Car private sale - no VRC, previous owner will not answer calls/texts/mails...

NowWhat?

Mods, please move this thread if this is not the appropriate section. I was not sure if this falls under "motors" or is more suitable for the various financial sections...

Ok, so a couple of weeks ago, I bought a car from a private seller on adverts.ie... Went out, met the seller, inspected the car and decided to take it. I had a friend with me and he drove the car back to my place while I gave the seller a cheque for the agreed amount. The seller said that he/she was going to send me the Vehicle Registration Certificate the next day, along with the receipt for a new tax disc they had paid for but were still waiting on, etc... Fair enough, along with my friend we drove home. I preferred to fill in the details on the VRC myself and send it to Shannon, since I could then have a photocopy of it while I wait for it to be returned, etc...

A few days went by and I received nothing from the seller so I contacted them... They then said that they were still waiting for my cheque to clear in their account, before signing over the car to a stranger, which would be a stupid thing to do. Ok, fair enough...

However, at this stage, 7 working days have passed since the cheque was lodged. The money left my account 4 working days ago which I imagine means they now have the money. Cheques should take no longer than 5 working days to clear right?

I contacted the seller yesterday and they ignored all texts sent throughout the day. I called them this morning and they do not answer - left a voicemail and still no answer. Called from a hidden number (as they would recognize my number) and still no answer...

I paid by cheque so I assume I can get a copy of my cheque from my bank, as proof of payment. I also had a witness with me. I only have the seller's name and mobile number though - I have however found out where they work (something they are not yet aware of). There's also a chance they will be leaving the country in a number of weeks...

So what are my options here? I have the car in my driveway, with a valid NCT but tax expired since 04/09 and no idea if I'll be able to ever get the VRC from the seller, who seems to be a complete scammer IMO... Any suggestions would be welcome.

Voodoomelon

Probably stating the obvious, but go to where the seller works and ask for them by name?

cjt156

Did you see the VLC? Is it possible he's sent it direct to Shannon? (as he is supposed to do). It can take several weeks before the new VLC arrives back to the new owner.

NowWhat?

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Probably stating the obvious, but go to where the seller works and ask for them by name?

I'm planning on doing that very soon but even then, they could just refuse to speak to me as I would have to go through the company's reception, etc. Even if we have a face-to-face at this point, what am I supposed to do? Break their teeth?

seamus

I'm going to state this at the outset - you're not entitled to have possession of the VRC from the seller. The obligation is on the seller to fill in your details on the VRC and send it to Shannon. Then you receive the VRC with your name on it, in the post. He is not under any obligation to give it to you.

If you filled in your details on the VRC, then he may have sent it off himself. So wait about six weeks. If you didn't fill in your details, then give the guy about two weeks.

In either case, if you haven't heard from him and you haven't received the new VRC, you can contact the place yourself in Shannon and transfer ownership of the vehicle in your name.

The vehicle is now legally yours - possession of the VRC does not give someone ownership of the vehicle - so the seller gains no benefit from holding onto the VRC.

NowWhat?

cjt156 wrote: »

Did you see the VLC? Is it possible he's sent it direct to Shannon? (as he is supposed to do). It can take several weeks before the new VLC arrives back to the new owner.

Is it VLC or VRC by the way?

Anyway, did see it, but we agreed they would send it to me instead and I could post it to Shannon myself. I've checked motortax.ie even today and no changes of ownership in the last three months are logged yet.

And if they had in fact sent it off (which I'm aware could take up to 3-4 weeks to then get back to me), how hard is it to answer a text stating that's what they did? The sudden shut down of any communication from the seller is what has me worried...

NowWhat?

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to state this at the outset - you're not entitled to have possession of the VRC from the seller. The obligation is on the seller to fill in your details on the VRC and send it to Shannon. Then you receive the VRC with your name on it, in the post. He is not under any obligation to give it to you.

Ok, that's fine - I haven't bought a car in Ireland before so I can't say I'm 100% clear on the process. The seller also had apparently not sold a car before (and did seem genuine at the time) so I'm guessing they are in the same boat as me on not being too clear on sending the thing...

seamus wrote: »

If you filled in your details on the VRC, then he may have sent it off himself. So wait about six weeks. If you didn't fill in your details, then give the guy about two weeks.

I haven't filled in my details...

seamus wrote: »

In either case, if you haven't heard from him and you haven't received the new VRC, you can contact the place yourself in Shannon and transfer ownership of the vehicle in your name.

The vehicle is now legally yours - possession of the VRC does not give someone ownership of the vehicle - so the seller gains no benefit from holding onto the VRC.

Would I contact Shannon after a full two weeks/six weeks or when exactly? I know I can get the car insured right now, but can I get it taxed while this is being sorted out? Current disc dates to 04/09 so I wouldn't want to be driving around without a valid one...

And in the scenario that the previous owner just leaves the country and never bothers notifying Shannon of the change of ownership, how do I establish my ownership? Is simply calling them with the details enough?

Savman

Cash/Bank Draft when buying a car tbh.

daveharnett

Cheques can take quite a bit to clear. Even when the money 'seems' to be in your account, it might not really be. Not a great way to go about a private sale tbh.

OP I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for another day. It could be something as simple as a dead mobile battery.

If he's still not responding by tomorrow, have a word with the local garda station. Don't panic, just let somebody know.

And just to be on the safe side - until the seller does get back to you, secure the car while you're at home (have the missus block it in with her car or whatever) - since the seller knows your address, it could just be a matter of turning up with a spare key to 'retrieve' it.

seamus

NowWhat? wrote: »

Ok, that's fine - I haven't bought a car in Ireland before so I can't say I'm 100% clear on the process. The seller also had apparently not sold a car before (and did seem genuine at the time) so I'm guessing they are in the same boat as me on not being too clear on sending the thing...

Yeah, a lot of people wouldn't be sure what to do, even when they've sold a car before

Would I contact Shannon after a full two weeks/six weeks or when exactly? I know I can get the car insured right now, but can I get it taxed while this is being sorted out? Current disc dates to 04/09 so I wouldn't want to be driving around without a valid one...

Aye, it's tough to say when, really. If you contact them after two weeks, they may tell you to wait and see if the certificate turns up. It's a little bit of a hole in the Irish process in that you can buy a car but you can't tax it for nearly two months at the earliest. Gardai are usually good about it if you tell them you've just bought it, but if you're a foreigner with a foreign accent you might have some trouble.
I would perhaps wait until the end of this week, and if you've still heard nothing, give shannon a ring and ask them what you can do.

And in the scenario that the previous owner just leaves the country and never bothers notifying Shannon of the change of ownership, how do I establish my ownership? Is simply calling them with the details enough?

It should be, but I've never done it. You'll need the chassis number and reg number from the plate at the very least, but give them as much info as you have.

daveharnett also makes some good suggestions - Maybe just mention it to the local Garda station. If the car is reported stolen by the seller, the Gardai will think twice before seizing it from you. I doubt the guy has your address, so I wouldn't worry too much about blocking it in. Though you could just disconnect the battery.

-Chris-

Go to the Vehicle Transaction section on http://www.motortax.ie and see if he's done the change of ownership.

Kartale

Conact dept of transport to see if they have received VLC yet. they will tell you this even if had not been processed yet Tel 061 365000.
If not received then visit guy at work , google his number to see if any other cars for sale, he may be a dealer as well

rai555

Can somebody tell me, who is the ovner of the vehicle legally now - if the transfer takes up to 6 weeks to make? Say the car has accident or speeding fine - who to blame ? It's a grey area in meaning slooooow transfer

NowWhat?

daveharnett wrote: »

Cheques can take quite a bit to clear. Even when the money 'seems' to be in your account, it might not really be. Not a great way to go about a private sale tbh.

I am realizing that now... Bank draft is the preferred option I assume? That said, most info I can find online states a maximum of 5-6 working days for a personal cheque to clear - plus the fact that the money left my account 4 working days ago makes me think that it should have reached their account at this point.

daveharnett wrote: »

OP I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for another day. It could be something as simple as a dead mobile battery.

TBH, I think I have done so. My earlier texts were from 10:30 yesterday and still no answer. I'll try PMing them through adverts.ie as well, though they don't seem to check their account too often...

daveharnett wrote: »

If he's still not responding by tomorrow, have a word with the local garda station. Don't panic, just let somebody know.

Should I be going down that route at this point though? And shouldn't I get a copy of the cheque first to establish the transfer of funds, etc if talking to the Gardai?

daveharnett wrote: »

And just to be on the safe side - until the seller does get back to you, secure the car while you're at home (have the missus block it in with her car or whatever) - since the seller knows your address, it could just be a matter of turning up with a spare key to 'retrieve' it.

Yep, already got extra locks on the wheel/gear shift as my paranoia started taking over .

seamus wrote: »

Gardai are usually good about it if you tell them you've just bought it, but if you're a foreigner with a foreign accent you might have some trouble.

I'm half Irish but sound a bit too American for my own good ... My concern is that the tax disc on the car is dated 04/09 so I'd stick out like a sore thumb... AFAIK, the car can be taken off you if tax is out by more than two months...

seamus wrote: »

I would perhaps wait until the end of this week, and if you've still heard nothing, give shannon a ring and ask them what you can do.
It should be, but I've never done it. You'll need the chassis number and reg number from the plate at the very least, but give them as much info as you have.

Thanks for all the advice - I really appreciate it.

I'm hoping things do get resolved but wanted to get some input on what to do in the meantime. I can understand these things taking time and I'm willing to even accept that maybe the cheque has not yet cleared but the unwillingness of the seller to get back to me in any way has me worried.

seamus

rai555 wrote: »

Can somebody tell me, who is the ovner of the vehicle legally now - if the transfer takes up to 6 weeks to make? Say the car has accident or speeding fine - who to blame ? It's a grey area in meaning slooooow transfer

Whoever's driving the vehicle at the time is to blame, regardless of who owns it.

The vehicle legally belongs to the OP. There is zero benefit in holding onto someone else's VRC.

Henry Ford III

seamus wrote: »

...The vehicle legally belongs to the OP....

Debatable I'd suggest.

OP should never have taken the car without seeing the VLC, signing it as the new owner, and seeing it posted to Shannon.

Seller should never have handed over the car without cleared funds.

A real mess.

seamus

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Debatable I'd suggest.

It's not. Money has changed hands, a contract has been fulfilled. The VRC is irrelevant.

mik_da_man

Really?
So if I bought a car for a friend and they filled all their details on the VLC the car would still be mine?

Omcd

There's some sort of affidavit you get sign to formally declare your ownership of the car if the seller hasn't played ball with the documentation.

If you didn't put your details on the VLC, it's unlikely he has done anything with it, because he needs those.

Shannon will tell you that the change of ownership legally happens when they recieve the VLC (more specifically the exact time the post man comes in the door with it), its not the date on the form, so according to them, in this intervening period, in their eyes and in the eyes of the Guards the seller is reponsible for penalty points etc etc even though the buyer would have possession of the car. Obviously this relates to cases where the drivers identity was not established at the time of the offence, ie if pulled by a Guard then it will be clear whos driving, but if a Gatso camera then its the registered owner is responsible unless they can get someone else to agree otherwise. However I would assume this could be challenged if the buyer has signed the original VLC that states the date of when the ownership transfer actually took place.

NowWhat?

Omcd wrote: »

There's some sort of affidavit you get sign to formally declare your ownership of the car if the seller hasn't played ball with the documentation.

Thanks, Omcd - do you have any specific info on this? Anyone?

I haven't signed the VRC so really, I would think that the current owner would be keen to get it sorted ASAP as well, since they would be liable for any tickets, M50 tolls, etc, right?

TBH, I'm pretty sure the previous owner is not a dealer and is not looking to "retrieve" the car back or anything but the worst case scenario is that they will simply leave the country without giving a crap about getting any of the paperwork sorted - so in that case, I'm trying to figure out what I can do to be fully legal and on the road...

Omcd

NowWhat? wrote: »

Thanks, Omcd - do you have any specific info on this? Anyone?

I haven't signed the VRC so really, I would think that the current owner would be keen to get it sorted ASAP as well, since they would be liable for any tickets, M50 tolls, etc, right?

TBH, I'm pretty sure the previous owner is not a dealer and is not looking to "retrieve" the car back or anything but the worst case scenario is that they will simply leave the country without giving a crap about getting any of the paperwork sorted - so in that case, I'm trying to figure out what I can do to be fully legal and on the road...

Contact the Vehicles Registration Office in Shannon, they will give you more details.

Henry Ford III

seamus wrote: »

It's not. Money has changed hands, a contract has been fulfilled. The VRC is irrelevant.

I don't agree. What contract? A verbal one is worthless.

OP may be the benficial owner, but until such time as the name is changed on the VLC legal ownership remains with the seller.

DaMonk

find a gatso van and drive passed it repeatedly at 100mph. That should get the sellers attention..

seamus

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't agree. What contract? A verbal one is worthless.

A contract of sale. A verbal one is perfectly valid. Backed up by the fact that the seller now has money and the buyer now has a vehicle. It falls within the remit of contract law. The buyer is now the legal owner. If you agree to give me something for X amount of money and I give you the money, and you give me the item, the item is now legally mine. The name on the VLC does not and can not supersede the contract.

Conversely, if the buyer's cheque had bounced, but the VLC had been transferred into his name, the vehicle is still not legally his because his part of the contract has not been fulfilled.

OP may be the benficial owner, but until such time as the name is changed on the VLC legal ownership remains with the seller.

The VLC has no link with ownership in law, i.e. possession of a VLC or having a VLC in your name does not confer ownership upon you.

A common scam people have tried (and still try) with insurance companies it to buy a high-performance vehicle and put the VLC in the name of a parent. Then the parent gets full insurance on the vehicle and the child is added as a named driver. It has happened a number of times where the child has crashed the vehicle and their insurance has been declared invalid because the child owned the vehicle and therefore was not honest with the insurer.

hustlergraham

"There's some sort of affidavit you get sign to formally declare your ownership of the car if the seller hasn't played ball with the documentation"

Thats very true. I bought a car about 7yrs ago and had the same problem. I had to ring Shannon,they sent me out a form that had to be filled in by a 'Commissoner For Oaths'. Sent it back to Shannon then got the VLC two weeks later.

the_syco

NowWhat? wrote: »

My concern is that the tax disc on the car is dated 04/09 so I'd stick out like a sore thumb... AFAIK, the car can be taken off you if tax is out by more than two months...

If you're driving it around, yes. If it's not on a public road, no.

whiterebel

DaMonk wrote: »

find a gatso van and drive passed it repeatedly at 100mph. That should get the sellers attention..

:pac: Preferably if the Gatso is parked right under the toll gantry of the M50......

NowWhat?

hustlergraham wrote: »

"There's some sort of affidavit you get sign to formally declare your ownership of the car if the seller hasn't played ball with the documentation"

Thats very true. I bought a car about 7yrs ago and had the same problem. I had to ring Shannon,they sent me out a form that had to be filled in by a 'Commissoner For Oaths'. Sent it back to Shannon then got the VLC two weeks later.

Cool, seems it may come to that - I'll wait another couple of days then, that'll be a complete two weeks from the sale. I'll contact Shannon then and see what they say. The problem is if they tell me to wait six weeks or something...

the_syco wrote: »

If you're driving it around, yes. If it's not on a public road, no.

...that's the problem: it might take weeks to get this sorted, so the car isn't going anywhere besides the driveway...

But thanks for the advice everyone - at least I know what I should be looking out for next time .

Henry Ford III

seamus wrote: »

A contract of sale. A verbal one is perfectly valid. Backed up by the fact that the seller now has money and the buyer now has a vehicle. It falls within the remit of contract law. The buyer is now the legal owner. If you agree to give me something for X amount of money and I give you the money, and you give me the item, the item is now legally mine. The name on the VLC does not and can not supersede the contract.

Conversely, if the buyer's cheque had bounced, but the VLC had been transferred into his name, the vehicle is still not legally his because his part of the contract has not been fulfilled.

The VLC has no link with ownership in law, i.e. possession of a VLC or having a VLC in your name does not confer ownership upon you.

A common scam people have tried (and still try) with insurance companies it to buy a high-performance vehicle and put the VLC in the name of a parent. Then the parent gets full insurance on the vehicle and the child is added as a named driver. It has happened a number of times where the child has crashed the vehicle and their insurance has been declared invalid because the child owned the vehicle and therefore was not honest with the insurer.

I'm aware of all of that, particularly the insurance scam.

It's still not clearcut though. Seller could try and fudge, saying there was no contract, the payment was a business loan or investment maybe and the car given as security against it. Transfer of ownership was never intended.

It's a question of interpreation of the facts and intent.

hustlergraham

You will get it sorted man it will just take a while. It took me nearly 2 or 3 months,and remember you can still tax the car. Best of luck.

NowWhat?

hustlergraham wrote: »

It took me nearly 2 or 3 months

Ouch . Good to hear it can be sorted though, otherwise I'm left with a heap of scrap metal really...

hustlergraham wrote: »

and remember you can still tax the car

Can you? How exactly? If I go into the motor tax office with valid insurance, don't they need the previous (current) owner's name and address? I don't have their home address...

rebel.ranter

NowWhat? wrote: »

......don't they need the previous (current) owner's name and address? I don't have their home address...

Jeez, if I was buying privately the first thing I would want to know is the seller's address. That is one serious golden rule you broke there.

Is the car worth much, the reason I ask is because if it has finance owning on the car the car legally belongs to the finance company. They are perfectly entitled to pick it up from outside your house & you have no recourse.

NowWhat?

It's not worth that much, no. And yes, I know I should have gotten the seller's address now, but there's not much I can do about it any longer...

BTW, the seller is indeed actively avoiding any contact. I PMed them on adverts a couple of hours ago and they logged into their account about a half hour ago. No reply at all... So much for a "dead phone battery" argument or anything like that...