Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers

Joey the lips

Souljacker wrote: »

The way you phrased that sentence seems to imply you think Ferris is wrong to not condemn the Jerry McCabe murders. Just making an observation.

I completely agree that everyone should be educated on democracy and the right to vote, starting in primary school and continuing right through until a child leaves the education system. Civics classes should also be tied into Adult learning programmes to help the 1000's of people who've been failed by our education system.

You'll have to forgive me but I doubt Ferris's desire to teach the 'poorly educated' how to vote is in anyway altruistic.

Any political party taking on such a role is open to the acquisition of perverting the course of democracy. That's just reality regardless of who the party is.

I wouldn't want the Greens, Labour FG, FF or any political party to be involved in such an action because the option to corrupt exists.

Well you understand what I mean or you would not defend me so no point in discussing by the way its not sinn fein teaching how to vote its the INOU - irish national organisation of the unemployed. It just so happens that many sinn fein members are also active in community groups its most likely why they joined sinn feinn ie to do work in the community!

And there is no perversion when you consider there was no understanding in the first place. The ballot is usually a mock ballot from what i can tell.

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

Toiresa Ferris and her party have actually conducted mock votes to teach the poorly educated and those who cannot understand the voting system how to vote!

Joey the lips wrote: »

by the way its not sinn fein teaching how to vote its the INOU

Jaysus! That sounds like the whole "it wasn't an IRA operation" / "oh yes, it was" / "oh no, it wasn't" fiasco over the said Adare murder all over again.... :rolleyes:

Sand

its most likely why they joined sinn feinn ie to do work in the community!

True, and get some use out of those baseball bats, hurleys and iron bars they had lying around the place.

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not saying I completely agree with you, since I believe that not all working class people are bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian nationalists who condone crime.

But let's just assume that you are correct to at least some extent, because it's true to say that it's the most knackerish of working-class pubs in which you'd hear chants like the idiotic "ooh, ah up the 'ra". :rolleyes:

So there's some truth in what you posted.



Hmmmm, such a noble thing to do, don't you think ?

Did that include a campaign to ensure that elections were held at weekends, so that the educated students who can't get home to vote midweek get their say, or would that have cancelled out the potential gains because they'd be less susceptible to the brainwashing ?

Like I said, if Toireasa wants my vote (and since she asked me personally, she obviously does) she can (a) quit SF and then when released from her "party line" condemn the murder or (b) convince the party that the only way to be taken seriously is to be as voiciferous in condemning such atrocities as they seem to be when it's what they view as "the other side" that committed them.

Well like you say.... There is really no point discussing as a) and b) will never happen! and your vote as her dad proved clearly does not matter!

Joey the lips

Sand wrote: »

True, and get some use out of those baseball bats, hurleys and iron bars they had lying around the place.

More childish ranting i see! well done!

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Jaysus! That sounds like the whole "it wasn't an IRA operation" / "oh yes, it was" / "oh no, it wasn't" fiasco over the said Adare murder all over again.... :rolleyes:

and you catch my jist if you know her that well as you say!

Sand

More childish ranting i see! well done!

Thats a very angry post . You should try to see the lighter side of life sometime.

Diogenes

Ms Ferris works and wants a job as an elected representative for a party that was the the political wing of a paramilitary organisation that still sees nothing criminal about the murder of a police officer during a bank robber undertaken to fund a terrorist agenda.

The fact that they refuse to condemn the murder as a criminal act speaks volumes about their mindset and commitment to genuine progress in this country.

Arguing about her birthdate misses the point, if she doesn't personally think the murder of a Police Officer was a crime, it begs the question what other criminal acts will she willfully ignore. Furthermore, it is damning about SF's party idealogy that they are unwilling to consider this vile act a crime, and unacceptable.

This is about progress, and SF digging in their heels when it suits them, and demanding change when it does.

grenache

I agree that Toireasa Ferris should not have condoned Jerry McCabes killing, but unfortunately she's just towing the party line. I'm sure it doesn't matter to many voters from a practical point of view though. But Shinners seem to have a fairly warped sense of justice, and would probably shoot their own mothers if they thought it was in the ''Nationalist interest''.

Dalfiatach

I'm no Shinner but I think there's a lot of hypocrisy on a lot of different levels about this case. The media and some politicians here use the McCabe murder as a comfort blanket and empty political football. This one murder is elevated for cheap political reasons way, way, way above any of the other 3,500 or so murders.

There's not a word, the Dáil isn't jumping, the meeja aren't frothing at the mouth about the murder in Coleraine last week. The mainstream parties here told the UUP and DUP they just had to lump it when they were complaining about people who killed RUC men being released. That's double standards people, and curiously examples of double standards aimed at both communities in the north.

The underlying message that is heard loud and clear in the north is that the southern political establishment couldn't give a rat's ass about mere dead Nordies, unless they can milk it for narrow partisan advantage in southern elections.

And there's no honest way of getting round that charge. Nor is there any way of escaping the charge that the southern establishment doesn't give much of a rat's ass about dead, tortured, raped and exploited southern children or poor people. Unless, again, there is some cheap political point that can be scored.

The inescapable truth is that lots of people who give out yards about the McCabe murder were more than willing to ignore or make excuses for a whole litany of other murders or abuses north and south, and that makes them in reality just as morally f***ing suspect as the Shinners in my book.

Get off yer faux-outrage horses, the lot of ye.

I'll be glad when the McCabe killers finish their sentences and get released, because at least it'll remove one more source of insufferable cant humbug and hypocrisy from our body politic.

Martyr

i'm not a SF supporter either, but well said, Dalfiatach.

even if SF did condemn the murder, those who don't like SF and who they represent would soon find something else to moan about..living near the north, you get used to those kind of politics

personally now, i think Miss Ferris has a nice body on her..shes the kind of politician you'd like to have a drink with *wink wink*

Souljacker

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Get off yer faux-outrage horses, the lot of ye.

I'll be glad when the McCabe killers finish their sentences and get released, because at least it'll remove one more source of insufferable cant humbug and hypocrisy from our body politic.

The difference between the McCabe murder was that he as was murdered by Provos out to line their own pockets.

SF as a political party is refusing to condemn the criminal actions of Provos and the murder of a Garda in cold blood in a botched robbery for personal gain.

The people speaking out here are not asking much, just for SF to support law in order in the south.

Also most of McCabe's murders have been released after SF negotiating for their release in return for their continued cooperation in the North.

I'll make no apology for being outraged at SF continuing to support criminals over An Garda Siochana. Why do you not think that's a fair stance to hold?

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not saying I completely agree with you, since I believe that not all working class people are bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian nationalists who condone crime.

Not that you'd spread that view of Sinn Fein Voters, obviously.

I'm beginning to think theres no such thing as 'Shinner Phobia'....its just a way of dressing up victorian style fears of the working class....

nuac

If Ms Ferris still refuses to condemn the murder of Gerry McCabe, Sinn Fein should be asked to resign from all the policing committees in NI and ROI

FTA69

The difference between the McCabe murder was that he as was murdered by Provos out to line their own pockets.

That's completely untrue, it was an IRA fundraising operation. If the volunteers in question killed a guard in the process of conducting a homer they probably would have been shot themselves.

They were IRA members conducting an IRA operation before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, as such they are eligible for release in the same way Loyalists and other Republican prisoners north and south were.

Also most of McCabe's murders have been released after SF negotiating for their release in return for their continued cooperation in the North.

More nonsense. Some of them recieved lesser sentances than others for manslaughter and got out due to remission. There were no deals done on the issue.

Souljacker

FTA69 wrote: »

That's completely untrue, it was an IRA fundraising operation. If the volunteers in question killed a guard in the process of conducting a homer they probably would have been shot themselves.

In 1996 Pat Doherty used Questions and Answers to deny PIRA involvement in Jerry McCabe's Murder.
At the time Gerry Adam's said (when asked about the murder) "The IRA has denied any involvement and I accept that."
The IRA only changed their mind when the provo volunteers the Gardi believed were responsible for the murder of Jerry McCabe were charged 2 years after the murder took place.
The Provos only changed their minds to try to protect their volunteers with POW status.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/4170877.stm.

Personally I don't think it matters what these criminals used their blood money, regardless it still resulted in the death of a Gard. As it happens the IRA did deny responsibility when it happened meaning the volunteers where on a 'homer' as you put it.

FTA69 wrote: »

They were IRA members conducting an IRA operation before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, as such they are eligible for release in the same way Loyalists and other Republican prisoners north and south were.

^ I believe that’s the argument SF used to petition for their release. As illustrated by this OSF leaflet:
http://www.politics.ie/sinn-fein/38845-shinners-want-release-gerry-mccabe-killers.html
And here is info on campaigns for the release of ‘POWs’ from the OSF website including members of the Provo gang who murdered McCabe, who have not yet been released.
http://www.osf.ie/index.php?s=pows

FTA69 wrote: »

More nonsense. Some of them received lesser sentences than others for manslaughter and got out due to remission. There were no deals done on the issue.

That’s not what many people believe after the outrage of the ridiculously lenient sentences handed down in that case and some in the north where accusing the Republic of ‘double standards' when it came to dealing provo prisoners in the south.

The sentence for the murder of a Gardai is 40 years, not one of the crinimals responsible served anything near that.

This is what McGuiness was saying about the trial when it was going on:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mcguinness-remarks-on-armed-gang-spark-storm-417515.html

Here’s an audio clip on RTE where Bertie stated that the murderers sentences would have to be taken in the context of the overall good Friday agreement.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1205/thisweek.html

Again whatever way you look at it most of the gang was released earlier even though the both Justice ministers O'Donoghue and McDowell said they would serve every day of the reduced sentence handed down to them. They didn't.

Terrontress

Nodin wrote: »

Not that you'd spread that view of Sinn Fein Voters, obviously.

I'm beginning to think theres no such thing as 'Shinner Phobia'....its just a way of dressing up victorian style fears of the working class....

How dare you attempt to lump the working class in with SF!?!

The majority of people in this country throughout all social strata are decent and good people and would never dream of being involved in the murder, maiming, torture and robbery which has been typical of that shower of bastards.

Nodin

Terrontress wrote: »

How dare you attempt to lump the working class in with SF!?!.

I think its fairly clear who was linking subsets of social classes to what, actually, so spare me the faux outrage.

Terrontress wrote: »

The majority of people in this country throughout all social strata are decent and good people and would never dream of being involved in the murder, maiming, torture and robbery which has been typical of that shower of bastards.

Ahh yes, more hyperbole and rabble rabble.

FTA69

In 1996 Pat Doherty used Questions and Answers to deny PIRA involvement in Jerry McCabe's Murder.
At the time Gerry Adam's said (when asked about the murder) "The IRA has denied any involvement and I accept that."

Pat Doherty doesn't speak for the IRA, it was the IRA Army Council which initially said it didn't have anything to do with the raid but as it transpired the robbery was sanctioned at a mid-level, probably the southern command or GHQ of the organisation.

The Provos only changed their minds to try to protect their volunteers with POW status.

If these fellas were robbing for personal gain and killed a guard in the process the IRA would be looking to shoot them themselves for bringing the organisation into disrepute and misappropriating weapons, they wouldn't be protecting them at all.

I believe that’s the argument SF used to petition for their release. As illustrated by this OSF leaflet:

Yep and it's true, they are eligible for release under the Good Friday Agreement.

The sentence for the murder of a Gardai is 40 years, not one of the crinimals responsible served anything near that.

Probably because they weren't convicted of murder so your point is completely moot.

Again whatever way you look at it most of the gang was released earlier even though the both Justice ministers O'Donoghue and McDowell said they would serve every day of the reduced sentence handed down to them. They didn't.

Because they initially were snetenced to an average amount of 10 odd years, and prisoners get remission for good behaviour when incarcerated.

Souljacker

FTA69 wrote: »

Pat Doherty doesn't speak for the IRA, it was the IRA Army Council which initially said it didn't have anything to do with the raid but as it transpired the robbery was sanctioned at a mid-level, probably the southern command or GHQ of the organisation.



If these fellas were robbing for personal gain and killed a guard in the process the IRA would be looking to shoot them themselves for bringing the organisation into disrepute and misappropriating weapons, they wouldn't be protecting them at all.



Yep and it's true, they are eligible for release under the Good Friday Agreement.



Probably because they weren't convicted of murder so your point is completely moot.



Because they initially were snetenced to an average amount of 10 odd years, and prisoners get remission for good behaviour when incarcerated.

So we've established that we both agree the PIRA denied responsibility however it took the Provos 2 whole years to realise they didn't do it? (just as their volunteers were being charged)

And that Sinn Fein petitioned for the release of the McCabe killers under the terms of the good friday agreement?

And the reduced sentences were never fully served.

But I was talking nonsense?

You can choose to believe no deal was done between the FF led government and SF or the Provos, that’s your prerogative, however I don’t buy it.

FTA69

But I was talking nonsense?

Well, yes, in a nutshell. First of all you claimed the robbery wasn't an IRA operation, which it was. If these fellas had went out on the hop and shot a guard with IRA weapons they'd have been whacked, not protected or claimed by the organisation.

Second of all you were stating they didn't serve forty odd years etc and that a deal was done, however the men were actually convicted of manslaughter, not murder, and their incarceration followed the same trajectory as anyone else convicted and imprisoned.

And the reduced sentences were never fully served

There was no "reduced" sentence to begin with, they were never convicted of murder. And you'll find nobody in prison serves their full sentence in Ireland, as I said they get up to 50% remission for good behaviour.

And that Sinn Fein petitioned for the release of the McCabe killers under the terms of the good friday agreement?

Because they are indeed eligible.

Souljacker

The Capital punishment was the initial charge, it was reduced to manslaughter which resulted in a huge public outcry.

Maybe you can explain to me how it took the PIRA over 2 years to figure out they were indeed responsible.

As far as I'm concerned we differ on one main point; as to whether SF and the PIRA have credibility.

FTA69

Souljacker wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned we differ on one main point; as to whether SF and the PIRA have credibility.

We don't differ on that point, although I imagine we don't for vastly different reasons. I have great time for some people in the Provisional Republican Movement, some of my best buddies remain involved in that movement. I don't have much time for that movement's current political position, or their current trajectory though.

Villain

This issue has been discussed here on many occasions, the same arguments always arise I would advise anyone interested in the discussion to search this forum.

For starters heres two threads: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=206718 and http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=159627

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

.....and your vote as her dad proved clearly does not matter!

Then why ask me for it ?

By the way, my vote DOES matter, as it will ensure that whoever gets elected deserves to be; and at the risk of sounding arrogant, more appropriately then most, considering there's absolutely no party allegiance here, and candidates will be voted for based on their merits and their stated stances on important issues.

Nodin wrote: »

Not that you'd spread that view of Sinn Fein Voters, obviously.

If the cap fits.....

Nodin wrote: »

I'm beginning to think theres no such thing as 'Shinner Phobia'....its just a way of dressing up victorian style fears of the working class....

????? My statement was challenging the earlier claim (can't remember who posted it) who seemed to claim the "working class" vote for SF.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I believe that not all working class people are bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian nationalists who condone crime.

So there's no reason to globally ridicule the "working class" vote. In fact, there's hardly fair reason to diss it even from SF supporters, since for every blinkered SF vote that supports condoning of murder, there's a blinkered FF vote that supports condoning corruption and incompetence.

Some people here will always defend crime that was committed for "the cause", and while I disagree with that, it's their right (after all, religious orders have defended child abuse and FF have defended corruption and incompetence, and their supporters seem to take sides).

Bottom line is this : whatever about my personal view of Ferris' stance (sickening and incompatible with being an elected representative making policies) the fact of the matter is that it would improve slightly if she was consistent - i.e. if she equally "refused to condemn" other atrocities.

But - like all SF members and supporters - they can't form an opinion on an issue unless the sentence describing it includes the words "loyalist" or "nationalist", and once those are included (regardless of how much an atrocity or otherwise it was) the forthcoming opinion will be 100% clear.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If the cap fits......

I've been a Sinn Fein voter for approximately twenty years. I'm neither sectarian, brainwashed, or blood thirsty. I'd suggest you design caps for 'heads' in the real world, not the world as you imagine it.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.Some people here will always defend crime that was committed for "the cause", and while I disagree with that, it's their right (after all, religious orders have defended child abuse ......)

A rather pathetic effort there.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But - like all SF members and supporters - they can't form an opinion on an issue unless the sentence describing it includes the words "loyalist" or "nationalist", and once those are included (regardless of how much an atrocity or otherwise it was) the forthcoming opinion will be 100% clear.

More insulting sweeping generalisations...Why stop now, I suppose.....

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

More insulting sweeping generalisations...Why stop now, I suppose.....

Hang on a sec, now please.....that's what the party does, so it's fair enough to extrapolate that their voters are OK with it.

Just as it would be fair enough to assume that any remaining FF voters would be happy with condoning corruption and payoffs for incompetent individuals.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hang on a sec, now please.....that's what the party does, ..........

This is a policy document, linked here in PDF format, entitled
"Women in an Ireland of Equals"
http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/WomensDocument20041.pdf

I'd like you to tell me where the words "Nationalist" or "loyalist" emerge. I'd also like to have the parts that appeal to their allegedly " bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian" 'fan base' pointed out......

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

I've been a Sinn Fein voter for approximately twenty years. I'm neither sectarian, brainwashed, or blood thirsty. I'd suggest you design caps for 'heads' in the real world, not the world as you imagine it.

Oh so you were voting Sinn Féin 20 years ago at a time when they used get the leaders of the IRA in to their Árd'fheis for a talk on how the campaign to blow up children in Warrington was going on?
And you have the cheek to say you weren't blood thirsty?

Tell us another one...

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh so you were voting Sinn Féin 20 years ago at a time when they used get the leaders of the IRA in to their Árd'fheis for a talk on how the campaign to blow up children in Warrington was going on?

Funny enough I never remember such a talk. You wouldn't have a source....?

O.......Wait, its emotive rhetoric again, isn't it? Silly me.