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Commemorate 1798 with a 'United Irishmen' Day petition

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245

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    #32
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Ooooh Enlightenment Republicanism, my favourite. Can we hang some Catholic priests from the lamposts for decoration comme les Français? It'd send a good clear signal to the Dissenters that it's finally safe to come back to our camp without fear of getting burned as ye heretikef.


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    #34
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    the Irish language

    Why'd you have to go and involve this purely Gaelic football? D'you think Tone's and McCracken's children should've had it beaten into them at school or something?


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    #35
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

    No, this is a trait shared by all countries.


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    #36
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

    Are you Kevin Myers?


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    #37
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    i think its a fantastic idea.
    we should ware green sashes and march in july with the orange order and carry signs saying UNITED WE STAND.
    i think that would solve the sectarian problem.


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Are you Kevin Myers?
    No. But thank you for asking.


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    #39
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No. But thank you for asking.
    So theres at least two people in Ireland who loathe Irelands history in such a way then.


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    #40
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Many people in Ireland do not agree with 1916 or 1798.


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    #41
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Many people in Ireland do not agree with 1916 or 1798.

    True and theres probably some who would prefer if we were a province of the UK once again aswell. You just have to open a history book to see how well that one went for us. The revolutions were a necessity for Ireland to gain her freedoms and to ensure we would never be subjected to another famine caused by British policy, or discriminated against because we hold no allegiance to a British monarch.


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    #42
    Happy Monday
    Registered Users Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Happy Monday


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    True and theres probably some who would prefer if we were a province of the UK once again aswell. You just have to open a history book to see how well that one went for us. The revolutions were a necessity for Ireland to gain her freedoms and to ensure we would never be subjected to another famine caused by British policy, or discriminated against because we hold no allegiance to a British monarch.

    Or subject our people to mass emigration - oh no, except the hundreds of thousands who left in the 50s and 80s.

    Or let our children be subject to institutional abuse - ahem, not that either!

    The 1916 rising went against the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

    In 1916 the reality was that Ireland was a fully functioning unit of the United Kingdom in the way that Scotland for example is today.


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    #43
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Sand wrote: »
    Idealistically, the United Irishmen were non sectarian and admirable in their aims. However, in practise it would be tricky to celebrate 1798 given the atrocities carried out by the Irish camp at Vinegar Hill and throughout Wexford.

    Nobody's looking to celebrate Vinegar Hill or any other battle.
    The point is to take the non-sectarian ideals of the United Irishmen as a starting point for a national day that doesn't revolve around alcohol and paddywhackery.
    Sand wrote: »
    To be honest, if we are looking for an aspirational Ireland that isnt mired in sectarianism, atrocities, hatred and bitterness then we need to start looking at the future rather than sorting through our past hoping to find some angelic period of history.

    If we're looking for an aspirational Ireland then we need to start aspiring towards one.
    All that's been proposed is a national day to acknowledge the tremendously forward thinking ideals of the United Irishmen, a day that could be used by voluntary bodies, charities, NGOs, or individuals to promote their own aspirations.
    It's not Republican. It's not Sectarian. It's unifying and forward looking, promoting a vision of Ireland where all people are equal and all people are free.
    I really can't see a downside to moving a bank holiday by a week and letting the people use it to promote their own visions for Ireland.
    Perhaps its a little too democratic for some people's liking, I don't know.


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    #44
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Happy Monday wrote: »
    Or subject our people to mass emigration - oh no, except the hundreds of thousands who left in the 50s and 80s.

    Or let our children be subject to institutional abuse - ahem, not that either!

    The 1916 rising went against the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

    In 1916 the reality was that Ireland was a fully functioning unit of the United Kingdom in the way that Scotland for example is today.

    There is a lot wrong with our country today and a lot of problems that need to be addressed, a lot of leaders who have abused their power and privelege for personal gain. Believe me i'm as angry as anyone how we've been misruled and many of our citizens mistreated.

    However under British rule over 1 million Irishmen (a conservative estimate) died between 1845 and 1850. The British army had armed regiments exporting food out of Ireland while people were dying all over the country from starvation.

    Do we really want these people controlling us again?


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    #45
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    Unless they are all frozen and can be revived, I don't think that would be a problem.


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    #46
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    The thing about selective quoting is that you lose all impact when the full quote is in the same post. to substitute the common name of Irishman in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. The only way that can be construed as sectarian is by highlighting that it doesn't included Jews, Muslims, Hindus and whoever else. That can be fixed though.

    And just so we're clear - a belief in Irish independence and a desire to unite the country are not sectarian goals. There exist protestant nationalists, you know.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    Unionism is sectarian..

    Nope. Theres catholics in the Conservative and Unionist party across the water, for instance......


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    #47
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Otacon wrote: »
    Unless they are all frozen and can be revived, I don't think that would be a problem.
    Hilarious! Seriously a return to British rule would be disastrous for us. In a time of recession and cutbacks the Westminister Govt would be more than happy for Ireland to bear the brunt rather than have the 'more important' people from London and SE England having to suffer.


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    #48
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    So theres at least two people in Ireland who loathe Irelands history in such a way then.
    I don't "loathe Ireland's history". I've frequently made the point that if we as a nation spent more time looking optimistically to the future rather than wallowing in seething resentment of the past, we'd be in a much better state in the present.


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    #49
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't "loathe Ireland's history". I've frequently made the point that if we as a nation spent more time looking optimistically to the future rather than wallowing in seething resentment of the past, we'd be in a much better state in the present.

    Yet the OP has worded a pretty reasonable and grounded call for a petition for all Irishmen of all backgrounds to sign this as a way of maybe moving forward yet that is wallowing in the past.....

    I agree there are some people who like to look at the past but ironicly its not the OP and the people who think this is a good idea.


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    #50
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    We're Irish. We don't do leaving things in the past.

    Show me a country which does. Please. I think we are remarkably forward looking these days. Anti-Irish comments are unwelcome too I think. Travel to any country in the world and it won't take you too long to dig up petty nationalistic opinions even amongst otherwise perfectly affable people. We are no different or worse.


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    #51
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Saw this mentioned on another board and thought I'd give it a bit of an airing here.
    Seems like a decent idea to me. Move the June bank holiday forward by a week in honour of the vision of the United Irishmen.
    No cost to taxpayer, ideal opportunity for voluntary groups to do something on that day to promote equality, minority religions, the Irish language, freedom, human rights and universal brotherhood (and sisterhood, I guess!)

    http://www.petitiononline.com/may1798/petition.html

    I would agree with this idea. I admire the multi-denominational makeup of the United Irishment and their ideals. I think this could be used to promote similar messages today.

    I suppose this makes be a bog-living, backward-looking, insular, rabidly pro-IRA, Guinness drinking twat who sings "A Nation Once Again" at least twice a week.


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    #52
    b12mearse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭b12mearse


    wasn't the orange order introduced to create sectarianism in ireland. they were formed a couple of years before the united irishmen to divide and combat republicanism?


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    #53
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #54
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #55
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Many people in Ireland do not agree with 1916 or 1798.
    True and theres probably some who would prefer if we were a province of the UK once again aswell.
    How depressingly predictable.
    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Nobody's looking to celebrate Vinegar Hill or any other battle.
    :confused: So the choice of 24th May is purely coincidental?


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    #56
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Didn't British colonialists rise up against their masters in the USA? I don't see why people have to dig trenches and hold opinions that belong to a set of opinions. An organisation which set out, on similar grounds to American revolutionaries on certain issues, restrict English influence and encourage people of all classes and religions to unite and act in their own self interest is something everybody on the island today, even chest-beating 400-year old Unionist opinions, should at least respect and not denigrate just because they also proposed ideas to improve the lives of the pre-existing Gaelic population. It makes about as much sense as criticising Daniel O'Connell.


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    #57
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #58
    Jesus1222
    Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭Jesus1222


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    This is obviously true. That's why I said I don't see why everyone has to hold only opinions that belong to sets of opinions. Ie "I'm a Unionist therefore Ireland is British. The United Irishmen = PIRA" belongs to a certain set of opinions and impossible to break down. Ideally, somebody could hold the opinion that "I'm Unionist, I don't believe in what the United Irishmen were about but I respect their opinions and the fact they were made up people of all sects. I can see the point about wanting Ireland to be ruled by the people who live here in their own self-interest and avoiding direct rule from London". Naive utopianism it seems.


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    #59
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,392 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't "loathe Ireland's history". I've frequently made the point that if we as a nation spent more time looking optimistically to the future rather than wallowing in seething resentment of the past, we'd be in a much better state in the present.
    In stark contrast, Britain is now the greatest ally of the United States. I have little doubt its what the Founding Fathers hoped for all along despite a blood splattered grab for Independence.


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    #60
    O'Morris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭O'Morris


    We should just have an Independence day that isn't linked to any particular historical event. We could set the June bank holiday aside as a day to commemorate the sacrifices of all Irishmen and women who dedicated their lives to bringing about an independent Ireland.


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    #61
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    That would just get up the noses of other people that do not agree with an independent Ireland.


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