Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers

Riskymove

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And like I said, there are LOTS of issues that she may not be objective on if her - or her party - take this stance on this case; which implies

(a) murder is acceptable

(b) murder of a Garda (which had a capital punishment on it long after the murder of a member of the public, so it's viewed as more serious) is acceptable

(c) murderers and "ordinary decent criminals" should be released out the back door

(d) it's ok to intimidate potential witnesses and subvert the course of justice

First of all I have no particular interest in Ms Ferris or SF

But the above is exaclty what the media is playing on, theya re asking her this particular question as the know of the sensitivity involved in SF and the history/baggage it has...they know she wont condem it and they are then happy to imply the above..no need for real journalism or questioning SF policies (which I would like to see more of, because for me thats of greater concern to me)

if they ask her about any other murder or gangland killing etc I am sure she would give her personal views on murder etc which I doubt are the above

It is not up to Ms Ferris to answer for all of the wrongdoings of the IRA over the years.

However, if SF are to move on in this country and grow politically they must acknowledge such things but I think its too soon for them to do that with the support they have at present

walshb

Its cheap and tacky desperation IMO.

They obviously have feck all else to
confront her with so they bring up stuff from
years gone by which she herself wasn't even
privy to.

Like has been said, why should she have to speak on
behalf of actions committed NOT by her and with
nothing to do with her.

We all know the SF stance on the issue, get over it, why
keep asking the same question on one single act?

partyguinness

Well that is one my main points also..what are they expecting? For her to turn around and condemn it?

As I asked earlier, why dont they ask her to condemn the killing of Mountbatton in 1979 for example? Can we imply that was ok?

Its just easy and quiet frankly lazy journalism. If they want to embarrass her why dont they focus on her views of solving the banking problems or getting people back to work which is far more relevant in this election.

We know what SF stand for and what their views/policies are...if you have serious objections to them ...you have a choice. Nobody is forcing you to vote or even like SF.

Blazer

I have to admit she came across as very knowledgeable and well spoken during her radio interviews.
However she's in Sinn Fein..a so-called democratic party who waged a war of terror in both North & South and Britain without a mandate from the people.
The same party that was a legitimate party then sanctioned the armed robbery (Securior) and also covered up the Robert McCarthy murders.
Then I remember..yep..these are scum I'll never vote for same as 90% of Ireland's population.

FTA69

Yerrah, if in doubt throw up McConville or McCabe, always great issues to get a rise like. This issue has been indeed done to death, what happened to Jerry McCabe and 3,000 odd other people happened in the context of a long, political conflict in which all sides got their hands very dirty indeed. We can spend all day rehashing the circumstances of all those deaths, that won't serve anyone.

Republicans believe that the IRA campaign was justified, that doesn't equate with Republicans believing that every single IRA action was 100% correct. It wasn't, there are plenty of things they did that were plain wrong. That having been said, people aren't going to be jumping through hoops engaging in condemnation politics.

Personally I'd be interested in seeing a Truth and Reconciliation Committee.

Riskymove

partyguinness wrote: »

Its just easy and quiet frankly lazy journalism. If they want to embarrass her why dont they focus on her views of solving the banking problems or getting people back to work which is far more relevant in this election.

We know what SF stand for and what their views/policies are...if you have serious objections to them ...you have a choice. Nobody is forcing you to vote or even like SF.

+1 my point exactly

partyguinness

They could say quiet easily that the British waged a war of terror in Ireland without a mandate from the Irish people...but thats whole different ball game..;)

Mr.Micro

Most people know what SF are about and vote for them knowingly. If SF condemned the atrocities or murders that the IRA/SF carried out or were involved with then they would no longer be SF. Their beliefs or mantra is like a religion to them and they would need years of therapy to wean them off the creed, like those who are rescued from a sect.

djpbarry

FTA69 wrote: »

Republicans believe that the IRA campaign was justified, that doesn't equate with Republicans believing that every single IRA action was 100% correct. It wasn't, there are plenty of things they did that were plain wrong.

Was the murder of Jerry McCabe one of those things?

partyguinness

djpbarry wrote: »

Was the murder of Jerry McCabe one of those things?

Guess you have to ask them that.

Its a case of all or nothing. Unconditional 100% supoprt and loyalty. Thast what towing the party line is about.

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I want to put a small caveat on my "thanks", which mainly referred to your first sentence.


Ironically (again, similar to an FF member) if she left the party BECAUSE of disagreement with these issues and the need to condone stuff like this, then she MIGHT actually get my vote.

So which is worse - having a personal view which is despicable, or having a decent view but selling out and keeping that view to yourself and spouting a party line...?

Either way, it doesn't make her look good and doesn't bode well for her ability to make decisions that reflect our views or to govern.

So she doesn't get a vote as a result.

Simple, really.

i don't think it's that simple really because there are often a myriad of reasons for voting for a party yet for you being ambivalent about murder makes all the other issues as to why you might vote for a party redundant.

i hear you say there is no relevant comparison between a party like Sinn Fein that tacitly condones murder and Fianna Fail for example

well, to some allowing shannon to be used by the us army, while they prosecuted the iraq war, was, if not tacitly approving murder, was facilitating it.

so what about the people who might have been against this yet still gave there votes to Fianna Fail because of more pressing concerns. are they to be condemned?

also, what of the party candidates that may have been against the use of shannon privately but towed the party line. do you despise them?

horseflesh

FTA69 wrote: »

Yerrah, if in doubt throw up McConville or McCabe, always great issues to get a rise like. This issue has been indeed done to death, what happened to Jerry McCabe and 3,000 odd other people happened in the context of a long, political conflict in which all sides got their hands very dirty indeed. We can spend all day rehashing the circumstances of all those deaths, that won't serve anyone.

Republicans believe that the IRA campaign was justified, that doesn't equate with Republicans believing that every single IRA action was 100% correct. It wasn't, there are plenty of things they did that were plain wrong. That having been said, people aren't going to be jumping through hoops engaging in condemnation politics.

Personally I'd be interested in seeing a Truth and Reconciliation Committee.

Although I expect we're a million miles apart WRT Sinn Fein, that's a very good post.

FTA69

Was the murder of Jerry McCabe one of those things?

Yeah, shooting guards is wrong.

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

i hear you say there is no relevant comparison between a party like Sinn Fein that tacitly condones murder and Fianna Fail for example

well, to some allowing shannon to be used by the us army, while they prosecuted the iraq war, was, if not tacitly approving murder, was facilitating it.

Funny you should mention that, because - even before we saw the complete f**k up that FF did with the economy, that was - to me - a legitimate reason not to vote for them.

nacho libre wrote: »

so what about the people who might have been against this yet still gave there votes to Fianna Fail because of more pressing concerns. are they to be condemned?

Stop muddying the water - we never said we were "condeming" Ferris or her voters. The "condemnation" applies to the act (i.e. the murder of mcCabe, the invasion of Iraq), and the "we want to ask why", or "we're not voting for you as a result" applies to those who refuse to condemn the atrocity.

nacho libre wrote: »

also, what of the party candidates that may have been against the use of shannon privately but towed the party line. do you despise them?

I think they are chicken-****s and cop-outs, but I don't "despise" them. I would quiz them at every opportunity as to why they refuse to represent me or my views, and I will refuse to vote for them as a result.

So if you're trying to imply that I don't treat like with like - stop. Because I do.

Bricriu

To Raiser (original poster):

Get a life, will you, and let's all move on.

Souljacker

Bricriu wrote: »

To Raiser (original poster):

Get a life, will you, and let's all move on.

Would you include Jerry McCabe's wife and children in that statement? Raiser's made a valid point and constant pressure should be put on all SF members until they acknowledge the hurt they've caused the McCabe family and make a formal apology.

There is no grey issues here anyone who condones such a murder has no scruples imho, and if they hide behind the 'it's part policy,' it's even worse.

FTA69

Souljacker wrote: »

Would you include Jerry McCabe's wife and children in that statement? Raiser's made a valid point and constant pressure should be put on all SF members until they acknowledge the hurt they've caused the McCabe family and make a formal apology.

Why should Sinn Féin apologise? They didn't kill Jerry McCabe at all, the Provisional IRA did. And in fairness to the IRA they already made an apology to all the families of the civilians they killed during the conflict.

There is no grey issues here anyone who condones such a murder has no scruples imho, and if they hide behind the 'it's part policy,' it's even worse.

I don't think anyone condoned the killing of McCabe, they simply refused to be drawn into condemnation of the IRA campaign. That's a different matter entirely.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Why should Sinn Féin apologise? They didn't kill Jerry McCabe at all, the Provisional IRA did.

No-one asked Ferris or SF to apologise; they asked her to condemn it. So the above is yet more water-muddying.

For example : no-one asked Ireland, the UK or France to "apologise" for 9/11; it wouldn't make sense, because they didn't do it.

But they all condemned it, as any decent human being would.

So quit trying to equate condemning with apologising.

FTA69 wrote: »

And in fairness to the IRA they already made an apology to all the families of the civilians they killed during the conflict.

:rolleyes: McCabe wasn't killed "during the conflict", or as part of it. So they haven't apologised for it.

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't think anyone condoned the killing of McCabe, they simply refused to be drawn into condemnation of the IRA campaign. That's a different matter entirely.

It IS a different matter entirely, and Ferris wasn't asked to condemn the IRA campaign. She was asked to condemn the murder of a Garda during a botched criminal raid.

Mr.Micro

FTA69 wrote: »

Why should Sinn Féin apologise? They didn't kill Jerry McCabe at all, the Provisional IRA did. And in fairness to the IRA they already made an apology to all the families of the civilians they killed during the conflict

Its all ok then the families must be delighted and satisfied that all those people were needlessly murdered? :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

Bricriu wrote: »

Get a life, will you

If only Jerry McCabe could do that......

Sand

Provos dont condemn murders they carried out, they only condemn murders other people carry out. This amorality and cynical doublethink has always been the Provo policy.

Ferris is simply sticking to the playbook of the murderous organisation she represents.

Our man in Havana

I asked a local SF candidate the same question and this is what he said, "Officially we can't condemn the killings but unofficially and personally I do condemn the killings of all peoples in NI and here."

gcgirl

This is why a lot of people will not vote for SF !! Myself included SF at my locality work hard i have to say and if they condoned the killing of Jerry McCabe and the killing of other innocent people i would consider voting for them!!

SeanW

oscarBravo wrote: »

An unequivocal condemnation of every murder by every murderer of any political persuasion.

It's not a lot to ask of someone who's supposedly committed to democracy. Think of it as an absolute minimum standard that I'd expect from anyone looking for my vote.

+100

QFT

FTA69

Liam Byrne,

No-one asked Ferris or SF to apologise; they asked her to condemn it. So the above is yet more water-muddying.

Eh, what are you on about lad? Souljacker said, "constant pressure should be put on all SF members until they acknowledge the hurt they've caused the McCabe family and make a formal apology."

I was responding to his comment alone. So chill the bap a second.

McCabe wasn't killed "during the conflict", or as part of it. So they haven't apologised for it.

He was killed in an IRA operation that was part of the wider conflict.

She was asked to condemn the murder of a Garda during a botched criminal raid.

She was asked to condemn an IRA operation that was part of the wider IRA campaign. As I said, I doubt Sinn Féin are going to be drawn into condemnation politics about incidents that occured 13 years ago.

Mr Micro,

Its all ok then the families must be delighted and satisfied that all those people were needlessly murdered?

It's better than f*ck all isn't it? As far as I'm aware the conflict has come to an end and as such expressions of remorse are part and parcel of that process. It's more than the Brits have done anyway, I didn't see them apologising a soldier shot Majella O'Hare, aged 13, and blew off the back of her head. Or after a cop shot Seán Downes in the face with a plastic baton round from five feet away and killed him.

We could sit here all day and exchange stories, thousands of them. If you're so concerned about apologies you'd be better off focussing on those who refuse to issue them rather than those who have made genuine expressions of remorse.

Koloman

walshb wrote: »

Can we move on!

When she condemns the murderous killers. Maybe then!

The "can't we move on?" argument has got a good airing this week from the church! Strange bedfellows don't you think? We can't move forward until we deal with our past.

walshb

Koloman wrote: »

When she condemns the murderous killers. Maybe then!

The "can't we move on?" argument has got a good airing this week from the church! Strange bedfellows don't you think? We can't move forward until we deal with our past.

So, it all boils down to one lady to condemn one act committed 13 years
ago that had ZERO to do with her? God, we are desperate for a bit of news!

When will folks realise the policy of SF was NOT to condemn the actions of the IRA. Like it or not, that is their policy, so asking the question or seeking
condemnation is simply a ploy to create ridiculous news, for news sake!

InFront

As someone else said, I would love to vote for SF (at local level). They are often known to be a hardworking bunch on the ground and I wouldn't actually have a problem with their history if they could only leave it in the past.

Failing to condemn the murder of a guard killed during a post office robbery is nothing short of a scumbag response tbh.
Pity, because otherwise she seemed like a nice girl.

Sand

So, it all boils down to one lady to condemn one act committed 13 years
ago that had ZERO to do with her? God, we are desperate for a bit of news!

Its down to confronting the reality that Provo policy is that they have the right to rob banks, and if anyone gets in their way they'll get whats coming from them. And theyre looking for your vote.

For all the talk of move on, its the Provos who are locked in a mindset where it is unthinkable for them to condemn the murder of a Garda.

stepbar

Bond-007 wrote: »

I asked a local SF candidate the same question and this is what he said, "Officially we can't condemn the killings but unofficially and personally I do condemn the killings of all peoples in NI and here."

.... well then maybe it's time the issue was raised amoungst party members thus clarifying the issue once and for all.

Specifically in terms of the Garda McCabe killing, if Sinn Fein cannot bring it upon themselves to have respect for the people who uphold the laws of the land (i.e by condemming acts of crime upon same), then I don't see why any member of the same party should be fit to hold a title of office.

People are sick to the back teeth of the bare faced lies Sinn Fein has been feeding the public over the years. It's now time for Sinn Fein to acknowledge that the IRA / Sinn Fein were effectively one and the same, acknowledge the innocent people the IRA killed and condemm same. It's a very simple gesture to make TBH.