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Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers
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Why should Sinn Féin apologise? They didn't kill Jerry McCabe at all, the Provisional IRA did.
1. To clarify imo Sinn Fein should apologise for saying the murder of Jerry McCabe wasn't a criminal act and in doing so causing further agony to the McCabe family. Liam Byrne and me have differing opinons on this (I only ever claim to speak for myself in this section) I am and will continue to demand an apology for what SF have done to the McCabe family.
2. Imagine your spouse was murdered in the line of duty and then after that terrible event members of a political party came out and said this wasn’t a criminal act.
Do you honestly believe SF have not caused hurt to the McCabe family through their statements on Jerry's murder?And in fairness to the IRA they already made an apology to all the families of the civilians they killed during the conflict.
And in fairness I like many others in families in NI the Republic and Britain have suffered at the hands of the PIRA have told the provos where they can shove their meaningless apology. I would be utterly amazed if you can find a source showing that one person who suffered who was grateful for that empty Provo apology.I don't think anyone condoned the killing of McCabe, they simply refused to be drawn into condemnation of the IRA campaign. That's a different matter entirely.
Failing to condemn is condoning, there is no ambiguity in the matter otherwise this issue wouldn't cause such controversy. The Murder of Gerry McCabe in cold blood was wrong, it should be condemned unequivocally, anything short is disrespectful to the memory of Jimmy McCabe.
SF cannot hide behind policy for the shameful statements their political representatives are making. Gerry McCabe was murdered by robbers, being a member of the PIRA should not give you immunity form condemnation.0 -
Why in gods name do you expect someone in Sinn Fein to condem the Prov IRA. its never ever going to happen. Just get over it! Its in the past and thanks to the Good Friday Agreement its time to move forward.
Or tell me would you like to see the provo's back!
Whats past is past....The End!0 -
Maggie Thatcher did quite well in Britain and I don't recall
her ever condemning the deaths of Irish men or women.
...
Sure she sank a ship in the Falklands without breaking sweat
Is Maggie Thatcher running in these elections? Is Maggie Thatcher the standard that we should measure our elected representatives against?0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »Why in gods name do you expect someone in Sinn Fein to condem the Prov IRA. its never ever going to happen. Just get over it! Its in the past and thanks to the Good Friday Agreement its time to move forward.
Or tell me would you like to see the provo's back!
Whats past is past....The End!
No it's not. Your simplistic view shocks me to say the least.0 -
Imagine your spouse was murdered in the line of duty and then after that terrible event members of a political party came out and said this wasn’t a criminal act.
Do you honestly believe SF have not caused hurt to the McCabe family through their statements on Jerry's murder?
There have been loads of people killed throughout the war, both Sinn Féin and the IRA have expressed regret that that conflict occurred and the IRA has atoned for those civilians it has killed. They aren't going to describe the IRA campaign as a "criminal enterprise", because it wasn't.
Now, that's all I'm saying on the issue of the IRA and the conflict because it'll only lead this thread down a well worn road.And in fairness I like many others in families in NI the Republic and Britain have suffered at the hands of the PIRA have told the provos where they can shove their meaningless apology.
So you believe the IRA shouldn't have apologised then? Whether you choose to believe an expression of remorse was genuine or not, that's your own perogative. Perhaps you feel that nobody should make an apology over anything then?0 -
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ferris didn condem the murder of garda mc cable because she is not permitted to by the leadership , sinn fein is a top down party in every sense of the word , you dont get sinn fein voters speaking out of turn let alone party politicians , everything is sanctioned from the leadership , in this regard , sinn fein is not a normal party0
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ferris didn condem the murder of garda mc cable because she is not permitted to by the leadership , sinn fein is a top down party in every sense of the word , you dont get sinn fein voters speaking out of turn let alone party politicians , everything is sanctioned from the leadership , in this regard , sinn fein is not a normal party
It's after opening up a small bit though.0 -
Quote:Mr Micro,
Its all ok then the families must be delighted and satisfied that all those people were needlessly murdered?
Quote
Quote FTA69
It's better than f*ck all isn't it?
It is f*ck all. Do the dirty deeds knowing they are wrong and apologise after. It means nothing. Anybody who votes for SF whilst they still retain their terrorist agenda need to seriously have treatment or counselling, as their agenda is seriously non democratic.0 -
I was responding to his comment alone. So chill the bap a second.
OK, so can we go back on-topic to the fact that there was no apology requested in the interview, merely a request for an understandable and desirable condemnation of a heinous crime.He was killed in an IRA operation that was part of the wider conflict.
We're back to this crap again ?
He was killed in cold blood during an "operation" that had f**k all to do with any struggle. Some scumbags wanted money that they weren't entitled to.
Period.
Initially the IRA denied any involvement in the killing. Gerry Adams agreed with these claims.
Later, when there was a chance that piggybacking on the GFA to get the scum released , there were demands by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness calling for the immediate release of the killers of Garda McCabe under the Good Friday Agreement, the former having previously claimed that they hadn't been involved in an IRA action.She was asked to condemn an IRA operation that was part of the wider IRA campaign. As I said, I doubt Sinn Féin are going to be drawn into condemnation politics about incidents that occured 13 years ago.It's more than the Brits have done anyway, I didn't see them apologising a soldier shot Majella O'Hare, aged 13, and blew off the back of her head. Or after a cop shot Seán Downes in the face with a plastic baton round from five feet away and killed him.
All of which are irrelevant. If I do something and someone down the road does something else, his actions are irrelevant to whether I was wrong and should apologise.....this "but he did something wrong too" is childish.
BUT, I'd suspect that if Toireasa was asked to condemn that one - ANOTHER event that she had nothing to do with - she would be able to.If you're so concerned about apologies you'd be better off focussing on those who refuse to issue them rather than those who have made genuine expressions of remorse.
No, we're not talking about apologies. We're trying to make sure that someone who wants to be elected is worthy of the position and will not corrupt justice. The same goes for FF or the churches, and anyone else who has skeletons in the closet.
Toireasa had loads of stuff in her leaflet about what other people have done for the last 13 years, and how they condoned and turned a blind eye to injustices; if she's entitled to judge and criticise FF on THEIR record and stance on dodgy dealings, then we're entitled to judge her on hers.
If Toireasa and her party can't condemn a murder, and can't distinguish it as a crime, how do we know what other alternative definitions she has in her delusional parallel world ?
She wants OUR vote, remember; she has to convince US.
And don't claim that she doesn't want it, or that SF knows it won't get anything more than its deluded and bitter core support - she sent a letter to me, FFS. She asked me for my vote.
So I'm entitled to ask her questions. And "do you condemn the murder of a Garda" is one of them.0 -
ferris didn condem the murder of garda mc cable because she is not permitted to by the leadership , sinn fein is a top down party in every sense of the word , you dont get sinn fein voters speaking out of turn let alone party politicians , everything is sanctioned from the leadership , in this regard , sinn fein is not a normal party
To be fair, I didn't see a whole lot of FF people clamouring for a clear statement of the truth from Bertie, either, so SF aren't THAT unique.
But while the stuff that FF appear to condone is sickening, it's not quite as sickening as shooting someone in cold blood on a street.0 -
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Which is why a substantial percentage of us will never ever allow the thought of voting for a SF candidate to cross our minds, and they will never ever be a truly mainstream party.Joey the lips wrote: »Why in gods name do you expect someone in Sinn Fein to condem the Prov IRA. its never ever going to happen.
I doubt I'm the only one concerned at the subtext: if we don't stop holding Sinn Féin to the same standard we expect of any other mainstream party, the IRA will be back.Just get over it! Its in the past and thanks to the Good Friday Agreement its time to move forward.
Or tell me would you like to see the provo's back!0 -
Joey the lips wrote: »Why in gods name do you expect someone in Sinn Fein to condem the Prov IRA. its never ever going to happen. Just get over it! Its in the past and thanks to the Good Friday Agreement its time to move forward.
No I expect Sinn Fein to condemn the cold blooded murder of a Garda by criminal robbers. Why do you believe that being a member of the PIRA should give you immunity from all crimes?
To be honest I don't think it's a lot to ask of a party which claims to fully back An Garda Siochana fully that they condemn the murder of one of its members in the line of duty.Joey the lips wrote: »Or tell me would you like to see the provo's back!
Whats past is past....The End!
Gerry Adam's has used that threat before (The haven’t gone away you know') as well but I fail to see how this is relevant to this argument. Surely you're not saying that by questioning the illegal murderous actions of criminals who happened to be in the Provos we run the risk of angering them so much that they'll return in full force to terrorise us again?There have been loads of people killed throughout the war, both Sinn Féin and the IRA have expressed regret that that conflict occurred and the IRA has atoned for those civilians it has killed. They aren't going to describe the IRA campaign as a "criminal enterprise", because it wasn't.
Now, that's all I'm saying on the issue of the IRA and the conflict because it'll only lead this thread down a well worn road.
I take it by your refusal to answer my direct question:Souljacker wrote:'Do you honestly believe SF have not caused hurt to the McCabe family through their statements and stance on Jerry's murder?'
the answer is that SF did cause hurt (in your opinion), extreme hurt to the McCabe family by (in your words) refusing to condemn his murder..
You want a truth commission set up no? Why don't you petition SF (as a supporter?) to petition the Provos to take the first step. Stop the pretence that all provo members were incapable of committing crimes and condemn where condemnation is due. That is the very least SF can do on this matter.
Atone means made up for. The IRA have not made up for murdering civilians otherwise we wouldn’t have the families of the disappeared still begging for information regarding their missing loved ones. How can anyone expect them to simply ‘move on?’FTA69 wrote:So you believe the IRA shouldn't have apologised then? Whether you choose to believe an expression of remorse was genuine or not, that's your own perogative. Perhaps you feel that nobody should make an apology over anything then?
I''m saying that it was meaningless to the victims of the troubles. Again If you can find one source which shows a victims gratatude at that empty Provo apology, so many years too late I'll be very impressed. If the Provos wanted to show real regret they should stop protecting their members who so obviously committed criminal acts such as the murder of Jerry McCabe.
With regards to SF condemning criminal murder, it's expected of them as a party who claims to fully back An Garda Siochana. SF condemning this murder is not an empty gesture (like the apology of the provos), it’s what’s expected of a party in the Republic which claims to back the Gards.0 -
Souljacker wrote: »1. To clarify imo Sinn Fein should apologise for saying the murder of Jerry McCabe wasn't a criminal act and in doing so causing further agony to the McCabe family. Liam Byrne and me have differing opinons on this (I only ever claim to speak for myself in this section) I am and will continue to demand an apology for what SF have done to the McCabe family.
We don't differ that much, and yes - it goes without saying that Sinn Fein have added to the pain in much the same way as the Government added to the pain of those abused by not following up with their resources and demanding the truth and justice, and by being photographed with the scum involved in prison.
And the u-turn in relation to the "non-IRA operation" as soon as it suited their agenda of getting both "political prisoners" (those in jail for their beliefs) and criminal scum (those in jail for breaking the law) back on our streets.
So yes, SF have a lot to answer for; but a condemnation of a murder would at least show that they've changed their two-faced colours.
Of course if people post that a failure of the GFA would result in a return of violence and crime, then it might just all be a sham.......especially as there were two parts to the GFA; us releasing criminals.
If the GFA fails and the IRA views this as a "return" to violence, then all of the criminals released should be returned to jail immediately; after all, if the "experiment" has failed, then EVERYTHING should return to "as it was before", not just them killing people and causing mayhem.0 -
Here Liam we are in total agreement.0
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I'll ask these questions again, aimed at those who think that Toireasa should be under no obligation to condemn crimes and atrocities because they happened before her time and because she had nothing to do with them, as if that were a reason why she'd have "no opinion" on them :
1) Is Toireasa entitled or willing to condemn the holocaust ?
2) Is Toireasa entitled or willing to to condemn 9/11 ?
3) Is Toireasa entitled or willing to condemn the religious orders' abuse ?
4) Is Toireasa entitled or willing to condemn the current Government's corruption, wheeler-dealing and bailouts ?
Because she had NOTHING TO DO with any of the above, either.
If she's even ONCE voiced an opinion on ANY of those, then her stance on the murder of McCabe is untenable.0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »Initially the IRA denied any involvement in the killing. Gerry Adams agreed with these claims.
I believe the IRA Army Council said that it wasn't an operation sanctioned by them, but later said it was sanctioned at a middle-level of the organisation.Later, when there was a chance that piggybacking on the GFA to get the scum released , there were demands by Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness calling for the immediate release of the killers of Garda McCabe under the Good Friday Agreement, the former having previously claimed that they hadn't been involved in an IRA action.
McGuinness and Adams don't speak for the IRA. As IRA prisoners whose actions were committed before the signing of the GFA they are indeed eligible for release. If these men were on a homer (robbery for personal gain) they would have at least been disowned by the organisation, probably a lot worse if they used IRA weapons to bring the organisation into "disrepute" as the parlance goes.
It was an IRA operation, there isn't any real ambiguity about that.All of which are irrelevant. If I do something and someone down the road does something else, his actions are irrelevant to whether I was wrong and should apologise.....this "but he did something wrong too" is childish.
I wasn't engaging in whataboutery. I just said while we're on the issues of apologies and expressions of remorse Mr Micro should first focus on those who say they did absolutely no wrong and refuse to apologise (ie the British government) rather than those who actually did make an apology.
Expressions of remorse are vital in a post-conflict situation. You can decide to accept it or not, that's a personal decision to make. But an apology is better than no apology.No, we're not talking about apologies. We're trying to make sure that someone who wants to be elected is worthy of the position and will not corrupt justice. The same goes for FF or the churches, and anyone else who has skeletons in the closet.
I imagine Toireasa supported the IRA campaign and now she isn't going to go condemning specific acts of what she would probably view as a war situation. Of course you don't suscribe to that analysis, that's your perogative.And don't claim that she doesn't want it, or that SF knows it won't get anything more than its deluded and bitter core support - she sent a letter to me, FFS. She asked me for my vote.
Their core support is largely losing touch with them to be honest.So I'm entitled to ask her questions. And "do you condemn the murder of a Garda" is one of them.
You can ask her or any of the rest of them whatever you want lad. I never said you weren't justified in doing so or anything.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »Only if you refuse to accept that there can never be any shades of grey; that if you hold a position then you must cleave resolutely to its most extreme edge.
If your position is that we must either cling to every vestige of the past, or put it entirely behind us, then we should either break off diplomatic relations with Denmark because of the Vikings, or forget about the abuse of children in care because it was "in the past".
In reality, you draw lines. For some people, perfidious Albion must never, ever be forgiven for 800 years of sins. I think that's a line too far. Yes, and it appears that they stand for murderers over and above law enforcement.
Why does this keep getting brought up? Because it's their current position. When they decide that they will support the forces of law and order rather than those who would murder them - then it's in the past.
Do as I say, not as I do.0 -
In fairness it must be tough on Tessie Ferris and the rest of the poster-child Shinners - there they are running for serious and legitimate political office and they have to been seen to be supporting gangs of lads out robbing Post Offices and shooting Gardaí dead on the streets of Adare, County Limerick, Republic of Ireland......
Quality.0 -
No it's not. Your simplistic view shocks me to say the least.oscarBravo wrote: »Which is why a substantial percentage of us will never ever allow the thought of voting for a SF candidate to cross our minds, and they will never ever be a truly mainstream party. I doubt I'm the only one concerned at the subtext: if we don't stop holding Sinn Féin to the same standard we expect of any other mainstream party, the IRA will be back.Souljacker wrote: »No I expect Sinn Fein to condemn the cold blooded murder of a Garda by criminal robbers. Why do you believe that being a member of the PIRA should give you immunity from all crimes?
To be honest I don't think it's a lot to ask of a party which claims to fully back An Garda Siochana fully that they condemn the murder of one of its members in the line of duty.
Gerry Adam's has used that threat before (The haven’t gone away you know') as well but I fail to see how this is relevant to this argument. Surely you're not saying that by questioning the illegal murderous actions of criminals who happened to be in the Provos we run the risk of angering them so much that they'll return in full force to terrorise us again?
I take it by your refusal to answer my direct question:
the answer is that SF did cause hurt (in your opinion), extreme hurt to the McCabe family by (in your words) refusing to condemn his murder..
You want a truth commission set up no? Why don't you petition SF (as a supporter?) to petition the Provos to take the first step. Stop the pretence that all provo members were incapable of committing crimes and condemn where condemnation is due. That is the very least SF can do on this matter.
Atone means made up for. The IRA have not made up for murdering civilians otherwise we wouldn’t have the families of the disappeared still begging for information regarding their missing loved ones. How can anyone expect them to simply ‘move on?’
I''m saying that it was meaningless to the victims of the troubles. Again If you can find one source which shows a victims gratatude at that empty Provo apology, so many years too late I'll be very impressed. If the Provos wanted to show real regret they should stop protecting their members who so obviously committed criminal acts such as the murder of Jerry McCabe.
With regards to SF condemning criminal murder, it's expected of them as a party who claims to fully back An Garda Siochana. SF condemning this murder is not an empty gesture (like the apology of the provos), it’s what’s expected of a party in the Republic which claims to back the Gards.
I am not getting into a political discussion with 3 people who live in the past! What year was the good friday agreement! How far back do you want to go! Tell you what let revist
Fianna Fail and the dev/ira years
Labour and the official IRA years
The provo's existed cause they had the support of there community and sinn fein supported and failed to condem the provo's. You cannot see it but your closed mind logic is actually fanning the flames of the CIRA and the RIRA. History is past! progress is future. We had the anniversary of the dublin monaghan bombings last week! There is still alligations of garda colusion which has gone unnoticed by the general public! Its amazing the double standards people live by.
Ms Ferris is doing well because politics proves one thing that despite the national agenda by Sinn Fein "All politics is local" otherwise sinn fein would be finished and that is not the case! More Importantly if all politics was not truly local the green party would be leadint the country.
I have no agenda n defending ms ferris I am a dub after all and cannot care about kerry. The one thing that bores the hell out of me is constant rehash rehash and more rehash. You clearly cannot see your adding to the credability and contributing to the rise of the dissidents. But thats fine you clearly know more about politics than me!0 -
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I’m sure Ms. Ferris and her colleagues would be only too happy to condemn those incidents, eh?As far as I'm aware the conflict has come to an end and as such expressions of remorse are part and parcel of that process. It's more than the Brits have done anyway, I didn't see them apologising a soldier shot Majella O'Hare, aged 13, and blew off the back of her head. Or after a cop shot Seán Downes in the face with a plastic baton round from five feet away and killed him.
The IRA has atoned for its sins?!? Are you having a laugh? Why don’t we put that statement to Jerry McCabe’s family and see what they make of it?There have been loads of people killed throughout the war, both Sinn Féin and the IRA have expressed regret that that conflict occurred and the IRA has atoned for those civilians it has killed.
Members of the British government are not asking me for my vote.I just said while we're on the issues of apologies and expressions of remorse Mr Micro should first focus on those who say they did absolutely no wrong and refuse to apologise (ie the British government) rather than those who actually did make an apology.0 -
In fairness it must be tough on Tessie Ferris and the rest of the poster-child Shinners - there they are running for serious and legitimate political office and they have to been seen to be supporting gangs of lads out robbing Post Offices and shooting Gardaí dead on the streets of Adare, County Limerick, Republic of Ireland......
Quality.
There's an easy solution... run as an independent or join another party. Simple!0 -
You can ask her or any of the rest of them whatever you want lad. I never said you weren't justified in doing so or anything.
Thanks for at least admitting this. Like I said, she sent me a letter (addressed to me personally) asking for my vote.
Before I'd consider that, I want to know where she stands on issues of law and order that are important to me.
I'm not in Kerry, but I am in her European "constituency"; so while I don't listen to Radio Kerry, the interviewer was 100% correct in asking her if she condemns criminality and murder.
And since she didn't, she hasn't a hope of getting my vote.
That's not MY fault; it's her's.
And for the record, this isn't (as some people have claimed) an anti-republican stance; if Willie O'Dea sends me a letter looking for support, I'll ask him about supporting Bush's invasion of Iraq against my beliefs, or bailing out bankers with my money against my wishes, or failing to do his duty when Aer Lingus pulled out of Shannon.
People who want to represent us have to get that into their thick heads......they have to represent us.
And to those who imply that no-one listens to their "policies" and focuses on this, I'll ask this questiton : if a drug-dealer or child rapist ran for office with the best policies in the world, would you vote for them ?
Or if that person wasn't a drug dealer or child rapist, but instead had "associates" who were, wouldn't we want to ensure that they condemned those actions before putting them in a position of power ?0 -
Thanks for at least admitting this. Like I said, she sent me a letter (addressed to me personally) asking for my vote.
She asked me for my vote as well, albeit to my face (I know Toiréasa) and I told her straight up that I'm not tied in with or supportive of Sinn Féin. I've a lot of time for her personally, and I wish her the best in her endeavours; she's a very genuine individual.
As I said, your vote is your own, I'm not telling you that you should vote for her, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't think she adequately represents your beliefs then don't vote for her like.And to those who imply that no-one listens to their "policies" and focuses on this, I'll ask this questiton : if a drug-dealer or child rapist ran for office with the best policies in the world, would you vote for them ?
Fairly bogus analogy, but I see where you're coming from. All in all I think we're in agreement really.0 -
I have a simple outlook on who I will not vote for.
1. I dont vote for any party who support or have supported Murders or Thieves so I don't vote for Sinn Fein
2. I don't vote for any party who's members are ex murderers, gun runners or thieves hence i don't vote for Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail. (or Michael Lowry)0 -
I have a simple outlook on who I will not vote for.
1. I dont vote for any party who support or have supported Murders or Thieves so I don't vote for Sinn Fein
2. I don't vote for any party who's members are ex murderers, gun runners or thieves hence i don't vote for Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail. (or Michael Lowry)
And to be fair, you'd have to include Labour on that list, since they merged with Democratic Left.0 -
Fairly bogus analogy, but I see where you're coming from.
Not particularly "bogus"; maybe that part of the original post doesn't FULLY apply given that Toireasa isn't the actual "drug-dealer or rapist" (and since you know her personally I'll take your word for it on that) .... which is precisely why I added the second line:Liam Byrne wrote: »Or if that person wasn't a drug dealer or child rapist, but instead had "associates" who were, wouldn't we want to ensure that they condemned those actions before putting them in a position of power ?
As I said, it doesn't even have to be "associates", either; if FF or FG or anyone else didn't condemn (and then actually refused to condemn) the actions of the religious orders, it wouldn't reflect well on them, either.
But they've condemned those actions without even being asked.....0 -
Fact is, she aspires to represent the people of Ireland South while being a member of a political wing of a terrorist organisation. I dont care how nice she is in person, until she stands up and says that the murder of an unarmed garda is wrong she has no credibility or respect for democracy!
Her "You deserve better" line makes me sick0 -
Hello?Fact is, she aspires to represent the people of Ireland South while being a member of a political wing of a terrorist organisation. I dont care how nice she is in person, until she stands up and says that the murder of an unarmed garda is wrong she has no credibility or respect for democracy!
Her "You deserve better" line makes me sick
Have you been asleep for the last 10 years?
The Provisonal IRA are no longer on the US government's list of terrorist organisations and closer to home, the Independent Monitoring Commission (which is the organ setup to oversee paramilitary decommissioning as part of the GFA) have said:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0903/northpolitics.html..that the IRA army council is 'no longer operational or functional'.
..that the IRA has disbanded its terrorist structures and relinquished 'the leadership necessary to wage war'.
The watchdog's declaration today that the IRA campaign is 'well and truly over'
And of course, they've already confrimed the PIRA have fully decommisioned their weapons.
Wake up, it's 2009 now.0 -
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Hello?
Have you been asleep for the last 10 years?
The Provisonal IRA are no longer on the US government's list of terrorist organisations and closer to home, the Independent Monitoring Commission (which is the organ setup to oversee paramilitary decommissioning as part of the GFA) have said:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0903/northpolitics.html
And of course, they've already confrimed the PIRA have fully decommisioned their weapons.
Wake up, it's 2009 now.
I appreciate all that, but should that not make it easier for her to condemn the murder now that the organisation that Sinn Fein were representing and protecting no longer exists0
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