Ireland team to play USA.

thehighground

Read Dan's post again to see what I've replied to. Leamy (coming back from a major shoulder operation) was in the 22 for the Grand Slam and played 70 mins.

I think Leinster have more immediate (and bigger backrow boots) to fill at the moment than Monster. I wouldn't be too excited about the prospect of Leinster's new prop either if one is to go on what was on view this evening.;)

You've seem to have forgotten that Munster have Nick Williams who hopefully, will be fully fit to play a part next season.

remus808

thehighground wrote: »

Read Dan's post again to see what I've replied to. Leamy (coming back from a major shoulder operation) was in the 22 for the Grand Slam and played 70 mins.

I think Leinster have more immediate (and bigger backrow boots) to fill at the moment than Monster. I wouldn't be too excited about the prospect of Leinster's new prop either if one is to go on what was on view this evening.;)

You've seem to have forgotten that Munster have Nick Williams who hopefully, will be fully fit to play a part next season.

Baffling.

www.munsterfans.com

NotWormBoy

Leinster's back row future has absolutely nothing to do with Leamy's performance today, or lack of depending on your opinion of it.

thehighground

karmabass wrote: »

Baffling.


www.munsterfans.com

Its in reply to this post. Sorry for baffling you.

He should've been tearing strips out of an inexperienced back-row, but he's not on form. Given that Quinlan's almost done, Wallace is getting older, and Niall Ronan's very inexperienced (despite being 27 (does that make him older than Leamy?)) Munster really really need Leamy on form again.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Read Dan's post again to see what I've replied to. Leamy (coming back from a major shoulder operation) was in the 22 for the Grand Slam and played 70 mins.

I think Leinster have more immediate (and bigger backrow boots) to fill at the moment than Monster. I wouldn't be too excited about the prospect of Leinster's new prop either if one is to go on what was on view this evening.;)

You've seem to have forgotten that Munster have Nick Williams who hopefully, will be fully fit to play a part next season.

I rate Leamy, but I also think he's off form.

Nick Williams, looks pretty meh. He'll be good, that's about it.

Leinster are losing Rocky Elsom, the world's best blindside, but in fairness we're going to get more than 2 seasons out of our other back row forwards. Anyway, we're not talking about Leinster's props, or Munster's or anything, I merely said Leamy's off form and needs a longer time to rest/relax.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I rate Leamy, but I also think he's off form.

Nick Williams, looks pretty meh. He'll be good, that's about it.

Leinster are losing Rocky Elsom, the world's best blindside, but in fairness we're going to get more than 2 seasons out of our other back row forwards. Anyway, we're not talking about Leinster's props, or Munster's or anything, I merely said Leamy's off form and needs a longer time to rest/relax.

You brought up Munster and its backrow problem, not me! Munster usually manage without superstars.

thehighground

NotWormBoy wrote: »

Leinster's back row future has absolutely nothing to do with Leamy's performance today, or lack of depending on your opinion of it.

Touched a nerve have I.

Chucky the tree

How did buckley do at loosehead?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

You brought up Munster and its backrow problem, not me! Munster usually manage without superstars.

Yeah, and my point was this:

Denis Leamy is very very good. We all know that. He's had a horrendous season, with injuries to his shoulder and knee. He looked off the pace and poor out there. As did many others.

It seemed to me, and this is me saying this, would it not make sense for a guy like that to be rested for these games? What benefit is he getting from this? A dodgy game against the Septics that doesn't in any way matter? Surely resting back in Munster, and light training, physio and fitness training might help him recover the zest and power that made him so good?

thehighground

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How did buckley do at loosehead?

He did very well - he will be Ireland's next loosehead. If you go on tonight's showing. Court & Ross are just not at the races.

NotWormBoy

thehighground wrote: »

Touched a nerve have I.

Not particularly. I just thought I'd point out that someone thinking that Leamy being off form doesn't have to be an attack on Munster rugby. Which appears to be how you have taken it. If anything, I'd say that Dan or Podge were the ones that touched a nerve.

Much like a lot of people, I think Leamy is an excellent player who happed to be a bit off form today. Every player goes through a rough patch, or has a bad game, and I fully expect Leamy to get over it and get back to being a beast of a player.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yeah, and my point was this:

Denis Leamy is very very good. We all know that. He's had a horrendous season, with injuries to his shoulder and knee. He looked off the pace and poor out there. As did many others.

It seemed to me, and this is me saying this, would it not make sense for a guy like that to be rested for these games? What benefit is he getting from this? A dodgy game against the Septics that doesn't in any way matter? Surely resting back in Munster, and light training, physio and fitness training might help him recover the zest and power that made him so good?

I'd say he probably needs a proper pre-season and playing time with a proper team and not a thrown together one. I doubt if he could just not show up on an Irish tour. He is contracted by the IRFU and they would have needed his experience, particularly as he has missed most of last season.

And you did bring up Alan Quinlan & Wally and Munster. Stop trying to slither out of having a pop at Munster.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

He did very well - he will be Ireland's next loosehead. If you go on tonight's showing. Court & Ross are just not at the races.

:rolleyes: He most definitely will not be Ireland's next loosehead, even on tonight's showing. He'll never be more than a bench option there.

He seemed to do well enough in the scrums. As far as I could tell the penalties at the scrum were against Ross. He wasn't as prominent in the loose as he could have been, though in his defence it was a poor team performance in general. I'd call it an encouraging performance from him though.

thehighground

NotWormBoy wrote: »

Not particularly. I just thought I'd point out that someone thinking that Leamy being off form doesn't have to be an attack on Munster rugby. Which appears to be how you have taken it. If anything, I'd say that Dan or Podge were the ones that touched a nerve.

Much like a lot of people, I think Leamy is an excellent player who happed to be a bit off form today. Every player goes through a rough patch, or has a bad game, and I fully expect Leamy to get over it and get back to being a beast of a player.

Danthefan wrote Leamy's international career off. I think that is somewhat premature.

It was Joe that took the pop at the Munster backrow (bringing up Quinlan & Wally who are no where near the USA tonight).

An awful lot of people must have Dan on ignore or something

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

It was Joe that took the pop at the Munster backrow (bringing up Quinlan & Wally who are no where near the USA tonight).

I would love to know what your definition of "taking a pop" is. All he said was that given Munster's backrow resources at the moment, they need Leamy on form.

NotWormBoy

thehighground wrote: »

Danthefan wrote Leamy's international career. I think that is somewhat premature.

It was Joe that took the pop at the Munster backrow (bringing up Quinlan & Wally who are no where near the USA tonight).

An awful lot of people must have Dan on ignore or something

Dan said that his place in the Ireland squad was gone. That's not the same as calling time on his career. Its merely saying that on current form, he's not good enough to be in the Ireland squad. I'm not saying I agree with him, but he's not writing off Leamy's career, and anyone who thinks that that was what was posted is probably incredibly sensitive about someone dissing Leamy. My guess would be that they're sensitive because Leamy's a Munster player.

As Podge has said, thats not taking a pop at the Munster back row. Again, it smacks of being sensitive about someone criticising Munster players. Leamy is an integral part of Munster rugby at the moment, because he's a fantastic talent who has done really well for Munster. If he's not on form, then its a problem for them.

Before someone asks why we're not concentrating on the rest of the players who underperformed tonight, and there were many, its because Leamy is also a prominent part of the Irish national setup at the moment. Supporters of Irish rugby, both Leinster and Munster, want to see Leamy do well because on form he's a great player, either at 6 or 8 - and while Heaslip seems to have the spot nailed down at 8 for the moment, competition never hurt anyone. So whats best for Irish rugby and Leamy, we want to see. Even if it means him not playing tonight.

Anyways, since I don't think this is going anywhere with you, I'll leave it at that for this thread and I won't post again.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

I would love to know what your definition of "taking a pop" is. All he said was that given Munster's backrow resources at the moment, they need Leamy on form.

We were discussing Ireland. Why bring up Munster? Joe obviously doesn't know much about Munster rugby as he would have remembered that Nick Williams is contracted to Munster.

Chucky the tree

thehighground wrote: »

He did very well - he will be Ireland's next loosehead. If you go on tonight's showing. Court & Ross are just not at the races.

hopefully Kidney won't go on tonight's showing then!

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

I'd say he probably needs a proper pre-season and playing time with a proper team and not a thrown together one. I doubt if he could just not show up on an Irish tour. He is contracted by the IRFU and they would have needed his experience, particularly as he has missed most of last season.

And you did bring up Alan Quinlan & Wally and Munster. Stop trying to slither out of having a pop at Munster.

I didn't take a pop at Munster, nor would I slither out of such a thing had I done so. If it has reached the stage that stating that David Wallace and Alan Quinlan are old is perceived as an attack on Munster, I seriously have to ask what we're meant to say about them?

Denis Leamy is an experienced international, a crucial part of his province's team and is off form and physically clearly not yet entirely ready.

Wilson, Best, O'Brien et al are all available after their various finals, assuming they're not injured. Hell, drag out Johnny O'Connor and try Niall Ronan at 8 or something, but Leamy's poor form does him no favours, nor did it do Ireland any.

As someone who likes Denis Leamy and sees him as a crucial part of Ireland's future, I see no reason to put him through games like this which he's clearly not ready for.

thehighground wrote: »

We were discussing Ireland. Why bring up Munster? Joe obviously doesn't know much about Munster rugby as he would have remembered that Nick Williams is contracted to Munster.

Nick Williams does not look anywhere near the level of the other back-row forwards at Munster.

Maybe in another season or two, but come on, you're a Munster fan, surely you've seen Nick Williams play? He's not at the standard of the guys he's meant to replace.

thehighground

NotWormBoy wrote: »

Dan said that his place in the Ireland squad was gone. That's not the same as calling time on his career. Its merely saying that on current form, he's not good enough to be in the Ireland squad. I'm not saying I agree with him, but he's not writing off Leamy's career, and anyone who thinks that that was what was posted is probably incredibly sensitive about someone dissing Leamy. My guess would be that they're sensitive because Leamy's a Munster player.

As Podge has said, thats not taking a pop at the Munster back row. Again, it smacks of being sensitive about someone criticising Munster players. Leamy is an integral part of Munster rugby at the moment, because he's a fantastic talent who has done really well for Munster. If he's not on form, then its a problem for them.

Before someone asks why we're not concentrating on the rest of the players who underperformed tonight, and there were many, its because Leamy is also a prominent part of the Irish national setup at the moment. Supporters of Irish rugby, both Leinster and Munster, want to see Leamy do well because on form he's a great player, either at 6 or 8 - and while Heaslip seems to have the spot nailed down at 8 for the moment, competition never hurt anyone. So whats best for Irish rugby and Leamy, we want to see. Even if it means him not playing tonight.

Anyways, since I don't think this is going anywhere with you, I'll leave it at that for this thread and I won't post again.

All I pointed out (to Dan) that I did not agree with him and even just coming back from a fairly serious injury/unfit/not up to his best, he made the bench for the 6Ns and played a big part in the final game that actually won the GS.

Whereas Dan just wrote Leamy off without any justification as to why he thought he was finished as an international player.

I'm not worried about Leamy and Munster. I think he is fine and just needs a proper pre-season next year.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Whereas Dan just wrote Leamy off without any justification as to why he thought he was finished as an international player.

Quinlan and Ferris at 6 and Heaslip at 8.

He needs to outperform at least one of that trio.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I didn't take a pop at Munster, nor would I slither out of such a thing had I done so. If it has reached the stage that stating that David Wallace and Alan Quinlan are old is perceived as an attack on Munster, I seriously have to ask what we're meant to say about them?

I'm scratching my head as to why you brought up the Munster backrow in the first place.

Denis Leamy is an experienced international, a crucial part of his province's team and is off form and physically clearly not yet entirely ready.

I don't think he is as bad as you make out.
Wilson, Best, O'Brien et al are all available after their various finals, assuming they're not injured. Hell, drag out Johnny O'Connor and try Niall Ronan at 8 or something, but Leamy's poor form does him no favours, nor did it do Ireland any.

As someone who likes Denis Leamy and sees him as a crucial part of Ireland's future, I see no reason to put him through games like this which he's clearly not ready for.

This is how RTE rated Leamy for the Welsh game:

Sub: Denis Leamy
Circumstances meant there was no room for him in the starting back row but Ireland lost nothing when he came in and may have to get creative with team selection to get him in the side as well as the other three in future. An iffy first five minutes or whenhe came in, but once he got up to speed, Leamy was huge in the contact area.
Our Rating: 9

For the record - Ferris got 8 and Heaslip got 8.5.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0322/player_rating_ireland.html

Nick Williams does not look anywhere near the level of the other back-row forwards at Munster.

Maybe in another season or two, but come on, you're a Munster fan, surely you've seen Nick Williams play? He's not at the standard of the guys he's meant to replace.

Nick Williams is coming back from a fairly long term injury. Hopefully, he will come right.

remus808

The following post is sponsored by the big blue chip on my shoulder.

Cian Healy



Marcus Horan



Daylight



...Tony Buckley.

thehighground

Chucky the tree wrote: »

hopefully Kidney won't go on tonight's showing then!

If we're going on what was on show tonight!

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

I'm scratching my head as to why you brought up the Munster backrow in the first place.

Because his physicality will be needed to make up for the inevitable slight decline in that of Quinlan and Wallace over the next season. Thus in my mind, it benefits neither Ireland nor Munster to have him out in the US.

This is how RTE rated Leamy for the Welsh game:

Sub: Denis Leamy
Circumstances meant there was no room for him in the starting back row but Ireland lost nothing when he came in and may have to get creative with team selection to get him in the side as well as the other three in future. An iffy first five minutes or whenhe came in, but once he got up to speed, Leamy was huge in the contact area.
Our Rating: 9

For the record - Ferris got 8 and Heaslip got 8.5.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0322/player_rating_ireland.html

One game, dude!

He's not had a good season, injuries being the reason.

Nick Williams is coming back from a fairly long term injury. Hopefully, he will come right.

Hopefully, but not definitely.

Trojan

Lads, quit with the Leinster-Munster crap again.

--

I was really disappointed with our performance, particularly many individuals, but we have *never* been able to raise our game when taking on minnows. It seems to be a part of our sporting psychology. Maybe it's the other side of the "amazing win when massive underdogs" coin. I'd love if we could learn the killer instinct that lets other teams put 100 points on the board in these games.

thehighground

Trojan wrote: »

Lads, quit with the Leinster-Munster crap again.

--

I was really disappointed with our performance, particularly many individuals, but we have *never* been able to raise our game when taking on minnows. It seems to be a part of our sporting psychology. Maybe it's the other side of the "amazing win when massive underdogs" coin. I'd love if we could learn the killer instinct that lets other teams put 100 points on the board in these games.

We put 50 on Canada in the AIs and we learned nothing. These games are very useful. You learn very quickly what you've got. Bob Casey (from his interview) knows that was his last Ireland cap.

Chucky the tree

Trojan wrote: »

Lads, quit with the Leinster-Munster crap again.

--

I was really disappointed with our performance, particularly many individuals, but we have *never* been able to raise our game when taking on minnows. It seems to be a part of our sporting psychology. Maybe it's the other side of the "amazing win when massive underdogs" coin. I'd love if we could learn the killer instinct that lets other teams put 100 points on the board in these games.

Has any team ever put 100 points on USA in rugby?

themont85

thehighground must be one of the most sensitive posters on here...

Leamy will come good again. A solid pre season and he'll be flying. Munster still need to get guys like Peter O'Mahoney involved quickly for the future because the facts are Quinlan has 1 year/18 months left.

Against an Eddie coached team i wasn't suprised it was close enough, he is a very good coach and will do very well with them.

thehighground

themont85 wrote: »

thehighground must be one of the most sensitive posters on here...

Leamy will come good again. A solid pre season and he'll be flying. Munster still need to get guys like Peter O'Mahoney involved quickly for the future because the facts are Quinlan has 1 year/18 months left.

Against an Eddie coached team i wasn't suprised it was close enough, he is a very good coach and will do very well with them.

I don't know why you keep referring to my 'sensitivity' unless its a reflexion of your own attitude. This is a message board - people can disagree with your point of view, with (hopefully) some sort of reasoning as to why you think that way.

Dan just threw out a remark about Leamy being finished as an international (which I know to be a rubbish comment). Joe threw out a remark about Leamy's poor form. Whereas I, who would probably watch most Munster games twice has come to no such conclusion. I even pulled up a player ratings for when he played for Ireland which gives him an exceptionally high rating for the 6Ns and confirms my view that Leamy did fine, and certainly not what Joe posted here (part in bold).

Hell, drag out Johnny O'Connor and try Niall Ronan at 8 or something, but Leamy's poor form does him no favours, nor did it do Ireland any.

And Johnny O'Connor's time is gone as an international.

Trojan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Has any team ever put 100 points on USA in rugby?

Not that I know of. I'm mainly thinking of NZ-Japan and NZ-Portugal(?) for the 100+ pointers.

I was well impressed to see us put 60 points on the Pacific Islands back in '06 - that's the kind of form I'd love to see us take to all "minnow' type games where we're massive favourites.

I know today's situation was different, development tour type game, but still it'd be nice to put up a cricket score. Ah well, maybe after a few more years of winning mentality

Leslie91

thehighground wrote: »

He did very well - he will be Ireland's next loosehead. If you go on tonight's showing. Court & Ross are just not at the races.

Eh......... no way Jose.

Cian Healy is a shoe in now at loose head. He'll supplant Horan in the Autumn.

Hopefully Ross will be the replacement for Bull.

NickNolte

themont85 wrote: »

thehighground must be one of the most sensitive posters on here...

I've added him to my ignore list some time ago for a reason. If you're responding to him, do me a favour and don't quote him. Kind of defeats the reason I blocked him.

themont85 wrote: »

Leamy will come good again. A solid pre season and he'll be flying.

A reasonably insignificant game at this stage in the season is hardly good benchmark for Leamy. Particularly as he hasn't been well. I'd imagine he'll be back to form for next season.

themont85 wrote: »

Against an Eddie coached team i wasn't suprised it was close enough, he is a very good coach and will do very well with them.

I'd say Eddie enjoyed holding us to 17 points. Something of a moral victory.

Serenity Now!

NickNolte wrote: »

I'd say Eddie enjoyed holding us to 17 points. Something of a moral victory.

I'd say the States given the teamsheet out there would indeed be happy with most of their performance. Defence-based and constantly in Ireland's face. Their lineout is poor though. Was surprised at how badly Hercus played too.

Leslie91

Just saw Kidney's post match interview on Setanta. Xclnt. Reading between the lines he said we were crap and we have found out that some players are never gonna make it and that some might.

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Has any team ever put 100 points on USA in rugby?

We beat them like 80 - very little a couple of seasons ago.

And England but 100 points on them in the 99 WC. Good ol' Wikipedia.

Apparently two of their team plays for Trinity.

thehighground wrote: »

And Johnny O'Connor's time is gone as an international.

I'd probably agree, but what's the difference between you saying that and Dan saying Leamy's done?

Both are flankers who've been superb, both are now a bit off form, but surely they can come back?

Trojan wrote: »

Not that I know of. I'm mainly thinking of NZ-Japan and NZ-Portugal(?) for the 100+ pointers.

I was well impressed to see us put 60 points on the Pacific Islands back in '06 - that's the kind of form I'd love to see us take to all "minnow' type games where we're massive favourites.

I know today's situation was different, development tour type game, but still it'd be nice to put up a cricket score. Ah well, maybe after a few more years of winning mentality

I think we didn't have the players to do that.

Stringer had a poor game I thought, and there was very little good ball for Keatley, less for the centres, and you'd have been surprised that Dowling and Murphy were on the pitch. They just didn't get the service to put a big score on Canada.

thehighground wrote: »

We put 50 on Canada in the AIs and we learned nothing. These games are very useful. You learn very quickly what you've got. Bob Casey (from his interview) knows that was his last Ireland cap.

I thought he and MOD did well?

Serenity Now!

Leslie91 wrote: »

Just saw Kidney's post match interview on Setanta. Xclnt. Reading between the lines he said we were crap and we have found out that some players are never gonna make some might.

Got what they wanted from the tour so.

Trojan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think we didn't have the players to do that.

Stringer had a poor game I thought, and there was very little good ball for Keatley, less for the centres, and you'd have been surprised that Dowling and Murphy were on the pitch. They just didn't get the service to put a big score on Canada.

Agreed, but the quality of players we had were definitely worth a shut-out and at least 30 points to the good.

Kidney is just a masterful interviewer.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

He did very well - he will be Ireland's next loosehead. If you go on tonight's showing. Court & Ross are just not at the races.

Are you writing off Cian Healy?

Trojan wrote: »

Agreed, but the quality of players we had were definitely worth a shut-out and at least 30 points to the good.

Don't agree to be honest, I don't think the quality of our team was that high. The Churchill Cup team could easily be better.

anonymous_joe

Trojan wrote: »

Agreed, but the quality of players we had were definitely worth a shut-out and at least 30 points to the good.

Kidney is just a masterful interviewer.

Very true. A backrow of Muldoon, Ronan and Leamy should have given a lot more ball for the backs to use...

zAbbo

It's always difficult to play in a scratch side, although there are no excuses for the poor handling skills seen over two tests.

All you can hope to get out of this is a few swimmers when you try players in at the deep end.

Ideally you'd look to integrate 1-2 players to a full test side, but with these 2 games and the Churchill Cup - I think it's a good bench mark of players who might be able to integrate with the full squad.

From that, we've learned that Prop is a more serious situation than first thought, with Ross and Court looking distinctly lack lustre, Buckley by all means was streets ahead of them.

In the second row, Bob Casey showed what a long hard season he has had - he has not impressed in an Ireland jersey at all. MOD was their for the experience side and realistically won't make a test 22. Caldwell while given limited gametime - has always impressed me.

I only saw 10 minutes but can someone explain what Ross did?
This guy was in the premiership dream team but it sounds like he got hammered by some clown?

It looked to me like Buckley at loosehead was hampering the Ireland scrum but I did only see a few minutes.

Chucky the tree

It's the end of a long season for everyone and their in usa, I cant see them busting a hump in that sort of weather for 80 minutes to put on a cricket score.

bleg

zAbbo wrote: »

MOD was their for the experience side and realistically won't make a test 22. .

did you see the 6 nations?

Sangre

Kick off time was 1pm in California. That is absolutely demented. You'd be exhuausted after 10 minutes in that heat.

overmantle

Any news of how it's going?

zAbbo

bleg wrote: »

did you see the 6 nations?

Yes and if we're building for a RWC we'd want to have some reserve lock who's closer to POC/DOC than MOD.

Stev_o

Can we all agree that Gaffney is still a crap attack coach then?

chupacabra

Stev_o wrote: »

Can we all agree that Gaffney is still a crap attack coach then?

What? Gaffney wasnt even there last week, and flew in late this week, he had NO time get the team into the attacking shape he wanted to. But yeah, im not defending him, he is still a rather single minded attack coach, but he had no time on this tour.

Look to the Churchill cup now to see if we can salvage anything.

danthefan

Gaffney is quite obviously doing something right.