Toireasa Ferris again refuses to condemn Jerry McCabes killers

Steviemak

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Can you expand on the bomb in Portlaoise please? Ive never heard about what your talking about and neither has google

http://www.rte.ie/tv/gardaarlar/09prog4.html

Martyr

Deleted User wrote:

Bringing Iraq and Afghanistan into this is just deflection from an awkward truth for you.

I don't see how its a deflection, its confronting you and others about a wider issue, one which you're quite happy to ignore.

Why did we have the IRA? just like why do we now have islamic fundamentalism? what started it all?

Do you believe that one day these people woke up and just decided they would start shooting and killing people? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that people from a nationalist/catholic background just said "hey, i think today i'll start hating protestants and the british, then tomorrow i'll start shooting and bombing some" :rolleyes:

Attacking SF on this 1 issue is total hypocrisy...lets ask Brian Cowen or any of the current government how they feel about US soldiers and mercenaries from blackwater, travelling through ireland on their way to a country which they are occupying illegally, under false pretenses.

Lets ask what the current government think about military parts produced in Ireland being used to kill and injure innocent people in foreign countries.

Pure ignorance really, nothing else.

And no, i'm not a SF supporter, but even I can see the total hypocrisy of this story.

Liam Byrne

partyguinness wrote: »

The reason I brough up Iraq/Afgahnistan was to ask a question to Liam Byrne when he was high and mighty about children in Warrington not as a deflection.

Don't drag me into this aspect, as I completely agree that lots of what was/is done in Iraq was as bad as anything done by the IRA.

partyguinness wrote: »

The IRA had a (whether you agree with it or not) legitimate cause fighting a foreign imperial army in Ireland.

If that were a fact - rather than an opinion - then he wouldn't be in a position to disagree.

partyguinness wrote: »

Afterall the British people voted in their governemnt who supported:-

- Internment
- gerry mandering
- shoot to kill policy
- Collusion with loyalist deaths squads

need I go on?

No, and there might well be some truth in the above, and the Brits should come clean and condemn a lot of the above.

HOWEVER

There are two issues.

Firstly, we need to believe you that the killing of children was "accidental", whle believing your claims that there was collusion with loyalist death squads.

Secondly, you're still rabbitting on about the above, while expecting us to ignore the need for closure on the IRA atrocities.

partyguinness wrote: »

Those invasions were cowardly as they picked and bombed easy targets who cld not fight back.

And no it was not voted on as you said. It was not sanctioned by the UN.

But thats a whole different thread and off topic.

100% agreed. Like I said, I'm not biased and I treat injustice and crimes the way I see them, regardless of who commits them.

partyguinness wrote: »

The killing of innocent children is ok in Iraq

No. It's not. Just as it wasn't OK in Warrington or anywhere else.

But if it wasn't the target, then we should surely judge that and the IRA bombings the same way.

In my book, both are despicable and should be condemned; what's your view of both ?

Re "letting them off the hook" - that should be obvious to anyone who wants to see justice done. Letting people off the hook without condemning murder.

Of course (and while I wouldn't agree with it, I could at least see some consistency in it) SF could also simply leave "the Brits" off the hook for their atrocities, stop complaining and taking sides and move on.

I notice there has been zero comment about the inconsistencies about how SF clamour for the unionists to do everything in their power to get justice for last weekend's atrocity (including a post on their own website) but don't apply the same requirements to Robert McCartney's murder.

I'll say it again; when it comes to demanding justice and/or excusing actions as "required" or "accidents", SF can't seem to apply the requirement consistently and seem to need to check "who did it?" first. So I stand 100% behind my earlier statement.

An "ireland of equals" would be great, but it needs to be just that; an "ireland of equals", where someone's political allegiance, religion, ethnicity, colour or sex is irrelevant, and where crime is dealt with as crime.

Erin Go Brath

Raiser wrote: »

Well Kerrys answer to Sharon Stone was on the radio again this morning and again saw no reason to condemn the thieving, scumbag criminals who in the process of botching a robbery shot dead a married father of five children in cold blood as he attempted to carrying out his professional duties.

- Running for a local seat in case she flops as a Euro Candidate and running for Europe in case the locals see through her, Toireasa is covering all the bases but what can this election Candidate offer anyone from such an incredibly dilapidated, rotten, indefensible moral platform?

It must be election time again when the main parties are bringing up this very old piece of news. Nothing better to hammer SF with, no worries you can always drag something up from the archives. Obviously worried about SF gaining popularity.

Stabshauptmann

Steviemak wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/tv/gardaarlar/09prog4.html

Thats terrible. In total 9 Gardaí and 1 member of the IDF were killed during the troubles. However, as terrible and tragic as their deaths were, I think its hypocritical to treat their deaths differently than those of the British policing or security services.

FYI The house was in Co. Offaly. The local police station was Portarlington (Laois-Offlally boarder), Portlaoise is the principal town in Co. Laois about 15km away.

Martyr

Martyr wrote: »

I don't see how its a deflection, its confronting you and others about a wider issue, one which you're quite happy to ignore.

Why did we have the IRA? just like why do we now have islamic fundamentalism? what started it all?

Do you believe that one day these people woke up and just decided they would start shooting and killing people? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that people from a nationalist/catholic background just said "hey, i think today i'll start hating protestants and the british, then tomorrow i'll start shooting and bombing some" :rolleyes:

Attacking SF on this 1 issue is total hypocrisy...lets ask Brian Cowen or any of the current government how they feel about US soldiers and mercenaries from blackwater, travelling through ireland on their way to a country which they are occupying illegally, under false pretenses.

Lets ask what the current government think about military parts produced in Ireland being used to kill and injure innocent people in foreign countries.

Pure ignorance really, nothing else.

And no, i'm not a SF supporter, but even I can see the total hypocrisy of this story.

Oh the incredulity of what you have wrote.
Fact is the IRA needed permission to do what they did and they didnt even bother asking.Probably because they wouldnt have got it and mainly because they are/were an undemocratic organisation.
Your post and your logic screams (1) oh its going on elsewhere so we can do it here and (2) anarchy.

I'd disagree with both philosophies as would thankfully most.
Enough said with respect to that.

solice

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Thats terrible. In total 9 Gardaí and 1 member of the IDF were killed during the troubles. However, as terrible and tragic as their deaths were, I think its hypocritical to treat their deaths differently than those of the British policing or security services.

I agree, I think the deaths of anyone during the troubles was a shame, but I think the point of this specific thread is, Toireasa Ferris is attempting to win a European Seat and represent the people of Ireland South. The specific case of the murder of Jerry McCabe happened in Adare, Co. Limerick, within the Ireland South constituency.

In some ways this is a local issue for a European constituency and this will always be brought up anytime that Ms Ferris runs for election. Ms Ferris wants to represent the people of Adare and the family of Gerry McCabe. Coming from Kerry North she grew up quiet close to the events, she went to the university of limerick, only a stones throw from Adare. Toireasa is well aware of the peoples attitude toward what happened.

As someone who will be voting next Friday in the Euro Election in Ireland South I would be prepared to give Ms. Ferris a significant preference if she would come out and say that it was a tragedy and wrong. But as things stand, I aint giving her anything.

irishgrover

A significant number of the public seem to be surprised that Ms Feris would not condem the murder, however I really don't see why? She has, if nothing else, been constant in her stance on this.

It's not like one day everyone in the ira and Sinn Fein, just woke up and decided to significantly adjust their moral compass!

The majority of Sinn Fein members traditionally and wholeheartedly supported the murder of all kinds of different people, from Guards to cleaners, black, white, protestant, catholic, male and female, adults and children, were all ligitmate targets.

THe GFA did not cause either the ira or Sinn Fein to belive that their actions were wrong, rather that it was time to change their approach. Sinn Fein still commemorate, celebrate and profit from the historic activities of the ira.

Ms. Ferris has never condemed the murder of Gerry McCabe and probably never will, as is her democratic right. It is out democratic right as individuals to decide if we want to vote for her, or someone else, or no one at all.

Martyr

Deleted User wrote:

Your post and your logic screams (1) oh its going on elsewhere so we can do it here and (2) anarchy.

My post is about your hypocrisy on the issue of SF condemning the murder of Jerry McCabe.

I'm certain that even if SF condemned the McCabe murder, people like you would easily find something else to complain about...no doubt what so ever.

you know why i'm certain? because i've listened to the same rhetoric from politicians in northern ireland for 15 years, and many others have listened the same BS for alot longer...you're playing with a really outdated strategy here.

Can't you come up with something a bit more original?

My logic in the previous post is that if we are to expect SF to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe, then we should expect other political leaders to do the same when there are murders in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You don't consider those people? probably not..

We should expect that the elected government in the Republic of Ireland should condemn the 100,000 deaths of Iraqis since the US invaded their country.

And remember, they're only in Iraq for the oil, $30 trillion worth of it, not to "liberate" or to spread "democracy" - bollocks.

Please Mr Black Briar, why not ask Brian Cowen to condemn the US governments actions?

You won't get an answer.

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

My logic in the previous post is that if we are to expect SF to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe, then we should expect other political leaders to do the same when there are murders in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You can ask Black Briar all you want, but as I've repeatedly posted in this thread : I agree. Those murders in Iraq are part of the reason that FF won't get my vote, because FF allowed the U.S. to use Shannon.

So aside from another "but look what they're doing" dig at Black Briar, where are the answers to MY posts ?

Or is it more difficult to find a red herring to answer mine, because I'll agree to treat like with like ?

Since when do normal people looking for justice and democracy resort to childish "but look what THEY're doing" ?

If you do wrong, you should be taken to task for it. Period.

Yes, others should be too, but your defence cannot be "look what others are doing".

And (getting back on-topic) Toireasa's election material essentially said "look at all the nasty things some members of FF have done, with their party members condoning and supporting it - you deserve better".

So having thrown that about, we're perfectly entitled to give her the same treatment.

FF should disown, condemn and weed out corruption.

But before Toireasa throws crap like that around she should remind herself that, bad and all as they are, FF do not excuse or condone murder.

Martyr

Martyr wrote: »

you know why i'm certain? because i've listened to the same rhetoric from politicians in northern ireland for 15 years, and many others have listened the same BS for alot longer...you're playing with a really outdated strategy here.

For a start,the south mindset is different to the north.
Kill Gardaí and refuse to condemn it and most people won't have much meas in you.

Can't you come up with something a bit more original?

My logic in the previous post is that if we are to expect SF to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe, then we should expect other political leaders to do the same when there are murders in Iraq and Afghanistan.

so you don't believe in local politics at all then? local issues like?
Your logic is flawed bringing in international concerns.
You may aswell say don't elect so and so because he's alligned in the EU with some italian politician who hasnt fixed the roads in bologna yet.
No vote for paddy untill the pothole in bologna is fixed.
Thats how utterly ridiculious trivialising the views of southern voters is but then the IRA never bothered with them anyway untill recently so I guess it will take them time to get used to it..

You don't consider those people? probably not..

We should expect that the elected government in the Republic of Ireland should condemn the 100,000 deaths of Iraqis since the US invaded their country.

And remember, they're only in Iraq for the oil, $30 trillion worth of it, not to "liberate" or to spread "democracy" - bollocks.

Please Mr Black Briar, why not ask Brian Cowen to condemn the US governments actions?

You won't get an answer.

Yeah he'll look at me like I've two heads and wonder what that has got to do with the price of apples in limerick.


heh it sounds like you are saying,tackle the big wars first and leave the poor old rah alone ...shur they only kiled a few relative to what countries did.

Irrelevant deflection as they still had no right to do it-end of.

Martyr

Deleted User wrote:

For a start,the south mindset is different to the north.
Kill Gardaí and refuse to condemn it and most people won't have much meas in you.

Not for me, it isn't.

so you don't believe in local politics at all then? local issues like?
Your logic is flawed bringing in international concerns.

Is it really? because as you know very well, the US army are using Shannon to refuel on their way to and from Iraq and the Irish government are getting paid for this.

So is it unreasonable for our government to condemn the illegal occupation of Iraq and the 100,000 murders that the US army and private mercenaries are responsible for? Do you not think Ireland shares some of this responsibility?

Its obvious we do, which is why the Irish government will never condemn it.

Irrelevant deflection as they still had no right to do it-end of.

I never said they did have a right, but are you telling me the US army have a right to kill 100,000 iraqi people and rape their country of natural resources and wealth?

It would seem so, after all, the mindset is different..obviously :rolleyes:

solice

I still dont understand why you are bringing the war in Iraq into this...this is about Toireasa Ferris attempting the represent the people whom her former colleagues murdered. They murdered Jerry McCabe while they were members of an illegal organisation with illegally held weapons while carrying out an illegal activity.

The fact that there are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan is irrelevant to this debate. This is about Toireasa Ferris and you seem to be attempting to go off topic. This is a local topic for me and for many people who will be wondering whether or not to put a number next to Toireasa Ferris name next Friday, not an international one being played out by the worlds super powers.

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

So is it unreasonable for our government to condemn the illegal occupation of Iraq and the 100,000 murders that the US army and private mercenaries are responsible for? Do you not think Ireland shares some of this responsibility?

Again, I've posted that BOTH are equally "condemnable", and I'd expect anyone that I vote for to condemn both.

But again, you've chosen to ignore that in order to keep open a loophole on which you can tackle Black Briar while not facing the truth -

That neutrals don't take sides when viewing atrocities.
That neutrals don't allow one side to claim "accidents" and that despicable phrase "collateral damage" without giving the other side the benefit of the doubt.

SO many times we've heard the IRA sympathisers say "there was a war on"; while I don't agree that there was a war on in Adare (and if I want to contribute to a "cause", I'll do so - I don't appreciate scum trying to rob my money from a bank-transit, and anyway, if they had enough support they'd get donations) but IF there was a war on and despicable tactics were allowed which include murdering Gardai, then the Brits were equally entitled to do anything they bloody well wanted!

Like I said, I don't take this stance, but the Shinners choose to look at one side that way, so they should look at both that way.

partyguinness

There is no hope of her being elected anyway IMO. Not enough 1st and certainly no transfers.

Martyr

Martyr wrote: »

Not for me, it isn't.

yeah but your the one in 10..I'm talking about the overwhelming democratic majority like.

Is it really? because as you know very well, the US army are using Shannon to refuel on their way to and from Iraq and the Irish government are getting paid for this.

So is it unreasonable for our government to condemn the illegal occupation of Iraq and the 100,000 murders that the US army and private mercenaries are responsible for? Do you not think Ireland shares some of this responsibility?

Its obvious we do, which is why the Irish government will never condemn it.

if we're doing something internationally illegal why haven't the UN put sanctions on us?
Reason is,they can't because a democratically elected government has the legal authority to approve the transit.
Thats against Liam's wishes and as far as I'm concerned,it's a matter that can and should be dealt with democratically.

Incidently ,no need to be busying yourself with this deflection anyway as it's not deflecting me..I'd rather you'd deal with Liam byrnes more local and more pertinent questions or it it that they're awkward ?

I never said they did have a right, but are you telling me the US army have a right to kill 100,000 iraqi people and rape their country of natural resources and wealth?

It would seem so, after all, the mindset is different..obviously :rolleyes:

Hmmmm I'm wondering why you are bringing it up,thats all.
I've said why I'm wondering.
It looks like you are going on with the fallacy of "wah wah look over there so as the IRA can be left alone with it's littler operation over here".

Doesn't work like that.

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

My logic in the previous post is that if we are to expect SF to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe, then we should expect other political leaders to do the same when there are murders in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You don't consider those people? probably not..

I do. Is that inconvenient for you ? Sorry!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In my book, both are despicable and should be condemned; what's your view of both ?

Martyr

solice wrote:

I still dont understand why you are bringing the war in Iraq into this...this is about Toireasa Ferris attempting the represent the people whom her former colleagues murdered. They murdered Jerry McCabe while they were members of an illegal organisation with illegally held weapons while carrying out an illegal activity.

Yes, I wouldn't disagree with that.

Are not the US army engaged in illegal occupation of foreign lands and responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead civilians?

Is this same army not refueling its aircraft in shannon every week? with our own Irish government in receipt of money?

Why is it OK to murder if the attacks are supported by an elected government?

Murder is murder, and if you were really sincere about caring for a human being which Jerry McCabe was, with a family, you'd care for those dead people in Iraq, but clearly you don't...you don't consider them human, just like you value less the people in northern ireland..

The fact that there are people dying in Iraq and Afghanistan is irrelevant to this debate.

IMO, its relevant because it exposes the hypocrisy of this whole story.

Either you condemn all murders or none at all, you cannot cherry pick to suit your self.

This is about Toireasa Ferris and you seem to be attempting to go off topic. This is a local topic for me and for many people who will be wondering whether or not to put a number next to Toireasa Ferris name next Friday, not an international one being played out by the worlds super powers.

As partyguiness said..

Liam Byrne wrote:

Again, I've posted that BOTH are equally "condemnable", and I'd expect anyone that I vote for to condemn both.

so why does the media not expect the Irish government to condemn it? is it because most irish don't give a sh|t about it? probably..

But again, you've chosen to ignore that in order to keep open a loophole on which you can tackle Black Briar while not facing the truth -

That neutrals don't take sides when viewing atrocities.
That neutrals don't allow one side to claim "accidents" and that despicable phrase "collateral damage" without giving the other side the benefit of the doubt.

Bollocks Liam, Ireland is not neutral.Ireland is clearly on the side of the US, there is no question.

SO many times we've heard the IRA sympathisers say "there was a war on"; while I don't agree that there was a war on in Adare (and if I want to contribute to a "cause", I'll do so - I don't appreciate scum trying to rob my money from a bank-transit

You mean like FF have done recently? they rob people with a smile on camera...lets not go off topic though, just think about it..

solice

Martyr wrote: »

Either you condemn all murders or none at all, you cannot cherry pick to suit your self.

Exactly!!!

It would seem that Sinn Fein are among the biggest hypocrites, they continually get up on their high horse about the injustices being inflicted on the people in the nationalist community in the North by the UK govt but when it comes to defending the unarmed gardai in small country towns in they tend to look the other way.

I couldnt have put it better than you Martyr

Martyr wrote: »

Either you condemn all murders or none at all, you cannot cherry pick to suit your self.

Martyr

Deleted User wrote:

yeah but your the one in 10..I'm talking about the overwhelming democratic majority like.

really? i thought most decent Irish people would value any life, not just a member of the Gardai, but there you go..obviously not.

if we're doing something internationally illegal why haven't the UN put sanctions on us?
Reason is,they can't because a democratically elected government has the legal authority to approve the transit.

Reason is the UN are a joke.It only works when the US wants it to.

It looks like you are going on with the fallacy of "wah wah look over there so as the IRA can be left alone with it's littler operation over here".

Nope, just exposing the hypocrisy, Black Briar

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

Bollocks Liam, Ireland is not neutral.Ireland is clearly on the side of the US, there is no question.

I was talking about ME, PERSONALLY. I am NEUTRAL. So less of the "bollocks", please (although maybe I should have asked that earlier).

Martyr wrote: »

You mean like FF have done recently? they rob people with a smile on camera...lets not go off topic though, just think about it..

Yup, I've thought about it, even before you tried to throw in another red herring.....yet ANOTHER "but look what they're doing over there" load of bull****.

If you want to go back a few pages and see what I said then, fire away. It was along the lines of "that's why they're not getting my vote either, but at least they didn't murder anyone".

Funny you should mention cameras, though......robbing people with a smile on camera is bad, but smiling to a camera in the company of cop-killers while campaigning for their release is worse.

Of course I condemn all murders martyr unlike Ms Ferris.
Keep deflecting,it's bouncing right back at ya..

Martyr

i'm not asking you to condemn it, but i would expect you to be as passionate about the current FF government condemning murders in Iraq and Afghanistan...although you're not, which is what i would call hypocrisy.

solice

Martyr wrote: »

i'm not asking you to condemn it, but i would expect you to be as passionate about the current FF government condemning murders in Iraq and Afghanistan...although you're not, which is what i would call hypocrisy.

wildly off topic!

Martyr

My god, its impossible..no wonder it took 30 years of violence to get power sharing :P

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

Either you condemn all murders or none at all, you cannot cherry pick to suit your self.

Solice beat me to it, but maybe we've made some progress if a Sinn-Feiner is making statements like the above.

Now if only we could get Ferris and her buddies to have the same mindset.

By the way, Martyr, if you'd stop deflecting and pointing fingers for a second, here's a chance to gain at least some credibility (even if it is my 4th time asking):

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In my book, both [Iraq invasion & Jerry McCabe] are despicable and should be condemned; what's your view of both ?

Stop asking other people extra questions and answer the above yourself, please.

Martyr

Martyr wrote: »

i'm not asking you to condemn it, but i would expect you to be as passionate about the current FF government condemning murders in Iraq and Afghanistan...although you're not, which is what i would call hypocrisy.

They can only do what their electorate expect of them.
They haven't had and don't have any control over those wars either.

I'm guessing their logic in allowing US planes transit is money and votes.

On the other hand theres no more than about 10% of votes available when you condone Gardaí's deaths.
The rest of us are warey.

That might clear up after another generation or two.
It usually does.

There aren't many people people watching the tudors in the UK for instance that refuse to vote tory on account of what went on back then.
Time.

Now is not the time though.

Martyr

Solice beat me to it, but maybe we've made some progress if a Sinn-Feiner is making statements like the above.

Now if only we could get Ferris and her buddies to have the same mindset.

LOL

This: Either you condemn all murders or none at all, you cannot cherry pick to suit your self.

was actually directed at you lot who want Ferris to condemn the murder of Jerry McCabe.

Why not expect FF to condemn murders in Iraq too, why not I ask?

thats all i'm arguing.

Stop asking other people extra questions and answer the above yourself, please.

I thought it was obvious..
Both are wrong, of course.

Why not expect FF to condemn murders taking place in Iraq?
Whether you like it or not, we are (ireland) partly responsible and it is relevant to this Ferris story IMO.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

They can only do what their electorate expect of them.

Black Briar, with the greatest of respect, that's not strictly true; that might be a way to stay in power, doing the bare minimum expected, but it's not good government and planning.

But without getting into that, let's not give the Martyr a reason to claim he's living up to his self-chosen name.

He's challenged you earlier to view all murders equally, and quizzed you about the Iraq ones while stating that he thought Iraq was despicable.

Now we should let him combine those 2 statements and back them up by answering the question that I posed before we comment further or rise to any more deflection bait.

Liam Byrne

Martyr wrote: »

Why not expect FF to condemn murders in Iraq too, why not I ask?

Ah, FFS.....I've REPEATEDLY said that I do. What part of that have you missed, or chosen to ignore ?

Martyr wrote: »

I thought it was obvious..
Both are wrong, of course.

"Both are wrong" falls short of condemning them.

Martyr wrote: »

Whether you like it or not, we are (ireland) partly responsible and it is relevant to this Ferris story IMO.

VERY loosely, in that it is easy for someone who's not asked a question to gloss over it. If you're asked, you should answer.

So; should the media be asking FF ? Yes. Did they ? No.

So did FF show contempt for the views of the electorate by refusing ? No.

Did Ferris ? Yes.