller families from Wexford on yet another school grounds in my own constituency is just one further example of a countrywide series of invasions by members of the travelling community onto private or state property this summer, " said Deputy Mitchell. "All of these invasions have one thing in common ? either the travelling community leave after an expensive court injunction is got, forcing their departure, or they leave 'voluntarily' once the property owner or the local residents pay them 'goodbye money'. The practice was a form of extortion, " she said.

The Citizen Traveller message would fall on deaf ears, Deputy Mitchell warned, so long as the travellers "insist on putting themselves above other citizens when it comes to the rights of the settled community to the integrity of their lands and property". Collins' response to Deputy Mitchell's comments was to make a personal attack on Deputy Mitchell regarding an internal Fine Gael investigation of payments to politicians earlier this year: "Olivia Mitchell would be far better off worrying about politicians taking hello money than travellers looking for goodbye money, " he remarked. Another Pavee Point spokesperson replied by attacking the "conspicuous silence" of politicians like Mitchell when it came to calling on their constituents to support the provision of proper accommodation for travellers in their areas.

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2000/sep/17/a-bad-way-of-life-or-a-life-denied-a-way/
Now here we have two clear statements one rhetorically proposing genocide the second as we shall see leading to proposal of what is legally deemed genocide. McVeigh writing in 2008 has shown that much of this kind of rhetoric is informed by a genocidal logic using the genocide convention from the UN (convention available here http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention/text.htm) in a nutshell the attempt to erode the travellers separate ethnicity amounts to genocide from a legal perspective. This can be seen when we take opposition to traveller halting sites into account:

FG publishes travellers Bill

[URL="javascript:showPlayer('traveller_av.html')"] [/URL]Monday, 5 November 2001 22:38
Fine Gael has published a Private Members Bill to give local authorities greater powers to deal with unauthorised traveller camps. The Bill would also make it easier for land owners to get court orders against caravans being placed on their property without permission.
The party's Housing and Local Government spokeswoman, Olivia Mitchell, said that nothing in the proposed Bill reduces the entitlement of travellers to accommodation, or the obligation on local authorities to provide it.
However, she said that without measures to deal with large illegal encampments, local authorities would find it more and more difficult to persuade communities to accept official halting sites.
Deputy Mitchell said that the Bill was primarily aimed at controlling mass movements of travellers who leave permanent accommodation to carry out business activities on public amenity land.
She said that the current legislation, which requires local authorities to provide transient sites for all comers as well as permanent sites for indigenous travellers, is too open ended.
Her proposals would allow local authorities to serve notice on anyone to remove a temporary dwelling from any public place which is not designated for such dwellings, and obliges them to serve notice if the number involved is such as to obstruct or interfere with an amenity or facility.
The occupier of the dwelling would not have to be named in the order, and the local authority would be required to remove the dwellings if the order is not complied with.
The other aspect of the Bill would allow private land-owners to apply to the District Court, rather than the High Court, for an exclusion order against anyone putting caravans on their land without permission.
Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil has questioned Deputy Mitchell's credentials. Dublin South West deputy Chris Flood claimed that Fine Gael's Olivia Mitchell had voted against the adoption of a four year plan to house travellers in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown Council.
Mr Flood said that Deputy Mitchell's stance raised questions about her credentials which party leader Michael Noonan would have to address.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/1105/traveller.html

In this context FG's campaign in the aftermath of the Nally case comes as no surprise:

Nally-case: racist fallout remains a concern Pavee Point remains "concerned at the issues arising in the fallout from the Padraig Nally case and their adverse effect on Travellers in Irish society." "There is no getting away from the fact that the case has contributed in a significant way to the continued demonisation of Travellers in Ireland in general and in rural Ireland in particular."
Referring to the racist discourse whereby politicians "equated Travellers with crime", Pavee Point said this (combined with other anti-Traveller reaction to the deadly attack and subsequent trial) "exposed and exacerbated the fault-line that exists in relations between the Traveller and settled communities."
Martin Collins, assistant director of Pavee Point, said: "Traveller organisations acknowledge and have consistently challenged anti-social and criminal behaviour by Travellers and will continue to do so."
Pavee Point, a Specialist Support Agency to the Community Development Programme, drew up a position paper on the matter and identified the following as issues:

1. Law lecturer, Conor Hanly of NUI Galway, said the accused was fortunate to avoid a murder sentence.
2. Unanswered questions about the court proceedings Pavee found there were a number of worrying aspects in terms of the court proceedings. For example, why was the case the first trial of its kind to be held in Mayo in a hundred years, particularly when there was strong local support for Padraig Nally?
3. The disturbing initial response to Padraig Nally's conviction
   The response to the conviction for manslaughter from Padraig Nally's supporters, some sections of the media and from some politicians was disturbing. It is notable to recall that, at the time of the court verdict, in November, a call was made for a public anti-Traveller rally.
   "It is to the credit of the GAA and the Irish Farmers Association that they did not provide official support for the proposed rally," remarked Pavee. The rally was eventually called off.
   The agency criticised politicians, in particular, Senator Jim Higgins of Fine Gael who made what it describes as "inflammatory statements about Travellers and their responsibility for rural crime." It said the lack of overall political leadership in challenging the anti-Traveller discourse is both worrying and disappointing.
   Pavee abhorred the work of one paper in particular, the Daily Mirror, saying it had “a long track record of printing stories that label minority ethnic groups as criminals.” Other newspapers provided a balanced picture of the case, including said a surprised Pavee Point, the Sunday Independent.
4. The demonisation of Travellers
   The scapegoating of Travellers for all rural crime will no doubt remain in the minds of many as a consequence of this case. Other cases where Travellers come before the law will likely be seized upon as further proof of this hypothesis.
   Yet, as Criminologist Dr. Paul O'Mahony has pointed out, the statistics show that there has been no massive increase in crime in the Irish Republic in the last twenty years. Experience from Ireland and elsewhere shows that the incessant labelling and demonisation of a vulnerable minority contributes to the conditions where attacks and discrimination of that community becomes more accepted and more possible.

In conclusion, Pavee Point highlighted the need to build greater relations between the Traveller and settled communities and said it is "interested in creating a just society for all citizens of Ireland but we cannot do this alone." This article is condensed - for the full length position paper, contact Pavee Point directly. - Spring '06, Issue 17

http://www.changingireland.ie/Nallycase.html

In terms of immigrants these comments need no introduction [EDIT: Slippy Wicket has pointed to credibility issues re spin from Thomas Byrne, reader beware]:

Friday, September 5, 2008TD suggests lump sum for jobless foreigners

MARK HENNESSYFOREIGN UNEMPLOYED workers in Ireland could be given a lump sum payment of up to six months' worth of unemployment benefit if they agree to return home, Fine Gael TD Leo Varadkar has suggested.
"Is there an opportunity to give them three to six months of benefit?" he suggested at the Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
The number of foreign unemployed workers in Ireland now stands at 16 per cent of the total on the Live Register - exactly proportional to the numbers in the workforce.
The proposal is based on a Spanish model announced recently where unemployed foreign nationals from 20 countries have been offered €18,000 to go home on condition they do not come back for three years.
The Dublin West TD insisted that a lump-sum benefit payment should not be used "to force them" to return to their home countries, "but as an option".
Describing Mr Varadkar's intervention as "very, very dangerous", Fianna Fáil Meath TD Thomas Byrne said "voluntary repatriation is a new low by Fine Gael".
Later Mr Byrne said: "This comes in the dishonourable tradition of the British National Party. They are the only other party supporting voluntary repatriation."
Fás director general Rody Molloy said EU nationals in Ireland were entitled to "exactly the same rights" as locals.
Irish people working in other EU countries could not be discriminated against either.
He would be "very nervous" about doing anything that "should in any way suggest" that foreign nationals were not welcome in Ireland, even if that was not the intention of the proposal.
He said there was a danger that even a voluntary programme could be misinterpreted and "then you would run into issues about how voluntary it is".
Brid O'Brien, the head of policy and media of the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed, said she would be "very concerned" if "different categories" of unemployed were created.
It emerged last month that the Department of Social and Family Affairs had scrapped paying dole payments directly into claimants' bank accounts in an attempt to curb fraud by foreign and Irish workers who have quit Ireland after losing jobs here.
Since then claimants have had to sign on at post offices weekly - rather than have the payments made automatically into their bank accounts - rather than signing on once a month as happened before.
Irish Times

Also in this context we should consider FG's support for the citizenship referendum which as the authors (Haynes et al.) of the academic paper referred to earlier have shown played into the xenophobic discourse of "abuse of Irish citizenship." (2006 it's a seperate paper to the one above)

So a question to FG supporters why should we trust you with this record of playing the race card, even when the people themselves are not racists there use of this sort of language to play on people's fears is despicable. Does this not make FG itself a racist party, with racist policies as reflected by the discourse it generates as an institution?

Joey the lips

I honestly think this thread will do more for Fine Gael support rather than against it! Sorry!

I am not a fine gael man either!

meglome

I agree with you that Fine Gael are not perfect but I'd be here for the day if I listed all the Fianna Fail faux pas. So while I give you credit for coming up with a different angle for not supporting Fine Gael other than 'sure ya wouldn't want that Enda Kenny fella' ultimately you're just going to make Fianna Fail look bad if people start listing things off.

truebluedub

meglome wrote: »

I agree with you that Fine Gael are not perfect but I'd be here for the day if I listed all the Fianna Fail faux pas. So while I give you credit for coming up with a different angle for not supporting Fine Gael other than 'sure ya wouldn't what that Enda Kenny fella' ultimately you're just going to make Fianna Fail look bad if people start listing things off.

Good, I don't like FF either.

meglome

truebluedub wrote: »

Good, I don't like FF either.

Not to mention there's plenty of things that Labour and other 'socialists' have put their feet into. All a question of degrees really, Fianna Fail being a bastion of probity

thebigcheese22

Fairplay to Truedub for the OP...

I am very wary of the Blueshirts, especially Leo Varadkar, I could see him being Justice Minister, and it scares me! :mad:

old boy

well f.f. and the greens have DEFINITLY proved that they cannot be trusted.

dlofnep

FG are a bunch of slimey twats. No, I wouldn't trust them.

meglome

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Fairplay to Truedub for the OP...

I am very wary of the Blueshirts, especially Leo Varadkar, I could see him being Justice Minister, and it scares me! :mad:

You must be terrified outta your mind with our current government.

thebigcheese22

meglome wrote: »

You must be terrified outta your mind with our current government.

You have no idea!

slippy wicket

OP most of the articles mentioned are either totally taken out of context or are written in an unbalanced fashion.

It seems that from your point of view it is unacceptabe to be critical of travellers. I know of Paddy Kavanagh and he is no racist. There is a long back history there, of problems with different travellers going back over 10-15 years.
From the next article, are we to assume that Olivia Mitchell is a racist because she dares to say the travellers should live up to their responsabilaties as well as have their rights.
Also traveller ethnicity is a vile pc myth!!!
I think you have guessed what colour shirt i am wearing.

truebluedub

slippy wicket wrote: »

OP most of the articles mentioned are either totally taken out of context or are written in an unbalanced fashion.

It seems that from your point of view it is unacceptabe to be critical of travellers. I know of Paddy Kavanagh and he is no racist. There is a long back history there, of problems with different travellers going back over 10-15 years.
From the next article, are we to assume that Olivia Mitchell is a racist because she dares to say the travellers should live up to their responsabilaties as well as have their rights.
Also traveller ethnicity is a vile pc myth!!!
I think you have guessed what colour shirt i am wearing.

So a question to FG supporters why should we trust you with this record of playing the race card, even when the people themselves are not racists there use of this sort of language to play on people's fears is despicable. Does this not make FG itself a racist party, with racist policies as reflected by the discourse it generates as an institution?

As you can see I specifically exonerate the individuals of racism laying the blame at a party that is institutionally racist and plays the race card with reckless abandon. The policies of FG voiced by Olivia Mitchell correspond to a legal definition of genocide, which does not require any killing merely the enforced erosion of an ethnic culture.

Do you have any respected authorities to back your view that traveller's do not count as an ethnicity because I've got McVeigh, I can throw in Bryan Fanning's 'Racism and social change in the Republic of Ireland' 2002 which pointed me to Olivia Mitchell's campaigns.

In my view you can be critical of individual traveller's who have been found guilty after facing due process, not of the entire ethnic group.

slippy wicket

Its just my opinion. I have absolutely no problem with travellers as a group, just that i believe they are a social group rather than an ethnic group.
I have done quite a lot of business with travellers, buying and selling, and i would have to say, that like the rest of society, there are only a few bad apples.
It is unfortunate that those bad apples cause so much trouble for the rest of the community.

Just for the record, the article to do with Leo Varadkar seems to be more about the spinning and twisting of his idea by T. Byrne ff.

Personally i have always had the view that it does not matter where you are from, as long as you make every attempt to contribute to your society.

dlofnep

slippy wicket wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with travellers as a group, just that i believe they are a social group rather than an ethnic group.

"An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage"

Travellers have a shared heritage, customs and language.

Of course they are an ethnic group.

dresden8

Can we trust Fine Gael?

We'd want to get away from this crap of trust.

Keep an eye on the b@st@rds every step of the way.

the butcher

Anyone but FF at this stage. If thats all you have to complain about FG....id be looking at more important things, jobs, economy, corruption, builders+banks, public sector reform, without them we cant do a thing and be paying off a debt for decades due to FF

is_that_so

So a FG councillor expresses a not uncommon view of Travellers. A FG TD also expresses opposition to trespassing and proposes legislation to control it, also a sentiment many people could relate to. All of a sudden racism is the key to the next election. Now if this was about running the country the question might have some validity but some random linked column inches do not a racist party make. Nor does it make it true.

truebluedub

is_that_so wrote: »

some random linked column inches do not a racist party make. Nor does it a make it true.

Actually a sample found using several keywords.

is_that_so

Either way not much of a basis to pose a question on the suitability of a party to govern. If they were shown to be completely corrupt and incompetent then there would be cause for concern. TBH some councillors have only their "cute hoor" ability and little in the way of intelligence.

dsmythy

So are they big evil racists or a party more in touch with what ordinary people actually think and say in private? They were on the right side of the citizenship referendum and are right to point out the responsibility that lies on the traveller community themselves to change from within. Sounds to me that they have the finger on the pulse of the country.

truebluedub

is that so - I'll post on corruption sometime tomorrow, I'm fact checking a rough work version.

dsmythy - Racism is racism whether it is popular or unpopular.

Sticky Wicket - I edited the original post to reflect your point about Thomas Byrne spinning LV's remarks and left the quote intact to let people make up their own minds.

kowloon

dresden8 wrote: »

We'd want to get away from this crap of trust.

Keep an eye on the b@st@rds every step of the way.

Agreement: eagerness to take political office is the first indication that they can't be trusted.

Liam Byrne

I have no problem with individual people, but the fact of the matter is that in many regards Traveller Representative Groups are responsible for some of the issues that they claim to defend against.

A traveller is drunk and disorderly in a pub and gets thrown out.
Pavee Point claims he was singled out because he was a traveller.

A bunch of travellers leave a seaside resort in a stinking pile of rubbish.
Pavee Point claims that they had no choice because travellers deserve their holidays too and there were no facilities there.

A traveller is shot while trespassing on someone's property, and rather than looking into why the guy was there.
Pavee Point claim that he was shot "because he was a traveller".

Result : the public hear that unacceptable, antisocial behaviour is acceptable to Pavee Point, ergo the entire population of travellers.

In effect, they suffer the same problem that FF have, in that by not disowning and dealing with the proportion of scum that every walk of life have, they are seen to condone it, and therefore give the whole lot a bad name.

So FG have basically voiced an opinion that is held by lots of people (their voters) and are castigated for it ?

Still WAY better than FF, who don't seem to give a boll*x what the public think, feel or want.

FACTS
Some Irish are scumbags
Some immigrants are scumbags
Some politicians are scumbags
Some travellers are scumbags
Some religious order people are scumbags
Some Dublin people are scumbags
Some Limerick people are scumbags

All facts - and BTW, I'm from Limerick. So I'm not pointing fingers here; the fact is that many people would automatically slur my city and its 99% decent population.....but THAT'S not racism, for some reason ? If it were a country it would be, but because it's a city it's not.

So I know what it's like to have a tiny minority affect your reputation, and for people to be "racist" and prejuducial. But my reaction to anyone like that is to say "F**k off, I'm not one of them"......why don't the traveller organisations do likewise ?

And in all cases we - as a society - should dump the politically-correct rubbish and deal with scumbags, regardless of their colour, location, religion, background, age, profession - so that they are viewed as their own group, rather than dragging down the groups that they happen to belong to.

If FG said "all travellers are scumbags", I'd challenge them, but this just seems like a American-election style crappy point-scoring attempt by FF to cast a slur on FG.

Pathetic.

truebluedub

Liam Byrne - And what about the proposal of cultural genocide? And I've already indicated I'm not FF.

dsmythy

truebluedub wrote: »

dsmythy - Racism is racism whether it is popular or unpopular.

People have different views on what is and is not racist. The citizenship referendum wasn't racist and travellers need to not just look for rights but deal with responsibility too like every other person in Ireland.

meglome

truebluedub wrote: »

is that so - I'll post on corruption sometime tomorrow, I'm fact checking a rough work version.

dsmythy - Racism is racism whether it is popular or unpopular.

Sticky Wicket - I edited the original post to reflect your point about Thomas Byrne spinning LV's remarks and left the quote intact to let people make up their own minds.

It's not racist to point out that something like 20% of the prison population are travellers and they only make up a few percent of the population. I have no problem with travellers but the facts are as they are. There's a big difference between someone not being politically correct enough for the bleeding hearts and being a racist. There seems to be some confusion of the two here. Personally I'm against racism and overbearing political correctness.

IIMII

truebluedub wrote: »

Can we trust Fine Gael?

I didn't read on beyond this question, but the answer is no.

meglome

truebluedub wrote: »

Liam Byrne - And what about the proposal of cultural genocide? And I've already indicated I'm not FF.

There are many people in this country that are very worried about the numbers of non nationals in the country. I have no idea if racism plays a part in individuals thinking on this but they are entitled to their opinion no matter.

meglome

IIMII wrote: »

I didn't read on beyond this question, but the answer is no.

And you'd trust whom instead?

turgon

So Olivia Mitchell says travellers must endorse their rights as well as responsibilities and thats racism.

Please.

rant_and_rave

Utter rubbish. I hereby invite all Travelers to camp out in truebluedub’s back yard.