Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers

partyguinness

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hang on a sec, now please.....that's what the party does, so it's fair enough to extrapolate that their voters are OK with it.

Just as it would be fair enough to assume that any remaining FF voters would be happy with condoning corruption and payoffs for incompetent individuals.

#

Mate you really need to inform yourself a bit better on SF party policies etc.

No one is asking you to agree or like it but sweeping and quiet frankly ignorant generalisations are unhelpful and only serve to highlight your own blinkered views.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh so you were voting Sinn Féin 20 years ago at a time when they used get the leaders of the IRA in to their Árd'fheis for a talk on how the campaign to blow up children in Warrington was going on?
And you have the cheek to say you weren't blood thirsty?

Tell us another one...

What campaign to "blow up children"?

This language is unhelpful, emotionally charged and does not add to the debate.

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

This is a policy document, linked here in PDF format, entitled
"Women in an Ireland of Equals"
http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/WomensDocument20041.pdf

I'd like you to tell me where the words "Nationalist" or "loyalist" emerge. I'd also like to have the parts that appeal to their allegedly " bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian" 'fan base' pointed out......

The very TITLE of the document contradicts their usual stance of condemning and demanding action and closure on things that "the Brits" did while refusing to condemn or look for action or closure on ANY action taken by the IRA.

As for partyguinness asking ME to become more informed on SF policies.....I won't waste my time on whether they think there should be a new path outside my house until such time as they condemn and demand justice for ALL atrocities.

Just as I won't waste my time reading FF literature about minor policies until they stop condoning corruption.

As I said earlier, if someone supports murderers, their stance on minor issues is irrelevant.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

What campaign to "blow up children"?

This language is unhelpful, emotionally charged and does not add to the debate.

Warrington.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

Funny enough I never remember such a talk. You wouldn't have a source....?

O.......Wait, its emotive rhetoric again, isn't it? Silly me.

Uhm...
selective memory is it?
RTE and other journalists always had to leave the SF Árd'fheis whilst they "discussed" the IRA campaign.

Liam Byrne

partyguinness wrote: »

What campaign to "blow up children"?

This language is unhelpful, emotionally charged and does not add to the debate.

Partially agreed......but in my view it's the same as language used when sympathisers refer "the collusion on Bloody Sunday", etc.

If "****, we ****ed up, but we weren't TARGETTING those people" applies to one side, and we're expected to give them the benefit of the doubt, then all neutrals would equally be expected to give the "other side" the benefit of the doubt too.

Ideally, there'd be NO emotive language, but you CAN'T seriously complain about emotive language when you use it yourself.

just printing facts here.
Noidín has admitted to be voting for SF at a time when they were bombing shopping areas on packed saturdays in England.
Noidín also claims not to have been blood thirsty.

Black is white etc

Villain

Deleted User wrote: »

just printing facts here.
Noidín has admitted to be voting for SF at a time when they were bombing shopping areas on packed saturdays in England.
Noidín also claims not to have been blood thirsty.

Black is white etc

So every Nationalist in Northern Ireland that voted for Sinn Fein 20 years ago was blood thirsty? Umm

partyguinness

The bombing campaigns ie. warrington, canary wharf...were designed to disrupt the economic growth of uk cities (not agreeing or disagreeing). they were not set up to kill people or go on "blood thristy" campaigns of mindless slaughter or to blow up children.

People did die which was regrettable and the IRA has apologised for the deaths of innocent people during the conflict.

Slightly off track, but UK and American forces are killing thousands of innocent people on a yearly basis and as we speak, I wish people would get more worked up whats happening now as opposed to events that are in the past.

Villain

Villain wrote: »

So every Nationalist in Northern Ireland that voted for Sinn Fein 20 years ago was blood thirsty? Umm

Anyone that voted for them while they were blowing up shoping centres without permission yes.
I do recall most nationalists in NI voted for the SDLP then though...

Liam Byrne

Nodin wrote: »

I'd like you to tell me where the words "Nationalist" or "loyalist" emerge. I'd also like to have the parts that appeal to their allegedly " bloodythirsty, brainwashed, sectarian" 'fan base' pointed out......

Some homework. Compare and contrast :

"These sectarian loyalists have murdered Kevin, badly beaten his wife Evelyn and now deliver the ultimate insult by threatening one of the sons.

All loyalist and unionist politicians and community leaders, including the UPRG, must now stand up and be counted by publicly and privately working to rid this community of such low level activity."

Coleraine Sinn Féin councillor Billy Leonard : Source : http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16503

Euro-MPs are to urge the use of EU cash to help the McCartney sisters fight a civil action to bring the killers of their brother Robert to justice.
The sisters will be in Strasbourg to hear the European Parliament debate a motion condemning "violence and criminality by the self-styled 'Irish Republican Army' (IRA) in Northern Ireland, in particular the murder of Robert McCartney".
The motion, backed by more than 600 MEPs - but not the two Sinn Fein members - says the sisters "deserve the fullest support in their pursuit of justice".

Source : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-347934/MEPs-debate-McCartney-murder.html

P.S. Alternative source used because there is no comparable mention or quote on Sinn Fein's website.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

The bombing campaigns ie. warrington, canary wharf...were designed to disrupt the economic growth of uk cities (not agreeing or disagreeing). they were not set up to kill people or go on "blood thristy" campaigns of mindless slaughter or to blow up children.

Lol,thats like saying me jumping off a cliff would be designed to scare my mother into buying me sweets.
It wouldn't.

People did die which was regrettable and the IRA has apologised for the deaths of innocent people during the conflict.

Slightly off track, but UK and American forces are killing thousands of innocent people on a yearly basis and as we speak, I wish people would get more worked up whats happening now as opposed to events that are in the past.

To be fair,they have pretty much apologised but memories are still raw given the families of the victims are still alive and walking the street.

As regards Afghanistan...the difference is,the IRA were never elected to bomb,maim and shoot.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The very TITLE of the document contradicts their usual stance of condemning and demanding action and closure on things that "the Brits" did while refusing to condemn or look for action or closure on ANY action taken by the IRA.
.

'Quick, throw mud!!!!!'

Its rather revealing that when I introduce a policy document that belies what you've been claiming, you automatically endavour to supply what in fact isn't there.

I trust we'll have no more claims about certain phrases being required etc repeated in the future though.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As for partyguinness asking ME to become more informed on SF policies.....I won't waste my time on whether they think there should be a new path outside my house until such time as they condemn and demand justice for ALL atrocities. .

So its just close eyes and sling muck for the forseeable future then.....

Deleted User wrote:

Uhm...
selective memory is it?
RTE and other journalists always had to leave the SF Árd'fheis whilst they "discussed" the IRA campaign.

O that happened allright. What you stated about them getting

leaders of the IRA in to their Árd'fheis for a talk on how the campaign to blow up children in Warrington was going on

didn't, however.

Deleted User wrote:

Noidín .

...whoever he might be.....I can't seem to find a post under that name.

Liam Byrne

partyguinness wrote: »

People did die which was regrettable

So why is it not "regrettable" that people died on Bloody Sunday, and we can all move on ?

Because that's not right. And NEITHER is "oops, we didn't mean that" (I personally tend not to believe the word of people prepared to leave bombs in shopping centres, but then that's probably somehow MY fault).

Justice and accountability ACROSS THE BOARD

partyguinness wrote: »

Slightly off track, but UK and American forces are killing thousands of innocent people on a yearly basis and as we speak, I wish people would get more worked up whats happening now as opposed to events that are in the past.

Of course you do, because it would let SF & the IRA off the hook.

The child-abuse by the religious orders is "in the past" too; should we stop demanding justice for that ?

I agree with you 100% on the invasion of Iraq, but that is irrelevant to this thread, as Toireasa Ferris would probably have condemned that and berated FF for supporting it.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

'Quick, throw mud!!!!!'

Its rather revealing that when I introduce a policy document that belies what you've been claiming, you automatically endavour to supply what in fact isn't there.

I trust we'll have no more claims about certain phrases being required etc repeated in the future though.



So its just close eyes and sling muck for the forseeable future then.....

Not muck facts.

O that happened allright. What you stated about them getting

didn't, however.



...whoever he might be.....I can't seem to find a post under that name.

You're not fooling me with that gibberish.
I've seen all this before you see.
The same mantra different usernames.
Reminds me of the inner city guard that told me about the kids throwing rocks at them and shouting free state bastards.
Anal.
I'm quite glad to know most people in this country don't subscribe to that.
Like OB said earlier,they have certain basic standards.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol,thats like saying me jumping off a cliff would be designed to scare my mother into buying me sweets.
It wouldn't.
To be fair,they have pretty much apologised but memories are still raw given the families of the victims are still alive and walking the street.

As regards Afghanistan...the difference is,the IRA were never elected to bomb,maim and shoot.[/quote]


Ah...I see. So the 'blood thristy' bombing of a school or wedding in Afghanistan or Iraq is acceptable to you because the US/UK governments were elected. Now I do not accept that. That is a blatant double standard.

The killing of innocent children is ok in Iraq.

It is either acceptable to you or not. Which is it?

Furthermore the IRA were fighting an age old enemy occupying this island. That cause is a hell of a lot more worthy and more than I can say for the cowardly wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Nodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Some homework(.....)'s website.

And that somehow justifies your now disproven generalisation that

But - like all SF members and supporters - they can't form an opinion on an issue unless the sentence describing it includes the words "loyalist" or "nationalist",

how, exactly?

partyguinness

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So why is it not "regrettable" that people died on Bloody Sunday, and we can all move on ?

Because that's not right. And NEITHER is "oops, we didn't mean that" (I personally tend not to believe the word of people prepared to leave bombs in shopping centres, but then that's probably somehow MY fault).

Justice and accountability ACROSS THE BOARD



Of course you do, because it would let SF & the IRA off the hook.

The child-abuse by the religious orders is "in the past" too; should we stop demanding justice for that ?

I agree with you 100% on the invasion of Iraq, but that is irrelevant to this thread, as Toireasa Ferris would probably have condemned that and berated FF for supporting it.

Letting them on the hook for what?

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen all this before you see.
The same mantra different usernames.

You are right - the same whataboutry, the same look back at something that happened decades ago, the same 'you voted for X therefore you must support everything that X done', the same inconsistencies, the same hypocrisy – and this is just the anti-republican side!!

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

Not muck facts..

So you'll be able to go through the document and substantiate or the claim that

But - like all SF members and supporters - they can't form an opinion on an issue unless the sentence describing it includes the words "loyalist" or "nationalist",

then.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're not fooling me with that gibberish...

You misidentified my screen name. Rather than presume it was some form of attempt at insult I was pointing out that you were in error.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen all this before you see.
The same mantra different usernames.
Reminds me of the inner city guard that told me about the kids throwing rocks at them and shouting free state bastards.
Anal.

"anal". Hmmmm, what was that about attacking posts and not the poster?

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

As regards Afghanistan...the difference is,the IRA were never elected to bomb,maim and shoot.
Ah...I see. So the 'blood thristy' bombing of a school or wedding in Afghanistan or Iraq is acceptable to you because the US/UK governments were elected. Now I do not accept that. That is a blatant double standard.

Did I say it was acceptable? I pointed out,the people of the UK get a Say in what their government does.
It's the difference between anarchy and democracy.

The killing of innocent children is ok in Iraq.

It is either acceptable to you or not. Which is it?

It was voted on.

Furthermore the IRA were fighting an age old enemy occupying this island. That cause is a hell of a lot more worthy and more than I can say for the cowardly wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Lol
Rubbish.
The IRA had no permission to do what it did.
Bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into this is just deflection from an awkward truth for you.
Typical see through bad debating tactics really.

But like before we go on..
On a You said, I said, multiple quote fest here which has been done thousands of times on this board before literally [theres nothing you or I will come out with that hasnt been seen before]

Let me say this.Someone [it might have been you] hit the nail on the head by saying Ms Ferris cannot say what this thread calls for because it's against party policy.
To be honest it also goes against the grain of hard line republicanism.
I accept that position.
I sure as hell can't agree with it though.

Stabshauptmann

Pearse McCauley, Jeremiah Sheehy, Michael O’Neill and Kevin Walsh were convicted of manslaughter.

Normally the mods on this board are very good at picking up on, and sanctioning posters for, obvious misstatements of fact and defamation.
Its a pity to see oscarBravo breaking the charter.

Horrible as their actions may be, they were found not guilty of murder by the courts, so stop posting otherwise.

Nodin

Nodin wrote: »

"anal". Hmmmm, what was that about attacking posts and not the poster?

Kids that throw rocks don't post here...

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are right - the same whataboutry, the same look back at something that happened decades ago, the same 'you voted for X therefore you must support everything that X done', the same inconsistencies, the same hypocrisy – and this is just the anti-republican side!!

ADIG.
We've sparred on this issue many times as you know.
I wouldn't regard myself as anti republican by the way.
I just never agreed with the notion that being a republican and being a bomber should have went side by side.

But yes this is the same old same old.
Just different usernames.
Entrenched positions won't change.

FTA69

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh so you were voting Sinn Féin 20 years ago at a time when they used get the leaders of the IRA in to their Árd'fheis for a talk on how the campaign to blow up children in Warrington was going on?
And you have the cheek to say you weren't blood thirsty?

Tell us another one...

Eh no. A statement which was issued by the IRA was usually read out, journalists were asked to leave the Ard Fheis so the person who was delegated to read it couldn't be set up for an IRA membership charge. That's a big difference from "getting IRA leaders to the Ard Fheis", like a few others on this forum you haven't the slightest clue what you're on about.

Stabshauptmann

After readin this thread I find it disappointing that so many people show so little respect for the lives of English and Northern Irish police officers.

Sinn Fein do not condemn the actions of the PIRA during the troubles. We know this. I think it is poor journalism that McCabe's killers should be singled out, and I think its regrettable that so many people think that there should be different standards applied to those who killed RUC and those who killed Gardaí.

To be honest, I find it moronic, ignorant, unhelpful and hypocritical when people hold the view that its ok for SF to be in power in the north, but theres no way in hell they should ever be in government here.

Are we some type of higher creature that deserve better than the people of Northern Ireland? Is it that our lives our more valuable and so our killers should receive harsher penalties?
And our land is more sacred, our children more precious, that SF should be involved in the planning process and department of education in the North, but it is obscene and abhorrent to think of them doing likewise down here?

It is a petty, selfish, disgusting stance imo, when people insist that the people in the North of this Ireland whole heartedly support the Good Friday Agreement (many of the Anti-Shinners in this thread had buckets to say about the policing board etc) but the notion that they themselves should "move on" and embrace the future doesnt seem to suit them.

Peace is all well and good, but why should I have to maintain it? The people of the North need to learn to live together and forgive the past, but we are a higher, nobler race who may hold these grudges against the next generation.

partyguinness

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

After readin this thread I find it disappointing that so many people show so little respect for the lives of English and Northern Irish police officers.

Sinn Fein do not condemn the actions of the PIRA during the troubles. We know this. I think it is poor journalism that McCabe's killers should be singled out, and I think its regrettable that so many people think that there should be different standards applied to those who killed RUC and those who killed Gardaí.

To be honest, I find it moronic, ignorant, unhelpfull and hypocritical when people hold the view that its ok for SF to be in power in the north, but theres no way in hell they should ever be in governement here.

Are we some type of higher creature that deserve better than the people of Northern Ireland? Is it that our lives our more valuable and so our killers should receive harsher penalties?
And our land is more sarced, our children more precious, that SF should be involved in the planning process and department of education in the North, but it is obscene and abhoent to think of them doing likewise down here?

It is a petty, selfish, disgusting stance imo, when people insist that the people in the North of this Ireland whole heartedly support the Good Friday Agreement (many of the Anti-Shinners in this thread had buckets to say about the policing board etc) but the notion that they themselves should "move on" and embrace the future doesnt seem to suit them.

Peace is all well and good, but why should I have to mantain it? The people of the North need to learn to live together and forgive the past, but we are a higher, nobler race who may hold these grudges against the next generation.

My views exactly.:)

Pretty much sums up my previous posts on this matter.

Guy:Incognito

Small point from the first couple of pages. The girl was 15 or 16 when the murder took place, thats a long way from "being in the cradle" and I'd imagine she was forming plenty of political views around that time.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

Did I say it was acceptable? I pointed out,the people of the UK get a Say in what their government does.
It's the difference between anarchy and democracy.

It was voted on.

Lol
Rubbish.
The IRA had no permission to do what it did.
Bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into this is just deflection from an awkward truth for you.
Typical see through bad debating tactics really.

But like before we go on..
On a You said, I said, multiple quote fest here which has been done thousands of times on this board before literally [theres nothing you or I will come out with that hasnt been seen before]

Let me say this.Someone [it might have been you] hit the nail on the head by saying Ms Ferris cannot say what this thread calls for because it's against party policy.
To be honest it also goes against the grain of hard line republicanism.
I accept that position.
I sure as hell can't agree with it though.

The reason I brough up Iraq/Afgahnistan was to ask a question to Liam Byrne when he was high and mighty about children in Warrington not as a deflection. I said from the out set that it would be off track but it was just used to ask a question about double standards and as is stated above...that somehow our lives or the Gardai are more valuable than the RUC or the people of NI.....Perhaps you might tell me what these truths are that I am uncomfortable with.

The IRA had a (whether you agree with it or not) legitimate cause fighting a foreign imperial army in Ireland.

Afterall the British people voted in their governemnt who supported:-

- Internment
- gerry mandering
- shoot to kill policy
- Collusion with loyalist deaths squads

need I go on?

So perhaps you might enlighten me as to what the dead innocent women, men and children of Iraq or Afghanistan did to the UK or UK citizens to deserve the illegal occupation of their country? Those invasions were cowardly as they picked and bombed easy targets who cld not fight back.

And no it was not voted on as you said. It was not sanctioned by the UN.

But thats a whole different thread and off topic.

Stabshauptmann

Steviemak wrote: »

IRA Campaign - Lets not risk dying by fighting the enemy head on - no lets just put a big bomb in the local town centre and walk away. Then let our innocent neighbours die and be maimed - Catholic and Protestants doesn't really matter which.

Or lets put a booby trap bomb in a house in Portloaise and call the local Gardai out and blow them to bits.

Can you expand on the bomb in Portlaoise please? Ive never heard about what your talking about and neither has google